Is it just me, or is slow a lot stronger than haste?

[holywhippet]

Consider this scenario: Bob the fighter has reached level 20 and is carrying around a scimitar of speed. His buddy, Tim the wizard, always casts haste on Bob as soon as a fight begins. However, an enemy wizard then manages to inflict a slow spell on Bob. Without the slow spell in effect Bob can make 4 weapon attacks with his action, an attack with his bonus action thanks to the scimitar of speed and an attack using the haste power. He could even spend an action surge and make another 4 attacks. This gives him 10 attacks per turn for two turns in battle and 6 attacks for the rest of the time.

The slow spell though? It only allows one attack per turn. Period. So Bob now drops to one attack per turn regardless of his other abilities and items. Is it just me or does that make slow a lot more powerful than haste? Admittedly it only does so for creatures with multiple attacks.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

One is auto success and the other have a save.

The auto success is normally weaker.

Slow is a heavy debuff, but stuff get a save from it.

[Sindal]

Slow and haste are about the same level of power. Slow can definently ruin an enemy's day though.

People just prefer haste because of its reliable and predictable nature. A cannon that misses sometimes or a sniper rifle that never misses.

Slow ''can" not work. Haste always works because it goes on an ally. Becuase sometimes your strapped for choice (like sorcerors for example) you have to pick stuff you know will definitely get results.

Having both would be ideal. Neutralise a mob best case, or give your striker more zoom.

[Anymage]

Also remember that Slow allows a saving throw at the end of each round to shake it off. Given how quickly it can be expected to wear off, it would be garbage if it were only an inverted Haste.

[Reynaerde]

Note that you are comparing Haste cast by an ally to Slow cast by an enemy. A better comparison, in my opinion, would be with that same wizard casting Slow in that same combat instead of Haste.

[Mordaedil]

It's worth noting that the slow effect is also going to be applied to characters that are going to get thinned out, while haste can keep going even after the first wave, while you might only get a handful of characters with slow.

Of course, duration is also a concern with haste, but slow isn't much better in that respect.

[diplomancer]

Slow is probably better than haste in short combats, around 3-4 rounds (where the creatures being affected even for only 2 rounds is significant) but worse in longer combats, as you will get more bang for your buck with haste.

In my experience, the more difficult and relevant combats tend to be longer but YMMV.

[jaappleton]

They’re both pretty great.

I personally much prefer Slow, and think others underrate it.

Haste is one target, unless you’re a Sorcerer with Twin Metamagic. It’s one extra attack, an AC bonus and a speed bonus, but comes with a penalty when Concentration is broken.

Slow is an AC penalty, messes up enemy reactions, a small penalty to Dex saves, really screws up enemy spellcasters and is incredibly detrimental to heavy hitters.

In 5E monster design, enemy spell casters and “lots of HP enemies who are only threatening because they hit a lot for a lot of damage” are two of the most common enemy types you’ll face. Slow takes the wind out of their sails, and renders them pretty useless.

My table is finishing up a Curse of Strahd campaign and Slow has saved us so many resources. It turned some boss battles into complete easy mode, to the point where we looked at the DM after two rounds and said, “Where’s the rest of the fight?”

Yeah, enemies get a save at the end their turn. You can argue Hypnotic Pattern is better. But you can kick someone’s ass while they’re under Slow and not break the spell, unlike Hypnotic Pattern.

HP is better for sneaking by, Slow is better for a battle.

[Finback]

"Bob the fighter"

CAN WE SLASH IT

"Bob the fighter"

YES WE CAN

[Aelyn]

Note that you are comparing Haste cast by an ally to Slow cast by an enemy. A better comparison, in my opinion, would be with that same wizard casting Slow in that same combat instead of Haste.

It's also notable that this comparison uses a lv 20 Fighter with a Scimitar as the basis for comparison - a build with about as many attacks crammed in as theoretically possible, and therefore the best possible basis of comparison to make Slow look good compared to Haste (well, other than dedicated casters!)

A character with 5 attacks per turn base obviously gets a relatively small boost from Haste, in terms of efficiency increase (+20%), and a significant penalty from Slow in terms of efficiency decrease (-80%)

On the other hand, using the same spells on a lv 6 Barbarian means that Haste gives +50% efficiency while Slow gives -50% efficiency. Slow's still got the slightly more powerful effect - reducing efficiency has a bigger impact than increasing it by the same amount, generally speaking - but allows saving throws, which balances it somewhat.

And if you use them on a rapier-wielding Rogue who only has a single attack? Haste gives maybe +60% extra efficiency (depending on Sneak Attack damage and odds of hitting) while Slow doesn't debuff damage output at all.

That's not to say that Slow is bad, it's just important to recognise whether the point of comparison is reasonable and typical. Otherwise, the conclusions drawn may be misleading. The OP did kind of address this with the last sentence, but it felt like a bit of a glossed-over footnote.

[ImproperJustice]

I really like how slow has a large aoe that selectively allows you to target enemies within.
Both are good, but Slow sees more mileage in our games.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will say that haste is stronger on a single attack damage dealers then on a multiple attacks damage dealers.

Haste on a crit fisher paladin/barbarian will probably ride off more enemies then the 6 you can slow.

The paladin and the barbarian get 50%(33% if they have bonus action attack) more attacks to use vs the fighter that get 25%(20% with BA attack) and way less on Action Surge turns.

Of course some magic items can tip the balance (a fighter with outh bow and SS and EA will do a lot more with haste then slow most of the time IMO).

For example:
We got black razor for our LE barbarian for a short time at level 5, the sorcerer did the most damage in the fight because he hasted the barbarian (the second most damage, right after the barbarian).

But hit a caster and his brut with slow and bane and they worth nothing.


Ok, I am going back and forth, they are both great, just need to be used in the right station.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It's also notable that this comparison uses a lv 20 Fighter with a Scimitar as the basis for comparison - a build with about as many attacks crammed in as theoretically possible, and therefore the best possible basis of comparison to make Slow look good compared to Haste (well, other than dedicated casters!)

A character with 5 attacks per turn base obviously gets a relatively small boost from Haste, in terms of efficiency increase (+20%), and a significant penalty from Slow in terms of efficiency decrease (-80%)

On the other hand, using the same spells on a lv 6 Barbarian means that Haste gives +50% efficiency while Slow gives -50% efficiency. Slow's still got the slightly more powerful effect - reducing efficiency has a bigger impact than increasing it by the same amount, generally speaking - but allows saving throws, which balances it somewhat.

And if you use them on a rapier-wielding Rogue who only has a single attack? Haste gives maybe +60% extra efficiency (depending on Sneak Attack damage and odds of hitting) while Slow doesn't debuff damage output at all.

That's not to say that Slow is bad, it's just important to recognise whether the point of comparison is reasonable and typical. Otherwise, the conclusions drawn may be misleading. The OP did kind of address this with the last sentence, but it felt like a bit of a glossed-over footnote.
You also have the exploit where the rogue spends his action to “ready” and attack when the enemy acts and then spends his hasted action to attack normally. Because SA is once per turn and not per round the rogue gets SA twice.

[AdAstra]

Slow has the nice bonus of working on any creatures, unlike most AOE spells, and is overall pretty great. It does however run into issues with getting the most effectiveness out of it.

It’s limited by being both an AOE and having a set number of targets. It’s a pretty big AOE and hits a lot of targets, but against large groups of weak foes, you won’t get as much effect (due to getting a smaller proportion of enemies and reduced impact on each enemy). Against a small number of powerful foes, you might not even have six potential targets. And if the enemy is sufficiently spread out, you might not be able to get six anyway, or might not be able to select all your preferred targets. Have a spellcaster 60 feet away while a melee powerhouse pounds your Paladin? You’ll just have to settle for one and their bodyguards. One cannot assume you’ll be able to debuff the six strongest monsters in any encounter.

Slow barely affects certain creatures, and few creatures will be impacted by all of its effects. No bonus actions? that effect is wasted. Only one weapon attack? Slow can’t affect their offense. Attacks at range or is already in melee? The reduced speed is less impactful (though still possible to take advantage of if you use even basic tactics). Can’t have your spellcasting impaired if you don’t have any. The only “universal” debuffs of Slow are the penalty to AC and saves (depending on circumstances these can be negligible though) and no opportunity attacks (easy to take advantage of in combination with the reduced speed, but you have to actually do so). Chances are, you’ll get a lot of benefit, but you’ll need to choose good targets to get the most from it.

Overall, Slow is a solid spell that unfortunately is a lot more powerful being used ON the party than by it. PCs are almost universally going to be utterly devastated by a successful Slow. The fighter and monk will cry, the non-fighty casters will curse at you, barbarians rangers and paladins will be shaking their fists, clerics will sigh, and the rogue will either shrug their shoulders (shooting at people in melee) or crap their pants (caught in melee alone). If the casters had some powerful persistent effect up (like sunbeam or spirit guardians), then it’s only a huge pain.

[dragoeniex]

Overall, Slow is a solid spell that unfortunately is a lot more powerful being used ON the party than by it.

I disagree. While it does somewhat depend on targets, Slow has ruined several enemies' days in our current campaign, and I find it more consistently potent than Hypnotic Pattern- especially at higher levels.

My character has both Slow and Haste, and the former gets used in battle far more often. The latter is reserved more for helping the monk run down escaping enemies.

[JackPhoenix]

Now imagine that instead of Bob the level 20 fighter, it's Alice the level 20 rogue. Slow doesn't really do anything, she's had only one attack anyway. Yes, she'll lose her bonus action, but that only matters for attacks if she uses TWF. Now, with Haste, she gets additional action. She could use this to ready an attack, which grants her off-turn 10d6 sneak attack plus whatever damage she normally does with an attack.

[AdAstra]

I disagree. While it does somewhat depend on targets, Slow has ruined several enemies' days in our current campaign, and I find it more consistently potent than Hypnotic Pattern- especially at higher levels.

My character has both Slow and Haste, and the former gets used in battle far more often. The latter is reserved more for helping the monk run down escaping enemies.

I, went out of my way to specifically mention that it’s a great spell. Like, in general. I’m not sure where the miscommunication happened here. It’s just that PCs are far more reliant on multiattack, action economy, and spellcasting than enemies are on average, so the spell hits them harder if someone were to cast it on them. Six is also usually enough to get every member of the party, or at least most of them, and you rarely have less than 3 PCs to target. There is no class that can’t be devastated by a failed save to Slow and the application of tactics, while plenty of monsters are affected far less.

[MaxWilson]

Haste is pretty lame if you're using it to make one extra attack with your normal weapon, and pretty awesome if you're using it to either:

(1) Hide after your attack sequence (e.g. if you're a Skulker or have total cover) so enemies cannot target you + you get advantage next time you shoot at them;

(2) Disengage away from melee enemies so they cannot hit you;

(3) Gain advantage before your attack sequence by throwing a net on enemies to restrain them. (May or may not work depending on how the DM interprets the "only one attack" clause of the net. I wouldn't let it work but I understand there are many DMs on these forums who would. Does not work at all on enemies of size Huge+.)

Additionally, Haste doesn't have to contend with legendary resistance.


Slow is an AC penalty, messes up enemy reactions, a small penalty to Dex saves, really screws up enemy spellcasters and is incredibly detrimental to heavy hitters.

Can you explain what you mean by "incredibly detrimental to heavy hitters"? An Annis Hag hits at +8 for effectively 72ish HP of damage on a hit (Crushing Hug, half damage now and half damage at the start of the Annis's next turn). As far as I can see, Slow does absolutely nothing to an Annis's offense except prevent opportunity attacks, making her easier to kite, but if you get into melee range of her you're still toast. I.e. it looks like heavy hitters are the worst possible targets for slow--you really want to use it against something like a Star Spawn Mangler that has lots of medium-strength attacks instead of a heavy hitter with one huge attack.

When you said "heavy hitters" did you mean "creatures reliant on multiattack", or something else?

[dragoeniex]

I, went out of my way to specifically mention that it’s a great spell. Like, in general. I’m not sure where the miscommunication happened here. It’s just that PCs are far more reliant on multiattack, action economy, and spellcasting than enemies are on average, so the spell hits them harder if someone were to cast it on them. Six is also usually enough to get every member of the party, or at least most of them, and you rarely have less than 3 PCs to target. There is no class that can’t be devastated by a failed save to Slow and the application of tactics, while plenty of monsters are affected far less.

Ah, apologies, it was more a miscommunication on my end; I could have made that clearer. The only part I disagree on is that it is "often" more effectively used against PCs than by them. That may be the case some of the time, but it can also ruin certain enemies more than it can ruin a team of PCs with a varied assortment of skills an options. If a foe can only attack-attack-attack or cast a spell, they're going to be hurting something fierce, and they usually have less options than a PC with their interesting and ever-growing list of abilities.

Your assessment was alright. It just didn't match up to my experience in terms of frequency with which the spell can cripple enemies.

[DarknessEternal]

Slow is for npcs whose existence is only to drain resources from players.

Haste is for players because it always works.

[jaappleton]

I want to go into detail what Slow did in an encounter in my Curse of Strahd game.

Baba Lysaga and her Creeping Hut.

Considered to be, by a fairly large margin, the most difficult fight in the adventure. Strahd is nothing compared to this fight. There's items you're supposed to get to help defeat Strahd, but with Baba Lysaga? Nope. You're on your own. And while technically avoidable, good luck avoiding her if one of the items needed to help kill Strahd is in her location.

She's a very powerful mage, a 16th level spellcaster.
She also has a bigass construct of a tree with her that has +12 to attack rolls, hits three times, for 30 damage per swing. Its not a fun battle, and for the unprepared, it's incredibly deadly.

The module only goes to level 10, at the most, and many finish the adventure around level 8. Its also very sandbox-y, so you're able to encounter her at level... 4? Maybe 3?

My group was level 8.

Everyone held their turn to go after me. I cast Slow on the two of them. They both failed the initial save, thankfully. She tried casting Lightning Bolt on us, rolled an 11, had to wait until next round to actually cast it. Tree was only able to make one attack. The 5 other party members were able to absolutely decimate Baba Lysaga in that turn, after I cast Slow. She was still alive, but very bloody. Instead of firing off lightning bolt, she tried escaping via Misty Step. Rolled a 14, couldn't cast that one either. Creeping Hut gets one single attack, its now dealt 60 damage as opposed to 180 its capable of in two rounds. Party finished off Lysaga, and then I cast Dispel Magic on the tree to suppress any lingering magic animating it.

Lysaga did zero damage and cast zero spells.
Creeping Hut did two attacks instead of six, 60 damage as opposed to 180.

That's considered a Deadly Encounter for 8th level PCs, I believe.


That's what Slow can do.

[Dessunri]

They’re both pretty great.

I personally much prefer Slow, and think others underrate it.

Haste is one target, unless you’re a Sorcerer with Twin Metamagic. It’s one extra attack, an AC bonus and a speed bonus, but comes with a penalty when Concentration is broken.

Slow is an AC penalty, messes up enemy reactions, a small penalty to Dex saves, really screws up enemy spellcasters and is incredibly detrimental to heavy hitters.

In 5E monster design, enemy spell casters and “lots of HP enemies who are only threatening because they hit a lot for a lot of damage” are two of the most common enemy types you’ll face. Slow takes the wind out of their sails, and renders them pretty useless.

My table is finishing up a Curse of Strahd campaign and Slow has saved us so many resources. It turned some boss battles into complete easy mode, to the point where we looked at the DM after two rounds and said, “Where’s the rest of the fight?”

Yeah, enemies get a save at the end their turn. You can argue Hypnotic Pattern is better. But you can kick someone’s ass while they’re under Slow and not break the spell, unlike Hypnotic Pattern.

HP is better for sneaking by, Slow is better for a battle.

I'm in agreement in that I personally prefer Slow over Haste. We were going through Storm King's Thunder and (minor spoilers?) were fighting giants almost every other session either on purpose or by accident. Being able to drop a slow in the middle of 3 or 4 fire giants makes them a lot less scary for our group. Couple that with me being a divination wizard it could assure at least one fail (usually) and sometimes two if my portent dice were both low. Removing 4 attacks from your enemies who hit like a mack truck is way better than adding just one attack from your group.

[Frozenstep]

-snip-

Great example. Slow is a spell that scales with how difficult the enemy is (for the most part. In my experience, stronger foes get more attacks for the most part, or gain access to stronger spells), while haste scales with how strong your party members are and better with specific classes.

And honestly, in tougher fights, I've stopped using haste, the risk of me losing concentration is no longer a function of how good my con saving throw is, but how good my wisdom/charisma saves are.

[Willie the Duck]

I think, overall, the benefit of Haste is that you are affecting known quantities. No save, it just works. No need to worry about opponent group composition (either numbers or wis-save strength). Likewise, you already know who is in your party and who would benefit the most from it. And you get to plan for how you would use it. The instant the party caster learns the spell, the players can start figuring out what they would do with a constrained extra action, if they got one.

[jaappleton]

I think, overall, the benefit of Haste is that you are affecting known quantities. No save, it just works. No need to worry about opponent group composition (either numbers or wis-save strength). Likewise, you already know who is in your party and who would benefit the most from it. And you get to plan for how you would use it. The instant the party caster learns the spell, the players can start figuring out what they would do with a constrained extra action, if they got one.

But its not an extra action.

Its an extra attack.

If you got a whole 'nother action, like Action Surge, to where you could cast another spell? Haste's usefulness is raised exponentially.

But considering its only another attack, half the classes in the game essentially shouldn't be getting Hasted.

[NaughtyTiger]

I want to go into detail what Slow did in an encounter in my Curse of Strahd game.
I want to go into less detail what Slow did in an encounter in my Tomb of Annhilation game (Risen Mists is great!).

We got into combat with 6 dracotaurs, my wizard dropped Slow on a group of 5 of them.
3 made their save on the first round. we battled 4 full dracotaurs and 2 weak ones. 10 attacks instead of 12.
we felled 1 affected, 1 unaffected.
the next round, the affected made its save, so 10 attacks.

in all, a 3rd level spell to stop 2 attacks.

that is also what slow can do in a game.

[jaappleton]

I want to go into less detail what Slow did in an encounter in my Tomb of Annhilation game (Risen Mists is great!).

We got into combat with 6 dracotaurs, my wizard dropped Slow on a group of 5 of them.
3 made their save on the first round. we battled 4 full dracotaurs and 2 weak ones. 10 attacks instead of 12.
we felled 1 affected, 1 unaffected.
the next round, the affected made its save, so 10 attacks.

in all, a 3rd level spell to stop 2 attacks.

that is also what slow can do in a game.

As opposed to the singular extra what, 9 damage Haste would've done per round? For how many rounds? 3?

So 2 enemy attacks VS an extra potential 27 damage across a battle?

Yes, Slow is a bit of a gamble because the enemy gets a save at the end of their turn but its ceiling of reward is also much, much higher than Haste.

[Willie the Duck]

But its not an extra action.

Its an extra attack.

If you got a whole 'nother action, like Action Surge, to where you could cast another spell? Haste's usefulness is raised exponentially.

But considering its only another attack, half the classes in the game essentially shouldn't be getting Hasted.

I was using the term action colloquially, not as a game-defined term. However, the wording is* specifically "gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to...", which IMO fits the definition of 'constrained extra action' pretty darn well.
*from here (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Haste#content), since AFB

As others have said, if all you can find to do with haste is make an extra attack, then yes its overall effectiveness is much lessoned.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

That's what Slow can do.

No, it's not. Slow does nothing against bonus action spells, so Misty Step should've worked.

And "holding your turn" is a houserule.


But its not an extra action.

Its an extra attack.

It's an extra attack if you decide to use the action to attack. It's also one extra Dash, Disengate, Hide or Use an Object if you decide to use the action for that instead.

[jaappleton]

No, it's not. Slow does nothing against bonus action spells, so Misty Step should've worked.

And "holding your turn" is a houserule.

Hm. You're right about that, Misty should've worked.

I'd say my overall point still stands, though.

[Xihirli]

Don't underestimate what your martial buddy can do with one more attack.

[MaxWilson]

No, it's not. Slow does nothing against bonus action spells, so Misty Step should've worked.

And "holding your turn" is a houserule.

Also, the party got really lucky there with Baby Lysaga and her hut failing four Wisdom saving throws between them AND both of her spell rolls. "I got lucky" can happen with any spell, and when it does you want it to be one with a large impact.

The main advantage of Slow over Hypnotic Pattern or Fear in this scenario is that it works on things that are immune to fear/charm (e.g. the hut), but so do Polymorph and Confusion, and Confusion has a stronger effect (Confusion = ~80% reduction in effectiveness) while Polymorph is both versatile (good for buffing and debuffing) and has an similarly strong effect (100% reduction in attacks for the hut, only one save allowed, but single target).

A best-case scenario for Slow would be something more like "you get ambushed at close range by six Star Spawn Manglers".

[Waterdeep Merch]

Haste's strongest when thrown onto someone with GWM or Sharpshooter, not a sword-and-board'r or dual wielder. It's especially nice on barbarians or rangers with the respective feat. It's also excellent on paladins that have the intention of going nova with smites. It also has the benefit of being excellent from round one of an extended fight against something with legendary resistance, whereas slow is only maybe a loss of one use of it.

That's not to say it's better than slow, it just accomplishes something very different. If you need your murderous optimized DPR to go full ham, haste is the extra juice that can put them over the top. If you need to turn a room of dangerous combatants into an old folk's home, slow is how you do it.

Against high level legendary resistance nightmares, I think having both is optimal. Haste first (preferably before combat if you can manage it!) unless you have a better concentration spell in mind, then whittle away their legendary resistances with higher level spells they won't want to get hit by before surprising them with the humble slow, which can ruin them better than most people realize.

[NaughtyTiger]

As opposed to the singular extra what, 9 damage Haste would've done per round? For how many rounds? 3?

So 2 enemy attacks VS an extra potential 27 damage across a battle?

Yes, Slow is a bit of a gamble because the enemy gets a save at the end of their turn but its ceiling of reward is also much, much higher than Haste.

Haste:
-27 damage TO the fighter cuz free disengage, +2AC
-24 damage TO the fighter cuz advantage on Dex rolls vs fire breath

Slow
+5 damage FROM the cleric who hit due to -2AC
-18 damage TO team from negating 2 multiattacks
-9 damage TO fighter for free disengage

your baba yaga had a +7 wisdom save vs a DC 14. she needed a 6 to fail. your story demo's good rolls.
my dracotaurs had a +2 wisdom save vs a DC 14. they needed a 12 to fail. my story demo's bad rolls.

Yes, Slow is a gamble because the enemy gets a save at the spell casting AND at the end of their turn, but the ceiling of reward is much, much higher than Haste IF the enemy is a caster.

[MaxWilson]

your baba yaga had a +7 wisdom save vs a DC 14. she needed a 6 to fail. your story demo's good rolls.

Good rolls and good luck in other ways too. Baba Yaga rolled 6 or under twice (30% * 30%), and the hut (+0 wisdom save) rolled 13 or under twice (65% * 65%). There's a 3.8% of that happening, and even then the party was lucky she picked a bad spell (Lightning Bolt) instead of Power Word Stun or Dispel Magic and then goofed on her spellcasting roll and then the DM picked ANOTHER bad spell (Misty Escape) and then the DM goofed on Slow (shouldn't affect Misty Escape but did) and then also rolled poorly so Misty Escape was cancelled. And Baba Lysaga isn't even a well-constructed spellcaster anyway: no Counterspell, no Shield, not even Hold Person, bunch of crummy spells to do minor damage like Blight, although she also has some good ones like Dispel Magic and Evard's Black Tentacles and Polymorph and the Mirage Arcane + True Seeing combo (which the DM probably didn't notice).

This is a pretty good scenario for Slow (hut is immune to Hypnotic Pattern/Fear) but even in this scenario Slow just isn't a good choice. Would have been smarter to Polymorph the hut into a field mouse (with the intention of drowning it later on, or having a familiar drop it from a great height after everyone readies attacks for after it hits the round) while Counterspelling Baba Lysaga. The PCs got very, very lucky.


Yes, Slow is a gamble because the enemy gets a save at the spell casting AND at the end of their turn, but the ceiling of reward is much, much higher than Haste IF the enemy is a caster.

Haste is a gamble too though, of course. Lost concentration = can't move or take actions until end of next turn, which can be lethal.

Against spellcasters, Silence or Counterspell dominates Slow.

[NaughtyTiger]

Haste is a gamble too though, of course. Lost concentration = can't move or take actions until end of next turn, which can be lethal.

Totally agree; losing Haste is scary as heck.

My whole point was to provide a counter point to: Slow is superior because it worked so well this one instance.

[Sindal]

I'd say that the spell that ends up superior depends on a case by case basis. There's never gonna be a right answer based on different peoples tables.

Both are strong, for sure. Both can work. People just like the fact that haste, in most cases, won't screw you over.
The fact that slow's worse case scenario is that 'nothing happens' is not attractive. Especially if you have to use a third level spell slot for it.
It's best case scenario could save the day or make a possibly difficult encounter trivial.
'Possibly'

Though I think it's safe to say both spells can be pretty epic =p
I'd prefer to have both at my disposal and choose on an encounter basis. Sadly, this is not always an option

[MrStabby]

Both are good, but I favour slow.

Haste... kind of sucks to lose concentration on. Worst case slow does nothing. Worst case for haste is it destroys someone else's turn.

Slow helps you keep the caster out of reach and preserve concentration, haste doesn't keep enemies out of reach so well.

The thing is, you use a spell when it is your best option. You need to compare slow when it is good to haste when it is good. If you have reason to believe you are facing low wisdom save enemies you can whip out slow over fireball or whatever other saves might be on offer. The relevant question is not the average value of each spell but the marginal value of adding that spell to your portfolio. If you have spells like hypnotic pattern then I would say a second mass incapacitation spell that targets wisdom is redundant, but if not then slow is great.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I feel Slow and Haste are actually equal in power. Its just that the two spells are built for two different groups:

Haste is what I'd call a "Player" spell. PCs are going to get far more out of Haste then the DM's NPCs. It basically buffs everything a PC needs to have and gives them an extra action that they can use to retreat, reposition, hide, use a potion, or make one more attack. And while making one extra attack per round isn't much for a Fighter, its great for any class that only makes two attacks or less in a round. Monks, Rogues, and Paladins especially benefit from Haste, since they can add extra damage or status effects when their attacks connect with a target.


On the flip side, its not great on NPCs. Sure, you give them the +2 to AC and an extra attack, but they don't really benefit from those buffs as much as a PC would. In my experience, NPC combatants don't really move around the battlefield as much as PCs do, so the double speed is really used. Same with the extra action. Few NPCs use items in the middle of battle, and fewer need to do things like hide or retreat. The few that do tend to have an ability in their stat block that lets them do those things anyway for free, as a bonus action, or as a Legendary Action. And while making one extra attack is nice, they kind of fall into the same issue as the Fighter. Monsters tend to make a ton of attacks per round already, and unless they have some sort of special rider that happens when they hit, there's not much point in giving them another attack.

----

Meanwhile Slow is kind of the opposite. It's a "DM spell, in that it sucks in the hands of PCs but is a game changer in the hands of a DM. And please note I'm not saying that Slow is a bad spell, I just mean Slow is far more effective when a DM uses it against players then it is when players use it against NPCs. Take a look at what it does. It cuts speed in half, lowers AC by 2, makes it so you can only take an action or bonus action, you can't take a Reaction, you can only make one attack per round, and you essentially have a 50% chance of being unable to cast a spell until one round later. Its literally an All-in-One debuff that hampers everything the PC's can do while still giving them a chance to end the effect on a successful save. To top it off Player Saving Throws tend not change very much outside of what they're proficient in, which practically guarantees you'll be able to catch someone with Slow and they won't be able to easily shrug it off.


When the PC uses it, it still hampers the enemy, but I feel like there are better options. If you compare Slow to Fear and Hypnotic Pattern, you quickly realize that Slow is the lesser debuff. Fear forces the targets to use their action to Dash from you, giving you attacks of opportunity and denying them their action. They're also frightened, giving them disadvantage to attack rolls and some other things. To top it off, they can't make another save against the spell until they no longer have line of sight to you. At the same time, Hypnotic Pattern sets a target's speed to 0 and they are incapacitated with no additional saves until someone attacks them, they are shaken awake by someone, or the caster drops Concentration.

Meanwhile Slow cuts movement speed in half, which might not matter if the NPC doesn't need to move, makes them only be able to use an action or bonus action, which again may not matter since most NPCs don't really use many Bonus Actions, can't use Reactions, which is the same issue as the Action/Bonus Action, and can only make 1 attack per round. And they get a Wisdom save at the end of every round, which means this spell's effectiveness can vary wildly.

[Samayu]

I had a sorcerer with Slow. I saw it prevent half of a swarm of giants getting to the party on the first turn. It's great when monsters are multi-attacking. But there were many times where slow wasn't worthwhile to cast.

But then that party also had a barbarian who hit hard. And for him, the extra attack increased his odds of getting a crit or kill, gaining him the bonus attack from GWM. So Haste was pretty reliable in that game.

But I still lean towards Slow, for disrupting the opponent's game.

[Theaitetos]

Isn't it possible to cast Haste on a charmed enemy (through deception), and then dropping concentration at the beginning of that enemy's turn? That would knock him out for two rounds, without any saving throws (except for the original charm spell). It would also prevent bonus actions (like aforementioned Misty Step). This wouldn't even break the charm spell since Haste is not a harmful spell (Deception: "Sorry they broke my concentration!"), and you could try again with another Haste.

[MaxWilson]

Isn't it possible to cast Haste on a charmed enemy (through deception), and then dropping concentration at the beginning of that enemy's turn? That would knock him out for two rounds, without any saving throws (except for the original charm spell). It would also prevent bonus actions (like aforementioned Misty Step). This wouldn't even break the charm spell since Haste is not a harmful spell (Deception: "Sorry they broke my concentration!"), and you could try again with another Haste.

In principal that sounds possible, but is it really worth it? If they are willing to let you cast spells on them they already believe you're on their side--do you even need to prevent them from acting at that point? Sounds restricted to niches where you're willing to split the party, e.g. one PC infiltrates the bad guys' side as a mole and then secretly undermines them while other PCs work overly against them. Fun, but niche.

[Theaitetos]

In principal that sounds possible, but is it really worth it? If they are willing to let you cast spells on them they already believe you're on their side--do you even need to prevent them from acting at that point? Sounds restricted to niches where you're willing to split the party, e.g. one PC infiltrates the bad guys' side as a mole and then secretly undermines them while other PCs work overly against them. Fun, but niche.

A charmed creature only regards you as a friendly acquaintance, but not your party members and would therefore still attack them, even if it spares you. And once you or your allies do anything harmful to it, the charm spell breaks, which makes charm a very weak combat spell. But its long duration (1h) without concentration allows you to prepare for the fight (if it's not an unexpected encounter) and then haste the creature right before the battle begins. Your party can even ignore the charmed enemy and pick off the other enemies first, so the charm spell won't break.

The good thing about it is that once the initial Wisdom saving throw for the charm spell is failed, there are no other saving throws (not even legendary saves). The DM might call for Deception vs Insight ability checks when you cast Haste, but these checks are much easier to win than saving throws. The Haste downtime will render the enemy completely stun-locked for 2 turns without any escape. And Charm Person (if it's a humanoid) is a level 1 spell, which hurts much less to lose when the enemy makes its saving throw.

[MaxWilson]

A charmed creature only regards you as a friendly acquaintance, but not your party members and would therefore still attack them, even if it spares you.

Wait, when you said "charmed (through deception)" did you mean Charm Monster? I thought you meant actual deception or something, since obviously you didn't mean the charmed condition which basically does nothing.


And once you or your allies do anything harmful to it, the charm spell breaks, which makes charm a very weak combat spell. But its long duration (1h) without concentration allows you to prepare for the fight (if it's not an unexpected encounter) and then haste the creature right before the battle begins. Your party can even ignore the charmed enemy and pick off the other enemies first, so the charm spell won't break.

Yes, you almost have to prepare in advance, because if you wait until you're already in combat, enemies will save against Charm Monster with advantage. But again, if you're talking to the monster because you're got it Charmed in advance, and you're good enough to fool the monster into things like letting you cast spells on it... I still question whether the Haste combo is even necessary. Instead of fooling the monster into letting you Haste it, wouldn't you be fooling it into thinking that e.g. the other PCs and you are all here to help the monster gain something it greatly desires, like leadership of its tribe or a great treasure from deeper within the dungeon? Or I could tell the monster I was going to Polymorph it into a T-Rex so it could fight the PCs, but really I would Polymorph it into a dung beetle.

Again, I'm not saying the Haste combo wouldn't work here. I think it would. I just don't see myself ever actually using it.


The good thing about it is that once the initial Wisdom saving throw for the charm spell is failed, there are no other saving throws (not even legendary saves). The DM might call for Deception vs Insight ability checks when you cast Haste, but these checks are much easier to win than saving throws. The Haste downtime will render the enemy completely stun-locked for 2 turns without any escape. And Charm Person (if it's a humanoid) is a level 1 spell, which hurts much less to lose when the enemy makes its saving throw.

Acknowledged.

[Theaitetos]

Wait, when you said "charmed (through deception)" did you mean Charm Monster? I thought you meant actual deception or something, since obviously you didn't mean the charmed condition which basically does nothing.

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant: Charm Person or Charm Monster. The Deception part was about making the already charmed creature agree to being buffed with Haste by you (since it can only target willing creatures).


Instead of fooling the monster into letting you Haste it, wouldn't you be fooling it into thinking that e.g. the other PCs and you are all here to help the monster gain something it greatly desires, like leadership of its tribe or a great treasure from deeper within the dungeon? Or I could tell the monster I was going to Polymorph it into a T-Rex so it could fight the PCs, but really I would Polymorph it into a dung beetle.

Usually monsters aren't alone, and e.g. the other Orcs are unlikely to allow you to tell tall tales of betrayal to their strongest fighter. Yet a short "Hey, let me Haste you real quick!" is part of the free actions during combat. Besides, Deception isn't all powerful, and small lies¹ should be easier to pass as truth than a big lie: "Your Majesty, you are suffering from Infernal Cooties and the only way to cure you is by transferring all your titles and belongings to this humble beggar friend of mine!" (DC 50?)

¹: One could even argue that "Hey, let me Haste you real quick!" isn't even a real lie, since you actually do cast Haste on the creature.

[Chronos]

Slow shouldn't be compared to Haste, because they're completely different spells, for completely different purposes. Or at least, they should only be compared in situations where you're also comparing Fireball, Major Image, and Dispel Magic. You might well compare both Haste and Slow, or prepare neither, depending on the situation.

What Slow should be compared to is spells that would be used in similar situations to produce similar effects. It's a 3rd-level Wis-negates area-effect spell to shut down enemies, so it should be compared to Hypnotic Pattern or Fear, both of which also meet that description. You probably won't prepare more than one out of those three spells, because you'd probably be better off preparing something else that works in a different sort of situation.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages. Slow's advantages are the selective targeting (no accidentally hitting allies), and that almost nothing is immune to it. Its disadvantages are that the enemies aren't completely shut down and can still act at partial effectiveness, and they get to repeat the save every round to end it.

Fear's advantage is that it causes enemies to not only lose actions, but to misuse them, possibly causing attacks of opportunity, and even if it ends, they'll have to spend more time getting back to the battle. Fear's disadvantages are that some things are immune to fear, and it can end early if the enemies can't see you.

Hypnotic Pattern's advantage is that enemies can never save again against it, it can be used in silence, and it leaves them Charmed, which opens up the possibility of social uses. Its disadvantages are that it breaks on damage, enemies can rouse each other, and some things are immune to Charm.

Let's look at the same situation for all three (a situation which is, in fact, relatively favorable to Slow). The party is facing six enemies, each of which ordinarily attacks twice per round, and focused fire from the party can kill one per round. The enemies have poor Wis saves (otherwise, the wizard would have chosen some other sort of spell), so they have about a 2/3 chance of failing.

With Slow, the wizard casts, and you get four affected, two unaffected.
Round 1: The four affected get in four attacks, and the two unaffected get in another four. Meanwhile, the party kills one of the unaffected ones.
Round 2: One of the four has made its repeated save, so there are now three affected, two not. They get in a total of 7 more attacks, and the party kills another unaffected one.
Round 3: One of the three makes its save, so there are now two affected, two not. Six more attacks from the monsters, and the party kills another.
Round 4: Two are left affected, and let's say neither saves, so we have two affected, one not, for four more attacks. The party kills the affected one.
Round 5: Of the two remaining, one saves this time. Three monster attacks this round, and again the party kills the unaffected one.
Round 6: One remaining, and it doesn't save. It gets in one last attack, and then the party kills it.
Total monster attacks over all six rounds: 29

With Hypnotic Pattern, again you get four affected, two unaffected.
Round 1: The four affected get zero attacks, and the two unaffected get in four. The party kills one unaffected one.
Round 2: The four affected get zero attacks, and the unaffected one gets in two. The party kills it.
Rounds 3,4,5,6: Affected ones get zero attacks, the one the party attacks breaks free and gets two attacks.
Total monster attacks over all six rounds: 14

Now Hypnotic Pattern again, but assume more intelligent enemies, who try to shake their friends out of it:
Round 1: The four affected do nothing, and the two unaffected rouse two of the affected ones. The party kills one.
Round 2: Two of the three unaffected ones rouse the remainder, and the third gets in two attacks. The party kills another unaffected ones.
Round 3: Four unaffected, for eight attacks.
Round 4: Three unaffected, six attacks.
Round 5: Two unaffected, four attacks.
Round 6: One unaffected, two attacks.
Total monster attacks over all six rounds: 22

Now Fear, and we'll assume that they can get out of line of sight in a single round:
Round 1: The four affected flee to a location one round away, and the two unaffected make four attacks. The party kills one unaffected.
Round 2: One of the four who fled makes its save and spends its round returning, and the other three flee to two rounds away. The one remaining who was unaffected to begin with makes two attacks, and then gets killed by the party.
Round 3: One of the three fleeing ones makes its save, and spends its turn returning to one round away. The other two are now three rounds away. The party kills the one who returned last round.
Round 4: The two fleeing ones both fail their saves, and are now four rounds away. The one who recovered dashes back to the battle, but can't attack yet.
Round 5: One fleeing one makes its save and is now three rounds away, the other is five. The one who returned makes two attacks, then is killed.
Eventually: The ones who fled each gets back and makes two attacks before dying.

Total monster attacks: 12

For comparison, with no hindering spell, the enemies would get in 42 attacks. So all three spells are doing something. But Slow is doing the least.

[JackPhoenix]

A charmed creature only regards you as a friendly acquaintance, but not your party members and would therefore still attack them, even if it spares you. And once you or your allies do anything harmful to it, the charm spell breaks, which makes charm a very weak combat spell. But its long duration (1h) without concentration allows you to prepare for the fight (if it's not an unexpected encounter) and then haste the creature right before the battle begins. Your party can even ignore the charmed enemy and pick off the other enemies first, so the charm spell won't break.

The good thing about it is that once the initial Wisdom saving throw for the charm spell is failed, there are no other saving throws (not even legendary saves). The DM might call for Deception vs Insight ability checks when you cast Haste, but these checks are much easier to win than saving throws. The Haste downtime will render the enemy completely stun-locked for 2 turns without any escape. And Charm Person (if it's a humanoid) is a level 1 spell, which hurts much less to lose when the enemy makes its saving throw.

At that point, you may as well skip the middleman and just use Hold Person or better yet, Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead. Same saving throw requirement, only single action and level 1 spell slot needed, being incapacitated breaks enemy concentration, it doesn't care if you're in the middle of the fight with target, and while there are further saving throws, the enemy will always skip at least one turn as long as the initial save is failed. Also drops the enemy prone, so rest of your group will get advantage as long as the enemy is ROFL.

Much better deal overall.

[Theaitetos]

At that point, you may as well skip the middleman and just use Hold Person or better yet, Tasha's Hideous Laughter instead. Same saving throw requirement, only single action and level 1 spell slot needed, being incapacitated breaks enemy concentration, it doesn't care if you're in the middle of the fight with target, and while there are further saving throws, the enemy will always skip at least one turn as long as the initial save is failed. Also drops the enemy prone, so rest of your group will get advantage as long as the enemy is ROFL.

Much better deal overall.

These options have significant drawbacks. For instance, both spells can be broken by losing concentration yourself.

Tasha can be broken by other enemies, as the other Orcs can simply "pinch" (low damage attack) the spell victim a few times, since any time it takes damage it gets to make a saving throw (with advantage!). And every attack your party lands against the victim is likely to break the spell too. The spell victim might not even lose a single round if the spell is broken before it starts its turn.

Hold Person allows for saving throws at the end of the victim's turn and it can be dispelled. It only works on humanoids; the non-humanoid Hold Monster requires a 5th-level spell slot and doesn't work on undead (but admittedly, Charm Monster is a 4th-level slot too).

The Haste debuff takes 2 turns away if properly timed (at least 1 even if concentration breaks right after casting it), works on any creature, is a 3rd-level spell, and it cannot be dispelled (technically it could, but it would trigger the debuff). It can also come in handy when fighting enemies with legendary saves features, as they might not use these abilities when failing their WIS saving throw against a low-level charm spell.

In certain cases the initial "charm" might even be the Friends cantrip (if the creature isn't hostile from the get-go), saving you the Charm Person/Monster spell. Or it can be omitted completely, if the deception works through other means: it's only important to make the target allow itself to be hasted after all.


Anyway, this is just to show that Haste has an additional debuff use beyond its buff use. This makes it more versatile than Slow imo and if you're low on known/prepared spells, this is relevant.

[Frozenstep]

For comparison, with no hindering spell, the enemies would get in 42 attacks. So all three spells are doing something. But Slow is doing the least.

I think your comparison is really basic and thus ignores important things like fear not completely shutting down attacks if the enemies have a ranged option, or hypnotic pattern possibly dropping due to an enemy deciding to AoE their allies to wake them up (admittedly, a corner case). But it was a basic comparison so I can forgive that.

But even a basic comparison shouldn't ignore the attacks the party doesn't take by slow preventing opportunity attacks and having halved speed. Hit enemy, walk away 30 feet, if they're a basic melee dude with a 30 foot move speed, well now they can't catch up unless they dash. 0 attacks. Yeah, your party might have some melee units that need to be close, but better to just back off and let the unaffected ones catch up and take care of them, or just get a javelin out and attack without the enemy being able to react.

[EdenIndustries]

I think your comparison is really basic and thus ignores important things like fear not completely shutting down attacks if the enemies have a ranged option

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, a ranged option wouldn't help since the Fear spell forces the enemies to take the dash action and run away.

[Frozenstep]

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, a ranged option wouldn't help since the Fear spell forces the enemies to take the dash action and run away.

You are correct, I overlooked that. I blame monsters with bonus action spells.

[JackPhoenix]

Tasha can be broken by other enemies, as the other Orcs can simply "pinch" (low damage attack) the spell victim a few times, since any time it takes damage it gets to make a saving throw (with advantage!). And every attack your party lands against the victim is likely to break the spell too. The spell victim might not even lose a single round if the spell is broken before it starts its turn.

Even then, you at least give your party advantage on those attacks. And if you can avoid attacking the charmed creature to not break the charm, you can also avoid the laughing creature.... more easily, even, because unlike the charmed creature, it doesn't do anything to threaten people other than the caster. And I don't know about you, but my orcs don't metagame, so they are unlikely to know counter for the spell, not to mention that orcish "pinch" (unarmed attack) is still 4 damage, over 25% of orc's HP, and not guaranteed to break the effect.


The Haste debuff takes 2 turns away if properly timed (at least 1 even if concentration breaks right after casting it), works on any creature, is a 3rd-level spell, and it cannot be dispelled (technically it could, but it would trigger the debuff). It can also come in handy when fighting enemies with legendary saves features, as they might not use these abilities when failing their WIS saving throw against a low-level charm spell.

It also takes one extra action away from the caster compared to THL, one extra spell slot, it doesn't actually work on any creature due to limitations of the initial charm spell spell, and requires the target not to be immune or resistant to charm, which is much more common than


In certain cases the initial "charm" might even be the Friends cantrip (if the creature isn't hostile from the get-go), saving you the Charm Person/Monster spell. Or it can be omitted completely, if the deception works through other means: it's only important to make the target allow itself to be hasted after all.

The former requires you to use even more precious cantrip slot on otherwise pretty useless spell. The later allows for options other than Haste, as the target doesn't know what spell you're actually casting anyway. Which is also a problem for other charm spells: Friends don't make the victim regard you any more friendly, and just because someone's your "friendly aquintance" doesn't mean you would allow them to cast unknown spells at you.


Anyway, this is just to show that Haste has an additional debuff use beyond its buff use. This makes it more versatile than Slow imo and if you're low on known/prepared spells, this is relevant.

If you're low on known/prepared spells, it's more efficient to use something that doesn't need another spell to go off in the first place.

[Chronos]

In the Fear case, if enemies have ranged attacks, that might save them some time in getting back to the battlefield... but I was assuming the terrain was such that they break line of sight after a single turn fleeing, so probably not. If the terrain is more open, to allow ranged attacks, then they probably won't even get an opportunity to break the spell.

And speaking of opportunity attacks, I also didn't include the extra opportunity attacks the party would make in the Fear case, mostly because it's hard to incorporate into the simplistic model I was using. And kiting enemies effectively, even with a 2:1 speed advantage, is difficult to sustain in a lot of terrain.

[Theaitetos]

Even then, you at least give your party advantage on those attacks.

Which is pretty worthless, because
1) any attack triggers another saving throw ending the spell immediately and
2) the aim of the entire setup is to debuff the enemy party to avoid taking strong hits while attacking the undebuffed enemies, which your proposal doesn't do at all: To take this advantage you have to focus on the debuffed creature while taking full hits from the enemy party.


And if you can avoid attacking the charmed creature to not break the charm, you can also avoid the laughing creature....

Charm is not a prerequisite for Haste, its only use is to ease the deception. Not breaking the charm is purely icing on the cake – as the actual debuff is the Haste effect – since it allows you to repeat the Haste debuff two rounds later. The charm effect itself is pretty worthless, so breaking it is not a loss. However breaking Tasha is a huge loss.



The more easily, even, because unlike the charmed creature, it doesn't do anything to threaten people other than the caster.

The charm is merely to ease the Haste debuff, not the primary goal. And no, it's easier to avoid the Haste debuffed creature, because it's been taken out for 2 whole rounds.


And I don't know about you, but my orcs don't metagame, so they are unlikely to know counter for the spell, not to mention that orcish "pinch" (unarmed attack) is still 4 damage, over 25% of orc's HP, and not guaranteed to break the effect.

And you realize that the Orcs were just an example for an enemy. It could also be a group of enemy wizards, rogues, clerics, fiends, or dragons? And you also realize that even Orcs can use a "kick in the groin" attack instead of punching their friends with full force?


It also takes one extra action away from the caster compared to THL,

Not if you prepared the charm spell before combat. Charm Person has a 1 hour duration without concentration.


one extra spell slot

Friends is a cantrip. Charm Person a 1st-level spell. That's pretty cheap. I'd rather lose a 1st-level spell to a saving throw than a 2nd-level spell. And maybe the initial charm isn't even needed.


it doesn't actually work on any creature due to limitations of the initial charm spell spell, and requires the target not to be immune or resistant to charm, which is much more common than

Fortunately the charm spell isn't a necessity, just a setup to make the deception easier. And Friends works on any creature.


The former requires you to use even more precious cantrip slot on otherwise pretty useless spell.

If Friends is useless to you, then you might be using it wrong.


The later allows for options other than Haste, as the target doesn't know what spell you're actually casting anyway. Which is also a problem for other charm spells: Friends don't make the victim regard you any more friendly, and just because someone's your "friendly aquintance" doesn't mean you would allow them to cast unknown spells at you.

That's why you are casting Haste on them: You do exactly as you said. The victim just needs to be deceived beforehand, which is a Charisma ability check made easier by Friends. And just because someone is willing to be hasted, doesn't mean they're willing to be polymorphed.


If you're low on known/prepared spells, it's more efficient to use something that doesn't need another spell to go off in the first place.

The question of this thread is: Slow or Haste? I've shown that Haste offers more versatility than Slow, as you can use it as buff on party members or unbreakable debuff on enemies. And supporting/controlling spellcasters with proficiency in the Deception skill are likely to know charm spells too.

[JackPhoenix]

Which is pretty worthless, because
1) any attack triggers another saving throw ending the spell immediately and
2) the aim of the entire setup is to debuff the enemy party to avoid taking strong hits while attacking the undebuffed enemies, which your proposal doesn't do at all: To take this advantage you have to focus on the debuffed creature while taking full hits from the enemy party.

If you attack the laughing target, you'll get the advantage until its turn, even if the spell is broken by damage. If you're not attacking it, you aren't risking breaking the spell through damage and can deal with anyone else, though the target still gets saves. Still, just failing the initial effect achieves at least some effect: it breaks the target's concentration, drops it prone, and, depending on what initiative each combatant has, make them lose at least one turn. That's much more than dropping concentration on Haste does.


Charm is not a prerequisite for Haste, its only use is to ease the deception. Not breaking the charm is purely icing on the cake – as the actual debuff is the Haste effect – since it allows you to repeat the Haste debuff two rounds later. The charm effect itself is pretty worthless, so breaking it is not a loss. However breaking Tasha is a huge loss.
The charm is merely to ease the Haste debuff, not the primary goal. And no, it's easier to avoid the Haste debuffed creature, because it's been taken out for 2 whole rounds.

If the enemy isn't charmed, it has no reason to accept you casting unknown spells at them. It simply does not work in combat without charm, and it's unlikely to work even with the charm, for the reasons I've mentioned in previous post.


And you realize that the Orcs were just an example for an enemy. It could also be a group of enemy wizards, rogues, clerics, fiends, or dragons? And you also realize that even Orcs can use a "kick in the groin" attack instead of punching their friends with full force?

You mean unarmed attack that does... for a standard orc.... 4 damage? Yes. That's exactly what I've said.


Not if you prepared the charm spell before combat. Charm Person has a 1 hour duration without concentration.

At this point, I don't know why you bother with some elaborate setup. If you have the target available to cast CP before the actual combat, you can just as well skip the wait and kill it right there, while it is alone.


Friends is a cantrip.

Exactly. That's why it uses more valuable resource than prepared spells. You can't switch it out later, and you only have limited number of cantrips available.


Charm Person a 1st-level spell.

So is THL.


And Friends works on any creature.

It doesn't work on anything hostile towards you. It doesn't work on anything you can't communicate with, like animals and other low- (and even not-so-low-) Int creatures, as you wouldn't be making Cha checks against such target.


If Friends is useless to you, then you might be using it wrong.

Considering how easy it is to gain advantage on Cha checks without using valuable resources and without turning the target hostile afterwards, it is useless. It doesn't even stop the target from attacking you. There's a combination with disguise to target the hostility at someone else, but it's GM-dependant if that work.


That's why you are casting Haste on them: You do exactly as you said. The victim just needs to be deceived beforehand, which is a Charisma ability check made easier by Friends. And just because someone is willing to be hasted, doesn't mean they're willing to be polymorphed.

Again, if you have enough time to prepare some deception before you start a combat with the target, there are less convulted things you can do that don't require the target to cooperate with his own murder attempt. And as the target doesn't know what spell are you casting, you may as well say you're casting Haste and cast Polymorph instead. Or Levitate to remove them from melee and/or drop them from height afterwards. There's no "I'm willing to accept Haste, but not Polymorph from this guy". There's "I'm willing to have a spell cast on me, and I hope the spell does what the spellcaster said". Of course, asking the target if he's willing first will propably raise some suspicion...

The question of this thread is: Slow or Haste? I've shown that Haste offers more versatility than Slow, as you can use it as buff on party members or unbreakable debuff on enemies. And supporting/controlling spellcasters with proficiency in the Deception skill are likely to know charm spells too.

And the answer is: While Haste can be used offensively, it requires extremely convulted circumstances and 3rd level spell slot (at the minimum) to skip a save on a lesser version of 1st level spell's effect. That's hardly a point in Haste's favor.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I don't fully see how or why you'd bother charming a creature you plan to fight/kill in the first place. I have yet to be in a party or DM for a party that goes through an elaborate deception on a target. I find parties also rarely have a chance to prepare for combat ahead of time. So all that Charming stuff ends up pointless anyway.

As for the Friend cantrip...it again has little use. It gives you advantage on a charisma check. You get the same thing by having an ally use the Help action for you.

[Theaitetos]

Still, just failing the initial effect achieves at least some effect: it breaks the target's concentration, drops it prone, and, depending on what initiative each combatant has, make them lose at least one turn. That's much more than dropping concentration on Haste does.

That's less than Haste. Besides, it won't lose any turn if others help the victim. Can't help a Haste-debuffed party member though.


If the enemy isn't charmed, it has no reason to accept you casting unknown spells at them.

If you play your combat without abilities like Deception, that might be.


You mean unarmed attack that does... for a standard orc.... 4 damage? Yes. That's exactly what I've said.

I hope your party never has to slap an unconscious NPC awake. You'd just kill them.


At this point, I don't know why you bother with some elaborate setup. If you have the target available to cast CP before the actual combat, you can just as well skip the wait and kill it right there, while it is alone.

The enemy was never alone. I'm pretty sure I mentioned "enemy party", "other", and the stuff several times…


Friends doesn't work on anything you can't communicate with, like animals and other low- (and even not-so-low-) Int creatures, as you wouldn't be making Cha checks against such target.

Neither does Tasha.


Considering how easy it is to gain advantage on Cha checks without using valuable resources and without turning the target hostile afterwards, it is useless.

Great! You just made my point that charm spells aren't even necessary!


There's no "I'm willing to accept Haste, but not Polymorph from this guy".

There's no "I'm willing to accept kissing, but not sex with this guy." [said the rapist to the judge].

Let's just say we disagree here, because not everyone plays with your universal & unlimited spell consent rule.


a 3rd level spell slot (at the minimum) to skip a save on a lesser version of 1st level spell's effect. That's hardly a point in Haste's favor.

If Haste's drawback is so petty, why are so many players afraid of it? However they aren't shivering in fear over Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

p.s.: Prone is a beneficial condition, if your enemies aren't nearby and you cast spells like buffs or debuffs.

[MaxWilson]

And the answer is: While Haste can be used offensively, it requires extremely convulted circumstances and 3rd level spell slot (at the minimum) to skip a save on a lesser version of 1st level spell's effect. That's hardly a point in Haste's favor.

One thing that did come out of this discussion: if the party casts Haste, and there are monsters who can target the Haste caster, it would be really smart for them to ready their attacks/spells until the start of the Hasted character's turn, instead of using them immediately. That way a success will disable the Hasted PC for two rounds instead of one.

[JackPhoenix]

That's less than Haste.

So, the same effect as Haste with additional effects is less than what Haste does? What?


Besides, it won't lose any turn if others help the victim.

Thing is, even if someone else acts between the caster's and the target's turn, they STILL have to use their action to *attempt* (because the success is not guaranteed) to help the target, so you'd be denying the helper's action. And they would be causing damage in the process.


Can't help a Haste-debuffed party member though.

Which doesn't matter, because the help is a trap option anyway. Targetting the caster to break their concentration is a better choice, but geeking the mage first is good idea in general, though it may not be possible.


If you play your combat without abilities like Deception, that might be.

You don't have enough time to set up some elaborate deception in the middle of combat, and simple tricks you can do in 6 seconds you have per turn won't really work, so.... yes, when I use deception in combat, I use it in different ways than attempting to do something inefficient just so I can claim a spell is more versatile than it is.


I hope your party never has to slap an unconscious NPC awake. You'd just kill them.

Indeed. Hitting unconscious creature (at 0 hp) is good way to kill them, as they fail 2 death saves and are dying. Other ways to awake unconscious creatures may not require damage, though, depending on the source of unconsciousness: sleeping creatures can be shaken awake with an action without any damage involved. THL, however, doesn't grant save on being poked.... that'll just make the creature laugh even more.... but on being DAMAGED. No damage, no save.


The enemy was never alone. I'm pretty sure I mentioned "enemy party", "other", and the stuff several times…

So, how did you get them charmed and/or decieved in the first place? If the enemy was never alone, you never had an opportunity to cast the charm without anyone noticing.


Neither does Tasha.

It does, to an extent. THL doesn't work on creatures with Int <5, but does not require the target to understand you. Giant apes have Int 7, but they don't understand any languages, so advantage on Cha checks against them won't help you, as you won't be able to communicate with them. Skeletons are near mindless (besides problem solving ability), so you won't convince them of anything, even though they understands languages, but it's got Int 6. Both are vulnerable to THL.


There's no "I'm willing to accept kissing, but not sex with this guy." [said the rapist to the judge].

Let's just say we disagree here, because not everyone plays with your universal & unlimited spell consent rule.

It's not universal, you can choose to be unwilling target for a spell on individual basis, problem is that you don't automatically know what spell is being cast. You can use your reaction to get an Arcana check to identify the spell, and can resist based on that, but there's opportunity cost and it's not guaranteed to succeed. If you decide to trust the caster and ignore that reaction, you have only yourself to blame if the caster uses a different spell than they've said.

If Haste's drawback is so petty, why are so many players afraid of it? However they aren't shivering in fear over Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

Perception problem. Haste should be a buff, cast on you by your allies, and you don't want something that should make you stronger disadvantage you somehow. THL is a debuff used by your enemies. If the enemy is casting a debuff on you, you know it's going to suck when you fail a save. It's worse to be affected by THL, but at least it feels fair. And hey, it could've been Hold Person instead, and you could've eaten a bunch of critical hits in addition to being incapacitated.


p.s.: Prone is a beneficial condition, if your enemies aren't nearby and you cast spells like buffs or debuffs.

Yet you generally won't see characters dropping prone in combat unless they are extremely sure they are safely outside enemy movement range. THL has a range of 30', so anyone affected should be easily reached.

[Theaitetos]

Why wouldn't you want to fall prone? I know that I like to fall prone with my Divine Soul Sorcerer… like all the time! Sometimes there's cover available, but usually you can't choose the battlefield yourself, so you have to make due with what you have. Being prone gives enemies disadvantage on their attacks (weapons & spells), which is an AC bonus equivalent to a permanent Shield spell while also protecting against critical hits, sneak attacks, and other forms of advantage (True Strike, Foresight). Prone doesn't affect my ability to cast buffs/debuffs or my damage cantrips: Sacred Flame (DEX save), Frostbite (CON save), Toll the Dead (WIS save) have 60ft range each. And being prone doesn't stop movement (with or without getting up) either. Sorcerers have to be creative with so few spells known, and although many recommend Shield it just doesn't feel worth it since you can't cast it on others.

But it seems you play the game completely different, without any abilities that aren't primarily combat-related. That's OK with me, but don't assume it's the same for everyone. Playing tricks on the enemy during combat through Deception might not be something you do, but I've also read from others that they do that: There's a warlock who permanently uses Disguise Self to make himself appear 1ft smaller, so he can still look over obstacles but the enemy doesn't see him (total cover). Another sorcerer used his action to deceive the enemy wizard into thinking he was casting Fireball so the wizard would waste his Counterspell, after which the sorcerer promptly cast a quickened Fireball for real…

And now thinking about it, a GOO warlock with the Actor feat should be able to use his action to telepathically make the enemy Grax believe he is hearing the voice of his friend Grix saying: "That enemy over there is secretly our ally Grux and will cast Haste on you any moment. Accept it." Hah, wish I had dipped in GOO warlock now. :smallcool:


One thing that did come out of this discussion: if the party casts Haste, and there are monsters who can target the Haste caster, it would be really smart for them to ready their attacks/spells until the start of the Hasted character's turn, instead of using them immediately. That way a success will disable the Hasted PC for two rounds instead of one.

At least one person got it. :smallbiggrin:

[FabulousFizban]

it's just you. slow allows a save