Replace spells for Divine Soul Sorcerer + Cleric multiclass

[Theaitetos]

Hello, this is my first post (after "Hello") and a long time of lurking.

I have a question about replacing spells on a multiclass Divine Soul Sorcerer + Cleric (Life). In Xanathar's Guide to Everything, it says about the Divine Magic subclass feature:


When your Spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcerer cantrip or a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose the new spell from the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you.

It says the newly chosen spell becomes a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn't say that it ever stops being a sorcerer spell for you, even if you replace it with another spell later. I know Cure Wounds as a cleric spell (Life domain) and as a sorcerer spell. If I now replace Cure Wounds for another sorcerer spell on a new level, wouldn't it still remain a sorcerer spell for me? And if so, can I replace it with another sorcerer spell again next level, since I have it always known and prepared (Life domain) despite replacing it?

[firelistener]

Good question. You'll want to consult page 164 in the Player's Handbook. Real quick, here's a relevant excerpt:

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Your question here is about spells known, so the answer is that they are maintained separately. In your Cure Wounds example, replacing the spell as part of the Sorcerer class will always maintain the spell as a Sorcerer spell. You would still "know" the spell as a Cleric spell since Clerics always have access to the entire list when choosing to prepare spells, and have no limitation of the number of leveled spells within that list in the way Wizards or Sorcerers do. You can look at the Cleric leveling table and see they only have a number for "cantrips known", and not "spells known".

As for your second question about replacing it a second time, the answer is definitely "no" based on the above.

[Theaitetos]

Thank you for the answer.

I am aware of this restriction, but I'm unsure if it applies here. The class feature says that this spell you chose as a sorcerer (e.g. Cure Wounds) becomes a sorcerer spell for you. So even after you replace it, the spell is still a sorcerer spell for you. It's not so much about spells known, but whether it counts as a sorcerer spell.

For example, when you cast such a cleric spell that also counts as a sorcerer spell, you could use a holy symbol or an arcane focus for it (e.g. if Cure Wounds had a M component), right?

Or – independent from multiclassing as a Cleric – say you once learned an exclusive 5th-level cleric spell (e.g. Flamestrike) but replaced it later, you could still cast it from a spell scroll without a check, since it's still on your (sorcerer) class spell list, right?

[Fryy]

It says the newly chosen spell becomes a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn't say that it ever stops being a sorcerer spell for you, even if you replace it with another spell later.

That's true; it sure doesn't.

[Nagog]

Thank you for the answer.

I am aware of this restriction, but I'm unsure if it applies here. The class feature says that this spell you chose as a sorcerer (e.g. Cure Wounds) becomes a sorcerer spell for you. So even after you replace it, the spell is still a sorcerer spell for you. It's not so much about spells known, but whether it counts as a sorcerer spell.

For example, when you cast such a cleric spell that also counts as a sorcerer spell, you could use a holy symbol or an arcane focus for it (e.g. if Cure Wounds had a M component), right?

Or – independent from multiclassing as a Cleric – say you once learned an exclusive 5th-level cleric spell (e.g. Flamestrike) but replaced it later, you could still cast it from a spell scroll without a check, since it's still on your (sorcerer) class spell list, right?

So if I'm understanding correctly, the main question is if you can swap out the Cure Wounds spell you learn from Cleric levels for a Sorcerer spell level because technically it is still a sorcerer spell for you because you used to know it as a sorcerer spell? Did I get that right?

If so, I'd rule as a DM that you know them differently. Mechanically, the point of the Sorcerer Subclass is to open up a whole new spell list for you to cast via your character's innate connection to such magics, meaning they manifest from that source (mechanically, from your CHA). However, your Cleric side learns to produce the same effects manually through devotion and piety (mechanically your WIS).
For a real world example, let's say you've just finished a morning run (Deity forbid we engage in physical activity, but I digress). To cool off, your body has the capacity to produce sweat from sweat glands that absorb the heat and evaporate, effectively cooling your body. However, you could also douse yourself in cool water, and that water would absorb the heat and evaporate, producing the same effect in much the same way. However, you could not make your sweat glands produce cool water or your faucet to produce sweat. Neither of them work that way.

Does that make sense? I apologize if it doesn't, it's past midnight and I just finished DMing a long session, I'm a bit out of it XD

As for the scroll bit, I haven't really had scrolls come into play in my games, so I have no idea. O.o

[Anymage]

I am aware of this restriction, but I'm unsure if it applies here. The class feature says that this spell you chose as a sorcerer (e.g. Cure Wounds) becomes a sorcerer spell for you. So even after you replace it, the spell is still a sorcerer spell for you. It's not so much about spells known, but whether it counts as a sorcerer spell.

How I read it, you have two copies. One that counts as a sorcerer spell, one that counts as a cleric spell. The sorcerer copy can be swapped out as usual on level up, but the cleric copy remains untouched. And while you have both copies, you can chose whether to cast it boosted by Wis or Cha.


For example, when you cast such a cleric spell that also counts as a sorcerer spell, you could use a holy symbol or an arcane focus for it (e.g. if Cure Wounds had a M component), right?

Since it counts as a sorcerer spell, it uses the rules for sorcerer casting. Including an arcane focus as a material component, but not a holy symbol. (Many DMs will let you use a holy symbol as a focus as a divine soul sorcerer, but that doesn't matter if you want to talk the strictest RAW.)

In fact, if you happened to have Bane as both a cleric and a sorcerer spell, and somehow couldn't prick yourself for the required material component, what focus you could find would have a real mechanical impact. If you only had a holy symbol, you could only cast it with a Wis based saving throw. With only an arcane focus, you could only cast it with a Cha based saving throw. Two distinct copies, with only the subtlest difference between them.


Or – independent from multiclassing as a Cleric – say you once learned an exclusive 5th-level cleric spell (e.g. Flamestrike) but replaced it later, you could still cast it from a spell scroll without a check, since it's still on your (sorcerer) class spell list, right?

Treating us only as super legalistic computers? Without a removal clause, it's forever after on the sorcerer list for you.

Of course, if you're trying to use super legalistic RAW against your DM, you have a problem. In much the same way that most DMs in practice will let you use a holy symbol for your divine soul sorcerer, you shouldn't have too many problems if you ask for the ability to count as knowing the whole cleric list for the purposes of using magic items. Being upfront about your goals is a lot better than trying to force them through legalese.

[firelistener]

Thank you for the answer.

I am aware of this restriction, but I'm unsure if it applies here. The class feature says that this spell you chose as a sorcerer (e.g. Cure Wounds) becomes a sorcerer spell for you. So even after you replace it, the spell is still a sorcerer spell for you. It's not so much about spells known, but whether it counts as a sorcerer spell.

For example, when you cast such a cleric spell that also counts as a sorcerer spell, you could use a holy symbol or an arcane focus for it (e.g. if Cure Wounds had a M component), right?

Or – independent from multiclassing as a Cleric – say you once learned an exclusive 5th-level cleric spell (e.g. Flamestrike) but replaced it later, you could still cast it from a spell scroll without a check, since it's still on your (sorcerer) class spell list, right?

I'm going to maintain that the answer is no for it still counting as a sorcerer spell after you replace it on your sorcerer spell list. Your lists are maintained separately. There is no breaking that rule. Your Cleric version of Cure Wounds has absolutely nothing to do with your Sorcerer version of it. Your example is the exact same as any other multiclass where two classes share a spell between their lists, and the same rules apply. The only difference here is that a Divine Souls sorcerer can choose a few extra spells of the Cleric list and count them as Sorcerer spells.

Specifically for your spell scroll example, I would rule that you could cast it without a skill check because it's on your list of available spells. I would allow that for the cleric spells you hadn't even picked yet as sorcerer spells because they are on your list of available spells. All the other limitations, such as which focus to use when casting, would require you "know" the spell and cast the specific variant for that class.

[Theaitetos]

Does that make sense? I apologize if it doesn't, it's past midnight and I just finished DMing a long session, I'm a bit out of it XD

As for the scroll bit, I haven't really had scrolls come into play in my games, so I have no idea. O.o

It makes sense, yes, thank you.

I thought it was normal to have lots of scrolls and potions, since they are everywhere in the D&D videogames. :smallconfused:


I'm going to maintain that the answer is no for it still counting as a sorcerer spell after you replace it on your sorcerer spell list. Your lists are maintained separately. There is no breaking that rule. Your Cleric version of Cure Wounds has absolutely nothing to do with your Sorcerer version of it. Your example is the exact same as any other multiclass where two classes share a spell between their lists, and the same rules apply. The only difference here is that a Divine Souls sorcerer can choose a few extra spells of the Cleric list and count them as Sorcerer spells.

It definitely is still a sorcerer spell, since the feature says nothing about that characteristic being removed when replacing the spell. It's no longer a Sorcerer Known Spell but still a sorcerer spell like other non-chosen sorcerer spells.

I still think it's somewhat different than other multiclass casters. It's more like the Bard's Magical Secrets feature, just with less restrictions with regards to the Spell Known table. You choose a specific spell on the cleric spell list and the DSS feature turns this cleric spell into a sorcerer spell: Cure Wounds (cleric) → Cure Wounds (sorcerer). Does this spell still count as a cleric spell afterwards?


Specifically for your spell scroll example, I would rule that you could cast it without a skill check because it's on your list of available spells. I would allow that for the cleric spells you hadn't even picked yet as sorcerer spells because they are on your list of available spells. All the other limitations, such as which focus to use when casting, would require you "know" the spell and cast the specific variant for that class.

That would certainly make things much easier, less confusing, and more similar to other class features (like extended spell lists for Warlock patrons). But why do the DSS subclass rules not simply say "Add the cleric spell list to your sorcerer spell list"? I thought it might be to prevent a DSS from choosing the Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) feat and thereby gaining all the cleric rituals as well.:smallconfused: