Lost Paths: Voltaic is out! Whats your opinion on it?

[EisenKreutzer]

I’m a huge fan of Lost Spheres, and pretty much instabuy anything they put out.
The latest release is the voltaic, a novel and interesting take on the Path of War system we all know and love from DSP!

After reading through the PDF, my first impression was somewhat confused. It took a while to fully grasp the sparking system, but once I did I was very intrigued!
It’s a very different approach to gaining power. With the exception of saving throws, every d20 roll nets you a 5% chance to gain a maneuver, which feels sort of weird. The idea of a character that grows in power organically through play is interesting, but being dependent on dice rolls, especially with such a low percentage chance, feels like it could end up short changing the player.

I’m unsure about the power level of the class or the system, but it does look fun to play. The PoW system ensures lots of moving parts, and being able to choose freely between maneuvers across all disciplines is certainly appealing and opens up lots of tactics and options. But again, theres the 5% chance thing that on the surface seems to hamper the system.

I’ll have to see it in play before I make a real judgement, but as it stands now the whole thing feels novel and inteiguing, but also slightly worrying.

Has anyone else had the chance to look at lost Paths: Voltaic? Whats your take?

[Ssalarn]

I’m a huge fan of Lost Spheres, and pretty much instabuy anything they put out.
The latest release is the voltaic, a novel and interesting take on the Path of War system we all know and love from DSP!

After reading through the PDF, my first impression was somewhat confused. It took a while to fully grasp the sparking system, but once I did I was very intrigued!
It’s a very different approach to gaining power. With the exception of saving throws, every d20 roll nets you a 5% chance to gain a maneuver, which feels sort of weird. The idea of a character that grows in power organically through play is interesting, but being dependent on dice rolls, especially with such a low percentage chance, feels like it could end up short changing the player.

I’m unsure about the power level of the class or the system, but it does look fun to play. The PoW system ensures lots of moving parts, and being able to choose freely between maneuvers across all disciplines is certainly appealing and opens up lots of tactics and options. But again, theres the 5% chance thing that on the surface seems to hamper the system.

I’ll have to see it in play before I make a real judgement, but as it stands now the whole thing feels novel and inteiguing, but also slightly worrying.

Has anyone else had the chance to look at lost Paths: Voltaic? Whats your take?

The potential for poor rolls is why I added the Variant Sparking sidebar on page 9. If you're hitting the first of those milestones and your dice have been recalcitrant to the point that you haven't sparked yet, I'd definitely bring those into play. In playtesting we didn't bump into the "low roll wall", but I definitely figured it would hit some folks and wanted to include that dial.

[Galacktic]

So I picked it up and gave it a quick read through:

My thoughts on the Voltaic itself and the Spark discipline are...meh? They're serviceable, but not a ton of flavor in them, and I feel that the real gem of the book is the Sparking subsystem. I -adore- it, but I do have a question!

Was the Spark subsystem built with the Weapon Group Adaptation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/weapon-group-adaptation-combat/) feat in mind? With it, it's trivial to have a weapon - at the cost of two feats at first level - that you can use all maneuvers with, including ranged if you do some nonsense with thrown weapons. I'd love the ability to just pick and choose from the entirety of the list, because that'd be an absolute dream, but I understand if this particular feat fell through the cracks.

Another question actually: Was this sub-system designed with Sparking from the SaGa series in mind? :tongue:

[StSword]

So that's the sparking system? Gaining a maneuver if you roll a nat 20?

I had wondered what it entailed.

Voltaic certainly got my interest, so it's in my wishlist, but I had wished the description was a bit more descriptive.

Hardly the only product i have such wishes for, quite a few times I read a description and think to myself "Okay, new class, okay, and exactly what about it is so cool I should be salivating like a Pavlovian dog for it?"

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Basically, instead of starting with maneuvers known, you can roll an intelligence check to learn maneuvers when rolling a 20 in combat or an opponent rolling a natural 1. The other part of the system is that to actually execute your maneuvers, you have to spend stamina points, which you get from the base Spark of Inspiration feat.

Here lies my problems with the system; your maneuvers known may vary widely, but you can only initiate 2-3 maneuvers per fight before you run out; there is no recovery, unless you get another chance at Sparking, have a slot left or choose to forget another maneuver, and haven't run out of Sparking chances per level.

The class itself is pretty simple, though, which is probably to its advantage with how versatile it can be.

[EisenKreutzer]

Basically, instead of starting with maneuvers known, you can roll an intelligence check to learn maneuvers when rolling a 20 in combat or an opponent rolling a natural 1. The other part of the system is that to actually execute your maneuvers, you have to spend stamina points, which you get from the base Spark of Inspiration feat.

Here lies my problems with the system; your maneuvers known may vary widely, but you can only initiate 2-3 maneuvers per fight before you run out; there is no recovery, unless you get another chance at Sparking, have a slot left or choose to forget another maneuver, and haven't run out of Sparking chances per level.

The class itself is pretty simple, though, which is probably to its advantage with how versatile it can be.

All three stamina feats in Pathfinder Unchained are combat feats, so they are eligeble for martial flexibility. Push the Limit might be a good feat to gain with it, for example, because it drastically increases your available stamina.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

All three stamina feats in Pathfinder Unchained are combat feats, so they are eligeble for martial flexibility. Push the Limit might be a good feat to gain with it, for example, because it drastically increases your available stamina.

... Are you looking at the same feat as I am? Push the Limits only gets you an extra stamina pool with your constitution modifier, that you can only spend when you are at 0 with your normal pool. Extra Stamina increases your pool by 3, and can be taken up to 3 times.

[EisenKreutzer]

... Are you looking at the same feat as I am? Push the Limits only gets you an extra stamina pool with your constitution modifier, that you can only spend when you are at 0 with your normal pool. Extra Stamina increases your pool by 3, and can be taken up to 3 times.

The being at zero restriction is basically meaningless, and your con modifier will probably be 4+ for most of the game. It’s also one feat, rather than two or three.
Extra stamina might be a better choice early on, but I think Push the Limits has its place.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The being at zero restriction is basically meaningless, and your con modifier will probably be 4+ for most of the game. It’s also one feat, rather than two or three.
Extra stamina might be a better choice early on, but I think Push the Limits has its place.

It means you can't access it until you are fatigued, and you get 4-6 points if you have prioritized Constitution your entire career, 2-3 if you haven't. And again, you can't combine them; your modifier needs to be 1:1 to the level of any maneuver you want to use, and you are exhausted afterwards, which is a hell of a debuff which can't be removed easily.

[EisenKreutzer]

It means you can't access it until you are fatigued, and you get 4-6 points if you have prioritized Constitution your entire career, 2-3 if you haven't. And again, you can't combine them; your modifier needs to be 1:1 to the level of any maneuver you want to use, and you are exhausted afterwards, which is a hell of a debuff which can't be removed easily.

Yeah, thats all true. I guess I overvalued that feat a bit, Extra Stamina seems flat out better.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It's definitely a risky feat, but if you have a certain maneuver you know you want to have on tap at all times, it might be worth it, but you have to fiddle around to get to 0 stamina sometimes. Otherwise, my point still stands, and the combat stamina requirement adds a further feat tax. Compared to other initiators, the Voltaic lacks a lot of staying power; granted, that may be a good thing in some people's eyes (my group is torn on PoW, and the Voltaic might be a good midway), but I wouldn't compare it to something like the Zealot.

[StSword]

Sounds like this class would really benefit by merging the Books of Martial Action 1 and 2 rules into Combat Stamina.

I've pictured that before, it's not like fighter types need two separate pools that represent their ability to go above and beyond.

Books of Martial Action are a bit more powerful, with three feats that add +5 to the pool, and a feat that allows one to spend a full action to recover half their points once per minute.

Might swing more the other way though, since BoMA techniques are combat feats, which would be available through martial flexibility....

[Ssalarn]

So I picked it up and gave it a quick read through:

My thoughts on the Voltaic itself and the Spark discipline are...meh? They're serviceable, but not a ton of flavor in them, and I feel that the real gem of the book is the Sparking subsystem. I -adore- it, but I do have a question!

Thanks! The Voltaic and Spark of Battle really exist to showcase the Sparking subsystem.



Was the Spark subsystem built with the Weapon Group Adaptation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/weapon-group-adaptation-combat/) feat in mind? With it, it's trivial to have a weapon - at the cost of two feats at first level - that you can use all maneuvers with, including ranged if you do some nonsense with thrown weapons. I'd love the ability to just pick and choose from the entirety of the list, because that'd be an absolute dream, but I understand if this particular feat fell through the cracks.

Another question actually: Was this sub-system designed with Sparking from the SaGa series in mind? :tongue:


Sounds like this class would really benefit by merging the Books of Martial Action 1 and 2 rules into Combat Stamina.

I've pictured that before, it's not like fighter types need two separate pools that represent their ability to go above and beyond.

Books of Martial Action are a bit more powerful, with three feats that add +5 to the pool, and a feat that allows one to spend a full action to recover half their points once per minute.

Might swing more the other way though, since BoMA techniques are combat feats, which would be available through martial flexibility....

I essentially see these as mods that you can use or not as appropriate to your game. The voltaic and sparking are intentionally notched a degree below standard initiators because of how much flexibility they have; if you want to ratchet them up, then options like Weapon Group Adaptation or other martial enhancement supplements make a lot of sense. If you're looking for something that sits a notch lower on the general power scale than standard initiatiors but has a lot of room to flex and evolve, I probably wouldn't bring those elements into play.

[Ssalarn]

Here lies my problems with the system; your maneuvers known may vary widely, but you can only initiate 2-3 maneuvers per fight before you run out; there is no recovery, unless you get another chance at Sparking, have a slot left or choose to forget another maneuver, and haven't run out of Sparking chances per level.


Apparently I missed this the first time, but I was asked about it in another conversation and wanted to share the response here as well:

The above is not correct. You can regain your Con modifier in stamina points by using total defense as a standard action in addition to sparking new maneuvers. It's in the sparking subsystem rules on page 9 in the same paragraph that describes how you use stamina points to activate a maneuver. So voltaics and other sparking characters can spark new maneuvers as normal (a 10% chance per attack roll, associated skill check, or enemy attack against the initiator if you're in Eye of the Storm), increase their maneuvers available by manipulating their stamina pool with feats as discussed in the thread, or use a total defense action to turtle up and reposition while recharging some stamina points (which can also be combined with using e.g. an Acrobatics check to disengage and move past an enemy without provoking an attack of opportunity, giving you another chance to spark a "free" boost with low odds of negative consequences while you recharge some other maneuvers).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Thank you for addressing my concern; I did miss that when I was reading it, and it does a bit to alleviate some of my concerns about the class. Granted, I don't think its enough; the class becomes very MAD since you need whatever your attack stat is, Constitution to recover, and use Intelligence as their Initiation Modifier, and it loses steam past as your maneuvers start climbing in levels.