Divine soul sorcerer or celestial warlock

[Jaryn]

Hello all! I was hoping to pick your brains regarding how these two characters play and feel.

I would like to play an arcane caster with the ability to heal a bit, hence why I'm looking at these two classes. The idea is to single class, so no combining the two 🙂

We tend to have relatively small groups of adventurers, and I'm not sure what others are making yet - thought I'd create the character I'd like to play rather than fill in gaps in a party for a change!

So, what are the differences between these two, and their strengths and weaknesses? I've not seen either in action.

EDIT: For clarity, it's not that I'm adverse to multi-classing, it's that this campaign is going to be single class only.

[Jerrykhor]

Hello all! I was hoping to pick your brains regarding how these two characters play and feel.

I would like to play an arcane caster with the ability to heal a bit, hence why I'm looking at these two classes. The idea is to single class, so no combining the two 🙂

We tend to have relatively small groups of adventurers, and I'm not sure what others are making yet - thought I'd create the character I'd like to play rather than fill in gaps in a party for a change!

So, what are the differences between these two, and their strengths and weaknesses? I've not seen either in action.

The deal breaker for me was the fact that Sorcerer can pick from the entire Cleric spell list, while warlock cannot.

A celestial warlock only have the few extra cleric spells to choose from, but the warlock spell list itself is more on the 'dark' side. Also, warlock spell casting is very limited without short rests.

[Dork_Forge]

The Warlock is more of a dedicated healer of the two subclasses, and you can cast spells without worrying about maybe needing to pop a heal in an emergancy, it also makes the better combat healer as Healing Light doesn't interfere with what you want to do the majority of the time. Sorcerer is nice for all the Cleric spells, twinning and the full caster slots. Favored by the Gods is a nice oh **** button or if you just really want to hit the BBEG.

You can't really go wrong either way here imo (and multiclassing them together would be great but you've ruled that out), so it comes down to what have you played and what your table is like. If you're unfamiliar with the Warlock and/or short rests aren't frequent/reliable then it can basically feel very boring as you cantrip spam/melee.

Depending what level you start and what level you play to I will say that I prefer the higher level features of Celestial over Divine Soul.

[Sindal]

Divine sorcerer is more flexible into embracing your support side. You get the full cleric list and you get some perks that help you help while still giving you access to the rest of your sorc spells like haste and fireball etc

A warlock will give you "blaster, with a constant stream of raw healing" feel. Though to be fair, since you get sacred flame free and a later perk that increases the damage, you could use your invocations on things other than boosting your eldrich blast powers and focus more on support sort of powers. If anything you could atleast have ritual casting where sorcerors won't be able to.

Group support output sorcerers will carry you more. A celestial will have 'supportive quirks' that weave naturally into their cantrip shooting. Divine soul sorcerers as better "response units" when build for it while warlocks can be a bit samey. Ite also worth noting that sorcs have proficiency in constitiation saving *throws, which lete them hold onto their concentration for buffs a bit better.

Both can work quite well. Warlock will likely be simpler becuase you won't have the grand cleric spell list to sift through and weight against your sorc spells but it will depend on your short rest economy.

The kind of stuff you can get away with on a sorc prolonging buffs and twining haste for support can be fantastic. Even the humble bless can be a life saver.

I'd say it boils down to if you want to support by healing or support by enhancing. Both of them can do it, but the warlock does the former with more ease while the sorc gets all the cleric buffs like aid or death ward along with their sorc spells to satisfy the latter. Sorcs will be able to have a little mor control over their slots too with their sorcerer points

[Jaryn]

The sorcerer certainly has access to a lot more spell options. Off the top of my head, things that look interesting include mass healing spells, subtle social spells, fireball and haste, as well as powerful things like disintegrate and reverse gravity. Not to mention wish, should I ever get there!

However, the warlock seems to offer consistency via eldritch blast, green flame blade and healing light, along with quite a lot of utility via at will detect magic, mask of many faces, invisibility and witch sight. I wouldn't be taking hex or any of the weird dark spells though, as they don't really fit what I have in mind. Still a good few options though.

Darnit - it's like they're both good or something!

In terms of adventuring day, I suspect it will be a couple of encounters, short rest, couple of encounters, short rest, couple of encounters, long rest. Roughly.

[HiveStriker]

Hello all! I was hoping to pick your brains regarding how these two characters play and feel.

I would like to play an arcane caster with the ability to heal a bit, hence why I'm looking at these two classes. The idea is to single class, so no combining the two 🙂

We tend to have relatively small groups of adventurers, and I'm not sure what others are making yet - thought I'd create the character I'd like to play rather than fill in gaps in a party for a change!

So, what are the differences between these two, and their strengths and weaknesses? I've not seen either in action.
That is the deal-closer to me in favor of Warlock.
But first, question: do you prefer "being just a healer / support, but be a beast at it"?
Then go Sorcerer, pick Extend and Subtle, learn Healing Words, Aid, Mage Armor, Enhance Ability, Invisibility, Fly, Polymorph, mixed up with a few friendly control spells like Suggestion, Slow or Spirit Guardians.
Possibly grab Magic Initiate just to get Eldricht Blast, whatever happens pick Ritual Caster with any list that complement party the best.
Your offense will come essentially from cantrips.
You will use the same handful of spells, but between the "day-long free prebuff" (Extend Aid/Mage Armor/Death Ward etc), the "silent onpoint buff" (Subtle Enhance Ability / Invisibility), the creativity from Polymorph/Suggestion, and the burst nova when needed with Dodging Spirit Guardians, you'll certainly rely on your team for many situations, but they will know they can rely on you for some others.

Otherwise? Go Warlock, pick Tome pact, grab (in that order preferably) Repelling Blast, , Tome of Rituals (great utility as long as DM williing to provide chances to learn, learn Find Familiar immediately), Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, Agonizing Blast.
Optional: Devil's Sight (versatile) or Beast Speech (same) to learn before level 5 if you think it's useful, or learn them then swap them for something else later. After all, you can do that. :)
For free cantrips, Guidance, Mold Earth, Thorns Whip (IF DM allows creativity, otherwise completely superceded by Grasp of Hadar) or whatever utility you fancy would be my suggestions.
For spells, Invisibility for out-of-fight full-party adventuring, Comprehend Languages (write as ritual then swap), Suggestion (great), Darkness possibly (sure if Devil's Sight), Shatter (you do want at least one damage spell), Hypnotic Pattern or Summon Lesser Demons (bread and butter from level 5 onwards, beware of collaterals though XD)
You'll have an impressive battlefield versatility thanks to the control effects tacked on Eldricht Blast or occasionally alternative cantrips (learn Booming Blade possibly if you want to play with Shadow Blade, otherwise simply pick cantrip that have an interesting side-effect like Vicious Mockery).
In addition to having no-spell healing, a great continuous damage spell with Flaming Sphere (synergyzing to the max with aforementioned push/pull from EB), and soon after a few control spells.
You'll have an outstanding adventuring utility as you progress as long as party is 4 members max (perma-Invisibility, would you fancy? perma-comprehension of all enemy creatures with Comprehend Languages, isn't that great? Spying with familiar or gathering resources / traveling with persuaded animals, great no? Rituals like Phantom Steed, Water Breathing, Leomund's Tiny Hut, nothing to put aside right?).
If you like the spying aspect, grab Observant and/or Keen Mind feats. Nobody will surpass you.

[Keravath]

How about both? :) ... Divine soul sorcerer X/ Celestial warlock 2 or 3 :) ... covers all the bases.

As far as play, warlocks and sorcerers tend to play completely differently in my experience especially as spell casters since you are looking at 2 short rest slots until level 11 for the warlock. On the other hand, the level 5 sorcerer has 2 3rd, 3 2nd and 4 first plus 5 sorcery points for either meta magic or additional spell slots. The 5th level warlock could have more 3rd level slots if they get enough short rests but it depends on how your adventuring day typically runs.

By level 9, the sorcerer has 1 5th, 3 4th-3rd-2nd, 4 first and 9 sorcery points. The warlock has 2 5th level slots. However, with the choice of spells available the sorcerer can afford to drop 3 fireballs in a tough fight and still have lots in reserve while the warlock runs out after 2 spells ... which includes utility/damage/defence. Even mirror image would cost a 5th level spell slot.

I find that in practice, the limited spell slots for a warlock is a big factor. A sorcerer can work around this by managing resources but holding enough in reserve for the next fight.

Defensively, the best combination is a divine soul sorcerer with 2 levels of hexblade warlock but if you want extra healing then celestial also works and is pretty thematic.

[HiveStriker]

How about both? :) ... Divine soul sorcerer X/ Celestial warlock 2 or 3 :) ... covers all the bases.

Sometimes it's useful to read not only the title, but also the actual opening post. XD


I would like to play an arcane caster with the ability to heal a bit, hence why I'm looking at these two classes. The idea is to single class, so no combining the two 🙂


With that said, I agree that mixing both can be a sweet long-term plan for a level 12+ character.

[micahaphone]

In my experience as a warlock, you'll be an archer (consistent ranged damage) who can toss out a big concentration spell or other ongoing effect at the beginning of a fight, and hold onto your second spell slot as an "oh ****" option. Armor of agathys, Fear, Revivify, etc. With celestial, you'll also have bonus action spot healing to get allies back on their feet.

If no one else in your party has ritual casting, Tome warlock could be nice.

Would you be okay with frequently casting cantrips? Even if your group is short resting after every fight, spell slots can still feel quite limited.

[sophontteks]

I made a thread about divine souls a ways back, and they appeared much stronger in theory then in practice. The truth is that adding another spell list to a class that only gets 2+1/lvl spell known doesn't amount to much. You'll only be using a few cleric spells and they will come at the cost of your best arcane spells.

The divine soul is masquarading as a flexible caster, but, just like all sorcerers, they are extremely specialized and focus on maximizing just a few spells. This doesn't mean they are bad, but they are more difficult then they appear. Picking so few spells from 2 spell lists is a daunting task.

[rbstr]

The Celestial Warlock might be my choice. The healing light pool is fantastic.
You can hang back and be a blaster/healer with iether tome or chain pact.
You can be a melee tank. If you take the Chain Pact and the invocation you can maximize the healing light on yourself. This works pretty well with Green Flame Blade.

Your spell list doesn't pick up a ton of Cleric flavor, though, if that's what you want. What they do get is pretty good and covers the non-hp healing aspect very well (cure wounds is probably not a good pick given your healing pool)

Regardless, don't let the 6th-level fire/radiant damage buff feature juke you. Your best ranged cantrip is still eldritch blast with agonizing blast. Sacred Flame being neat vs some targets. Don't get cute and take firebolt unless you just really want to avoid taking any EB invocations.

Divine Soul will need to specialize. If you want to blast, it may be the option - empower can really make a blasting spell or two much more efficient. Its also the pick to do buffing. Celestial can eventually give the party a lot of THP but there's a lot of great cleric stuff.
You'll have to be pretty selective about your metamagic and spell picks to get the most out of it though.

[Jaryn]

You can be a melee tank.

How do you manage that as a warlock? I can see doing reasonable damage in melee through green flame blade, but I would have thought that then an opponent would look at your light armour/mage armour and squish you!

I definitely don't want to be a pure support character - a bit of healing would be good, but I'd like to hold my own in terms of cool moments via blasting and control as well.

[rbstr]

Mostly because you can access massive self-healing via the chain familiar and the invocation (gift of the ever living ones? not sure).

Warlock also has some THP options via false life and Armor of Agathys in addition to Celestial getting that THP feature and the "just kidding I didn't die" feature eventually.

[HiveStriker]

How do you manage that as a warlock? I can see doing reasonable damage in melee through green flame blade, but I would have thought that then an opponent would look at your light armour/mage armour and squish you!

I definitely don't want to be a pure support character - a bit of healing would be good, but I'd like to hold my own in terms of cool moments via blasting and control as well.


Mostly because you can access massive self-healing via the chain familiar and the invocation (gift of the ever living ones? not sure).

Warlock also has some THP options via false life and Armor of Agathys in addition to Celestial getting that THP feature and the "just kidding I didn't die" feature eventually.
This, although I disagree that it would be enough. It's clearly not imo. "just good enough" AC and no way to avoid attacks (including criticals) means you cannot pretend to be a meatbag (also, "being a tank" is much more than just "being resilient" but that's another topic).
Not, at least, if you pretend to play a support guy.
- THP is puny at higher level: it makes a big difference in how much healing you spend over the day, but in any given fight it just amounts to "8 THP at start" which quickly gets ridiculous.
- Armor of Agathys is a nice deterrent but really useful once you can upcast it at 3rd level min, and only works in melee: it's really rare you'd fight only melee enemies, and only melee enemies stupid enough to continue attacking in melee when they see friends getting hurt doing it: they would take distance and use thrown weapons as long as they fear effect still active, or simply switch targets.
- Cure Wounds is a crazy expensive way to heal yourself considering as a Warlock you only have 2 slots per rest for a long time, and there are just so many great spells to help party with instead.
- So basically it's all about using your LONG-REST pool, ON YOU.

Of course if all you want is to support yourself then yeah it's probably viable. ^^

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned Ludic Savant's "Celestial Generalist" build. It's an excellent example of what a Celestial TomeLock is capable of.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23546332&postcount=37

If you can come up with a Divine Sorcerer as capable as this, play it.

[Corpus]

How do you manage that as a warlock? I can see doing reasonable damage in melee through green flame blade, but I would have thought that then an opponent would look at your light armour/mage armour and squish you!

I definitely don't want to be a pure support character - a bit of healing would be good, but I'd like to hold my own in terms of cool moments via blasting and control as well.

If Variant Human is available, you can grab Moderately Armored feat at 1st (Medium Armor and Shield).

Take Green Flame blade Cantrip and later with Pact of Tomb you could add Shillelagh depending how melee you wanted to go.

If you want to theme around Fire, also take Fire Bolt. If you prefer diversity add Eldritch Blast.

You can now Blast, Tank, and Heal with cantrips and class abilities depending on the situation required. This still leaves you your spells, invocations, skills, and rituals for both in and out of combat situations.

[Chugger]

Consdier Sorlock instead. Divine Soul lvl 1, then 2 lvls hexblade (or celestial if you don't want great AC) - then back to div soul til 20. W/ hex you get nice armor and shield, hex spell, curse, agonizing blast and one other invo.

You can quicken cast EB and really pump out damage. Or you can cast sor spells. Or you can upcast Armor of Agathys - and quicken cast blade ward on yourself to keep the A o A up longer, if you are getting attacked a lot.

AC 18, please you can shield, is great. Oh, and w/ divine soul you can take some heal spells and heal - but 5e tends to reward offense over heals.

[Jaryn]

Consdier Sorlock instead. Divine Soul lvl 1, then 2 lvls hexblade (or celestial if you don't want great AC) - then back to div soul til 20. W/ hex you get nice armor and shield, hex spell, curse, agonizing blast and one other invo.

Sorry, don't think I was particularly clear in my first pay so have edited! I'm afraid it's single class all the way this time.

The warlock does seem to be a little more robust than the sorcerer, which I suspect will be useful in a smaller group at low level. Having said that, I like the idea of the character using a staff, which instinctively feels a bit silly with a shield. Would it be worth taking a v human and spending a great just for the medium armour?

[JakOfAllTirades]

Sorry, don't think I was particularly clear in my first pay so have edited! I'm afraid it's single class all the way this time.

The warlock does seem to be a little more robust than the sorcerer, which I suspect will be useful in a smaller group at low level. Having said that, I like the idea of the character using a staff, which instinctively feels a bit silly with a shield. Would it be worth taking a v human and spending a great just for the medium armour?

The Moderately Armored Feat gives you Medium Armor, Shields, and a +1 DEX. So if you have an odd DEX score it's definitely worth it.

[HiveStriker]

The Moderately Armored Feat gives you Medium Armor, Shields, and a +1 DEX. So if you have an odd DEX score it's definitely worth it.
@OP I'll heartily +1 this. If you want to get good enough armor to wade into the frontlines, it's definitely worth.
Pay attention to the somatic component if you want to use quarterstaff and shield at the same time.
I'd rather use a throwable weapon or simply cantrips and wield a shield but hey to each his/her own way of fun ;)

[jaappleton]

Divine Soul. No question.

It makes spell selection even more difficult, but with every decision you make, just remember one thing:

How will this interact with my Metamagic selection?

That should make things easier.

[Doug Lampert]

The deal breaker for me was the fact that Sorcerer can pick from the entire Cleric spell list, while warlock cannot.

A celestial warlock only have the few extra cleric spells to choose from, but the warlock spell list itself is more on the 'dark' side. Also, warlock spell casting is very limited without short rests.

He'll be far more likely to get short rests than most short rest dependent classes. Because if the party's only healer says: "We can short rest, or you can adventure injured", then the party short rests.

[Rukelnikov]

He'll be far more likely to get short rests than most short rest dependent classes. Because if the party's only healer says: "We can short rest, or you can adventure injured", then the party short rests.

Oom

OOM

WHY DID YOU PULL!?!??!?!

[Chugger]

Sorry, don't think I was particularly clear in my first pay so have edited! I'm afraid it's single class all the way this time.

The warlock does seem to be a little more robust than the sorcerer, which I suspect will be useful in a smaller group at low level. Having said that, I like the idea of the character using a staff, which instinctively feels a bit silly with a shield. Would it be worth taking a v human and spending a great just for the medium armour?

I'd not go Celestial then, unless you can count on tons of short rests and short fights. Just finished a hard campaign in a hc where dm threw very challenging fights at us - long fights - and I hated being a pure warlock. Why?

I felt so constrained by limited slots - only 2 per fight til lvl 11 (no pearl of power, rod of pc, or ring of s s dropped). At least the DM let me cheese hex sometimes. In the morning upon waking I'd hex and kill a slug or bug - and have an 8 hr version of hex going. While party eats breakfast n such, I'm short resting to get slot back. At least this cheese made being a lock bearable, so I could transfer hex in first fight and then be able to cast 2 spells.

Two non conc spells. We need to fly. Yay I can fly me and several other chars w/ high lvl slot, but there goes hex. I need to shield now or get hit by a mummy and possibly get mummy rot - do I shield? If I do there goes my other slot, cuz I cast fly earlier w/ no rest between.

At least as a hexblade (blaster, not meleer) I had curse to fall back on, if I lost hex - sometimes lost hex to missing a concentration dc.

As a Celest if you enter a fight w/ hex burning and 2 slots, your EB's hit okay. And you hold your slots to heal most likely. I guess what makes a celest playable is your pool of dsix heals, which you can fall back on - and if the encounter screams out "cast hypnotic pattern here", you do it. You probably want to keep one slot in reserve, though.

A divine soul sorc can upcast Aid on the party. Can firebolt if the fight is an easy one - can twin Haste if the fight needs it - can Shield easily if mummy hits him (with mage armor and at least 14 dex his ac isn't terrible - add shield you get 20 ac). If a dragon breathes on party he can Absorb Elements for half damage. If a caster tries to fireball the party he can counterspell. But the warlock can counterspell. Well, on the next round the caster tries to fireball again and the lock is out of slots now - or afraid to burn his last slot. The sorc just counterspells. The sorc converts some sp and creates a new slot.

With meta magic, the sorc can do some pretty amazing things. Did the sorc just miss a ST on the dis. ray from a beholder? A div sorc can add 2d4 to that number, now he passes.

I guess it boils down to which style of play fits your personality. The sorc is so so SO much more flexible. If you can take the constraints and plan things out and accept that you must carefully pick and choose when and what to cast, you can make celest lock work. Good luck.

[HiveStriker]

I'd not go Celestial then, unless you can count on tons of short rests and short fights. Just finished a hard campaign in a hc where dm threw very challenging fights at us - long fights - and I hated being a pure warlock. Why?

I felt so constrained by limited slots - only 2 per fight til lvl 11 (no pearl of power, rod of pc, or ring of s s dropped). At least the DM let me cheese hex sometimes. In the morning upon waking I'd hex and kill a slug or bug - and have an 8 hr version of hex going. While party eats breakfast n such, I'm short resting to get slot back. At least this cheese made being a lock bearable, so I could transfer hex in first fight and then be able to cast 2 spells.

Two non conc spells. We need to fly. Yay I can fly me and several other chars w/ high lvl slot, but there goes hex. I need to shield now or get hit by a mummy and possibly get mummy rot - do I shield? If I do there goes my other slot, cuz I cast fly earlier w/ no rest between.

At least as a hexblade (blaster, not meleer) I had curse to fall back on, if I lost hex - sometimes lost hex to missing a concentration dc.

As a Celest if you enter a fight w/ hex burning and 2 slots, your EB's hit okay. And you hold your slots to heal most likely. I guess what makes a celest playable is your pool of dsix heals, which you can fall back on - and if the encounter screams out "cast hypnotic pattern here", you do it. You probably want to keep one slot in reserve, though.

A divine soul sorc can upcast Aid on the party. Can firebolt if the fight is an easy one - can twin Haste if the fight needs it - can Shield easily if mummy hits him (with mage armor and at least 14 dex his ac isn't terrible - add shield you get 20 ac). If a dragon breathes on party he can Absorb Elements for half damage. If a caster tries to fireball the party he can counterspell. But the warlock can counterspell. Well, on the next round the caster tries to fireball again and the lock is out of slots now - or afraid to burn his last slot. The sorc just counterspells. The sorc converts some sp and creates a new slot.

With meta magic, the sorc can do some pretty amazing things. Did the sorc just miss a ST on the dis. ray from a beholder? A div sorc can add 2d4 to that number, now he passes.

I guess it boils down to which style of play fits your personality. The sorc is so so SO much more flexible. If you can take the constraints and plan things out and accept that you must carefully pick and choose when and what to cast, you can make celest lock work. Good luck.
I understand your pain but i'm not sure comparison/feedback is fair to OP's goals here.

First, OP wants to support, so Hex is by far not a given.
He should do far enough with Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar to help indirectly providing damage.

Second, unless DM is ruling rests strangely, as well as concentration, there is nothing preventing the party from benefitting a perma-Invisibility or perma-Fly (well, short party ^^) because they can travel as slow as required to not being doing a strenuous activity, or you could have a pal simply carry the Warlock so he can rest while party is traveling at regular pace.

Third, while I'm myself one of the heaviest supporters of Extend for a Divine Sorcerer because of all spells that really benefit it, Aid itself is like Armor of Agathys: it starts making a real difference only when upcast at least as a level 4 spell, with sweet point being 5th / 6th imx.

Fourth, anyone should usually not try and burn more than one big spell per fight. Of course, if you miss, and you really needed the spell to land, you'll try again next round. That's the situations in which being a Warlock hurts. Fortunately, Warlock although having a choice of spells less interesting (imo at least) than Sorcerer still has enough options of spells that upscale well and either don't rely on saves (buffs) or are AOE so you're sure to at least affect some enemies.

Fifth, IF obviously DM is playing ball or player has caster friends, Warlock actually gets much more spellcasting than Sorcerer when picking Tome. Many rituals are simply always useful to prepare or avoid ambushes, or set a safe place, or help travel/scout/stealth, and your caster pals will be delighted you take that plate off them, because except for Wizards that can simply read their books they need to learn or at least prepare them.
On that note, there are also several invocations that can greatly ease party life and spare other people's slots in the long run, like perma Detect Magic or (very much underrated) Speak with Animals.

So, yeah, depending on circumstances, Warlock can be frustrating to play in fights because of slot economy. That's why so many people grab one or two levels in something else to get a few 1st level slots on emergency utilities like Shield/Healing Words.

But a Warlock can work also perfectly fine without dips: just pay close attention to what happens on the battlefield, play a ranged Warlock, pick a balance of spells so you're sure to never waste the slot, and if party is pushing too hard on zapping rests, simply explain to them oog how this is detrimental to your fun as well as party efficiency overall.
(Hint: if you find yourself in a pickle such as needing to use Shield, which is really a big waste of a slot, you probably did something wrong or the enemy managed to be particularly crafty on that occurence: unless your goal really is to make a tanky melee Warlock - in which case there are better ways than Shield anyways-, you should always try and stay at range).

TL;DR
Warlock can be frustrating to play at low levels because of the slot economy, but if really having magic is important to a player, there are many ways to greatly alleviate the problem by carefully picking some Invocations, feats or Pacts. :)