(3.PF1) How Many Ways Are There To Clone Items?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, I don't mean the clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) spell.

Although, if the item is intelligent, I suppose it could work, sort of. You could also use clone if the item is being possessed somehow, such as via a fiend of possession. So I guess I found a third way to go about it, now that I considered it. Huh.

Anyway, I was looking at using mirrors of opposition to make copies of items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse), and I got to wondering if there are any other ways of doing so.

Astral projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) makes copies of anything you're holding, which gives you good value for money, since you can then use up or destroy an astral item, but the item would still be on your person and intact when you go back to your corporeal body.

Anyone else have any other ideas for how to do this? A spell or item effect or a combination thereof that allows you to make numerous copies of, say, that super-special-awesome meal you paid a world-class chef to prepare for you, or that incredibly expensive item you raided the dragon's hoard for? Or maybe your phylactery that contains part of your life force that would be really terrible to lose?

[AvatarVecna]

No, I don't mean the clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) spell.

Although, if the item is intelligent, I suppose it could work, sort of. You could also use clone if the item is being possessed somehow, such as via a fiend of possession. So I guess I found a third way to go about it, now that I considered it. Huh.

Anyway, I was looking at using mirrors of opposition to make copies of items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse), and I got to wondering if there are any other ways of doing so.

Astral projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) makes copies of anything you're holding, which gives you good value for money, since you can then use up or destroy an astral item, but the item would still be on your person and intact when you go back to your corporeal body.

Anyone else have any other ideas for how to do this? A spell or item effect or a combination thereof that allows you to make numerous copies of, say, that super-special-awesome meal you paid a world-class chef to prepare for you, or that incredibly expensive item you raided the dragon's hoard for? Or maybe your phylactery that contains part of your life force that would be really terrible to lose?

It depends on interpretation, but...


Split (Ex)
Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

There's a few other oozes that have this ability too. It's also worth noting that they're pretty explicitly identical to the parent ooze in all ways except for "current hit points" (which are split between the two child oozes). HD, max HP, size, mass...none of that changes. It is, functionally, less "splitting the existing ooze in two" and more "cloning, but worse because they're injured", and it can be done as an attack action by somebody adjacent anybody within range with the right damage type. Now, whether you're willing to stretch this into "duplicates items" depends on whether you count items they're benefiting from (or even just "items they have on their person") as part of their statblock.

If you interpret this that way, there's...I guess three things you can take advantage of: first, if you can make the ooze intelligent somehow, you could then use Diplomacy to get it to let you help it procreate. However, if any child ooze has less than 10 HP, they can't make any more child oozes...but that's only current HP, so if you can set up some method of healing them (ideally something automatic like a healing trap, or maybe an item granting fast healing/regeneration?), then you can split them much more frequently. And as far as frequency goes, this is at the very least something that can be done to generate an extra ooze per attack action. Alternatively, some kind of AoE dealing slashing/piercing would work...or...


Slashing and piercing weapons and electricity attacks deal no damage to an ochre jelly. Instead the creature splits into two identical jellies, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A jelly with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 it points.

...you could use an ochre jelly instead; not only is it overall weaker than the black pudding (so easier to start this process earlier), but it also splits as a result of electricity damage - and AoEs dealing electricity are a lot easier to get than AoEs dealing slashing/piercing.

EDIT: If you could get a super-strong Ochre Jelly that had enough hit points/fast healing/regen, you could probably use the leadership feat and have like a bunch of lvl 1 followers firing arrows at it. It's basically impossible to miss even if you're not proficient and level 1, and any amount of damage will cause a split. So as long as it has enough HP that a single round of super-splitting won't take any children below 10 HP, and enough self-healing that each clone can get back up to full in short order, you can get quite a bit of splitting out of it.

[unseenmage]

Mirror Plane duplicates come fully equipped IIRC. And a new mirror plane can be generated for each new mirror.
Magic resetting trap of True Creation, mirror and another of Mirror Travel could work.

Simulacrum of Intelligent Magic Items is the most cheesey that I know of.
Well, aside from Shapechanged Zodar wishes.

I've been trying for years to get Summon Monster duration up high enough to get summons with spellcasting to make items using Wondrous Architecture/Lair Wards containing crafting feats via the Feats in Magic Items sidebar in AaEG.

Hivemind composed of Int Magic Item Figurine Of Wondrous Power could theoretically replicate themselves.
Items that turn into animals as spellcasting nanobot swarms ftw.

[Zombulian]

There’s always the old trick of shooting Raptor Arrows from a bow with the Splitting enhancement.

[NNescio]

It depends on interpretation, but...


Split (Ex)
Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

There's a few other oozes that have this ability too. It's also worth noting that they're pretty explicitly identical to the parent ooze in all ways except for "current hit points" (which are split between the two child oozes). HD, max HP, size, mass...none of that changes. It is, functionally, less "splitting the existing ooze in two" and more "cloning, but worse because they're injured", and it can be done as an attack action by somebody adjacent anybody within range with the right damage type. Now, whether you're willing to stretch this into "duplicates items" depends on whether you count items they're benefiting from (or even just "items they have on their person") as part of their statblock.

If you interpret this that way, there's...I guess three things you can take advantage of: first, if you can make the ooze intelligent somehow, you could then use Diplomacy to get it to let you help it procreate. However, if any child ooze has less than 10 HP, they can't make any more child oozes...but that's only current HP, so if you can set up some method of healing them (ideally something automatic like a healing trap, or maybe an item granting fast healing/regeneration?), then you can split them much more frequently. And as far as frequency goes, this is at the very least something that can be done to generate an extra ooze per attack action. Alternatively, some kind of AoE dealing slashing/piercing would work...or...


Slashing and piercing weapons and electricity attacks deal no damage to an ochre jelly. Instead the creature splits into two identical jellies, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A jelly with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 it points.

...you could use an ochre jelly instead; not only is it overall weaker than the black pudding (so easier to start this process earlier), but it also splits as a result of electricity damage - and AoEs dealing electricity are a lot easier to get than AoEs dealing slashing/piercing.

EDIT: If you could get a super-strong Ochre Jelly that had enough hit points/fast healing/regen, you could probably use the leadership feat and have like a bunch of lvl 1 followers firing arrows at it. It's basically impossible to miss even if you're not proficient and level 1, and any amount of damage will cause a split. So as long as it has enough HP that a single round of super-splitting won't take any children below 10 HP, and enough self-healing that each clone can get back up to full in short order, you can get quite a bit of splitting out of it.

So basically, we are backimporting pudding farming from Nethack.

...I'm impressed.

[Jack_Simth]

To the OP: Assuming 3.5 as a base:
Get a minion that deals Slashing damage.
Get the item you wish to duplicate.
Cast Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).
Turn into something with Split (a Black Pudding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm), say), keyed to slashing damage.
Have minion hit you.
Heal yourself and your clone up (possibly just by changing shape a bunch of times)
Return to your normal forms.

Items you were carrying were absorbed into your form when you changed form via Shapechange. The attack produced "two identical puddings" from you, when the item was absorbed, as an Ex ability.

Downside: There's now two of you, both of whom want two of the item in question.... maybe you're OK with having two XP bomb familiars? Could get a similar effect by casting Shapechange on your familiar, and having it do most the above.


I've been trying for years to get Summon Monster duration up high enough to get summons with spellcasting to make items using Wondrous Architecture/Lair Wards containing crafting feats via the Feats in Magic Items sidebar in AaEG.
Pathfinder has the option.

Heighten Mount (or Communal Mount), and use Alter Summoned Monster on it. Lasts 2 hours/CL by default, and you can get a Greater Rod of Extend Spell to make that 4 hours/CL. At 20th, that's 80 hours, or just over 3 days. Add a few ways to boost your CL (Bead of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Death Knell, et cetera) and you can push it up to 4 or 5 days.

Alternately: Create a Demiplane, permanency it, and use Create Greater Demiplane to add the Timeless trait with respect to magic (the Timeless trait is explicitly allowed). Then Summon Monster IX doesn't run out, and you can have it do whatever.

[AvatarVecna]

So basically, we are backimporting pudding farming from Nethack.

...I'm impressed.

Well, if you act under the assumption that Split duplicates items possessed by the parent ooze. I feel like this isn't explicit enough for it be a definite yes, and thus it's gonna come down to how your group rules things. But it's at least a potentially-viable duplication method, and seems like exactly the kind of way an epic wizard might provide arms and armor for an army of followers. Set it up like one of those dunking booths or something, "shoot the ooze and win all the prizes it contains".

[NNescio]

Well, if you act under the assumption that Split duplicates items possessed by the parent ooze. I feel like this isn't explicit enough for it be a definite yes, and thus it's gonna come down to how your group rules things. But it's at least a potentially-viable duplication method, and seems like exactly the kind of way an epic wizard might provide arms and armor for an army of followers. Set it up like one of those dunking booths or something, "shoot the ooze and win all the prizes it contains".

As DM, I'd say it wouldn't work because most effects that duplicate a creature will have additional language specifying equipment if it also, well, duplicates equipment. It's also definitely against RAI.

Buuuut there's enough RAW ambiguity to argue it your way, so I'm impressed regardless. And the mental image it conjures is funny.

[unseenmage]

...

Pathfinder has the option.

Heighten Mount (or Communal Mount), and use Alter Summoned Monster on it. Lasts 2 hours/CL by default, and you can get a Greater Rod of Extend Spell to make that 4 hours/CL. At 20th, that's 80 hours, or just over 3 days. Add a few ways to boost your CL (Bead of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Death Knell, et cetera) and you can push it up to 4 or 5 days.

Alternately: Create a Demiplane, permanency it, and use Create Greater Demiplane to add the Timeless trait with respect to magic (the Timeless trait is explicitly allowed). Then Summon Monster IX doesn't run out, and you can have it do whatever.

Added to my notes, thanks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've been trying for years to get Summon Monster duration up high enough to get summons with spellcasting to make items using Wondrous Architecture/Lair Wards containing crafting feats via the Feats in Magic Items sidebar in AaEG.As with so many other things, this can be accomplished via the acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) spell. Plant an oak tree (a feather token for a quick one, perhaps?) on a plane that is timeless with regards to magic, toss a magically-imbued acorn from it to your summoned minion, and watch your spell never expire. At least, not until the minion dies or is killed by other means.

[unseenmage]

As with so many other things, this can be accomplished via the acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) spell. Plant an oak tree (a feather token for a quick one, perhaps?) on a plane that is timeless with regards to magic, toss a magically-imbued acorn from it to your summoned minion, and watch your spell never expire. At least, not until the minion dies or is killed by other means.

Awesome. Also added to my notes.

Ultimately the idea is to have this be the output for a Rube Goldberg machine comprised entirely of spells and spell effects

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Awesome. Also added to my notes. Note that the above acorn will never expire (see the aforementioned demiplane), and if you carry it on yourself, none of your buffs will expire, either. It's a super-cheap alternative to the standard Persist-o-Matic Cleric setup (Persist-o-Priest?), and it works for more than just clerics.

Now just imagine what you could do with other planar traits, like subjective directional gravity, and Ysgard's daily resurrection...

[Jack_Simth]

Note that the above acorn will never expire (see the aforementioned demiplane), and if you carry it on yourself, none of your buffs will expire, either. It's a super-cheap alternative to the standard Persist-o-Matic Cleric setup (Persist-o-Priest?), and it works for more than just clerics.

Now just imagine what you could do with other planar traits, like subjective directional gravity, and Ysgard's daily resurrection...
Ysgard's Daily Resurrection also prevents XP gain, doesn't it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ysgard's Daily Resurrection also prevents XP gain, doesn't it?Nope! According to the Manual of the Planes:


Minor Positive-Dominant: Ysgard possesses a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. All individuals on a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 and may even regrow lost limbs in time. Additionally, those slain in the never-ending conflicts on Ysgard’s fields of battle rise each morning as if true resurrection were cast on them, fully healed and ready to fight anew. Even petitioners, who as outsiders cannot be raised, awaken fully healed. Only those who suffer mortal wounds on Ysgard’s battlefields get the true resurrection effect; dead characters brought to Ysgard don’t spontaneously revive.

XP loss (if any) is a separate trait, and so long as the demiplane isn't actually Ysgard, it wouldn't apply. Though I didn't see anything about stunted XP loss in the minute or so I was looking around.

[unseenmage]

Can True Creation create a bonsai oak tree complete with acorns due to plants counting as objects for spell purposes?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can True Creation create a bonsai oak tree complete with acorns due to plants counting as objects for spell purposes?That is also a no, since the effect line is:


Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level

[Telonius]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but a Ghost's "Ghostly Equipment" contains copies of the magic items it had when it was alive.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but a Ghost's "Ghostly Equipment" contains copies of the magic items it had when it was alive.Well, it's a thing, I guess.

Is there a way to, say, alter self or polymorph into a ghost or similar remnant with that ability?

Also, if one were to use my aforementioned idea of an acorn of far travel spell used on a tree on a timeless-with-regards-to-magic demiplane, would all of your non-Instantaneous spells be Permanent, or just your buffs? After all, you count as being on a timeless-with-regards-to-magic demiplane, so your spells were, essentially, cast on such a plane, even though they exist on the regular Material plane.

Also, you may want to make it an enhanced magic plane, with tons of metamagic feats you'd want to apply whenever possible, such as Maximize, Empower, Enlarge, Widen, Chain, Extend, and Persist, and anything else you might want.

[Endarire]

Wish or similar and an agreeable GM.

[AvatarVecna]

I've been trying for years to get Summon Monster duration up high enough to get summons with spellcasting to make items using Wondrous Architecture/Lair Wards containing crafting feats via the Feats in Magic Items sidebar in AaEG.

In case you wanted something less sketchy than the acorn trick, Pathfinder's Arcanist (specifically, the Occultist) gets an ability letting them summon for minutes/lvl by default via spending arcane reservoir points - not super-impressive on its own, even if you could boost it with metamagic (which...you probably can't?), but once they reach lvl 20, the duration changes to "until dismissed", and can be scaled all the way up to Summon Monster IX with enough points. Granted, this is very much end-game/early-epic, but it's explicitly infinite duration, which is nice.

[unseenmage]

In case you wanted something less sketchy than the acorn trick, Pathfinder's Arcanist (specifically, the Occultist) gets an ability letting them summon for minutes/lvl by default via spending arcane reservoir points - not super-impressive on its own, even if you could boost it with metamagic (which...you probably can't?), but once they reach lvl 20, the duration changes to "until dismissed", and can be scaled all the way up to Summon Monster IX with enough points. Granted, this is very much end-game/early-epic, but it's explicitly infinite duration, which is nice.

Also added to the notes.
These are going to be a blast to apply later.
Thanks.