The dumb, ugly, reckless cleric

[Trandir]

The dumb, ugly, reckless cleric

Well it's always a good idea to have a few backup characters in case my current PC meets his demise.

This time the idea is simple: a cleric that has terrible magical cababilities but great physical ones.

Abilities with point buy before racial modifiers: 15 15 15 8 8 8

Some limitations to keep if possible:
Any race that doesn't provide a +2 to either intelligence, charisma and wisdom is fine;
After ASI and half feats the mental abilities modifiers should remain negative;
No multiclassing.

I'd go with a gish goliath forge cleric.
Anyone has better ideas?

[Anymage]

Why? I could see the idea working as exploring a concept, but in real gameplay you're bending over backwards to make your character ineffective and expecting your party members to pick up the slack.

At low levels you could count on your physical stats to make you an acceptable melee combatant while still throwing around the occasional buff/heal. At higher levels, again, you're asking for a build where your allies have to carry you.

[Trandir]

Why? I could see the idea working as exploring a concept, but in real gameplay you're bending over backwards to make your character ineffective and expecting your party members to pick up the slack.

At low levels you could count on your physical stats to make you an acceptable melee combatant while still throwing around the occasional buff/heal. At higher levels, again, you're asking for a build where your allies have to carry you.

To answer the question: because I can.
I am aware that if one dump the spellcasting ability of a full caster you end up with garbage DPR compared to other "normal" or optimized build soon or later. This one in particular could work for lv 1-4 without much trouble and from 5-10 behind and after that you are just dead weight on the party shoulders. Still not every concept/build is for every campaign.

[Dork_Forge]

To answer the question: because I can.
I am aware that if one dump the spellcasting ability of a full caster you end up with garbage DPR compared to other "normal" or optimized build soon or later. This one in particular could work for lv 1-4 without much trouble and from 5-10 behind and after that you are just dead weight on the party shoulders. Still not every concept/build is for every campaign.

Because I can might be fun in certain games to maximise enjoyment over optimisation, but you are intentionally building a sub par character here and deliberately avoiding the main point and feature of your chosen class.

You'll end up a martial with no actual martial abilities and a d8 hit die, can you still be productive in tier 1 play? Sure, but you should certainly discuss a character like this with the party, your character choices can affect more than just your personal enjoyment.

[Neoh]

Well it's always a good idea to have a few backup characters in case my current PC meets his demise.

This time the idea is easy: a cleric (domain still to decide) that should have nothing to do with magic at all.

Abilities with point buy before racial modifiers: 15 15 15 8 8 8

Some limitations to keep if possible:
Any race that doesn't provide a +2 to either intelligence, charisma and wisdom is fine;
After ASI and half feats the mental abilities modifiers should remain negative;
No multiclassing.

I'd go with a melee forge cleric. What can the playground think of?

So you want to play a Fighter that's bad and boring, is that right?

[Trandir]

So you want to play a Fighter that's bad and boring, is that right?

Fighter is a bit generic. This would be closet to an eldrich knight that has no blast power and can just buff and has a single attack instead of many.



And ok I get it a cleric with dump Wis apparently can't do anything so let's just change things a bit

[Dork_Forge]

Fighter is a bit generic. This would be closet to an eldrich knight that has no blast power and can just buff and has a single attack instead of many.



And ok I get it a cleric with dump Wis apparently can't do anything so let's just change things a bit

You didn't just describe a negative Wis (which isn't just your spellcasting mod, your Perception and other skills are going to suffer too), you said nothing to do with magic at all.

If you'd actually be using your casting then it's a bit different and the character is more viable. Bless, Shield of Faith and Aid are all great spells that don't require Wis and you can still heal, just poorly.

[Brookshw]

Cool thread, I love to hear people screaming badwrongfun.

[Trandir]

You didn't just describe a negative Wis (which isn't just your spellcasting mod, your Perception and other skills are going to suffer too), you said nothing to do with magic at all.

If you'd actually be using your casting then it's a bit different and the character is more viable. Bless, Shield of Faith and Aid are all great spells that don't require Wis and you can still heal, just poorly.

I never sayed that the original cleris wasn't allowed to use spells. I just sayed that he "should have nothing to do with magic at all", a fact that is true since he needs 5 more ability points in any given ability to qualify for a multiclass. That kind of PC should have nothing to do with anything magical but he doesn't know it and still cast spells.

If it was a light cleric he could still cast a fireball with DC 7+proficiency mod, highly ineffective and probably shouldn't have done that but it wans't part of the limitations, and if he was that forge cleric I mentioned at the beginning he would use searing smite, elemental weapon and other similar buffs to try to keep up with the others.


Cool thread, I love to hear people screaming badwrongfun.

Me too, smells like burning garbage in the morning

[Neoh]

Fighter is a bit generic. This would be closet to an eldrich knight that has no blast power and can just buff and has a single attack instead of many.



And ok I get it a cleric with dump Wis apparently can't do anything so let's just change things a bit

Well, you asked for "no magic at all" so yeah, that was basically a Fighter with a single attack and nothing to add to your attacks like a Battlemaster Maneuveurs.

Assuming Mace and Shield melee you'd end up like this :
1d6 + 5 = 6-11 (8.5)
1d6 + 5 + 1d8 = 7-19 (13) Lvl 8
1d6 + 5 + 2d8 = 8-27 (17.5) Lvl 14

If you want to play something, do it, by all means, I'm all for people going for a concept. But do know that without damage or utility in and out of combat and having low skill scores, you risk crippling your team heavily.

Now if you just want a Cleric that can fight in melee properly, you could look at the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade Cantrips.
Ways to get them :
Arcana Cleric.
High Elf Cantrip.
Half-Elf variant High Elf Cantrip.
Magic Initiate Feat.

As for races, anything can work, obviously Variant Human is an obvious choice for any build, Half-Elf to get the cantrip, Dwarf is very solid and gets you some proficiencies, Half-Orc is cool.
A Warforged gets you many good things and the Envoy one gives you Expertise with a tool (Forge Cleric).

Chose your domain after you chose your race, if you took a Dwark with weapon proficiency, you could settle for a Domain that only has heavy armour. But don't be afraid to stack them either if you like a concept.
Also remember that martial weapons aren't that important, the difference between a 1d6 Mace and a 1d8 Warhammer is just an average of 1 damage, which is even less important with a single attack

[Neoh]

I never sayed that the original cleris wasn't allowed to use spells. I just sayed that he "should have nothing to do with magic at all", a fact that is true since he needs 5 more ability points in any given ability to qualify for a multiclass. That kind of PC should have nothing to do with anything magical but he doesn't know it and still cast spells.

Spells are magic. Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma are not.
Having 8 in every casting stats doesn't mean you can't use magic, it only means that you're stupid and ugly and most of your spells will suck.
The other way works too, a Battlemaster with 16 Intelligence doesn't know any spell and magic, he's just a smart guy.

I think you're confused with the game's stats somehow.

[Trandir]

This time the idea is easy: a cleric that should have nothing to do with magic at all.


That sentence is just a reference of the fact that this PC has a negative modifier on all 3 spellcaster abilities. Why everyone assumed that it was a limitation even if there was nothing in the limitation list refering spells?



Well, you asked for "no magic at all" so yeah, that was basically a Fighter with a single attack and nothing to add to your attacks like a Battlemaster Maneuveurs.



No I asked for a cleric with crappy Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence, I never once mentioned limitation in either the spell selection or what spells he should cast

[Trandir]

Spells are magic. Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma are not.
Having 8 in every casting stats doesn't mean you can't use magic, it only means that you're stupid and ugly and most of your spells will suck.
The other way works too, a Battlemaster with 16 Intelligence doesn't know any spell and magic, he's just a smart guy.

I think you're confused with the game's stats somehow.

No I can assure you I confused nothing.

But somehow I feel like y'all took that line in the PC concept as a limitation while it is merely a reference to the fact that an unwise cleric is quite paradoxal that he can use his divine magic.

[Neoh]

No I can assure you I confused nothing.

But somehow I feel like y'all took that line in the PC concept as a limitation while it is merely a reference to the fact that an unwise cleric is quite paradoxal that he can use his divine magic.


Well if you're not confused you made a bad choice of words.

Spells are Magic. If you ask for a character that has nothing to do with Magic, you ask for a character that has no Spells.
Divine Magic literally has Magic in the name.

Anyway, I proposed some ideas for your build, have fun toying with them.

[Wuzza]

Our party (Life) Cleric happened to be a pre-gen with plate armour. He's since gained a +1 shield.

Currently the tankiest character in the party...… (and we have 2 fighters..., although one is an archer and the other is afk 50% of the time, so got 2nd dibs on the shield)

Spells are just gravy.

[Trandir]

Well if you're not confused you made a bad choice of words.

Spells are Magic. If you ask for a character that has nothing to do with Magic, you ask for a character that has no Spells.
Divine Magic literally has Magic in the name.

Anyway, I proposed some ideas for your build, have fun toying with them.

A cleric that should have nothing to do with magic. Not a cleric that can't cast a spell.

5e requires a minimum ability to multiclass into but not to begin as a class for some weird reason. If the concept was a Fighter 1/Cleric X it would fall appart for this very reason but a cleric X works. Wisdom/intelligence/charisma aren't magical by themeselves but one would expect that a cleric is wise,that a sorcerer is charismatic and that a wizard is intelligent and if all of them have 8 in their respective spellcasting ability they "should have nothing to do with their magic". Yes the choice of words is bad but again there was nothing in the OP limiting the spellcasting.

I will edit the OP to accomodate for a more hunderstandable reading.

Also thanks for the advice in how to build this PC

[Kane0]

The same way you do an EK fighter without intelligence. Take spells that don't use your spell attack bonus or DC like heals, buffs and rituals.

[TaiLiu]

A cleric that should have nothing to do with magic. Not a cleric that can't cast a spell.

[...]

Wisdom/intelligence/charisma aren't magical by themeselves but one would expect that a cleric is wise,that a sorcerer is charismatic and that a wizard is intelligent and if all of them have 8 in their respective spellcasting ability they "should have nothing to do with their magic". Yes the choice of words is bad but again there was nothing in the OP limiting the spellcasting.
Your exact word choices don't really concern me, but I can totally see why people would be confused. :smalltongue:

Those two sentences are only coherent together if "should" is understood in the specific and narrow sense of "A teacher (that teaches) but should have nothing to do with teaching," or the like. It took me multiple reads to grasp that. Instead, I think most people are reading it in the sense of, "I wanna build a cleric without magic, and hence without spells," which is the more immediate read.

5e requires a minimum ability to multiclass into but not to begin as a class for some weird reason. If the concept was a Fighter 1/Cleric X it would fall appart for this very reason but somehow cleric X/ fighter 1 works.
Nah, multiclassing requires a minimum ability score from both the base class and the class you're multiclassing towards. You can be a Cleric with 8 Wisdom, but you can't legally be a Cleric/Fighter with 8 Wisdom—you have to meet the requirements of both Cleric and Fighter.

[Trandir]

Nah, multiclassing requires a minimum ability score from both the base class and the class you're multiclassing towards. You can be a Cleric with 8 Wisdom, but you can't legally be a Cleric/Fighter with 8 Wisdom—you have to meet the requirements of both Cleric and Fighter.

My bad, It was Cleric X rather than Cleric X/Fighter 1


Ok now that the OP has been revised and the other issues have been adressed can we get back on track?

[CheddarChampion]

Variant human with a half-feat like HAM or Resilient (constitution) to get 16/16/16/8/8/8?
War Cleric's 'guided strike' would pair well with GWM or sharpshooter if you feel like going that route.
Life Cleric with warding bond and the healing bonuses would make a good tank.
Arcana Cleric could get you access to Booming Blade, Haste, and Tenser's Transformation (IIRC?). It might break your character concept though.

Be sure to get the spell 'holy weapon' from XGtE. Good stuff.

This type of thing should do fine for power at low levels but will likely start falling behind later on.

[Slipperychicken]

The dumb, ugly, reckless cleric [...]

This time the idea is simple: a cleric that has terrible magical cababilities but great physical ones.


So a paladin.

You want to play a paladin. Say his charisma isn't due to appearance, and you've solved it.

[Bobthewizard]

I would play a life cleric. You are a mediocre melee character, but the life cleric's disciple of life will offset your negative WIS modifier on your healing spells. You will primarily buff and heal. Disciple of life, blessed healer, and supreme healing don't rely on WIS. You get heavy armor and divine strike. The domain spells it gives you cover most of the cleric spells you'll need for buffing and healing. Even with the negative modifier, I'd probably still take spirit guardians at level 5.

[Talsin]

So, you've suggested Goliath Forge Cleric;

What about a Mountain Dwarf Arcane Cleric? Booming Blade is a good cantrip pick for no spellcasting mod, plus with the stat boosts you should be able to pick up Heavy Armor usage/ Mastery if you really want. (You might get better usage from Medium Mastery in this case, oddly enough).

ASI/Feats: +1str/con, +2str, +2con, Resilient DEX -OR- Weapon Master for Rapier +1 dex either way, Medium Armor Mastery.
This ends up with 20/16/20/8/8/8 with either extra damage, or extra survivability without penalizing armor or stealth.

Clerics have all sorts of spells that effect things without saves; Spirit Guardians still creates a radius of slowed movement and damage (though the damage can be halved).
Plus, as a cleric of Arcane, you can pick up some pretty nasty spells, including Forcecage, which may not allow for saves.

[SodaQueen]

Are you sold on forge cleric? I'm in the camp that you might have more fun with a paladin or eldritch knight.

I'm trying to understand what you're going for. Essentially a normal cleric with bad mental attributes correct? Maybe you could play up the lack of charisma to be downright grotesque and terrifying. I've played a game with someone who did just that to fun results (although he actually had high Charisma, fluffed as so uncharismatic that it kind of shoots the moon and comes back around)


Cool thread, I love to hear people screaming badwrongfun.You must be talking about another thread because literally noone is saying that.

[Trandir]

Variant human with a half-feat like HAM or Resilient (constitution) to get 16/16/16/8/8/8?
War Cleric's 'guided strike' would pair well with GWM or sharpshooter if you feel like going that route.
Life Cleric with warding bond and the healing bonuses would make a good tank.
Arcana Cleric could get you access to Booming Blade, Haste, and Tenser's Transformation (IIRC?). It might break your character concept though.

Be sure to get the spell 'holy weapon' from XGtE. Good stuff.

This type of thing should do fine for power at low levels but will likely start falling behind later on.


Thanks for the tips, unfortunately the arcana domain spells do not include either haste or tenser's transformation (this one is a 6th level spell so no domain can have it)


So a paladin.

You want to play a paladin. Say his charisma isn't due to appearance, and you've solved it.

Not exactly, a paladin is an half caster while the cleric is a full caster. A rude paladin isn't as limited and weak as crazy cleric.


I would play a life cleric. You are a mediocre melee character, but the life cleric's disciple of life will offset your negative WIS modifier on your healing spells. You will primarily buff and heal. Disciple of life, blessed healer, and supreme healing don't rely on WIS. You get heavy armor and divine strike. The domain spells it gives you cover most of the cleric spells you'll need for buffing and healing. Even with the negative modifier, I'd probably still take spirit guardians at level 5.

Well a Wis 8 healbot migh be interesting to play. And as usual spirit guardians are too good to pass even with a low DC



So, you've suggested Goliath Forge Cleric;

What about a Mountain Dwarf Arcane Cleric? Booming Blade is a good cantrip pick for no spellcasting mod, plus with the stat boosts you should be able to pick up Heavy Armor usage/ Mastery if you really want. (You might get better usage from Medium Mastery in this case, oddly enough).

ASI/Feats: +1str/con, +2str, +2con, Resilient DEX -OR- Weapon Master for Rapier +1 dex either way, Medium Armor Mastery.
This ends up with 20/16/20/8/8/8 with either extra damage, or extra survivability without penalizing armor or stealth.

Clerics have all sorts of spells that effect things without saves; Spirit Guardians still creates a radius of slowed movement and damage (though the damage can be halved).
Plus, as a cleric of Arcane, you can pick up some pretty nasty spells, including Forcecage, which may not allow for saves.

That was my first idea but one asks here also to see other possibly better ideas.


Mountain dwarf arcana cleric in medium with melee cantrips is intresting.




All in all this might be intrestig to play as from lv 1 to 8/10 after that it will rapidly loose ground compared to other "optimized" classes.

[Trandir]

Are you sold on forge cleric? I'm in the camp that you might have more fun with a paladin or eldritch knight.

I'm trying to understand what you're going for. Essentially a normal cleric with bad mental attributes correct? Maybe you could play up the lack of charisma to be downright grotesque and terrifying. I've played a game with someone who did just that to fun results (although he actually had high Charisma, fluffed as so uncharismatic that it kind of shoots the moon and comes back around)



I am not sold, I gust thought that a golia forge cleric sounded cool. I am happy to see someone concerned about the enjoiment of this PC but worry not, I am accumulating backupc characters including a SAD paladin. When the right time will come I will use this PC.


At it's core yes a cleric with bad wisdom. It might go full Dex with elf and pick up archery or go Str and try to be a melee fighter. any idea is good

[SodaQueen]

Oh! Actually, here's another idea. Maybe your dumb, ugly, reckless cleric isn't a cleric at all (in game, mechanically still a cleric) but like a divine conduit or something. Kind of like a favored soul but just inexplicably given divine powers. Minor miracles (ie your spells) happen all around your character without them consciously casting or even understanding what's happening. That could be fun

[Trandir]

Oh! Actually, here's another idea. Maybe your dumb, ugly, reckless cleric isn't a cleric at all (in game, mechanically still a cleric) but like a divine conduit or something. Kind of like a favored soul but just inexplicably given divine powers. Minor miracles (ie your spells) happen all around your character without them consciously casting or even understanding what's happening. That could be fun

That's another good idea. But for now I'm looking at a more mechanical help. Part of the fun of this unusual builds is to fluff around to explain how they work.

[SodaQueen]

That's another good idea. But for now I'm looking at a more mechanical help. Part of the fun of this unusual builds is to fluff around to explain how they work.Have you considered being skill focused to help compensate for the low attributes? Maybe pick up Prodigy if you're a human type or a dip into rogue to pick up expertise. It might be harder with your stats but you could work around it with smart skill selection

Otherwise, yeah focus on spells without attack rolls or saves. Drop a buff on yourself or a buddy and wade into the fray and hit people in the head with a blunt object to make them dumb and ugly

[Wildarm]

To answer the question: because I can.
I am aware that if one dump the spellcasting ability of a full caster you end up with garbage DPR compared to other "normal" or optimized build soon or later. This one in particular could work for lv 1-4 without much trouble and from 5-10 behind and after that you are just dead weight on the party shoulders. Still not every concept/build is for every campaign.

Dumping Wisdom on a cleric is not THAT big a deal as long as you can come up with a way to stay relevant turn to turn in battle. Focus on buff spells like Bless, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Healing Word, Aid, Warding Bond, Silence, Augury, Dispel Magic(3rd level or lower effects), Spirit Guardians(Great even if the save DC is not so high), Revivify, etc...

Mountain Dwarf Forge Cleric is probably a decent choice. At least put a token 10 in Wisdom and go with 17/14/17/8/10/8 for stats
Pickup Magic Initiate at level 4 to get booming blade. Will keep your melee damage respectable and make you more difficult to ignore.

V-Human Order War Domain cleric / Magic Initiate would be perfectly functional with this as well - 16/14/16/8/10/8

[CheddarChampion]

Thanks for the tips, unfortunately the arcana domain spells do not include either haste or tenser's transformation (this one is a 6th level spell so no domain can have it)

I think the final subclass ability lets you add spells to your spell list?
If that's correct and you ever get that far, TT would be a good pick for your concept.

[Talsin]

...snip...

That was my first idea but one asks here also to see other possibly better ideas.


Mountain dwarf arcana cleric in medium with melee cantrips is intresting.




All in all this might be intrestig to play as from lv 1 to 8/10 after that it will rapidly loose ground compared to other "optimized" classes.

I don't think it will lose that much ground compared to "optimized" classes, at least not any more so than any other 15/15/15/8/8/8 cleric builds with the restrictions you have in mind. It's not really a fair comparison to go against an "optimized" build when the intention is to clearly not "optimized".
Oddly enough, I ran a Paladin2/ArcaneClericX with the same intent really, just starting with the armor and weapon proficiency and divine smites. I found I didn't really need the divine smite to keep up, and I wound up healing often.

Life, as mentioned above would work well since it builds on non-offense. Death might do pretty well since it also covers some of the same niche.

[Trandir]

I think the final subclass ability lets you add spells to your spell list?
If that's correct and you ever get that far, TT would be a good pick for your concept.

It does indeed allow you to take one spell form 6-7-8-9 level. It works but lv 17 is probably too far for a PC like that to keep adventuring so I wasn't considering it.

[Talsin]

It does indeed allow you to take one spell form 6-7-8-9 level. It works but lv 17 is probably too far for a PC like that to keep adventuring so I wasn't considering it.

You seem to be pretty confident in shooting down ideas. I think Arcane Cleric could go pretty far, especially with the physical stat buffs being able to resist more effects that clerics would normally be susceptible to, while also bringing up HP that may normally have been middle-ground.

[Trandir]

You seem to be pretty confident in shooting down ideas. I think Arcane Cleric could go pretty far, especially with the physical stat buffs being able to resist more effects that clerics would normally be susceptible to, while also bringing up HP that may normally have been middle-ground.

I am not shutting down any idea. Arcane domain is one of the best contendors so far, forge and life are there too.
That was just a comment that a PC like that probably will fall (either litterally on the battlefield or figuratively in DPR) before lv 17.

[Talsin]

I am not shutting down any idea. Arcane domain is one of the best contendors so far, forge and life are there too.
That was just a comment that a PC like that probably will fall (either litterally on the battlefield or figuratively in DPR) before lv 17.

I suppose I would counter as - Why is it probably the PC would fall in those cases? DPR is not the end-all say-all for team composition. A Life cleric on its own may not have the same kind of DPR that this arcane cleric would have, but is still a viable build. Arcane cleric, or Forge still give good, strong benefits to the team - AND these cleric builds up CON like a melee combatant and have a more diverse portfolio of saves leading to a more survivable PC than some other builds, despite having less-than-optimized DPR, much like other support classes might. A Bard on its own probably won't do the same DPR unless it's built specifically for it.