Barbarian and Wis Saves

[Expected]

I like the idea of playing a Barbarian and it's similar to the Fighter I play in my other campaign, but I can't justify playing one because of their abysmal Wis saves. I can deal damage, tank damage, but the moment I'm forced to make a Wis save, I can potentially TPK my party. Assuming any sourcebook (but not adventure as it is a homebrew campaign), is there any way to counter it?

I was thinking of starting with 16-12-16-8-13-8 (tel:16-12-16-8-13-8) (Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha) and taking +2 Dex and Resilient: Wis, but will that be enough? We do not have a Paladin in our party to help with Aura of Protection.

[SteelArcana]

I like the idea of playing a Barbarian and it's similar to the Fighter I play in my other campaign, but I can't justify playing one because of their abysmal Wis saves. I can deal damage, tank damage, but the moment I'm forced to make a Wis save, I can potentially TPK my party. Assuming any sourcebook (but not adventure as it is a homebrew campaign), is there any way to counter it?

I was thinking of starting with 16-12-16-8-13-8 (tel:16-12-16-8-13-8) (Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha) and taking +2 Dex and Resilient: Wis, but will that be enough? We do not have a Paladin in our party to help with Aura of Protection.

Do you have a cleric who can cast bless on you? If so, 10-14 wisdom with proficiency should be enough to have a reasonable chance at not getting knee-capped by your typical hold person, charm or fear.

Personally I wouldn't put any more than 11 wisdom on a barbarian as it starts to take away from the strengths of the class.

[CheddarChampion]

14 Wis and proficiency is indeed enough. Don't build for it if you need more, just try to get a cloak/ring of protection and maybe a mantle of spell resistance.

BTW I'd leave Dex at 12. What's one point of AC when you're looking at a max of 16 AC beforehand, you attack recklessly, and you have resistance? Str+2 or a feat will probably help you more.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm currently playing a vHuman Zealot that started 16, 14, 14 ,9, 14, 8. That's point buy with Racial ASIs and Resilient Wisdom included.

For AC I just wear the best Medium Armor I can get. (Edit: This is why I keep Dex at 14 instead of lower. It has more tangible benefit at 14 vs 12 than dropping Con from 16 to 14.)

The amount of times where +1 hp per level and +1 Con Save would have made a difference has been pretty small. Not noticeable even. But I have noticed when Proficiency to Wis saves has kept me from being Incapacitated or worse.

[KorvinStarmast]

But I have noticed when Proficiency to Wis saves has kept me from being Incapacitated or worse.I noticed that also. :)

[Yunru]

What's one point of AC when you're looking at a max of 16 AC beforehand, you attack recklessly
Umm... massive?

Let's look at a few numbers:
They would hit on a 5 - A +1 AC takes the chance of hitting you from 96% to 93.75%. That's a decrease of 2.25%
They would hit on a 10 - A +1 AC takes the chance of hitting you from 79.75% to 75%. That's a decrease of 4.75%
They would hit on a 15 - A +1 AC takes the chance of hitting you from 51% to 43.75%. That's a decrease of 7.25%

[dragoeniex]

Alternative strategy that works wonders in my group: Treat your full casters kindly and let them know you'd really appreciate them picking up Dispel Magic and/or Counterspell.

I'm on both ends of this between two games, and it works pretty well. If you'd rather self-rely for it, though, 14 Wis and proficiency is as much as most non-monks and clerics are ever going to get.

[CheddarChampion]

Umm... massive?

Let's look at a few numbers:
They would hit on a 5 - A +1 AC takes the chance of hitting you from 96% to 93.75%. That's a decrease of 2.25%
They would hit on a 10 - A +1 AC takes the chance of hitting you from 79.75% to 75%. That's a decrease of 4.75%
They would hit on a 15 - A +1 AC takes the chance of hitting you from 51% to 43.75%. That's a decrease of 7.25%

I agree with the numbers but I'm wondering how useful that is.
Let's say a creature swings for 10 average damage. But you resist that while raging, so it's 5 on average. With +1 AC, you get hit, let's say, 5% less often on average. Against such a creature, +1 AC is worth 0.25 damage less per attack on average. At the 7.25% example, it's worth 0.3625 damage less per hit.

Now this part is opinion, but I'd rather have +1 to hit and damage, GWM, or PAM.

[Yunru]

I agree with the numbers but I'm wondering how useful that is.
Let's say a creature swings for 10 average damage. But you resist that while raging, so it's 5 on average. With +1 AC, you get hit, let's say, 5% less often on average. Against such a creature, +1 AC is worth 0.25 damage less per attack on average. At the 7.25% example, it's worth 0.3625 damage less per hit.

Now this part is opinion, but I'd rather have +1 to hit and damage, GWM, or PAM.

Yes but by contrast, you'll be making between 1 and 3 attacks per round, whereas each creature will tend to make between 1 and 2 attacks per round, with multiple creatures attacking you per round.

[CheddarChampion]

Yes but by contrast, you'll be making between 1 and 3 attacks per round, whereas each creature will tend to make between 1 and 2 attacks per round, with multiple creatures attacking you per round.

Valid point. Damage per hit goes above 10, too...
I'd personally take something other than Dex+2 but I can see it's merit. I'll revise my original statement to: Dex+2 isn't necessary, though it does help.

[Frozenstep]

If you're really worried about it, there's always berserker. Everyone is scared off by exhaustion, but mindless rage is an amazing feature.

[GlenSmash!]

If you're really worried about it, there's always berserker. Everyone is scared off by exhaustion, but mindless rage is an amazing feature.

It's awesome for Charms and fears, less so for Stuns.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Not going to lie, I take Resililent (Wisdom) on practically every character that's not already proficient. 13 starting Wis and the feat won't make you immune to Wisdom Saves but it will give you a solid resistance. If you don't make your first save, you'll probably break out of one of the subsequent round saves most such effects offer pretty fast.

[Anymage]

It's awesome for Charms and fears, less so for Stuns.

Stuns are inconvenient, but since you're just standing there slack jawed you aren't doing anything actively detrimental to the rest of the party. The big nasty part of charmlike effects is having the pc attack his friends.

[Lord Haart]

You can always pick a race that gets advantage on saving throws vs. spells. ;) That should cover most Will-affecting effects.

[HiveStriker]

I like the idea of playing a Barbarian and it's similar to the Fighter I play in my other campaign, but I can't justify playing one because of their abysmal Wis saves. I can deal damage, tank damage, but the moment I'm forced to make a Wis save, I can potentially TPK my party. Assuming any sourcebook (but not adventure as it is a homebrew campaign), is there any way to counter it?

I was thinking of starting with 16-12-16-8-13-8 (tel:16-12-16-8-13-8) (Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha) and taking +2 Dex and Resilient: Wis, but will that be enough? We do not have a Paladin in our party to help with Aura of Protection.
Play a Monk. XD

Otherwise, personally I think it's enough.
Yeah, you're very dangerous to creatures, so you'd be dangerous to your friends.

BUT, let's recall that ultimately "you're still just a Barbarian".
- Unless you pick archetypes and features dedicated to speed, you are hilariously incapable to properly use your Rage on melee attacks if creatures simply evade you, because you only have 40 feet usually.
- Until a very high level, you still need to succeed to make an attack or be hurt over a round to maintain Rage. First one is doable because you'll probably have javelins or similar, but those have short range (even their "extended" one is 60 feet/120 feet at best). Party can simply Dash away, or Blind you, or Disable you (since you have low WIS / INT / CHA saves, a Hold Person/Phantasmal Force or even plain Command will work wonders).
- Party could also focus fire on caster if it's a concentration spell, or use Dispel Magic. Cleric has spells that can remove charm effect. Possibly Paladin too (don't remember).

In other words, I'd strongly recommend the following: *don't bar yourself from playing a character just because he happens to have weaknesses*. First because, well, basically play nothing, every class has weaknesses at least at low level. Second because, this is a party game: all PCs are each supposed to have strong points and weak points, that's what makes at least half the fun. :)

[Expected]

Play a Monk. XD

Otherwise, personally I think it's enough.
Yeah, you're very dangerous to creatures, so you'd be dangerous to your friends.

BUT, let's recall that ultimately "you're still just a Barbarian".
- Unless you pick archetypes and features dedicated to speed, you are hilariously incapable to properly use your Rage on melee attacks if creatures simply evade you, because you only have 40 feet usually.
- Until a very high level, you still need to succeed to make an attack or be hurt over a round to maintain Rage. First one is doable because you'll probably have javelins or similar, but those have short range (even their "extended" one is 60 feet/120 feet at best). Party can simply Dash away, or Blind you, or Disable you (since you have low WIS / INT / CHA saves, a Hold Person/Phantasmal Force or even plain Command will work wonders).
- Party could also focus fire on caster if it's a concentration spell, or use Dispel Magic. Cleric has spells that can remove charm effect. Possibly Paladin too (don't remember).

In other words, I'd strongly recommend the following: *don't bar yourself from playing a character just because he happens to have weaknesses*. First because, well, basically play nothing, every class has weaknesses at least at low level. Second because, this is a party game: all PCs are each supposed to have strong points and weak points, that's what makes at least half the fun. :)

I laughed really hard at the play a Monk comment LOL. You've helped me with all three potential builds so far--Thank you for that, by the way.

That's a good way to look at it. I can definitely consider playing one now and not focusing too much on its weaknesses. I love playing martial classes and I would have a Wizard that could Haste me, if I ask nicely.

About archetypes, which one should I choose? Until recently, I liked Totem Warrior but I don't like any of the features besides Bear resistance to all damage except Psychic whilst raging.

[GlenSmash!]

Stuns are inconvenient, but since you're just standing there slack jawed you aren't doing anything actively detrimental to the rest of the party. The big nasty part of charmlike effects is having the pc attack his friends.

Not as bad, but it's a hell of a Rage ender. Having to Rage twice in the same combat is brutal to a Barbarian. Especially as a Berserker already in a Frenzy.

[Chugger]

Last week my friend who plays a hard-hitting meleer at t3 w/ no resil Wis (he's known for killing other characters, cuz DMs like to dominate him or charm him and make him attack party) - failed a saving throw. He was charmed and was going to come after one of us.

I asked the DM "did I hear all that? I know what the caster back there did, right?" The DM said yes. I said, "I cast dispel magic on my friend." DM said what level? I said, "Well... shoot, I better not fool around. Let's do level 5." Poof. Charm ended. No chars died.

Don't fret so much over this. If your friends have dispel magic and are paying attention, they can uncharm you - or un-hold you. It hurt to burn one of my 2 lvl 5 slots, but it was great to break the "curse" for my friend. He'd been charmed weekly 2-3 weeks in a row - why no one dispelled him in those, I don't know - I wasn't at those adventure. /shrug

[Yunru]

He'd been charmed weekly 2-3 weeks in a row - why no one dispelled him in those, I don't know - I wasn't at those adventure. /shrug

Probably because it never came to mind. Dispel Magic feels more for static out-of-combat things, causing people to overlook such usages.

[Grognerd]

If you're really worried about it, there's always berserker. Everyone is scared off by exhaustion, but mindless rage is an amazing feature.

Agreed. And it doesn't really make sense that people are worried about Exhaustion. RAW, you don't necessarily have to Frenzy, so you can always just do a "normal" Rage and not worry about the Exhaustion.

[CheddarChampion]

RAW, you don't necessarily have to Frenzy, so you can always just do a "normal" Rage and not worry about the Exhaustion.

You are correct but if you don't use your subclass features why take the subclass?
From levels 3-5 Berserker will do nothing for you unless you frenzy.
Starting at higher levels it is more viable.

[SodaQueen]

Why not just take Resilient: Wisdom? Use your stats to have an odd number in Wisdom so you can allocate points elsewhere and get the higher bonus when you grab the feat (or start with it as Vhuman)

[JellyPooga]

BUT, let's recall that ultimately "you're still just a Barbarian".
- Unless you pick archetypes and features dedicated to speed, you are hilariously incapable to properly use your Rage on melee attacks if creatures simply evade you, because you only have 40 feet usually.

Uh...just thought I'd point out that you probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss those archetypes and other features that will easily turn you into an ICBM. Everyone rages on (:smallcool:) about Bear Totem being so totally amazing, despite being a largely minor buff, when Eagle Totem turns that 40ft into 80ft for the price of a Bonus Action as well as giving a defensive bonus against OAs, or Elk Totem just flat gives you 55ft speed while raging (both assuming a base speed of 30ft, of course). If you're looking at the Barbarian as someone that needs to be in the right place at the right time, then these are both Totems that are going to be exceedingly valuable. That's not even considering the possibilities of Mobile, spell buffs and/or multiclassing.

That said, 40ft base is still better than most, giving the Barbarian, moreso than many others, a better chance of keeping up with a fleeing foe. Even if you have to use your Action to keep pace with your foe, they're still going to have to choose between disengaging, which then opens the opportunity to use your Action to attack, or Dashing away, which will provoke an OA from you.

I'm not sure what sort of foes you typically face, but if 40ft is "hilariously" slow, then you're playing a very different style of game to me.

[HiveStriker]

Uh...just thought I'd point out that you probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss those archetypes and other features that will easily turn you into an ICBM.
Uh... Just thought I'd point out I DID NOT at all dismiss those features.
I said that "without those features, Barbarian's movement is very easily manageable as a foe" (which also goes for enemies in usual situations by the way xd). I completely agree that some Totem Barbarians can be crazy good. You won't convince me here, I'm the one that usually remember to people how they can get frustrated playing Barbarian if they don't act smart a minimum because it's deceptively more thoughtful to play than you could think at first glance. :)


Thank you for that, by the way.

About archetypes, which one should I choose? Until recently, I liked Totem Warrior but I don't like any of the features besides Bear resistance to all damage except Psychic whilst raging.
My pleasure!

For archetypes, I like the Totem Bear/Elk/Bear for a tank, but since Bear isn't to your taste, I'd suggest, bouncing upon JellyPooga's comment, a Barbarian heavy on speed: full Elk for example is heavily underrated: together with Mobile, it means you sport a speed as good as a high level Monk, except at level 8 possibly: 30+10+15+10 = 65 feet.
And the Elk "pass through space" is better than Wolf in versatility, although Wolf has the extreme merit of being always successful: not only does it inflict extra damage AND prone, it also gives you a great way to bypass creatures, sparing much movement in the process (and possibly opening shenanigans such as using enemy creature to get great cover from enemy caster).

For a Barbarian that mixes up fight and utility, Eagle's extra sight is marvelous on a guy with Observant and Keen Mind, so I'd may go Tiger (climbing shenanigans) or Eagle / Eagle / Tiger (means you can freely use Shove on first attack and still get your two regular attacks. Moving 20 feet is not that big a deal, especially with Eagle imposing disadvantage on OA).

If you'd rather use grappling shenanigans, Elk / Bear / Eagle is the way to go: you can Rage *very* reliably, and you can get a great flying speed of 65 feet. On open grounds, you can easily grapple, lift and drop prone. If you have *anyone* in party that can Enlarge you, even Huge creatures will be fair game.
On "semi-closed" grounds, you could simply fly above some Stinking Cloud (Sorcerer/Wizard) / Spike Growth (Druid/ranger) while carrying an enemy underneath, and possibly drop them.

If you'd fancy being a roguish Barbarian, Elk (permanent extra speed) / Bear (carry lots of loot) / Eagle (fly away fast) would be great. Of course, problem of that is that usually raging and stealthing are incompatible because of the requirements to maintain rage (barring shenanigans that are RAW but a DM may legitimately frown upon). Once those requirements are lifted though? No problem.

Finally if you wanna get the feeling of a Monk, except with extra tankiness and brute, obvious is Bear / whatever / Eagle, paired with Mobile. :)

Otherwise, I kinda like the Storm Herald: features seem underwhelming but they do make a big difference in value over a day, and they scale deceptively nicely. :)

[CheddarChampion]

I said that "without those features, Barbarian's movement is very easily manageable as a foe" (which also goes for enemies in usual situations by the way xd).

I don't know what kind of experience you've had with barbarians if enemies can always evade a raging barbarian.

#1 Why, exactly, can't a character with better foot speed catch up to an opponent?
#2 Why would a barbarian rage unless they're going into melee?
#3 Why would a barbarian have any more trouble getting into melee range than a fighter/paladin?
#4 If there's a melee opponent, aren't they useless if they're running away?
#5 If there's a ranged opponent, won't their use of spells/attacks remove their ability to dash (except for Cunning Action/Misty Step), meaning the barbarian can catch up, even if only eventually?
#6 If all the enemies are focused on making sure the barbarian doesn't get to do anything, won't the other PC's have less opposition/be more effective since they can focus on offense?
If you're playing under or as a DM that does whatever they can with special effects/spells to stop melee PC's from doing anything there's a different problem that extra speed won't solve.

Or are you saying melee = bad because you can get kited/movement set to 0?

[da newt]

I think every barb would benefit from 2 lvls of Rogue for cunning actions. The dash bonus is especially handy, but disengage and hide can be very useful too, and expertise is awesome for grapple/shove.

[GlenSmash!]

I think every barb would benefit from 2 lvls of Rogue for cunning actions. The dash bonus is especially handy, but disengage and hide can be very useful too, and expertise is awesome for grapple/shove.

Those are great on a Barb, but what does that have to do with Wisdom saves?

Also the same could be said for 2 levels of Fighter for Fighting Style and Action Surge (Which really lets you get the most out of a round when you are Recklessly Attacking)

[micahaphone]

Zealot barbs at 6th level get a free reroll on a failed ability check if you're raging. I also personally love the zealot's theme

[HappyDaze]

Every class has weak spots. Spending too much effort trying to shore them up often means too little is done to make your strengths shine. Given equal costs, more fun is often had by raising the ceiling of your performance than by raising the floor, especially in a group/team game.

[JellyPooga]

Every class has weak spots. Spending too much effort trying to shore them up often means too little is done to make your strengths shine. Given equal costs, more fun is often had by raising the ceiling of your performance than by raising the floor, especially in a group/team game.

Whilst this may be true in many games, I've found that in my experience, the tougher the game, the more important it is not to be so reliant on your companions to shore up your failings. Yes, raising your personal ceiling at the cost of the floor will in theory make the group more effective, but in play it often leads to the weaknesses of the individuals being exploited and resulting in the group as a whole failing. A high effective ceiling is great so long as you have the ability to use it. In an "easy" game, you'll rarely lose the ability to contribute. Not so much in a more difficult or Combat as War style game.

Of course, this is my experience only.

[Arkhios]

Why would a Barbarian be any more of a liability to the party for a failed Wisdom saving throw than a Fighter that you imply to praise to high heavens? Neither class is proficient with said Saving Throw?

Besides, I'd say that a Rogue, even without feats, is far more dangerous in terms of a potential TPK. Or a sorcerer. Neither is proficient with the save, and can deal ridiculous amounts of damage and avoid it themselves. Not to mention that Sorcerers have access to various debilitating non-damaging spells. Plus, even though rogue eventually gains Wisdom Saving Throw proficiency, they must wait for 15th Rogue Level for that.

If Feats come to play, nothing prevents any of these classes to take Resilient (Wisdom), if you're so afraid of those saves.

[GlenSmash!]

Raising the ceiling on Barbarians is remarkably easy. 2 ASIs in strength and a feat will do it. 2 feats if you want a cool combo.

My current Barb is Variant Human for Resilient Wisdom at level 1 and picked up GWM at 4. 2 more ASIs to max Strength and I have a murder machine that is much more likely to not have his Rages ended by stuns or other incapacitations, or being dominated and have his murderousness turned on the party.

I suppose I could have just grabbed the lucky Feat

[CheddarChampion]

Why would a Barbarian be any more of a liability to the party for a failed Wisdom saving throw than a Fighter that you imply to praise to high heavens? Neither class is proficient with said Saving Throw?

TBF a single classed fighter has more point-buy points to spare for Wis (as they need Str or Dex, not Str and some Dex), gets indomitable for rerolls, and can spare more feats/ASI's than a barbarian can.