What Non-Casting Dip Would You Put on a Theurge?

[Zombulian]

Hey all, some recent threads got me thinking about early entry into Mystic Theurge using the Improved Krau Sigil feat. This is incredible and elegant on its own, your main casting class is only 1 level behind a straight class and your secondary is only two levels behind.
This did get me thinking though: because of the nature of the Improved Sigil feat, you don’t actually need the second level of a casting class to get into Mystic Theurge, because after level 2 your only prereqs left are the skill ranks.
Now, obviously it is almost always going to be objectively a better choice to just put that second level in one of your casting classes to continue your progression, but let’s say that you’re ok with having 2 classes worth of 3rd level casting at level 5 (and so on).
What 1 level dip would you want to put in that opening? I personally am considering Truenamer. Int synergy + Sigils benefitting Utterances + Illumians qualifying for Able Learner all sound pretty nice. And first level Evolving Mind utterances generally don’t go out of style (Freedom of Movement or untyped +5 to Skills will always be nice).

[pabelfly]

If you go into Truenamer you're going to have to sink quite a lot of resources to keep up your Truespeak check, which only gets harder as you level.

I'd ask for Human Paragon. Illumian arguably are elligible, depending what your DM thinks, getting an extra skill as a class skill is always really nice, and you could even advance it another two levels to get the bonus feat and the +2 to a stat.

[AnimeTheCat]

Any of the meldshapers or martial adepts I think would be superb dips. Especially the meldshapers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think I'd go with ardent and put it at level 3 so I can nab practiced manifester at the same time and grab a couple 2nd level powers. Being psionic has some solid benefits on its own and mantle powers can be nice. It opens up the option to go cerebremancer after MT too.

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey all, some recent threads got me thinking about early entry into Mystic Theurge using the Improved Krau Sigil feat. This is incredible and elegant on its own, your main casting class is only 1 level behind a straight class and your secondary is only two levels behind.
This did get me thinking though: because of the nature of the Improved Sigil feat, you don’t actually need the second level of a casting class to get into Mystic Theurge, because after level 2 your only prereqs left are the skill ranks.
Now, obviously it is almost always going to be objectively a better choice to just put that second level in one of your casting classes to continue your progression, but let’s say that you’re ok with having 2 classes worth of 3rd level casting at level 5 (and so on).
What 1 level dip would you want to put in that opening? I personally am considering Truenamer. Int synergy + Sigils benefitting Utterances + Illumians qualifying for Able Learner all sound pretty nice. And first level Evolving Mind utterances generally don’t go out of style (Freedom of Movement or untyped +5 to Skills will always be nice).

My thread has inspired you. It's an honour. :smile:

[ExLibrisMortis]

On something like a wizard/archivist, maybe Carmendine monk 1? Likewise for a sorcerer/favoured soul, but with Ascetic Mage, instead. Casting stat to AC is just a nice thing to have. For Charisma builds, marshal 1 is very nice, too.

[Thurbane]

Depending on the type of build, I'd either go an initiator (ToB) class (if melee/gish type) or Binder otherwise.

Initiator benefits from an IL boost based on half of your other class levels.

Binder can be boosted with the Improved Binding feat. Access to 2nd level vestiges adds a surprising amount of versatility to a build.

[HouseRules]

Of course, there is the option of a third caster class as well, you know, after 13th level (mystic theurge 10).

If bloodlines do not count towards ECL, max out on it.
Definitely want to look for a source for Trackless Step to stack Arcane Hierophant on top.

1 Wizard 1
2 Archivist 1
3 Filler of Choice <--- Topic of Thread
4 Mystic Theurge 1
5 Mystic Theurge 2
6 Mystic Theurge 3
7 Mystic Theurge 4
8 Mystic Theurge 5
9 Mystic Theurge 6
10 Mystic Theurge 7
11 Mystic Theurge 8
12 Mystic Theurge 9
13 Mystic Theurge 10
14 ? <--- I open this can of worms

[Telonius]

Probably Monk. One level to get Wis to AC (you'll probably have high Wis from one of your classes) and a boost to saves, plus a few interesting class skills. Also some feats to Dark Chaos Shuffle away if your table allows it.

[Rebel7284]

Animal HD 1 (lycanthropy). That way you can cure it later and end up with 1/1/Mystic Theurge built.

Outside of somewhat cheesy templates:

Savage Bard 1 allows you to enter Sublime Chord later to get MORE casting.

Human Paragon 1 is okay-ish especially if you want to finish it later.

Cloistered Cleric 1 is a great dip if your divine side is Archivist.

Factotum 1 is nice if you want Able Learner for something or other and Int to attack/damage/SAVE twice per encounter is actually nice.

[Bphill561]

Turn Undead Pools. If you are playing a neutral cleric with a neutral or good aligned Deity, then you can pick up turn undead. A level of Dread necromancer will get you Rebuke undead. Then you still have a level open if you want a different arcane or divine main, such as wizard to go with cleric or the Favored Soul to go with Dread necromancer. Likewise a Sorcerer/ Favored Soul combo could throw in cleric to get a single turning pool (plus armor and Domain powers).

Warlock is another possibility, but not as the extra class. You can build a Warlock/Cleric/ X/ MT 7/ Eldritch Disciple 10. You end up with 17 levels of cleric casting for 9 level spells along with 18 levels worth of Warlock. Just have to pick the best arcane class with extra's for MT qualification. Wu gen for a bonus feat is probably best unless you need scribe scroll or more turn (Dread Necromancer) as above. Not saying this is great, but if you were interested in Eldritch Disciple build, might as well push it as far as you can.

Zombulian, if you are into skills and not the Truenamer so much, Factotum goes nicely with you Able learner feat selection. Everything is effectively as class skill at every level. A rogue level would probably also get pretty close in a full skill set once you figure in your other class's skills. Taking the fighter feat variant rogue if a bonus feat is favorable to 1d6 sneak attack.


Probably Monk. One level to get Wis to AC (you'll probably have high Wis from one of your classes) and a boost to saves, plus a few interesting class skills. Also some feats to Dark Chaos Shuffle away if your table allows it.

Or for the chaotic alignment, there is always the Battle dancer for Cha to AC. And someone already mentioned Marshal above, which is another solid pick.

[Zombulian]

If you go into Truenamer you're going to have to sink quite a lot of resources to keep up your Truespeak check, which only gets harder as you level.

https://media.giphy.com/media/FMsOQHrSaamk0/giphy.gif


I'd ask for Human Paragon. Illumian arguably are elligible, depending what your DM thinks, getting an extra skill as a class skill is always really nice, and you could even advance it another two levels to get the bonus feat and the +2 to a stat.

Hmm not a bad idea. The question becomes, what one skill do I want forever 🤔


Any of the meldshapers or martial adepts I think would be superb dips. Especially the meldshapers.

Oh duh. Good thinking. Meldshapers in particular can be very nice with casters.


I think I'd go with ardent and put it at level 3 so I can nab practiced manifester at the same time and grab a couple 2nd level powers. Being psionic has some solid benefits on its own and mantle powers can be nice. It opens up the option to go cerebremancer after MT too.

Genius! Can’t believe I didn’t think of that. Grab some powers that are nice irrespective of manifester level, get some sweet Mantle powers, and now you qualify for psionic feats! :smallbiggrin:


On something like a wizard/archivist, maybe Carmendine monk 1? Likewise for a sorcerer/favoured soul, but with Ascetic Mage, instead. Casting stat to AC is just a nice thing to have. For Charisma builds, marshal 1 is very nice, too.

Ohh that’s tempting. Could always ask for extra cheese on that and make it a Martial Monk for some prereq-free fighter feat goodies. Also a Theurge would have enough spell slots to spare that you might actually use the Arcane Strike part of Ascetic Mage.
Personally, in this instance, I wouldn’t go this route because the concept I have in mind is more of a non-combatant. Having a Monk’s unarmed strike makes me feel like I should be using it. It’s not really a logical reason to refuse an idea but it is what it is.

I am thinking of a Wiz/Archivist build so Marshal doesn’t fit but that’s always a good dip! Double Charisma bonus on Charisma checks against Charmed creatures is nasty.


Depending on the type of build, I'd either go an initiator (ToB) class (if melee/gish type) or Binder otherwise.

Initiator benefits from an IL boost based on half of your other class levels.

Binder can be boosted with the Improved Binding feat. Access to 2nd level vestiges adds a surprising amount of versatility to a build.

Yknow I never use Binder. I know I would like it too, I just haven’t messed with it much.
Initiators are something to consider for defensive maneuvers definitely. Ooh or maybe some Diamond Mind stuff to do damage with your Concentration check that will already be high.


Probably Monk. One level to get Wis to AC (you'll probably have high Wis from one of your classes) and a boost to saves, plus a few interesting class skills. Also some feats to Dark Chaos Shuffle away if your table allows it.

Again, not a bad idea, but I’m passing on that.


Animal HD 1 (lycanthropy). That way you can cure it later and end up with 1/1/Mystic Theurge built.

Interesting.


Outside of somewhat cheesy templates:

Savage Bard 1 allows you to enter Sublime Chord later to get MORE casting.

Human Paragon 1 is okay-ish especially if you want to finish it later.

Cloistered Cleric 1 is a great dip if your divine side is Archivist.

Factotum 1 is nice if you want Able Learner for something or other and Int to attack/damage/SAVE twice per encounter is actually nice.

Cloistered Cleric and Archivist are so clearly sister classes, but for whatever reason it feels weird for me to mix them. Maybe I feel guilty about getting Turning Attempts when Archivist casting is already so good.

Factotum is a good pick! I couldn’t remember what their first level ability was, but that’s definitely nice. Trapfinding isn’t bad either, though it’s not like a Mystic Theurge has the skill points to spend on Search...



Warlock is another possibility, but not as the extra class. You can build a Warlock/Cleric/ X/ MT 7/ Eldritch Disciple 10. You end up with 17 levels of cleric casting for 9 level spells along with 18 levels worth of Warlock. Just have to pick the best arcane class with extra's for MT qualification. Wu gen for a bonus feat is probably best unless you need scribe scroll or more turn (Dread Necromancer) as above. Not saying this is great, but if you were interested in Eldritch Disciple build, might as well push it as far as you can.

I actually like Warlock as a pick for the extra class. Eldritch Blast is a nice ability in the early game, and Baleful Utterance pretty much never stops being good.
I actually really, really like Wu Jen as an option. Free Metamagic feat and an ability to Reroll initiative is a great payoff! Additionally, it’s another spellbook class, meaning three spellbooks for this character which just seems kinda fun. But the really cool part about Wu Jen being a spellbook class is that even if you’re not progressing it you can make Spellcraft checks to identify and scribe spells into the book. Then you can use Anyspell from your Archivist side to prepare Wu Jen spells!


Zombulian, if you are into skills and not the Truenamer so much, Factotum goes nicely with you Able learner feat selection. Everything is effectively as class skill at every level. A rogue level would probably also get pretty close in a full skill set once you figure in your other class's skills. Taking the fighter feat variant rogue if a bonus feat is favorable to 1d6 sneak attack.

I wasn’t into Truenamer for the skills really. I was mostly enamored with the idea of using Inertia Surge to give party members FoM after I had cast Entangle. Universal Aptitude is always nice but I was only going to take it to qualify for Utterance of the Evolving Mind to pick up Hidden Truth for Archivist synergy. It’s a lot of investment for not much payoff though, I admit.
I always forget Feat Rogue is a thing! I like Sneak Attack too much to ever consider it.
Oh, now that I think about it... Spellthief could be a nice option as well.

[Ramza00]

Cloistered Cleric for it is 2 domains plus knowledge domain. Many domains give useful feats or class abilities.

Combine with Archivist and Wizard. Swapping out the Wizard Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus Feat or Augment Summoning.

Take Keen Intellect, Academic Priest and Spell Mastery+Uncanny Forethought for great Int Synergy.

[Malphegor]

How about a Marshal? I think Truename needs charisma checks, so if you've got the Motivate Charisma aura (non-magical, mostly you shouting 'come on you wellies, smile harder' encouraging at yourself and allies) you can add your charisma score a second time to your charisma checks (as does all allies within 30ft).

[Kelb_Panthera]

How about a Marshal? I think Truename needs charisma checks, so if you've got the Motivate Charisma aura (non-magical, mostly you shouting 'come on you wellies, smile harder' encouraging at yourself and allies) you can add your charisma score a second time to your charisma checks (as does all allies within 30ft).

Trunameing is an int check. Marshal does that too though so it's still not a bad way to go. Problem is that, for the thread topic at least, you only get -1- class level dip.

Keeping the truenaming check up isn't any more difficult for a truenamer 1/ X 19 than it is for a truenmaner 20 though. It's just a difference of 1 feat in the overall: truename training. It even gives you ranks for points spent retroactively. Past that it's all the same int and skill boosting stuff either way.

[pabelfly]

https://media.giphy.com/media/FMsOQHrSaamk0/giphy.gif

Fair enough. Do you have plans to add any of the Truename-based spells to your casting list?

[GrayDeath]

Depending on the type of build, I'd either go an initiator (ToB) class (if melee/gish type) or Binder otherwise.

Initiator benefits from an IL boost based on half of your other class levels.

Binder can be boosted with the Improved Binding feat. Access to 2nd level vestiges adds a surprising amount of versatility to a build.

That, exactly.

[Zombulian]

Trunameing is an int check. Marshal does that too though so it's still not a bad way to go. Problem is that, for the thread topic at least, you only get -1- class level dip.

Keeping the truenaming check up isn't any more difficult for a truenamer 1/ X 19 than it is for a truenmaner 20 though. It's just a difference of 1 feat in the overall: truename training. It even gives you ranks for points spent retroactively. Past that it's all the same int and skill boosting stuff either way.

Right, exactly. Though I was leaning more towards Able Learner to also compensate for the fact that Mystic Theurge guts your knowledge skills. Truename Training is indeed nice for the return on previous investment part though.
The further feat and skill investment to allow for more Truenaming tricks just doesn’t seem worth it now.


Fair enough. Do you have plans to add any of the Truename-based spells to your casting list?

I forgot there were Truename spells! I’d need to take a look at them.


Cloistered Cleric for it is 2 domains plus knowledge domain. Many domains give useful feats or class abilities.

Combine with Archivist and Wizard. Swapping out the Wizard Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus Feat or Augment Summoning.

Take Keen Intellect, Academic Priest and Spell Mastery+Uncanny Forethought for great Int Synergy.

Yeah I was already gonna do Combat Prowess Wizard to grab Improved Initiative because Archivist gets Scribe Scroll. Beleaguered Spellcaster too just for kicks.

Hmmm. Does Uncanny Forethought work with any prepared caster? RAI seems obvious that it’s Wizard only because it requires Spell Mastery, but it doesn’t specify that you make the choice while preparing Wizard spells...

ION: I think it’s funny that after making a thread about which non-caster dip to take, the one I liked the most was Wu Jen.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hold up, you DO need a second level of any class to get your second power sigil and be able to apply Improved Sigil: Krau to a spell from each class. Without a class at level 2, you only have the Krau sigil and you can only apply Improved Sigil to one of your spells. Maybe if you can cast the same spell with both classes it can work, but the safest way to accomplish that is to just take one of your classes to 2nd level.

[HouseRules]

Hold up, you DO need a second level of any class to get your second power sigil and be able to apply Improved Sigil: Krau to a spell from each class. Without a class at level 2, you only have the Krau sigil and you can only apply Improved Sigil to one of your spells. Maybe if you can cast the same spell with both classes it can work, but the safest way to accomplish that is to just take one of your classes to 2nd level.

But then, the second level of Mystic Theurge would take care of it later on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hold up, you DO need a second level of any class to get your second power sigil and be able to apply Improved Sigil: Krau to a spell from each class. Without a class at level 2, you only have the Krau sigil and you can only apply Improved Sigil to one of your spells. Maybe if you can cast the same spell with both classes it can work, but the safest way to accomplish that is to just take one of your classes to 2nd level.

I actually ran this to ground not so long ago. The intent, when you look at the example illumian characters, is that your second level, regardless of class, gets you your second power sigil and you only ever get those two. I was trying to figure out if having two levels in 3 different classes got me a 3rd power sigil but that's clearly not the intent. Basically, the line "On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil," is missing a comma between the words "level" and "in."

At least if you give the first half-a-damn about designer intent, anyway.

[Troacctid]

It's clearly not missing a comma as that sentence would make no sense with a comma there. You definitely need 2nd level in one class to get the second sigil. It also doesn't matter because you can just pick a spell that both classes share.

My actual real legit answer to the question is paragnostic apostle.

[Zombulian]

Hold up, you DO need a second level of any class to get your second power sigil and be able to apply Improved Sigil: Krau to a spell from each class. Without a class at level 2, you only have the Krau sigil and you can only apply Improved Sigil to one of your spells. Maybe if you can cast the same spell with both classes it can work, but the safest way to accomplish that is to just take one of your classes to 2nd level.

Hm! I always assumed it was talking about character level, but I see what you mean.


But then, the second level of Mystic Theurge would take care of it later on.

I mean, sure, but you need the 2nd power sigil to get into MT in the first place, unless you’re using the spell choice trick.


It's clearly not missing a comma as that sentence would make no sense with a comma there. You definitely need 2nd level in one class to get the second sigil. It also doesn't matter because you can just pick a spell that both classes share.

My actual real legit answer to the question is paragnostic apostle.

You can’t get into paragnostic apostle by 3rd level can you? :smallconfused:

[HouseRules]

I mean, sure, but you need the 2nd power sigil to get into MT in the first place, unless you’re using the spell choice trick.
Bloodline 2 works with DM's that does not count Bloodlines towards ECL, but then Bloodlines is one of the best skill trick cheese ever.
1 Wizard 1
1+ Bloodline 1
1++ Bloodline 2
1+++ Bloodline 3
2 Archivist 1
3 Mystic Theurge 1


You can’t get into paragnostic apostle by 3rd level can you? :smallconfused:
Troacctid: Paragnostic Apostle needs access to 3rd level spells as a prerequisite.

[Zombulian]

Bloodline 2 works with DM's that does not count Bloodlines towards ECL, but then Bloodlines is one of the best skill trick cheese ever.
1 Wizard 1
1+ Bloodline 1
1++ Bloodline 2
1+++ Bloodline 3
2 Archivist 1
3 Mystic Theurge 1


Troacctid: Paragnostic Apostle needs access to 3rd level spells as a prerequisite.

Oh gosh. Yeah I try to stay away from bloodline cheese unless I’m building a Truenamer or something that could use the help and won’t even be very powerful with the addition.

I suppose Precocious Apprentice + Krau Sigil could get you 3rd level spells...

[Psyren]

Seconding Thurbane - if you already have Cleric 1 covered, the next best all-purpose/build-agnostic dip is probably going to be Binder 1.

[Troacctid]

You can’t get into paragnostic apostle by 3rd level can you? :smallconfused:
Maybe you can't. I, on the other hand, took Touchstone (Healing Waters of Abu-Ima) as my 1st level feat.

[Zombulian]

Maybe you can't. I, on the other hand, took Touchstone (Healing Waters of Abu-Ima) as my 1st level feat.

Where’d you get 250gp at level 1?

[Thurbane]

Human with Mercantile Background feat?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Evil characters can use Eldritch Corruption to qualify for Mystic Theurge and Paragnostic Apostle.

[Zombulian]

Alternative Source Spell provides an option besides picking a spell that overlaps on the Wiz and Cleric list. Couple of ways to get around that sneaky sigil issue.

[HouseRules]

Evil characters can use Eldritch Corruption to qualify for Mystic Theurge and Paragnostic Apostle.

How does the Illumian get 2 feats at level 2?

[AnimeTheCat]

How does the Illumian get 2 feats at level 2?

Probably flaws

[ExLibrisMortis]

How does the Illumian get 2 feats at level 2?
You don't need both feats. Eldritch Corruption lets you Heighten a spell by two levels.

Edit: I forgot it has a prerequisite. In that case, yeah, flaws, or playing a human (since you don't need a sigil).

[Zombulian]

You don't need both feats. Eldritch Corruption lets you Heighten a spell by two levels.

Edit: I forgot it has a prerequisite. In that case, yeah, flaws, or playing a human (since you don't need a sigil).

Well, Moderate Taint is a prereq for Eldritch Corruption anyway, and Moderate Taint nets you a bonus feat.