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Trandir
2019-10-23, 02:17 AM
A dungeon is somewhat of a loose term it can can have many forms from caves to mazes, from forests to towers, actual dungeons or a captured town. As such the DM out there have the freedom to design then in any way they want.

Now my question is: why is the strongest enemy/encounter, usually, at the end of it and not earlier on? I get from the game prospective you don't want your players to risk dying 5 minutes in but at the same time it seems something lime a design flaw. If the actual strongest enemy isn't that "Dungeon Master" then it probably would be nearer the entrance/beginning to prevent randos from entering and messing the traps, loot and mocks.


I am not an expert but I always felt like that a decent designer would do something similar to save up resources. What are your opinions?

Incorrect
2019-10-23, 02:51 AM
In my home I dont really hang out by my front door. I have more important (or comfortable) things to do than prevent thieves. That's why I have a locked door. And if I want to improve on that, I could get a dog.

Dungeons can be really different, depending on theme.
The crypt could have the biggest threat far into the dungeon, because that's where the champion was buried, or where hell is seeping through reality.
The fortress type dungeon, on the other hand, would have gates and guards. I would expect that to be the second hardest encounter, because as with myself the leader of the fortress will not be on guard duty.

If I was the Evil overlord, I would keep my most dangerous monster in reserve, and actively use it when the heroes was at a disadvantage. My minions will keep most people out of my stronghold, but anyone strong enough to get past the gate is someone I need to focus all firepower on. That would likely mean sacrificing minions to lead the heroes into a trap, where my monster and I, have the best chance of destroying them. I would be more than happy to let the heroes expend their resources by killing minions for 4-6 encounters.

Kane0
2019-10-23, 04:25 AM
Actually, sometimes the toughest encounter is at the start.
https://youtu.be/XWgc20zbRXk

Kaptin Keen
2019-10-23, 05:30 AM
Also, it's just .. a trope, it's how the story always goes: To get to the Evil Villain Mastermind, you need to carve a bloody swath through dozens of minions, henchmen and liutenants. Then, finally, the grand showdown will take place in a decorative garden, while the snow quietly falls, uncaring of the grand drama playing out.

Also, there needs to be some measure of moustache twirling and evil laughter as the Villain inspects his most devious trap - which may well be right at the main gate. Bonus points if it involves sharks (with friggin lasers on their heads).

DeTess
2019-10-23, 05:36 AM
There's a couple of reasons. You probably want to have a traditional tension arc, with the tension slowly increasing as you go through the dungeon. If you start with the biggest baddest dude first, then the tension spikes up all at once and then all the way down again as the rest of the dungeon consists of push-overs in comparison.

It can also function as away to present info to the players. The moment they encounter the really strong enemy in the dungeon, they'll expect/know that that is the final fight of the dungeon, so they can go all out and not have to worry about keeping stuff in reserve.

Lastly, the biggest, nastiest thing in a dungeon is often the reason why the PC's visit it in the first place, and killing it might remove any incentive for exploring the rest of the dungeon.

Quertus
2019-10-23, 06:03 AM
Because, in most "dungeons" that PCs murderhobo their way through, the most dangerous creature isn't Lawful Good. When it looks at the dungeon, and asks, "do I want to be in a position to protect those weaker than me, or in a position to use those I can bully around for my protection", the answer is clearly the latter.

Then again, if the most dangerous denizen is Lawful Good, then there's every chance that the subservient denizens are also Lawful Good, and will happily do their red shirt duty to protect their leader, and insist that command staff shouldn't go on away missions their leader shouldn't sleep unguarded by the front door.

Imbalance
2019-10-23, 10:24 AM
A dungeon is somewhat of a loose term it can can have many forms from caves to mazes, from forests to towers, actual dungeons or a captured town. As such the DM out there have the freedom to design then in any way they want.

Now my question is: why is the strongest enemy/encounter, usually, at the end of it and not earlier on? I get from the game prospective you don't want your players to risk dying 5 minutes in but at the same time it seems something lime a design flaw. If the actual strongest enemy isn't that "Dungeon Master" then it probably would be nearer the entrance/beginning to prevent randos from entering and messing the traps, loot and mocks.


I am not an expert but I always felt like that a decent designer would do something similar to save up resources. What are your opinions?

I'm no expert, either, but in general I think it's probably safe to assume that most BBEG lairs were not designed as such, and what resources the foe has are better devoted to placing obstacles between himself and would-be adventurers within a stolen/repurposed space that insure ample time to either prepare their defeat or escape them rather than setting the basket with all the eggs right behind the portcullis. If one such obstacle happens to be a more powerful guardian in the service of the evil one, then yeah, let the players run into that enemy sooner, and maybe that gives the BBEG a gauge of how much of a threat the party is.

In that vein, I'm trying to imagine purpose-built structures that serve the setting, and how they would be transformed under occupation by enemies. For example, why would a mine also have a temple, or how depraved must these bandits be that they set up their dining hall in a mausoleum, or is the prison's sewer system connection upstream or downstream relative to the mains from the city? Naturally formed structures have different questions to answer, such as the location of a source of fresh water - whether it's a forest or cave, the fittest of the survivors are most likely to be found near it. Everything else ought to form organically from these kinds of basic amenities in service to what the players find by the time they get there.

Jay R
2019-10-23, 11:14 AM
Now my question is: why is the strongest enemy/encounter, usually, at the end of it and not earlier on?

The easiest answer is this: for the same reason a king doesn't open his own gate.

In my best deep dungeons, there is no strongest enemy and no final encounter. There are paths currently blocked off, but my vague assumption is that these caverns are the beginning of the path to the underworld, and go on down eventually to demons. [Note that the dwarves of Moria found the Balrog by delving too deep.]

The first level or two are the creatures that have been forced up by the stronger ones on the third and fourth level, who were forced up by even stronger ones on the fifth and sixth levels, and so on.

In small ones like tombs, I assume that the Great Warrior was buried surrounded by his servants, who were given lesser chambers, so of course the most powerful undead is at the bottom.

And of course in a wizard's castle, her guards are at the gate, her apprentices inside, her friends near her, and she is in the lab.

Trandir
2019-10-23, 01:33 PM
Apparently one of the arguments is that that a dungeon's master is usually also the most poweful being in it. If the dungeon is a dragon's lair obv the dragon will be in the furthest hardest to access part of the cave, castle etc...
Same goes for warlock, demons, giants and other BBEGs that are far stronger than their minions.

The argument that the king doesn't guard the door is exactly what inspired the thread. The king probably is far from the best fighter in his castle, but his champion will probably be by his side in most "dungeons" insted of let's say the second gatehouse to kill possible trespassers.

bc56
2019-10-23, 04:02 PM
Apparently one of the arguments is that that a dungeon's master is usually also the most poweful being in it. If the dungeon is a dragon's lair obv the dragon will be in the furthest hardest to access part of the cave, castle etc...
Same goes for warlock, demons, giants and other BBEGs that are far stronger than their minions.

The argument that the king doesn't guard the door is exactly what inspired the thread. The king probably is far from the best fighter in his castle, but his champion will probably be by his side in most "dungeons" insted of let's say the second gatehouse to kill possible trespassers.

This makes sense when you think about it. A leader wants their best bodyguards close at hand in case the outer levels of protection fail in an unexpected way. If ninjas climb over your castle wall at night, you want the champion close at hand to fight them when they come to assassinate you. If your champion is at the gatehouse, he probably won't make it to your bedchamber before the ninjas. Since you are a normal human and not a boss monster, the ninjas will probably succeed in killing you. The only good reason for your strongest minion to be at the gate instead of by your side is if it is absolutely inconceivable that A: enemies enter through any way other than the main gate, and B: enemies can get past the champion without fighting them.

Trandir
2019-10-23, 04:31 PM
This makes sense when you think about it. A leader wants their best bodyguards close at hand in case the outer levels of protection fail in an unexpected way. If ninjas climb over your castle wall at night, you want the champion close at hand to fight them when they come to assassinate you. If your champion is at the gatehouse, he probably won't make it to your bedchamber before the ninjas. Since you are a normal human and not a boss monster, the ninjas will probably succeed in killing you. The only good reason for your strongest minion to be at the gate instead of by your side is if it is absolutely inconceivable that A: enemies enter through any way other than the main gate, and B: enemies can get past the champion without fighting them.

So it works if the "dungeon" is built and defended properly as one would expect one to be.

Duff
2019-10-23, 06:43 PM
So the take away lesson for dungeon designers -
If you want your dungeon to follow the narrative arc (which is there for a reason), there are lots of good reasons to do just that - Strong evil puts weak evil between them and danger, weak good wants to protect strong good. Powerful entities who are bad at combat put their greatest combat strength with them and away from the entrance.
Tactically, you use weaker forces at the outer edge of your kingdom and your fortress to warn of attacks so the more valuable strong units get used in a more tactical manner and get warned so they can set up, suit up and deploy

Son of A Lich!
2019-10-24, 02:37 AM
It's all in the illusion of DMing.

Usually, from my perspective, you have the HARD fight first. They soften up and force the players to use up valued resources to build tension when they go in deeper.

Then I tailor the next few encounters to build that confidence back up again. a super easy puzzle, maybe a few mobs that make sense and direct the party inward. that kind of thing. a hidden and trapped chest that the rogue gets to disarm for a quick reprieve of lost goods (like potions and such they can buy when they return).

Then I build up the Bravado with the final boss - It FEELS harder then it really is, because the players don't know when the boss will die. They feel like they are running on empty, and giving it their all in one last push. Honestly though, the boss is about an average encounter for them in a pretty room with unique abilities.

It's all part of the show.

Pauly
2019-10-24, 02:59 AM
The snake-dungeon where you slowly work your way through a laundry list of opponents is purely a storytelling device.

More realistic situations would have the defenders in mutually supporting positions with mobile reserves available to come to any hot spot. The king and his bodyguard may not be sleeping at the main gate, but they’ll all come out looking to find out who’s causing the ruckus. They won’t sit patiently waiting for the PCs to kill the defenders in small manageable groups.

A more realistic approach for the adventurers would be like a modern day special ops strike team. Avoid the mooks, eliminate the target, get out without being compromised.

From a convenience point of view the king doesn’t want to walk all the way through the dungeon, disarming and resetting traps behind him, just to go outside and walk his pet dragon. By the same token he doesn’t want his important allies and lieutenants to have to walk 5 miles through a labyrinth to deliver important news.

A more realistic layout would be like a castle, or any fortification for that matter. In the center will be the the highest most defended part, and a series of defenses extending outwards. Interior lines would help getting reinforcements to trouble spots quickly

Malphegor
2019-10-24, 04:47 AM
I always feel all dungeon designers should read this: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

Imbalance
2019-10-24, 08:08 AM
I always feel all dungeon designers should read this: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

Wooooooowww... it still exists!

Jay R
2019-10-25, 09:59 AM
I always feel all dungeon designers should read this: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

I wrote my own additions, available here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17783815&postcount=1).

J-H
2019-10-25, 07:04 PM
Metagame reason:
People like to end the game/session accomplishing something. If they defeated the boss and then spent the last two hours mopping up mooks, there's not a sense of accomplishment.

False God
2019-10-26, 12:39 AM
I always feel all dungeon designers should read this: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

OMG I thought this had vanished from the net! SWEEEEEEET!

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@OP, the design of dungeons is mostly for level/adventure pacing. A "campaign" is in a way one big dungeon, progressively fighting stronger enemies, solving tougher puzzles, until you reach the conclusion with the final showdown. A "dungeon" is just a campaign in a enclosed area.

You could design a dungeon based on more "genre-savvy evil overlord" principles, but it would likely be very un-fun, or at least very antagonistic towards the players.

Remember that tougher fights often mean more XP, putting a big, nearly impossible fight right at the start could result in the players jumping several levels, and then making the remaining fights pointless, both in the sense that they do not challenge the party, and that they also provide little to no XP.