The Death Curse, the Rite of Stolen Life, and temp HP

[Segev]

Let's say you're a PC in a Tomb of Annihilation game, and you or a friend are suffering from the Death Curse, or were... (pause here for spoilers)

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...brought back to (un)life by the Rite of Stolen Life as performed by a particular gifted medicine woman in a city ruined by terror folk.

You are nearing that dread point where the reduced hp maximum will put you at 0 maximum hp. Can you use false life or other sources of temp hp to keep yourself above 0 hp for however long the hp last? We know that no spell can reverse or delay the reduction of the hp maximum, so heroes' feast won't help, but what about temporary hp? Can you desperately cling to life on their basis?

If so, what would be the best mechanisms for this, as well as the lowest-level? False life is a second level spell, and even a hypothetical wand of it would have a maximum of 7 charges; you'd need 4 of them to last 24 hours, and an average of 6 charges per wand post-daily-recharge to keep it up. Are there better, longer-lasting sources of temp hp?

[Chugger]

Doubt that would help - false life or other temp hp. Maybe AID would, lvl 2 spell.

I think best option is to just let the char die and bring in a new char, try to level it up quickly - this can often be done with higher level chars. Or bring in a surrogate as per ToA rules. If you do this.... Finish the thing and...

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...and see if your patron, the lady who starts you on this adventure, will restore you. I think she can cast a Wish to restore you if the thing eats your soul. If not maybe you'd want to keep the surrogate char. This is such a weird mechanic, the whole surrogate thing.

[NNescio]

Let's say you're a PC in a Tomb of Annihilation game, and you or a friend are suffering from the Death Curse, or were... (pause here for spoilers)

...

...

...

...

...brought back to (un)life by the Rite of Stolen Life as performed by a particular gifted medicine woman in a city ruined by terror folk.

You are nearing that dread point where the reduced hp maximum will put you at 0 maximum hp. Can you use false life or other sources of temp hp to keep yourself above 0 hp for however long the hp last? We know that no spell can reverse or delay the reduction of the hp maximum, so heroes' feast won't help, but what about temporary hp? Can you desperately cling to life on their basis?

If so, what would be the best mechanisms for this, as well as the lowest-level? False life is a second level spell, and even a hypothetical wand of it would have a maximum of 7 charges; you'd need 4 of them to last 24 hours, and an average of 6 charges per wand post-daily-recharge to keep it up. Are there better, longer-lasting sources of temp hp?

If you have a max HP of 0 then you will always be considered dying (assuming you aren't dead yet) because your current HP will always be 0. Having temp HP is irrelevant.


A creature's current hit points (usually just called hit points) can be any number from the creature's hit point maximum down to 0. This number changes frequently as a creature takes damage or receives healing.


Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw...

So you make DSTs in perpetuity until you die. Oddly, you can still act, assuming you weren't knocked down to 0 HP by damage earlier. (Since it's damage specifically that triggers unconsciousness.)

But Aid will work since it actually raises (even if temporarily) Max HP instead of giving you Temp HP.

Admittedly, there might be specific rules under Death Curse and/or Rite of Stolen Life that overrules the above. I'm not particularly familiar with the module.

Edit: Wait, does the Death Curse say "you can't benefit from maximum HP increases, ever" or something to that effect?

[Segev]

The Death Curse forbids anything from recovering from a reduction to hp maximum. I'm paraphrasing, but the end result is that the only way to increase hp max is to gain levels.

Having reread the Rite of Stolen Life, when their hp max is 0, they die again, no matter their current hp. That said, for academic purposes, temp hp do let you go over your normal max, or they'd be totally worthless for the primary use as a buff spell. They're not weak healing; they actually give you a buffer.

But for the Rite of Stolen Life, they won't help because max hp 0 still triggers the shattering of your gem and your body collapsing lifelessly.

But leveling up might prolong it for a little while... harder to justify on an NPC, but still maybe.

(I have introduced an NPC red wizard's apprentice who was fleeing from cannibals after Eku's attack on Nanny Pu'pu right after his master paid her to use the Rite of Stolen Life so he could see it in action led to his master fleeing by magic while he fled and got lost in the jungle. Long story short, the party rescued him and know he's a weird undead. He doesn't know what happened. He had 8 max hp when they met him; as of the next morning, when the session ended, he has 6 max hp. He loses 1d4 per day, per the Rite of Stolen Life's rules. In theory, if he gains 300 XP, he might hit second level and get another HD, though...but other than that, I don't think anything's prolonging him beyond a day or few more.

He's going to be positively terrified.)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The Death Curse forbids anything from recovering from a reduction to hp maximum. I'm paraphrasing, but the end result is that the only way to increase hp max is to gain levels.

Having reread the Rite of Stolen Life, when their hp max is 0, they die again, no matter their current hp. That said, for academic purposes, temp hp do let you go over your normal max, or they'd be totally worthless for the primary use as a buff spell. They're not weak healing; they actually give you a buffer.

But for the Rite of Stolen Life, they won't help because max hp 0 still triggers the shattering of your gem and your body collapsing lifelessly.

But leveling up might prolong it for a little while... harder to justify on an NPC, but still maybe.

(I have introduced an NPC red wizard's apprentice who was fleeing from cannibals after Eku's attack on Nanny Pu'pu right after his master paid her to use the Rite of Stolen Life so he could see it in action led to his master fleeing by magic while he fled and got lost in the jungle. Long story short, the party rescued him and know he's a weird undead. He doesn't know what happened. He had 8 max hp when they met him; as of the next morning, when the session ended, he has 6 max hp. He loses 1d4 per day, per the Rite of Stolen Life's rules. In theory, if he gains 300 XP, he might hit second level and get another HD, though...but other than that, I don't think anything's prolonging him beyond a day or few more.

He's going to be positively terrified.)

But aid don't recover your max HP, it just rais it temporarily.

Unless there is something that act against Aid in there.

[Potato_Priest]

I'm away from my book, but I'm pretty sure that if you have 0hp, you're unconscious/dead regardless of your temp hp. From what I recall, if you have 0hp and are unconscious but have temp hp, all they do is act as a buffer against further damage provoking failed death saves.

Thus, I'd extrapolate that you can't save yourself from getting to 0 max hp with temp hp.

[Segev]

I'm away from my book, but I'm pretty sure that if you have 0hp, you're unconscious/dead regardless of your temp hp. From what I recall, if you have 0hp and are unconscious but have temp hp, all they do is act as a buffer against further damage provoking failed death saves.

Thus, I'd extrapolate that you can't save yourself from getting to 0 max hp with temp hp.

I'm not sure where that comes from. Temp hp only behave differently from normal hp in terms of healing and exceeding hp cap, to my knowledge. Well, and duration, sometimes.

[Potato_Priest]

It looks like I got it almost exactly right, except for a small but extremely significant error. The basic rules (and I assume the phb) say:

“If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn’t restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you’re in that state, but only true healing can save you.”

However, they don’t address a situation where you are reduced to 0 hp but already have temporary hit points, presumably because that’s normally impossible as temp hp are depleted first.

Thus, I’d say you’re firmly in “ask your dm” territory, though the above passage would be a good source for your dm to cite if they do not want you to survive via this method.

[Segev]

Thus, I’d say you’re firmly in “ask your dm” territory, though the above passage would be a good source to cite if your dm does not want you to survive via this method.

Seems so.

In this case, I am the DM, and I'm working with an NPC. It's not one I am going to try to save in the long term, but I am making sure I delve into the various desperate efforts he can go to to cling to the last few hours of (un)life he has before his resources run out.

On the day he is to be down to 0 hp, I probably won't have it happen in the morning. I'll put him at 1 hp, and then have him falling apart for at least a portion of the day...until his gem breaks while he's desperately scared. }: )

[NNescio]

The Death Curse forbids anything from recovering from a reduction to hp maximum. I'm paraphrasing, but the end result is that the only way to increase hp max is to gain levels.

Doesn't sound like it would block temporary Max HP increases then. You aren't 'repairing' (recovering) from the Max HP decrease, but providing an alternate and temporary means of boosting it instead. Like how a Wraith's Life Drain doesn't prevent people from benefiting from Aid or Heroes' Feast. Same goes for the Shadow's Strength Drain, which doesn't prevent STR boosts from items.


It looks like I got it almost exactly right, except for a small but extremely significant error. The basic rules (and I assume the phb) say:

“If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn’t restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you’re in that state, but only true healing can save you.”

However, they don’t address a situation where you are reduced to 0 hp but already have temporary hit points, presumably because that’s normally impossible as temp hp are depleted first.

Thus, I’d say you’re firmly in “ask your dm” territory, though the above passage would be a good source for your dm to cite if they do not want you to survive via this method.

The established rule is already that your current HP can't exceed your max HP, and that if your current HP is zero, you need to make death saving throws every turn until you die or recover. But you can't recover since your max HP is 0, so you are stuck making DSTs until you die.

I already quoted the relevant rules earlier.

Temp HP does not provide an exemption.


Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points...

It's not actual HP. You're still at 0 HP.


I'm away from my book, but I'm pretty sure that if you have 0hp, you're unconscious/dead regardless of your temp hp. From what I recall, if you have 0hp and are unconscious but have temp hp, all they do is act as a buffer against further damage provoking failed death saves.

It wouldn't even help then. You still take damage, and hence you still trigger DSTs, as is the case with concentration saves. It's also why you get to apply resistances (and vulverabilities), unlike with Arcane Ward (which explicitly "takes the damage instead"). I mean, sure, you can choose to interpret "buffer against" and "injury" liberally, which admittedly does make a certain amount of sense from a "common sense English" perspective, but this is clearly not the intent as established in the SAC.

(Same goes with other game terms, like the ubiquitous "attack".)

[returnToThePast]

Unfortunately, I don't think temp HP would help as the rules for falling unconscious are based on current and maximum HP, though it would help mitigate the risk of being knocked out before the max fell to 0. From what I've managed to gather regarding the curse rules, it does explicitly ban increases to maximum HP such as the effects of the Aid spell.

If the curse effect states that you die when maximum HP reaches 0 (couldn't find exact text), then it's game over for the affected character. Otherwise, the character would make death saves until they either stabilized or died. If stable, they would be stuck in a comatose state because they couldn't regain 1 HP after 1d4 hours as normal to recover from unconsciousness, though they might eventually be freed if the curse is broken. NPC's don't necessarily have to follow the same rules as player characters, so do whatever works best for the narrative with them, whether that be instant death, coma, or something else.

[NNescio]

Otherwise, the character would make death saves until they either stabilized or died. If stable, they would be stuck in a comatose state because they couldn't regain 1 HP after 1d4 hours as normal to recover from unconsciousness, though they might eventually be freed if the curse is broken.

Oh right, forgot about that part. It does make a lot of narrative sense too, being stuck in a coma if one gets reduced to Max Hp 0 but somehow manages to survive the process.

(It does run into funny interactions with Unconsciousness though. Not sure how to interpret "remains unconscious" if the creature was never rendered unconscious in the first place.)