Persist SLAs

[Yogibear41]

Is there anyway to apply the Persistent Spell feat to Spell Like Abilities. For example say I have a buff spell available to me as a racial spell like ability, or a spell like ability from a class etc. Is there a way I can have it persisted to last 24 hours.

[Afghanistan]

The 3rd level Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun Page 61) class feature should accomplish exactly what you are looking to do with your spell-like abilities.

[pabelfly]

Wait, I don't see anything about metamagic working on spell-like abilities. Can I ask for an explanation how that works?

[Kayblis]

SLAs work just like spells. The 3rd level Incantatrix ability states you can add a metamagic feat to any spell effect that is already in place. So if you activate Enlarge Person as a SLA, it can be persisted just like an Enlarge Person spell cast on the same target.

[Tenavril]

I don't agree.

There are separate Meta-Spell-like Ability feats, like Quicken Spell-like Ability and Empower Spell-like Ability

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a

"A spell-like ability is not subject to metamagic. For many of the same reasons a spell-like ability cannot be countered, it also cannot be modified through metamagic in any way. Some creatures have special feats that allow them to duplicate the effects of metamagic on their spell-like abilities (such as the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat). It's also possible for a creature to have a spell-like ability that duplicates spells already altered by metamagic. For example, the archmage prestige class allows a character to make a spell modified by metamagic into a spell-like ability."

[Thurbane]

I don't agree.

There are separate Meta-Spell-like Ability feats, like Quicken Spell-like Ability and Empower Spell-like Ability

I second this. Metamagic only applies to SLAs when specifically called out as doing so, such as the Sudden Metamagic feats in CArc.

AFAIK there is no general rule that metamagic can apply to SLAs that mimic spells. I'd be very interested to see a citation for this, if there is one (discounting the text under Sudden Metamagic feats - I believe that's a specific case, not a general rule that any metamagic that doesn't increase level can be applied to SLAs; otherwise all the LA +0 metamagic feats like Invisible Spell could be put on SLAs).

[Aotrs Commander]

I second this. Metamagic only applies to SLAs when specifically called out as doing so, such as the Sudden Metamagic feats in CArc.

AFAIK there is no general rule that metamagic can apply to SLAs that mimic spells. I'd be very interested to see a citation for this, if there is one (discounting the text under Sudden Metamagic feats - I believe that's a specific case, not a general rule that any metamagic that doesn't increase level can be applied to SLAs; otherwise all the LA +0 metamagic feats like Invisible Spell could be put on SLAs).

Wai, Suddens apply to SLAs?

It doesn't say that in the feat description... Oh, wait, no, there, I see it, hidden in the blurb on invocations and SLAs at start of the feats section (dumb place to it...) Neat. Warlocks will be pleased...

*Immediately goes and changes wording on feats in 3.Aotrs to read "or SLA"*

Well, if nothing else this massive rules thing I'm on is learning me a whole host of rules that I'd apparently completely forgotten...

*tips helmet*



On topic, I concur with Thurbane - the existance of the MetaSLA feats (in the same book as the Suddens, actually) says that you can't use regular metamagic on SLAs - it explictly point out in that aforementioned section that the reason Suddens work with SLAs is because they don't change the level of the spell. I suppose you could make a ruling that a metamagic feat that doesn't increase the level of the spell could be used on an SLA... (Hmm, not a bad idea to consider actually...) But that won't help you get persist spell, not unless you have a DM that is willing to allow you to stack metamagic reducers (and that's one thing I WON'T allow myself!) of a massive number of spells.



Though, I suppose you could always beg your DM to make an appropriate feats for Persist Spell-Like ability, though it would mean you'd have to be quite high level before you could Persist anything of worth; comparing Quicken SLA and Empower/Maximis SLA, verses the increased spell slots, you'd probably be looking at only 4th (maybe 5th) level spells at 20th.

[Afghanistan]

I don't agree.

I second this.

The class feature states "Spell Effects", specifically "persistent spell effects", which includes spells and spell-like abilities. So yes, you can apply an Extend, Persistent, Maximize, Heighten, or any other metamagic so long as the target is a "spell effect".

[Aotrs Commander]

The class feature states "Spell Effects", specifically "persistent spell effects", which includes spells and spell-like abilities. So yes, you can apply an Extend, Persistent, Maximize, Heighten, or any other metamagic so long as the target is a "spell effect".

Ah, gentleman and/or ladies, some crossed wires, I think...

Looking at that class ability, the wording (which is not great, I'll grant you) that you can apply it to any active spell effect - what I suspect they mean by "persistent effect" is "active spell effect with a duration," as if it isn't that, what it actually means in unclear. One feels it is unlikely to even mean "spell to which Persistent Spell has been applied." Wherein an active SPA and an active spell are the same thing (else it'd be an Su ability you couldn't, for example, dispel). (Actually, there's a good arguement you could apply it to powers as well with magic-psioics transparency.) So, yeah, really the same reasoning as the suddens, if we follow it through - the Incantatrix isn't casting a metamagic'd spell with spellslots, he's boosting an already cast spell with a nonspell class feature (3+Int times per day) that's "paying" the extra slot cost (along with the Spellcraft check of DC 18 + 3 x modifed spell level).

You cannot apply a metamagic feat to an SLA like you would a spell normally, I thik we're all on agreement on that, but that does not appear to be what the incanatrix is actually doing.

(Which is essentially the magical equivilent of the engineer turning up with his tool box and suping up your vehicle or something.)

[Elves]

it explicitly points out in that aforementioned section that the reason Suddens work with SLAs is because they don't change the level of the spell.

If that's the only reason then why can't you use metamagic rods with SLAs? Their claim there seems a little inconsistent.

[Tenavril]

Spell effects are not the same thing that SLA effects.

[Aotrs Commander]

If that's the only reason then why can't you use metamagic rods with SLAs? Their claim there seems a little inconsistent.

Uhhh...

I can't SEE anything in the SRD (or on checking, the metamagic rods in Complete Arcane) that explictly forbids you using metamagic rods on SLAs text doesn't mention them either way, so... I don't... know?

Unless you want to explictly say "spells but it doesn't say spell-like abilities so no?"

I mean to be fair, I'd have said not before today, because I was under the impression that you couldn't use ANY metamagic feats on SLAs, period, but if you explictly can use some because of a specific reason (i.e. no spell slots), I dobn't see why that reason can't be applied to other things for the same reason.

[ben-zayb]

Pretty sure the Phoenix from one of the Monster Manuals has an ability that allows it to apply its metamagic feats to its SLAs.

That might be the most cut and dry option.

[Aotrs Commander]

Pretty sure the Phoenix from one of the Monster Manuals has an ability that allows it to apply its metamagic feats to its SLAs.

That might be the most cut and dry option.

Well (on checking), it is, MM2, which is 3.0 (predating Complete Arcane - I'm afraid I have no idea if stuff like Quicken SLA existed in 3.0, since I can't see it in the 3.0 SRD and I long-since got rid of the books)

It's a unique ability Spell-Like Metamagic which explictly allows it to apply its own metamagic feats to its SLAs as full-round action - Implied, But Not Stated that it doesn't increase the spell levels or anything and effectively allows the Phoenix to apply an unlimited amount of Sudden [metamagic] for every metamagic feat it knows.

So the most you can say, I think is that the implication that in 3.0 you can't use Metamagic on SLAs unless expressly permitted (which agrees with 3.5 Complete Arcane), but doesn't say anything necessarily either way about metamagic rods (which I don't think existed in 3.0...?)

So... Not that cut and dried, I fear.

I think this is one of those areas where you could get into a long, long arguement about whether SLAs and spells are different things1 and thus whether because the rods only say "spell" and not "SLA" you couldn't use metamagic rods on them, so maybe a strict interpretation of RAW says "it's doesn't expressly permit it, so no," but it is open to, I think the individual DM.

(Me, I'd allow it, but I have - since this thread and this morning - specifically okay'd non-slot-level increasing metamagic for SLAs.)



1I happen to disagree with Tenavril, the only difference between spells and SLAs is the manner in which they are cast, once that's done, the effects identical; but I'm not going to hold a long debate on it.

[Tenavril]

All is written this :
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a

There is no debate.

[Elves]

Incantatrix Metamagic Effect shouldn't really work because it involves modified spell level:


To use this ability, the incantatrix must make a successful Spellcraft check (DC 18 + [3*modified spell level]. "Modified spell level" is the level of the spell slot that the spell would occupy if it were prepared with the metamagic feat applied.

Though of course you could also rule that since an SLA's spell level can't be modified, SLAs are even easier to use with this ability than spells...

[Thurbane]

Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don’t require modified spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or invocations as they do with spells (though because spell-like abilities don’t have verbal or somatic components, Sudden Silent Spell doesn’t apply and Sudden Still Spell applies only to invocations).

Other Metamagic Feats: Except as noted above, metamagic feats can’t generally be used to modify spell-like abilities or invocations.

Benefit
The deity chooses one metamagic feat. As a free action, the deity can apply the selected feat to the spells from any one spellcasting class the deity has or to its spell-like abilities. A spell altered by the use of this ability does not use up a higher-level slot.
Notes
The deity must obey all the limitations normally associated with the metamagic feat. Any metamagic feat selected cannot have a level requirement of 21st or higher. Feats that depend on making the spell’s level higher, such as Heighten Spell, do not work with this ability. A deity can have this ability multiple times, choosing a metamagic feat and either a spellcasting class or spell-like abilities to which the ability will apply each time.

So there does seem to be some rules support for being able to apply certain metamgic feats to SLAs. IMHO, though, any that aren't specifically called out as working would require DM approval, regardless of whether they modify spell level or not. YMMV.

WoTC really could have been clearer with the rules citations in Complete Arcane: is the no level modifier rule a general rule or not?

[Yogibear41]

Not to Muddle the Mixture, but SLAs do specifically have levels, its used to calculate their save DC.

[Elves]

True. My bad. So that puts us back in the uncertainty zone.

Reading the "Other Metamagic Feats" bit on CArc page 72 as simply overruling what was said right in the paragraph prior to it would explain being unable to use SLAs with rods, but does create a spastic contradiction.