Sorcerers Being Mechanically Better Than Wizards: True to what degree?

[Endarire]

Pathfinder only! 3.5 is very different!

Greetings, all!

I've heard from numerous sources that in PF, Sorcerers are often considered better mechanically than Wizards. Sometimes, they're more convenient, yes, but Wizards also cast most spell levels 1 class level sooner. Assuming access to all first party PF material with the newest errata, what say you?

(Around the release of the Advanced Player's Guide's release, I heard Sor and Wiz were about equally powerful due to the human favored class bonus spell.)

[Alexvrahr]

PF1, right?

Assuming that I don't think that's changed. The sorcerer now gets bloodline mutations (https://aonprd.com/BloodlineMutations.aspx) and magic items (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Robe%20of%20Ar cane%20Heritage) for their class (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Mnemonic%20Ves tment), OTOH there are fancy spellbooks (https://aonprd.com/Spellbooks.aspx) and an amazing variety of spells which take a wizard to catch them all. Both have absurdly good archetypes for the munchkins among us.

At levels 3 & 5 the wizards spell level advantage matters a lot, later on it matters less. The supposed advantage of the sorcerer to cast more spells isn't really true due to that spell level advantage though, even if your wizard doesn't take the Thassilonian specialist archetype. The sorcerer is better at specialising in some field - blasting or stacking up debuffs or mind-affecting spells or something - than a wizard is. There are a couple ways for a wizard to prepare spells in empty slots faster if they want to emphasise their advantage in flexibility.

Also note the existence of the arcanist class for those who just can't decide between the two classes.

[exelsisxax]

Those sources are wrong. Prepared casters are still simply better than spontaneous casters - the ability to cast any spells far outweighs any perceived benefit of spontaneous casting. Sorcs are better than 3.5 sorcs, but certainly not better than wizards for anything except lower-level blasting, where extra spell slots and bloodline arcana do take the cake.

[grarrrg]

I've heard from numerous sources that in PF, Sorcerers are often considered better mechanically than Wizards.
...
(Around the release of the Advanced Player's Guide's release, I heard Sor and Wiz were about equally powerful due to the human favored class bonus spell.)

(The following may or may not be -currently- true, but it demonstrates the thought process well enough)
The main thing is there being fewer "must have" spells in Pathfinder compared to 3.5 (fewer spells total, some of the old "must haves" got nerfed, etc...).
It's much more feasible for a Sorcerer to know (almost?) all 'relevant' spells. So once both classes know all relevant spells, it comes down to Sorc-casting the spell they need -right now- being better than the Wizard maybe not having it prepared.

There was also that brief window where a Sorcerer could (Quicken a) Paragon Surge and get -any- spell they needed -right now-.
Having ready access to every spell ever all the time was a little broken, so it got nerfed.
You can still use it to get any spell you want, but you're stuck with that same spell for the rest of the day.

[Gnaeus]

I think it’s pretty close to a wash. At least for sorcerers with favored class options for extra spells. 7 spells per level (and almost all the bloodlines have at least some decent spells you can work around with planning) is enough.

Wizard is better on odd levels and if you are in environments where you want specific uncommon spells. Like if you know you will be fighting undead and you can pick specific anti type spells, or picking fire spells for the Ice caves. If you have time/ability to fully scry dungeons before entering. In my experience that’s less common than forum suggests but it can happen.

Sorcerers are easier in play and you have the option of casting exclusively the spell that’s best for that day. Also, you can blow spell slots for long term or utility stuff like shrink item, animate dead, planar binding or extended hour/level buffs before sleep if you didn’t use them. Some sorcerers can even burn slots for cures, taking pressure off the divine caster. (Specifically, summon good monster is very strong for sorcs with a lot of angel casting options.).

[Calthropstu]

Sorcerer options tend to be better than wizard options out the gate in my opinion. The capstones for wizards are generally far less imressive for the most part (except conjurer. Permanent free infinite healing? Yes please!)

Mechanically, sorcerers are much better for game flow. I only need to remember a few spells per level rather than the hundred or so scrolls we picked up and I added to my spellbook. I have seen wizards bog down the game for an hour trying to pick a spell.

[Gnaeus]

Sorcerer options tend to be better than wizard options out the gate in my opinion. The capstones for wizards are generally far less imressive for the most part (except conjurer. Permanent free infinite healing? Yes please!)

Mechanically, sorcerers are much better for game flow. I only need to remember a few spells per level rather than the hundred or so scrolls we picked up and I added to my spellbook. I have seen wizards bog down the game for an hour trying to pick a spell.

I’ve seen (been? Cough) sorcerers spend the same time trying to figure out the best summons to use. Neither is simple.

[Calthropstu]

I’ve seen (been? Cough) sorcerers spend the same time trying to figure out the best summons to use. Neither is simple.

I'm the only sorcerer who uses summons that I have met and I have the art of summoning down pretty hard. My turns are often faster than the melee characters so eh?

[Gnaeus]

I'm the only sorcerer who uses summons that I have met and I have the art of summoning down pretty hard. My turns are often faster than the melee characters so eh?

I think it’s pretty clearly one of the strongest options, since even the base lists give a ton of flexibility in terms of utility, control or damage and very easy to expand. I don’t think every sorcerer should be summons focused but I think every sorcerer should learn the summons at most or all levels.

Yes, player mastery will speed your turns. Bet if you played all wizards your turn wouldn’t take an hour either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I played a Human Sorcerer with the False Priest (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest) archetype and a bunch of high CL wands of divine spells with only one charge remaining. It came pretty close to a 3.5 Sorcerer with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (if you don't carry a constant consecrate/hallow with you).

[Eldonauran]

When it comes down to it, I'd generally always prefer to pick a sorcerer over a wizard when I play an arcane caster (Arcanist has more appeal to me than a Wizard, but that is because I like spontaneous casting). It is not so much who is mechanically better and I don't allow statistical probability of having the right spell prepared for the right moment to sway my opinion on the matter much (though it does a little).

Overall, I would call it a wash between the two, as far as the spellcasting goes. There are some high points for each class at different levels that may shown them to have a bit of an advantage, but in the end, it just feels like splitting a single hair about a dozen times. You are playing in a group. Focus on optimizing that aspect of your character.

[andreas002]

In PF1, the Sorcerer is still very much Tier 2.
The notable exception being the False Priest archetype after level 9, as pointed out above. Those can spontaneously cast all Divine spells in addition to their Arcane spells known.

Meanwhile, the Arcanist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist) is basically just a better Sorcerer, able to swap out their spells known each day. And their Exploits are generally better than a Sorcerer's Bloodline abilities.
It competes with Wizards for strongest arcane class, swapping back and forth every level after 2nd. Of course, Wizards are cheating bastards and proud of it, so they stole the Exploits for themselves. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/exploiter-wizard) And Arcanists, being part Wizard, took the Wizards' Schools in turn (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo---arcanist-archetypes/school-savant).

Really though, all three are highly powerful. Play whichever has the casting style that suits you best.

[Psyren]

In practical play, T1 and T2 are not that far apart anyways. In a lot of cases, T2 actually performs better because that's just how human nature works; when people don't have to worry about casting the one Fly spell they prepared now out of fear they might need it later, or worry about preparing Fly twice when they only need it once, they end up in many cases making more optimal decisions. And you can argue that "oh, they can use divinations to know the right amount to prepare" - but the practical usefulness of divinations in circumstances that granular tend to vary by GM, and even by the player's own skill at asking questions. And as mentioned, the gap is even narrower in Pathfinder where Sorcerers have a bit more ability to pull out a niche spell in an emergency or solve a situation with their bloodline powers instead of spells.

TL;DR - there's a lot of factors besides tier for determining whether a sorcerer will outperform a wizard or vice-versa, especially in Pathfinder.