GURPS vs. BRP vs. OSR

[Thinker]

Hello everyone,
My group has just finished up a space opera campaign using Uncharted Worlds (a Powered by the Apocalypse game) and we are looking for another game to play. For half of my current group, this was their first RPG and for the other half, they have experience with a wider range of games. I'm planning to run a fairly standard dungeon-exploration game (see premise in spoiler) in the near-future and am trying to decide between GURPS, BRP, and OSR. Three of us have experience with GURPS for a modern game, BRP through Delta Green and WFRP 2e, and DnD 3.5e. I have heard good things about some of the OSR games and how they modernized some of the finicky rules with older editions of DnD, but have never played them.

Here are my reservations about each system:

GURPS - GURPS will take the most effort up-front and may be harder for players to figure out advancement. There are so many options that even if we use GURPS Lite with select other additions, it can be overwhelming for the players.
BRP - I am not super familiar with BRP for anything but Delta Green right now. I am not even sure if there is a generic fantasy version available right now instead of Runequest.
OSR - I have not played any older editions of DnD than 3e. I do not care for Vancian casting in 3.5e, but that may not be representative of magic in older editions of DnD.


What I'm looking for

Easy to play
Easy for novice players to understand the rules
Applying character points, leveling up, or other advancement is an easy exercise for the players
Unique-feeling characters
Non-Vancian magic (negotiable)
Non-HP wound system (negotiable)



You are members of the renowned Cognitium Library in the duchy of Meadow Mountain. The library itself is thousands of years old, greatly predating the Verdant Coast city-states, duchies, and kingdoms. Some legends say that the library even predates settlement at Cognitium, its original name lost to time. Because Cognitium sits at a major crossroad and the fork of the North and South Meadow Rivers, the city has become one of the largest and most important on the Verdant Coast. This has led to the Library collecting legends, myths, knowledge, treasures, and wonders from across the world. It has also attracted raiders, tyrants, and fanatical priests who have decimated the Library’s collection.
These days, the Library seeks to recover stolen artifacts, explore areas unknown to the Verdant Coast, uncover new trade routes, learn about new people, and to catalog the marvels of the world. Unfortunately, the world is a dangerous place and what is a font of knowledge to the library is a treasure worth killing for to a bandit. A curiosity to a scholar is an idol of a god to a primitive tribe deep in the jungle. So, the Library has employed a network of agents across the world to listen for rumors and to investigate claims. They have hired teams of warriors, thieves, mystics, rangers, and scholars to recover their relics and return with new ones. And, while they do have a sizeable treasury thanks to endowments from the wealthy, the Library also hires out the services of its teams to cover their operations.




Any suggestions from the playground?

Thanks!

[Khedrac]

BRP - I am not super familiar with BRP for anything but Delta Green right now. I am not even sure if there is a generic fantasy version available right now instead of Runequest.
This would be 'Basic Roleplaying' itself, also known as the 'Big Gold Book', it contains some options for a fantasy campaign and is pretty easy to learn.

It isn't the same as RuneQuest, for one thing it does not contain a hit location system (which all versions of RQ have used) but simple total hit points (like Call of Cthulhu etc.).

It is a hit-point-based system, but, since it is not level-based and hit points are not boosted by experience, combat is dangerous and best avoided if possible (alternatively always outnumber your opponents).
There are a couple of magic system provided (iirc), but generally magic is non-Vancian and is a spell-point system based on the caster's Power statistic.

Because it is a percetage skill system, improving skills involves rolling over them (unlike using them which requires rolling under) so is very easy for new players, there are no experience points to track.

[Willie the Duck]

BRP is 'the Runequest' engine (although, as pointed out, there are differences), and is all about fantasy and does fantasy combat. My one word of caution is that if you have people who are relatively new to gaming that you have to shepherd through it, you really want someone who is pretty familiar with it doing the shepherding. IT's not great for 'let's all (GM included) learn this together. Other than that, it is a solid system, with many variants for whatever playstyle you find fun.

OSR is… well honestly it's D&D. TSR-era D&D, where you have fewer character-build options, but D&D nonetheless. Once you get through some basic concepts like 1st level is scary deadly, not everything is going to be fair, and there aren't as many universal resolution mechanics, it looks quite a bit like the D&D you know. Each OSR game system will have their own nuances, but most of them are going to have Vancian casting (it's the game that popularized it, after all).

GURPS... who boy! Let's first say that it is a great game! If you've played it before for modern times, then you know about some of the biggest limitations (complexity, going from a 100 pt. character to a 103 pt. character doesn't have the same pizzazz as 'leveling up', characters within the human norm are very fragile to combat, etc.). If you're fine with that, it works. It should be noted, however, that the type of fantasy game that it makes is very low-power, fragile, unheroic style of play. Yes, you can make wizards who throw fire and warriors can armor up to resist quite a bit, but you still don't leap across 10' wide pits or lift the portcullis by yourself unless you've specifically paid for abilities outside the norm.

If you are looking for other games that fit your bullet points, I might suggest Worlds Apart, Symbaroum (has its' own setting, but has a relatively simple game engine that could be ported to your setting), or Forbidden Lands (close to OSR feel, but different mechanics from D&D).

[kyoryu]

Of the choices, I'd probably argue for BRP, based on your criteria. GURPS is a candidate, but it's higher on the complexity meter (for those arguing, GURPS is one of my systems of choice).

You've chosen three pretty old-school, "traditional" games. Is this a strong criteria?

[Thinker]

This would be 'Basic Roleplaying' itself, also known as the 'Big Gold Book', it contains some options for a fantasy campaign and is pretty easy to learn.

It isn't the same as RuneQuest, for one thing it does not contain a hit location system (which all versions of RQ have used) but simple total hit points (like Call of Cthulhu etc.).

It is a hit-point-based system, but, since it is not level-based and hit points are not boosted by experience, combat is dangerous and best avoided if possible (alternatively always outnumber your opponents).
There are a couple of magic system provided (iirc), but generally magic is non-Vancian and is a spell-point system based on the caster's Power statistic.

Because it is a percetage skill system, improving skills involves rolling over them (unlike using them which requires rolling under) so is very easy for new players, there are no experience points to track.

Thanks for the advice. How does it do at letting players feel heroic? In Delta Green, combat is always a crap shoot - it's likely that half the team is going to be rolling new characters for the next mission. But that game is supposed to be one of desperation. Would that be the case in a dungeon-crawling adventure? If they went dungeon delving into an ancient labyrinth filled with dozens of baddies, traps, and hazards, would we need to be making new characters by the next session? I do want combat to feel violent and at times brutal, but I also want to have continuity between sessions if possible.


BRP is 'the Runequest' engine (although, as pointed out, there are differences), and is all about fantasy and does fantasy combat. My one word of caution is that if you have people who are relatively new to gaming that you have to shepherd through it, you really want someone who is pretty familiar with it doing the shepherding. IT's not great for 'let's all (GM included) learn this together. Other than that, it is a solid system, with many variants for whatever playstyle you find fun.

OSR is… well honestly it's D&D. TSR-era D&D, where you have fewer character-build options, but D&D nonetheless. Once you get through some basic concepts like 1st level is scary deadly, not everything is going to be fair, and there aren't as many universal resolution mechanics, it looks quite a bit like the D&D you know. Each OSR game system will have their own nuances, but most of them are going to have Vancian casting (it's the game that popularized it, after all).

GURPS... who boy! Let's first say that it is a great game! If you've played it before for modern times, then you know about some of the biggest limitations (complexity, going from a 100 pt. character to a 103 pt. character doesn't have the same pizzazz as 'leveling up', characters within the human norm are very fragile to combat, etc.). If you're fine with that, it works. It should be noted, however, that the type of fantasy game that it makes is very low-power, fragile, unheroic style of play. Yes, you can make wizards who throw fire and warriors can armor up to resist quite a bit, but you still don't leap across 10' wide pits or lift the portcullis by yourself unless you've specifically paid for abilities outside the norm.

If you are looking for other games that fit your bullet points, I might suggest Worlds Apart, Symbaroum (has its' own setting, but has a relatively simple game engine that could be ported to your setting), or Forbidden Lands (close to OSR feel, but different mechanics from D&D).

For BRP, I have played Delta Green, which uses the BRP rules and a long time ago played WFRP, which also used BRP. So it wouldn't be all new to everyone. That said, I certainly wouldn't be an expert in a new flavor of BRP.

For OSR, I'm aware that it's basically DnD, which makes it easier for the group overall. Half have played some variant of DnD, which makes it easy to pick up and go.

I enjoy GURPS, but it does have a lot of complexity and can be overwhelming. I haven't had to teach a new player GURPS in many years so I don't really remember how hard it was. I was thinking of starting off with ~200 point characters to give them more survivability and fantasy-inspired powers at the outset, but that also makes it harder to create characters.

Thanks for the suggestions of other games. I'll give them a look.


Of the choices, I'd probably argue for BRP, based on your criteria. GURPS is a candidate, but it's higher on the complexity meter (for those arguing, GURPS is one of my systems of choice).

You've chosen three pretty old-school, "traditional" games. Is this a strong criteria?

Yeah. I enjoy GURPS, but it is a bit on the complex side. I was thinking of starting with GURPS lite, which is only ~40 pages, but even then it can be pretty complex. I have been leaning toward BRP, but am simply looking for more opinions about all three of the above.

I went for sort of traditional games since we've lately been playing things like Blades in the Dark, Uncharted Worlds, Apocalypse World, Dungeon World, Star Wars by Fantasy Flight, and Monster of the Week. I want to do a less narrative-focused system where we can explore dungeons, rescue prisoners, and uncover lost artifacts for a bit. The others are on-board so I just need to find the best tool for the job.

[Lord Torath]

I'd recommend For Gold and Glory (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156530/For-Gold--Glory), It's an update of 2E AD&D rules - an OSR option - and is available for free.

[Aneurin]

Thanks for the advice. How does it do at letting players feel heroic? In Delta Green, combat is always a crap shoot - it's likely that half the team is going to be rolling new characters for the next mission. But that game is supposed to be one of desperation. Would that be the case in a dungeon-crawling adventure? If they went dungeon delving into an ancient labyrinth filled with dozens of baddies, traps, and hazards, would we need to be making new characters by the next session? I do want combat to feel violent and at times brutal, but I also want to have continuity between sessions if possible.

I've no experience with BRP itself, just WFRP 2e. So this may not be entirely accurate. But yes, characters can be and feel heroic, and yes, a dungeon crawl like that will kill most, if not all, of the party.

The solution is not to run a D&D style death trap because, while a D&D character can survive that, quite a lot of other systems will fail miserably to support it. WFRP (and probably BRP) are among the systems that won't, because they're too lethal to handle semi-continual attrition-based combat - you just can't have throw-away combats for the sole purpose of depleting party resources in a system where every fight is potentially lethal, because characters will end up dead very quickly without absolutely obscene amounts of luck.

But that doesn't mean they can't fight. It just means that fights shouldn't happen "because", there needs to be a reason - either the PCs chose the fight, or they really screwed up.

And as for heroic? Sure. Totally possible. Heck, I'd argue that the players feeling like Big Damn Heroes is actually easier to achieve with lethal combat; when the dice are with them, it'll really, really show - like when they take down the giant that should have stomped them into paste without taking a scratch. And lethal doesn't mean they can't win - it just means there's probably going to be a high cost.

[Khedrac]

Thanks for the advice. How does it do at letting players feel heroic? In Delta Green, combat is always a crap shoot - it's likely that half the team is going to be rolling new characters for the next mission. But that game is supposed to be one of desperation. Would that be the case in a dungeon-crawling adventure? If they went dungeon delving into an ancient labyrinth filled with dozens of baddies, traps, and hazards, would we need to be making new characters by the next session? I do want combat to feel violent and at times brutal, but I also want to have continuity between sessions if possible.

For BRP, I have played Delta Green, which uses the BRP rules and a long time ago played WFRP, which also used BRP. So it wouldn't be all new to everyone. That said, I certainly wouldn't be an expert in a new flavor of BRP.
As far as I know (and I briefly played a very little WFRP about 30 years ago) WFRP does not use the BRP engine - BRP is Chaosium and was licensed to Avalon Hill (and published by Games Workshop), but WFRP is Games Workshop who never held the license for BRP and would not have been able to use the system straight.
That said, a lot of people produced very similar systems - Top Secret SI from TSR used the same idea, but it wasn't BRP.

The main thing for making the players feel heroic is to let them fight less capable opponenets. If the party's combat skills are around 50% then don't let most of the opponenets they face be above 25%. Also let the PCs outnumber their opponents (even if just by careful use of choke points); combat is designed aroound 1 on 1 fighting so it is very hard to defend against multiple attackers. Again, don't give the enemies decent ranged attacks - that way the party can hammer them while they close to melee.
For traps etc., make sure all the characters try their skills to find them - if the person with a 90% skill fails the person with a 10% skill still might succeed. Also, for really making them feel like Indiana Jones - fudge the dice rolls and announce that the crushing stone door closes just behind them not on them regardless of the roll.
That said, it isn't D&D and trying to play it like D&D will usually wipe the party - but since everyone can cast spells and use skills, alternative solutions should be easier for the party to come up with and deploy.

[Zakhara]

Depending how important you feel Vancian magic needs to be avoided, OSR likely can't satisfy that.

However, there are plenty of OSR-inspired games that take the extremely lightweight "common sense" rules and run with them in different directions. Three you may enjoy (in escalating severity) are:

1.) "World of Dungeons." John Harper's 'old-school' Dungeon World hack, paring down core Powered by the Apocalypse principles to only about a page of actual rules. Can be played classless, using mixed-and-matched skills and abilities. Uses "spirits" as the magic system (which play something like a mix of genie wishes and cleric domains).

2.) "Maze Rats." Very minimalist attributes/combat, and boasts a unique magic system where randomly generated physical/spiritual effects are prepared every adventure.

3.) "Searchers of the Unknown." This is an extremely pared-down take on TSR D&D, owing to its lack of magic-using characters (items/artifacts can exist, though). Requires some familiarity to take advantage of.

[AuraTwilight]

If you want an OSR game with non-Vancian spellcasting, you might want to try The GLOG (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-glog.html).

[Gnoman]

I enjoy GURPS, but it does have a lot of complexity and can be overwhelming. I haven't had to teach a new player GURPS in many years so I don't really remember how hard it was. I was thinking of starting off with ~200 point characters to give them more survivability and fantasy-inspired powers at the outset, but that also makes it harder to create characters.


I've been teaching a lot of new players GURPS lately, and it seems to go easily enough as long as you use templates and guided character creation ("what do you want your character to be good at? Then you should consider these skills and these advantages/disadvantages"). A lot of work for the GM, but not so much for the player. I've found that the relative simplicity of play goes a long way toward easing people into it.


Just don't run any of the Dungeon Fantasy modules. Don't even look at them. They're quite sadistic.

[Mr Beer]

GURPS has a Dungeon Fantasy series which is plug and play dungeon bash complete with 250 CP character templates. I highly recommend it if you enjoy GURPS but don't want to spend 30 hours working all that kind of stuff out ahead of schedule.

[Bucky]

(going from a 100 pt. character to a 103 pt. character doesn't have the same pizzazz as 'leveling up', characters within the human norm are very fragile to combat, etc.)

These are both easily patched, if you want a different game feel. Hand out character points in larger chunks every few sessions, and discount the 'extra hp' advantage for the campaign (or change the HP formula) while removing the bleeding rules.

[Willie the Duck]

These are both easily patched, if you want a different game feel. Hand out character points in larger chunks every few sessions, and discount the 'extra hp' advantage for the campaign (or change the HP formula) while removing the bleeding rules.

I'm not going to tell you how things work with your group, but no, it isn't that easy, at least not for my groups. Larger chunks is fine, but a 110 point character after session 3-5 is mechanically the same as a 110 point character made that way from the beginning. Games where you level have an advantage (or disadvantage if you want to capture a character concept before you're allowed the parts you feel are needed) of having an ordinal sequence of when things come online. Mind you, you can of course start out with a 5th level character in D&D or the like, but there's a sense that the base assumption is that you start at level 1 (or at the very least, the character went through those levels, even if you only dropped in on their lives at this point). It's all about feel, so there's no right answer.

Regarding fragile humans, you certainly can give extra hp, but that strays outside the 'human norm' parameter I discussed. Regardless, even with a hit point total of 5-15 'normal hits' worth of damage, and without the bleed rules, combat is still going to be brutal in GURPS (and so by design). There are stun rules for basic attacks (not a special ability or the like). Movement is charted by the second, meaning closing distances or reload/recover-from-swing actions are going to make you feel glacial vs an opponent who can attack every turn. Even high powered characters are going to have trouble against even mildly higher numbers on the other side. Most importantly, of course, is that losing a character entails a huge amount of building a new one.

None of which is to say that it is insurmountable, nor that GURPS is a bad game (I did make very clear in the post you quoted that I think the game is a great one), simply that it has qualities that might not be the best fit for all situations, and they require more than a quick patch to address (often the best fix is to play the game in settings that support its' strengths, or with players for which any of these supposed issues are not issues for them).

[Thinker]

For what it is worth, I settled on Five Candles Deep, an OSR game based on a stripped-down 5e. Here's how it measures up with my criteria laid out at the beginning.



Easy to play - Done. Roll d20 + Attributes + Proficiency (if applicable). Normally, DC is 11. Most of the game is about problem solving without rolling. They use a couple of mechanics like Advantage/Disadvantage and resource management.
Easy for novice players to understand the rules - Done. It's d20 so that part is easy already. At 45 pages including the GMing section and presented in a way that makes it easy to print off handouts, this seems easy breezy.
Applying character points, leveling up, or other advancement is an easy exercise for the players. - Done. Your entire level-up is baked into your class with no real choices except attribute advancement.
Unique-feeling characters. - Partial. There are only 4 classes - Warrior, Thief, Zealot, and Mage and 4 races - Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling. Characters also unlock an archetype at level 3 and advance in it at level 7, which adds some variety. I may add backgrounds, traits, or feats to expand this a little bit.
Non-Vancian magic (negotiable) - Done. Magic is cast via spell casting checks, but you can cast all day so long as you keep making those checks. A fail triggers a magical mishap and then you can't cast anymore until you rest.
Non-HP wound system (negotiable) - Not done. HP is baked into the system, but this one was a long shot.


Thanks for everyone's input.

[Vegan Squirrel]

For what it is worth, I settled on Five Candles Deep, an OSR game based on a stripped-down 5e. Here's how it measures up with my criteria laid out at the beginning.



Easy to play - Done. Roll d20 + Attributes + Proficiency (if applicable). Normally, DC is 11. Most of the game is about problem solving without rolling. They use a couple of mechanics like Advantage/Disadvantage and resource management.
Easy for novice players to understand the rules - Done. It's d20 so that part is easy already. At 45 pages including the GMing section and presented in a way that makes it easy to print off handouts, this seems easy breezy.
Applying character points, leveling up, or other advancement is an easy exercise for the players. - Done. Your entire level-up is baked into your class with no real choices except attribute advancement.
Unique-feeling characters. - Partial. There are only 4 classes - Warrior, Thief, Zealot, and Mage and 4 races - Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling. Characters also unlock an archetype at level 3 and advance in it at level 7, which adds some variety. I may add backgrounds, traits, or feats to expand this a little bit.
Non-Vancian magic (negotiable) - Done. Magic is cast via spell casting checks, but you can cast all day so long as you keep making those checks. A fail triggers a magical mishap and then you can't cast anymore until you rest.
Non-HP wound system (negotiable) - Not done. HP is baked into the system, but this one was a long shot.


Thanks for everyone's input.

Those details sound fantastic! Where did you find Five Candles Deep? All that comes up when I google it is a horror game called Ten Candles, which sounds pretty different.

[Thinker]

Those details sound fantastic! Where did you find Five Candles Deep? All that comes up when I google it is a horror game called Ten Candles, which sounds pretty different.

I misremembered the title. It is Five Torches Deep found here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/264584/Five-Torches-Deep

As an OSR game, a lot of the challenge is up to the players to come up with solutions, rather than rolling their abilities or skills to do that for them. One nice aspect of this game is that it is compatible with both 5e and OSR modules with some light tweaking.

[Vegan Squirrel]

I misremembered the title. It is Five Torches Deep found here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/264584/Five-Torches-Deep

As an OSR game, a lot of the challenge is up to the players to come up with solutions, rather than rolling their abilities or skills to do that for them. One nice aspect of this game is that it is compatible with both 5e and OSR modules with some light tweaking.

Thank you! I bought it based on your review, and I have to say, it handles all of my issues with 5e in all the right ways. Low power, gritty healing, the best bits of 5e's mechanics, simple 4e-style monster roles and encounters built to an OSR HD scale, and simple, elegant design decisions to cover all the usual rules needs while keeping the rules out of the way. Plus that close-enough compatibility to run interesting content from a number of systems and editions. And it shouldn't be too hard to hack together more races and classes as needed.

Much happy gaming to you!

[Thinker]

Thank you! I bought it based on your review, and I have to say, it handles all of my issues with 5e in all the right ways. Low power, gritty healing, the best bits of 5e's mechanics, simple 4e-style monster roles and encounters built to an OSR HD scale, and simple, elegant design decisions to cover all the usual rules needs while keeping the rules out of the way. Plus that close-enough compatibility to run interesting content from a number of systems and editions. And it shouldn't be too hard to hack together more races and classes as needed.

Much happy gaming to you!

I'm glad it ticked your boxes as well. Have fun.