How to make HAM beefier

[Nagog]

Dang it's been a while since I've been here, but it's good to be back!
So I've been looking around the various ways to make a long-lasting tank that doesn't use self-healing, and the idea of buffing/reworking HAM was proposed to me. I like the idea, as having a scaling HAM makes for a viable feat option rather than a throwaway ASI you'll regret in 2-3 sessions.

Currently, the idea is to give you DR of double your proficiency bonus against physical attacks (including magic weapons). This allows it to be a wonderful option early on, and while 12 damage per hit at level 20 is still a drop in the bucket, it makes a huge difference on the right builds (AoA builds for example). How would you feel about this as a player and as a DM? (asking for both because I feel the different perspectives are typically synonymous with what side is taken)

Some modifiers that were also suggested were nerfing this to only function against attacks you can see coming, so surprise attacks will ignore it, or buffing it to include all damage (including spells and non-physical damage sources).

[stoutstien]

Make the damage reduction equal to the users proficiency bonus.

[Damon_Tor]

I continue to think of it as a strong feat as-is, though I allow it to protect against magic weapon damage as long as your armor is also magical.

[MaxWilson]

Currently, the idea is to give you DR of double your proficiency bonus against physical attacks (including magic weapons). This allows it to be a wonderful option early on, and while 12 damage per hit at level 20 is still a drop in the bucket, it makes a huge difference on the right builds (AoA builds for example). How would you feel about this as a player and as a DM? (asking for both because I feel the different perspectives are typically synonymous with what side is taken)

As a player I would feel like this was a bit much, and as a DM I would also feel like this was a bit much. You could make it 1 + proficiency bonus against everything including magic weapons and it would still be so good that you'd probably need to make it a full feat instead of a half-feat (no +1 to Strength). Making it 2 x Proficiency is just crazy strong. At mid-to-high levels you'd be essentially invulnerable to mobs, forever, at no resource cost.

[Theodoxus]

Double prof would be ok if you kept only non-magical BPS damage only. I always felt a flat 3 was just weird anyway.

I could see DR = Prof if you boosted it to include all damage types except Psychic. The nice thing is it wouldn't stack with barbearians, since they lost rage powers in heavy armor.

While DR 6 could occasionally beat out flat resistance, I doubt it would happen too often to matter.

Having played a standard HAM fighter for 6 levels, as a Player, it's kinda annoying... especially 3 rounds later when you realize you forgot to subtract the damage reduction. It's decent if you're hyper focused, or in a CPRG... it's meh if you're a normal human :smallwink:

[Kane0]

Prof bonus against all B/P/S damage (including magic) sounds good to me. Double is too much, if it's still not strong enough make it a half feat

[Nagog]

Double prof would be ok if you kept only non-magical BPS damage only. I always felt a flat 3 was just weird anyway.

I could see DR = Prof if you boosted it to include all damage types except Psychic. The nice thing is it wouldn't stack with barbearians, since they lost rage powers in heavy armor.

While DR 6 could occasionally beat out flat resistance, I doubt it would happen too often to matter.

Having played a standard HAM fighter for 6 levels, as a Player, it's kinda annoying... especially 3 rounds later when you realize you forgot to subtract the damage reduction. It's decent if you're hyper focused, or in a CPRG... it's meh if you're a normal human :smallwink:

I was initially building a barbarian with this until I read into the barbarian and re-discovered the Heavy Armor limitation a while back. Now it's just spells/Dodge for resistance/evading and HAM for reduction when they do manage to hit.

[Gignere]

HAM is damn good as is. Monsters don’t really do magical B/P/S even at high levels. Some do but enough don’t that it is still good. But if you had to buff it the one buff I can see and keep it as is, is to apply it to magical B/P/S. I mathed it out such that at high levels it’s still mitigating like 10% of the damage. Because a lot of high level monsters doesn’t do one big hit but rather a bunch of medium size hits. At double proficiency it would be broken beyond all hell.

[Gignere]

For example against ancient gold dragon’s attack it is still taking away anywhere between 15 - 20% off each hit of its multiattack. That’s a damn good feat. Note ancient gold dragon doesn’t even do magical b/p/s.

Even against the tarrasque ham is taking away on average just about 10% of the damage. Note even the tarrasque doesn’t do magical B/P/S.

[Max_Killjoy]

Start with a cow instead of a pig.

[MaxWilson]

Start with a cow instead of a pig.

*groans*

Well-played, sir.

[Protolisk]

Start with a cow instead of a pig.

So, Minotaurs, not first edition Orcs, got it.

[bid]

How would you feel about this as a player and as a DM?
Make it a full feat. +1 Str doesn't cut it.

[Slipperychicken]

(2 x proficiency) against all damage types except psychic.

Because being covered in armor actually does help against things like electricity, sudden bursts of coldness, and fire. If someone in full armor has to run over hot coals or get briefly licked by flames, they're going to be much better off than someone naked. Before you ask, the amount of heat it takes to make metal hot (hot enough to hurt a wearer underneath padding and chainmail) would have already killed an unarmored target many times over. Yes, even electricity because a full suit of armor functions like a faraday cage.

Yeah damage reduction 12 at level 20 isn't worth a whole lot in CR-appropriate/deadly fights, but it makes the character functionally immune to many small sources of damage, including most environmental effects and mobs of weaker enemies.

[JNAProductions]

(2 x proficiency) against all damage types except psychic.

Because being covered in armor actually does help against things like electricity, sudden bursts of coldness, and fire. If someone in full armor has to run over hot coals or get briefly licked by flames, they're going to be much better off than someone naked. Before you ask, the amount of heat it takes to make metal hot (hot enough to hurt a wearer underneath padding and chainmail) would have already killed an unarmored target many times over. Yes, even electricity because a full suit of armor functions like a faraday cage.

Yeah damage reduction 12 at level 20 isn't worth a whole lot in CR-appropriate/deadly fights, but it makes the character functionally immune to many small sources of damage, including most environmental effects and mobs of weaker enemies.

And that's a problem. See Grod's Thread on AC as DR.

Low level threats are meant to stay relevant-dropping 12 points of damage off every attack means that low CR creatures can't damage you at all on a hit, and stand a good chance of failing to damage you even on a crit.

Not to mention, an Ancient Red Dragon (CR 24) does the following damage with their attacks:
Bite: 21 (2d10+10)
2X Claw: 17 (2d6+10)

Meaning that, if you face it at level 17+, this feat cuts damage by MORE THAN 50% against everything but the breath attack!
In one turn, it can be worth as much as 36 HP-that's more than Tough gives at this level.

No-if I wanted to fix HAM, I'd make it equal proficiency bonus, and allow magical armor to work on magical weapon damage. That's all it needs.

[Fable Wright]

In high level play, I've seen very low CR enemies in vast quantities being extremely threatening.

Especially by enemies such as Quicklings and Starspawn Manglers.

Heavy Armor Master was designed to shine against the hardest (for melee) encounters: Massed glass cannon threats. Doing even single proficiency to DR reduces damage from Quicklings by 75%, and 38-75% for Starspawn Manglers. That's huge already, much less doubling proficiency.

Tough, a full feat, increases your HP by roughly 20% for a 16 Con fighter. Increasing effective HP by 10% is already worth a half feat, much less giving it edge cases to overwhelmingly reduce encounter threat.

Even at 3 flat points of damage, you are reducing damage from, say, an Ancient Gold by up to ~15%, which is already above the curve for a half feat. Seriously, you people are adding way too much to an already rather strong feat just because of its low-level overperformance.

[CNagy]

As a reaction, gain resistance to Slashing/Piercing/Blunt damage until the start of your next turn. *Edit* When wearing heavy armor, of course.

[Zhorn]

As a reaction, gain resistance to Slashing/Piercing/Blunt damage until the start of your next turn. *Edit* When wearing heavy armor, of course.

Being as resistance to Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning damage is a class feature attainable with a barbarian dip, I'd be inclined to avoid that. But building off your suggestions and something e few above have suggested:

"While wearing heavy armor; As a reaction, reduce the amount of damage cause by an attack that deals to Slashing/Piercing/Blunt by a value equal to twice your proficiency bonus."

[Spectrulus]

I continue to think of it as a strong feat as-is, though I allow it to protect against magic weapon damage as long as your armor is also magical.

For all the reasons above regarding it as a good feat, I homebrewed it to add magical damage as long as your armor is magical in a 3-20 campaign, and it helped the character last about 1 extra round a fight on average, which seemed fine.

[FrancisBean]

Start with a cow instead of a pig.

You owe me a beer to replace the one I just sprayed onto my screen.


I continue to think of it as a strong feat as-is, though I allow it to protect against magic weapon damage as long as your armor is also magical.

I think I'm going to add that to my standard set of house rules. It's a little complicated, but armor changes are rare enough that it shouldn't be a big deal. Either way, it's a fairly strong feat in my own campaigns, because I tend to throw a lot of weak minions at my players. When you're surrounded by a squad of 1d6+1 attackers, -3 dmg becomes a big deal fast.


I could see DR = Prof if you boosted it to include all damage types except Psychic. The nice thing is it wouldn't stack with barbearians, since they lost rage powers in heavy armor.

That sort of thinking always worries me.... I figure it's the sort of thing which led to the 3.x rules maze. "This change doesn't matter because of this other precise rule." And then someone adds a new barbarian subclass which can wear armor, or a special armor for barbarians, or something like that. It's fine in isolation, and I find it elegant, but I worry about brittleness and future additions. Then again, given that damage reduction is applied before resistance, I think my worry here would be overblown.

[Theodoxus]

For all the reasons above regarding it as a good feat, I homebrewed it to add magical damage as long as your armor is magical in a 3-20 campaign, and it helped the character last about 1 extra round a fight on average, which seemed fine.

You know, that's not bad... "The AC bonus from magical armor adds to the amount reduced by HAM, and allows HAM to affect magical weapons."

So, HAM tier 1, reduces damage by 3. HAM tier 2, reduces damage (including magical weapons) by 4; tier 3 by 5 and tier 4 by 6. If the DM grants +2 or +3 armor earlier, then so be it...

[Guy Lombard-O]

Seeing as how I as a player semi-seriously considered taking HAM as written, I'd have to say that your fix is broken.

I was querying my DM about allowing either a DR equal to proficiency, or allowing the DR3 to apply to magical attacks as well. Not both. And certainly not prof X 2! Let's not forget, folks, this is a half-feat we're talking about. How much DR is it really worth, getting a +1 to Str instead of a +2? On some builds (like mine), it makes zero effective difference anyway.

Also, I like Spectrulus's fix in theory. But seeing as how I play at a home game where the forever-DM hasn't dropped a single magic armor during the last 4 years, his fix would have no practical effect in our game. Other than that, I do like it!

[MaxWilson]

Seeing as how I as a player semi-seriously considered taking HAM as written, I'd have to say that your fix is broken.

I consider it more than semi-seriously. If I roll e.g. 14 7 14 13 10 11, one attractive shape is to turn that into

Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter X
Str 16 (14) Dex 10 Con 12 (11) Int 14 Wis 13 Cha 7, human [+1 Str, +1 Con, Heavy Armor Master]

Can tank just fine with AC 19ish in chain mail + shield (AC 21 when plate armor comes online), can play fun tricks from 4th level onward with e.g. Invisibility + Hypnotic Gaze. HAM helps make up for lowish HP by taking 3 HP off almost every attack, and the extra +1 to Strength synergizes well with Booming Blade attacks. If I'd rolled a 12 instead of a 13 I'd put the +1 into Wis 13 (12) instead of Str, which would make HAM even more essential for giving more enough strength to move at full speed.

[Willie the Duck]

Start with a cow instead of a pig.


*groans*

Well-played, sir.

...but then would it be ham?...
Glad I'm not the only one to catch that. OP, was it intentional?

As to the feat, I think the feat is fine, as is, although I can see maybe wanting to remove that limit of nonmagical P/B/S attacks just for a little more staying power for later levels.

However (to pseudo-contradict myself) that depends on how powerful one thinks feats ought to be. Clearly there's quite some variance. If the primary audience for the feat is the same melee martial characters who otherwise are looking at the Sentinel/PAM/GWM collection that are routinely cited as upper-end feats, well then a minor boost for this would make it more likely to be picked up frequently.

[sithlordnergal]

I think double Proficiency DPR against magical weapon damage is just fine. I mean, maybe I'm biased due to playing too much AL, but all of the foes I faced at Tier 3 or 4 did magical damage, and did so much damage that -3 was pointless to worry about anyway

[Yunru]

and did so much damage that -3 was pointless to worry about anyway
In one attack?
HAM is, after all, per attack.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I did some math with people on these forums a year or two ago that showed that HAM is only a bit less effective at high levels versus low levels since most of the upper CR threats deal their damage quota via multiattack, and it never stops being good at weathering mobs. Magic damage is fairly uncommon as it is outside of homebrew, but if you're looking for a buff, allowing magical heavy armor to block magical B/P/S seems fine.

The sort of heavy armor wearer that would be attracted to HAM are already super tough, I'd be wary of allowing a feat to trivialize damage any further than it does. If you're dead set on allowing them to cut upwards of 6 damage a swing at high levels, it really needs to stop being a half feat.

(WARNING: Messy math with wide, sweeping guesswork)

For comparison, Tough isn't usually considered underpowered. It can give you, at most, 40 HP. HAM will naturally meet or exceed that if you weather 34 blows. Average damage at CR 20 is around 40 per turn, and it's usually in at least two attacks for anything that's going to do B/P/S in the first place. A level 20 Fighter has an average of 114.5 HP. They should theoretically drop after five attacks. HAM would cut your standard CR 20 threat's damage down to roughly 17 per attack, and they would last seven attacks like this before going down. With Tough instead, at 154.5 HP, they will last eight attacks like this before going down.

If it scales all the way to +6, HAM will suddenly outdo Tough. While it still won't help against spells and any other non-B/P/S (which gives Tough a niche here, at least), that's way too good for a half feat.

[sithlordnergal]

In one attack?
HAM is, after all, per attack.

Yup, in one attack. -3 doesn't help much against an Ancient Red Shadow Dragon that smites you with d10s, and uses their Hit Dice to power those smites. @_@ Nor does it help against not one, but two Meteor Swarms in a row on the first round of an encounter. It did help a little against the Spawn of Kyuss though, but not a ton.

[MaxWilson]

Yup, in one attack. -3 doesn't help much against an Ancient Red Shadow Dragon that smites you with d10s, and uses their Hit Dice to power those smites. @_@ Nor does it help against not one, but two Meteor Swarms in a row on the first round of an encounter. It did help a little against the Spawn of Kyuss though, but not a ton.

Did you say these were AL encounters at TL 3 and 4? That sounds like a very, very nonstandard Ancient Red Shadow Dragon.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I think it's a good Feat as-is.

But if you want to improve it without getting too crazy, maybe pick one:

1) It subtracts +prof bonus rather than +3. (A favorite on this thread.)

2) It stays +3, but works against all damage. (Yes, including psychic: The master of heavy armor has supreme confidence in his mastery, and that confidence acts as a bulwark. This version has the virtue of always doing the exact same thing, so it's dead simple.)

Anyway,

Ken

[Nidgit]

For comparison, Tough isn't usually considered underpowered. It can give you, at most, 40 HP. HAM will naturally meet or exceed that if you weather 34 blows. Average damage at CR 20 is around 40 per turn, and it's usually in at least two attacks for anything that's going to do B/P/S in the first place. A level 20 Fighter has an average of 114.5 HP. They should theoretically drop after five attacks. HAM would cut your standard CR 20 threat's damage down to roughly 17 per attack, and they would last seven attacks like this before going down. With Tough instead, at 154.5 HP, they will last eight attacks like this before going down.

If it scales all the way to +6, HAM will suddenly outdo Tough. While it still won't help against spells and any other non-B/P/S (which gives Tough a niche here, at least), that's way too good for a half feat.
I agree with your premise but saying a Level 20 Fighter has only 114.5 HP is true only if the Fighter has 10 CON, which is pretty dang uncommon. That Level 20 Fighter is much more likely to have 154-174 HP.

Let's say 154 HP for the HAM Fighter and 194 for the Tough one. Current HAM Fighter lasts 9-10 attacks at 17 damage per hit and the Tough Fighter lasts 10 attacks. That's fairly comparable, but it's worth noting that HAM scales better with CON investment than Tough does. The trade-off, of course, is that the extra Tough HP helps with other types of damage too.

[MaxWilson]

I agree with your premise but saying a Level 20 Fighter has only 114.5 HP is true only if the Fighter has 10 CON, which is pretty dang uncommon. That Level 20 Fighter is much more likely to have 154-174 HP.

Let's say 154 HP for the HAM Fighter and 194 for the Tough one. Current HAM Fighter lasts 9-10 attacks at 17 damage per hit and the Tough Fighter lasts 10 attacks. That's fairly comparable, but it's worth noting that HAM scales better with CON investment than Tough does. The trade-off, of course, is that the extra Tough HP helps with other types of damage too.

And of course HAM scales with party healing capabilities too whereas the value of Tough is static.

(To those who say Tough isn't considered underpowered, I say, "have you seen Inspiring Leader?")

[sithlordnergal]

Did you say these were AL encounters at TL 3 and 4? That sounds like a very, very nonstandard Ancient Red Shadow Dragon.

Yup, that particular encounter is from Those That Came Before. Its a pretty fun adventure, but it doesn't have a lot of combat encounters outside of the final boss which is an Ancient Red Shadow Dragon Paladin of Kyuss. Hence the ability to smite.

EDIT: My mistake, it's an Ancient Copper Dragon that adds damage to its attacks.

[MaxWilson]

Yup, that particular encounter is from Those That Came Before. Its a pretty fun adventure, but it doesn't have a lot of combat encounters outside of the final boss which is an Ancient Red Shadow Dragon Paladin of Kyuss. Hence the ability to smite.

Well, you just convinced me to buy it and check it out. : ) MerricB's positive review (https://merricb.com/2018/01/02/5e-adventure-review-those-that-came-before/) of it didn't hurt either.

Edit: I like the presentation. The overview of the plot at the beginning is something I've previously wished WotC would do in their own adventures, and the suggested adjustments to monsters/encounters for various PC levels are also a good idea. So far I like this adventure from Alan Patrick more than any of the hardbacks I've bought from WotC.

Nitpick though: it's an Ancient Copper Dragon, not an Ancient Red Shadow Dragon, making it only about half as strong as I was expecting: much smaller and weaker breath weapon, no bonus action hide, no resistance to damage in darkness. Did your DM adjust it further?

[Waterdeep Merch]

I agree with your premise but saying a Level 20 Fighter has only 114.5 HP is true only if the Fighter has 10 CON, which is pretty dang uncommon. That Level 20 Fighter is much more likely to have 154-174 HP.

Let's say 154 HP for the HAM Fighter and 194 for the Tough one. Current HAM Fighter lasts 9-10 attacks at 17 damage per hit and the Tough Fighter lasts 10 attacks. That's fairly comparable, but it's worth noting that HAM scales better with CON investment than Tough does. The trade-off, of course, is that the extra Tough HP helps with other types of damage too.
Yeah, I was just trying to create a baseline that didn't assume anything else, even if it's not how most people play. The fact that HAM is that good even under those circumstances proves it's value, especially as a half-feat.

Letting magic armor block magical damage is a simple way to keep things effective without getting crazy. Blocking other damage sources ought to be a different feat entirely, I think. Though that kind of already does exist- Shield Master really helps out against Dexterity-based attacks, which are the bulk of non-B/P/S damage sources (as even creatures which deal other damage sources with attacks tend to also do B/P/S anyway).


And of course HAM scales with party healing capabilities too whereas the value of Tough is static.

(To those who say Tough isn't considered underpowered, I say, "have you seen Inspiring Leader?")
It stacks, though, and the sort of person that likes Tough probably won't be taking Inspiring Leader.

Which isn't to say it's amazing or anything. Tough is the sort of thing I always find I wish I had room for, but rarely do. Between ASI's and more dynamic feats, one that is merely good doesn't fit well.

I think if Tough also had +1 Con, it'd be taken a whole lot more often.

[sithlordnergal]

Well, you just convinced me to buy it and check it out. : ) MerricB's positive review (https://merricb.com/2018/01/02/5e-adventure-review-those-that-came-before/) of it didn't hurt either.

Edit: I like the presentation. The overview of the plot at the beginning is something I've previously wished WotC would do in their own adventures, and the suggested adjustments to monsters/encounters for various PC levels are also a good idea. So far I like this adventure from Alan Patrick more than any of the hardbacks I've bought from WotC.

Nitpick though: it's an Ancient Copper Dragon, not an Ancient Red Shadow Dragon, making it only about half as strong as I was expecting: much smaller and weaker breath weapon, no bonus action hide, no resistance to damage in darkness. Did your DM adjust it further?

He must have adjusted it a bit, I didn't get to see the stats of what we fought. I do remember getting downed a few times by it though from it doing Necrotic and Radiant damage...so The DM must have adjusted the stats. I think I prefer the adjusted stats to the base one, since it feels more like an evil Paladin. I will admit, I was going purely off a memory from May of 2018, so over a year ago...It probably was a Copper Dragon XD I do remember it doing a ton of Necrotic/Radiant damage though, cause that caught me off guard...and the fact that it downed my Paladin with melee attacks.

EDIT: Another fun one is the Broken Chains Series. It starts with Streams of Crimson and ends with a fight against Dendar the Night Serpant herself.

[Nagog]

Being as resistance to Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning damage is a class feature attainable with a barbarian dip, I'd be inclined to avoid that. But building off your suggestions and something e few above have suggested:

"While wearing heavy armor; As a reaction, reduce the amount of damage cause by an attack that deals to Slashing/Piercing/Blunt by a value equal to twice your proficiency bonus."

I'd personally avoid it using the reaction, as we already have things like Shield and Defensive Duelist and the like to use that, and if the enemy is hitting you with +5 to your AC (or +prof), DR of 4-12 is not going to help you. I could see this added on to current HAM and become a full feat, but as a standalone, it'd be competing with a whole new crowd of defensive options.


...but then would it be ham?...
Glad I'm not the only one to catch that. OP, was it intentional?

Yes, it was. I'm a fan of making my thread names puns. :)


I did some math with people on these forums a year or two ago that showed that HAM is only a bit less effective at high levels versus low levels since most of the upper CR threats deal their damage quota via multiattack, and it never stops being good at weathering mobs. Magic damage is fairly uncommon as it is outside of homebrew, but if you're looking for a buff, allowing magical heavy armor to block magical B/P/S seems fine.

The sort of heavy armor wearer that would be attracted to HAM are already super tough, I'd be wary of allowing a feat to trivialize damage any further than it does. If you're dead set on allowing them to cut upwards of 6 damage a swing at high levels, it really needs to stop being a half feat.

(WARNING: Messy math with wide, sweeping guesswork)

For comparison, Tough isn't usually considered underpowered. It can give you, at most, 40 HP. HAM will naturally meet or exceed that if you weather 34 blows. Average damage at CR 20 is around 40 per turn, and it's usually in at least two attacks for anything that's going to do B/P/S in the first place. A level 20 Fighter has an average of 114.5 HP. They should theoretically drop after five attacks. HAM would cut your standard CR 20 threat's damage down to roughly 17 per attack, and they would last seven attacks like this before going down. With Tough instead, at 154.5 HP, they will last eight attacks like this before going down.

If it scales all the way to +6, HAM will suddenly outdo Tough. While it still won't help against spells and any other non-B/P/S (which gives Tough a niche here, at least), that's way too good for a half feat.

In a straight comparison to Tough, Tough will always beat out HAM. HAM is limited to physical damage and does not scale with level. Tough can protect you against straight up anything that deals damage (Poison, spells, magic weapons, environmental hazards, whatever), while HAM will be exclusively useful in combat against low level enemies and a few types of traps. If your DM doesn't throw magical attacks your way and also resorts to throwing lots of small, non-magical attacks rather than literally anything else, HAM is better than Tough in every way.


And of course HAM scales with party healing capabilities too whereas the value of Tough is static.

(To those who say Tough isn't considered underpowered, I say, "have you seen Inspiring Leader?")

Did you switch those around? Tough grants extra HP that can be healed and scales with level, HAM is static and does not scale.
As for Tough being underpowered, consider that Tough's HP can be healed and you can add temp hp from other sources to it. Inspiring Leader's temp HP cannot be healed and does not stack with other temp HP, meaning an AoA Warlock will have to choose which source. Tough would scale with it. And on top of that, for personal survivability, Tough gives you more health past level 5 than Inspiring Leader does.

[Yunru]

while HAM will be exclusively useful in combat against low level enemies

Ummm... no.
Less than 1/3 of the entries in the monster manual do magical damage, not just the low level ones.

[JNAProductions]

HAM scales with healing because it prevents damage.

If I have a level 10 Fighter with 18 Con and Tough, they have 124 HP. If they're hit with 6 attacks over an encounter or two, dealing 2, 6, 18, 13, 4, and 1 points of damage, they've taken 44 points of damage and have 80 HP left. If they're then healed for 20, they have 100. They then take 4 more hits, for 4, 6, 19, and 3 damage, bringing them down to 68 HP. They need 56 points of healing to be back to full.

Let's replace that Fighter with one who took HAM. Everything else is the same, but they have 104 HP and DR 3 against physical damage. They take 0, 3, 15, 10, 1, and 0 points of damage the first time, dropping them to 75 HP-slightly worse than the Tough Fighter. Healed for 20, they're back to 95 HP. The next four hits do 1, 3, 16, and 0 damage, bringing them down to 75 HP. They need 29 points of healing to be back to full.

To put it simply, each HP of a HAM PC is worth more than a Tough PC, because of their DR.

[bid]

And on top of that, for personal survivability, Tough gives you more health past level 5 than Inspiring Leader does.
Tough at level 20: 40 hp, never regained by short rest nor long rest.
Inspiring leader at level 20: 25 thp per short rest for every member of the party.

One character taking inspiring leader has a bigger impact than 6 characters taking tough, as soon as you need to take a short rest to spend HD.


EDIT: cleaned invalid argument, thanks JNA.

[JNAProductions]

Nitpick: All HP returns on a long rest. So Tough does indeed let you regain extra HP on a long rest.

It's not hard to houserule differently, and I think it's an official variant in the DMG even, but it's not the base.

[Waterdeep Merch]

In a straight comparison to Tough, Tough will always beat out HAM. HAM is limited to physical damage and does not scale with level. Tough can protect you against straight up anything that deals damage (Poison, spells, magic weapons, environmental hazards, whatever), while HAM will be exclusively useful in combat against low level enemies and a few types of traps. If your DM doesn't throw magical attacks your way and also resorts to throwing lots of small, non-magical attacks rather than literally anything else, HAM is better than Tough in every way.

You know, I keep saying that not many things do magical B/P/S. I can't find any list online of this, either. So I've compiled some information relevant to all this from the MM. I would love corrections to this, as it was a labor of love extreme nerdiness and I want it to be perfect. I present the following without commentary-

Creatures in the Monster Manual that deal magical B/P/S-
Deva
Planetar
Solar
Couatl
Balor
Marilith
Erinyes
Pit Fiend
Empyrean
Githyanki Knight
Githzerai Monk
Githzerai Zerth
Clay Golem
Flesh Golem
Iron Golem
Stone Golem
Oni
Gray Slaad
Death Slaad
Androsphinx
Gynosphinx
Unicorn
Arcanoloth
Mezzoloth
Nycaloth
Ultroloth
Druid
27/492 (5.49% overall)

Creatures in the Monster Manual that can deal damage without dealing any mundane B/P/S at-will-
Deva
Planetar
Solar
Banshee
Beholder
Death Tyrant
Spectator
Cambion
Carrion Crawler
Couatl
Demilich
Balor
Marilith
Shadow Demon
Barbed Devil
Erinyes
Horned Devil
Pit Fiend
Fire Elemental
Drow Mage
Drow Priestess of Llolth
Empyrean
Flame Skull
Fomorian
Violet Fungus
Djinni
Efreeti
Ghost
Githyanki Knight
Githzerai Monk
Githzerai Zerth
Clay Golem
Flesh Golem
Iron Golem
Stone Golem
Green Hag
Night Hag
Sea Hag
Intellect Devourer
Kraken
Kuo-Toa Archpriest
Lich
Lizardfolk Shaman
Magmin
Mind Flayer
Mummy Lord
Bone Naga
Spirit Naga
Guardian Naga
Nothic
Oni
Gelatinous Cube
Shadow
Green Slaad
Gray Slaad
Death Slaad
Specter
Androsphinx
Gynosphinx
Unicorn
Variant: Vampire Spellcasters
Wight
Will-o'-Wisp
Wraith
Arcanoloth
Mezzoloth
Nycaloth
Ultroloth
Beholder Zombie
Acolyte
Archmage
Cult Fanatic
Druid
Mage
Priest
75/492 (15.24% overall)

Creatures in the Monster Manual that can deal damage besides non-magical B/P/S only sometimes, using a rechargeable/limited ability, not counting spells-
Ankheg (acid spray)
Behir (lightning breath)
Chimera (fire breath)
Death Knight (hellfire orb)
Vrock (spores)
Adult Blue Dracolich (lightning breath)
Young Red Shadow Dragon (shadow breath)
Ancient Black Dragon (acid breath)
Adult Black Dragon (acid breath)
Young Black Dragon (acid breath)
Black Dragon Wyrmling (acid breath)
Ancient Blue Dragon (lightning breath)
Adult Blue Dragon (lightning breath)
Young Blue Dragon (lightning breath)
Blue Dragon Wyrmling (lightning breath)
Ancient Green Dragon (poison breath)
Adult Green Dragon (poison breath)
Young Green Dragon (poison breath)
Green Dragon Wyrmling (poison breath)
Ancient Red Dragon (fire breath)
Adult Red Dragon (fire breath)
Young Red Dragon (fire breath)
Red Dragon Wyrmling (fire breath)
Ancient White Dragon (cold breath)
Adult White Dragon (cold breath)
Young White Dragon (cold breath)
White Dragon Wyrmling (cold breath)
Ancient Brass Dragon (fire breath)
Adult Brass Dragon (fire breath)
Young Brass Dragon (fire breath)
Brass Dragon Wyrmling (fire breath)
Ancient Bronze Dragon (lightning breath)
Adult Bronze Dragon (lightning breath)
Young Bronze Dragon (lightning breath)
Bronze Dragon Wyrmling (lightning breath)
Ancient Copper Dragon (acid breath)
Adult Copper Dragon (acid breath)
Young Copper Dragon (acid breath)
Copper Dragon Wyrmling (acid breath)
Ancient Gold Dragon (fire breath)
Adult Gold Dragon (fire breath)
Young Gold Dragon (fire breath)
Gold Dragon Wyrmling (fire breath)
Ancient Silver Dragon (cold breath)
Adult Silver Dragon (cold breath)
Young Silver Dragon (cold breath)
Silver Dragon Wyrmling (cold breath)
Dragon Turtle (steam breath)
Storm Giant (lightning strike)
Half-Red Dragon Veteran (fire breath)
Hell Hound (fire breath)
Ice Mephit (frost breath)
Magma Mephit (fire breath)
Steam Mephit (steam breath)
Remhoraz (swallow)
Fire Snake (heated body)
Salamander (heated body)
Succubus/Incubus (draining kiss)
Yeti (chilling gaze)
Abominable Yeti (chilling gaze, cold breath)
Winter Wolf (cold breath)
61/492 (added with previous, 27.64%)

Maybe I'll do Volo's tomorrow.

[Zhorn]

Being as resistance to Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning damage is a class feature attainable with a barbarian dip, I'd be inclined to avoid that. But building off your suggestions and something e few above have suggested:

"While wearing heavy armor; As a reaction, reduce the amount of damage cause by an attack that deals to Slashing/Piercing/Blunt by a value equal to twice your proficiency bonus."I'd personally avoid it using the reaction, as we already have things like Shield and Defensive Duelist and the like to use that, and if the enemy is hitting you with +5 to your AC (or +prof), DR of 4-12 is not going to help you. I could see this added on to current HAM and become a full feat, but as a standalone, it'd be competing with a whole new crowd of defensive options.

That's a perfectly fair critique.

This is mostly just me thinking out loud on this, so apologies if is a little jumbled..

Wording on it could use some modifications to make it more appealing, and set it up in a way that make it suit more as a dot point to convert HAM into a full feat deserving of a Reaction usage.
The flavour I picture about is it giving a reliable (but not TOO powerful) damage soak option.
Barbarian Rage giving resistance to half damage
Shield / Defensive Duelist for those AC damage avoidance
Shield Master has the Evasion equivalent

The identity of HAM giving a beefy damage reduction option sounds like an interesting take on the theme while still holding a different identity to the other options.
Outright avoidance will always be the preferable option, as it doesn't matter how strong a hit is when it misses.
Resistance comes second when it comes to large hits that cannot be avoided. But if you have a small to medium hit, a deduction may prove to be more beneficial in the long run if the DR is consistently higher than half the damage of the hit.

That 4-12 also might not seem like much, but I do worry about trying to push it too high.
Each attack is already taking a -3 damage modifier, so the effective reduction is 7-15 points of damage, which if doing each turn is a pretty hefty chunk of effective hit points (equivalent of resistance for 14-30 damage hits). Maybe a variation on Monk's Deflect Missiles (1d10+Dex+Monk Lvl).
I know people have mixed opinions on them, but I always think proficiency dice (DMG, p263) should have a place in player mechanics.

Reaction for 2x Proficiency dice DR (on top of the -3 the feat is giving at baseline)


Proficiency Bonus
Proficiency Dice
Damage reduction range


+2
d4
5-11


+3
d6
5-15


+4
d8
5-19


+5
d10
5-25


+6
d12
5-27

[Gignere]

HAM scales with healing because it prevents damage.

If I have a level 10 Fighter with 18 Con and Tough, they have 124 HP. If they're hit with 6 attacks over an encounter or two, dealing 2, 6, 18, 13, 4, and 1 points of damage, they've taken 44 points of damage and have 80 HP left. If they're then healed for 20, they have 100. They then take 4 more hits, for 4, 6, 19, and 3 damage, bringing them down to 68 HP. They need 56 points of healing to be back to full.

Let's replace that Fighter with one who took HAM. Everything else is the same, but they have 104 HP and DR 3 against physical damage. They take 0, 3, 15, 10, 1, and 0 points of damage the first time, dropping them to 75 HP-slightly worse than the Tough Fighter. Healed for 20, they're back to 95 HP. The next four hits do 1, 3, 16, and 0 damage, bringing them down to 75 HP. They need 29 points of healing to be back to full.

To put it simply, each HP of a HAM PC is worth more than a Tough PC, because of their DR.

Great example but if OP didn’t realize that HAM scales it’s why he even suggested the buff. He is not well versed in the idea of effective hps or rounds of survival and this is an important concept to consider when thinking or modeling suggested change impacts to a game system.

[Aimeryan]

I think one of the reasons HAM doesn't get more love is because in homebrew campaigns you are far more likely to see combats with single or few enemies, since recycling enemies already defeated is less interesting than fighting new ones.

There is also the problem that the really deadly fights for most users who would otherwise take HAM are magical ones, which HAM does nothing for.

Lastly, as a half feat it punishes those who do not want to boost Strength with ASIs/Feats but do use Heavy Armour - Paladins are an example; Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Hexblade dip is very common, here, while ASIs/Feats go elsewhere than boosting Strength.


Maybe something like this might be an option:


Full Feat (no +1 Strength)
Passive -3 damage against all damage except Psychic, while wearing Heavy Armour.
Reaction to add proficiency to damage reduction until next turn against a specified target.

This should make it more attractive in general without making it overpowered. The choice component also makes it more interesting.

[Lupine]

You owe me a beer to replace the one I just sprayed onto my screen.


What's this "beer" you speak of? Here in 5e, we drink ALE

[Theodoxus]

Tough at level 20: 40 hp, never regained by short rest nor long rest.
Inspiring leader at level 20: 25 thp per short rest for every member of the party.

One character taking inspiring leader has a bigger impact than 6 characters taking tough, as soon as you need to take a short rest to spend HD.


EDIT: cleaned invalid argument, thanks JNA.

If there was only 1 feat allowed per character, you'd have a point... fortunately, you can take Tough, Inspiring Leader AND HAM all on the same character! And Sentinel and PAM too! And even GWM if you're a fighter :smallwink:

[Foxhound438]

Start with a cow instead of a pig.

As a DM I would never allow this, as HAM is inherently made of pork. A cured beef roast would be an acceptable substitute though.


What I would do for a player if they wanted to take HAM would be to let them add a magical armor set's +X to the amount reduced in addition to the AC, as well as let it apply to B/P/S regardless of magic or non. It doesn't necessarily come up too much, but it does suck when it does for the HAM user. I'd also maybe try to come up with a way to let it apply to certain elemental types as well, but without having the situation in front of me to work with I'm not sure how exactly I would do that.