An act of kindness toward an evil being who don't deserve it, is an evil act?

[Conradine]

Let's say there's an evil necromancer who did unthinkable act of evil for generations, including hunting down and devouring the souls and lifeforce of his own descendants in order to prolong his life. He pillaged countless planes and performed heinous experiments on innocent being. He deserves no mercy or kindness and he understand it clearly.

Yet when defeated he asks for a small grace: to see the sunlight one last time.
It's an evil action to grant an utterly evil being an act of kindness?

[Deadline]

Why would you think that it is?

For my part, no, it's not an evil act.

[Conradine]

Because I looked it from the victim's viewpoint. If I was a parent who had a child kidnapped and let to die in a dark cell, I would burn with rage if the criminal was instead allowed a - kind of - serene death.

[Morty]

It's not an evil action. That doesn't mean you have to do it or should do it.

[Deadline]

Because I looked it from the victim's viewpoint. If I was a parent who had a child kidnapped and let to die in a dark cell, I would burn with rage if the criminal was instead allowed a - kind of - serene death.

That ... doesn't make it evil. The parent in that scenario may hate and despise it, but that doesn't make the action evil.

Also, depending on how motivated that parent was, they might go so far as to commit an evil act themselves.

[MisterKaws]

Kindness is never evil. Spiteful revenge, on the other hand, might very well be.

Any schedule on when the next of your "gotcha paladin" threads start? This is, what, number thirty or so?

[Helluin]

Kindness is never evil. Spiteful revenge, on the other hand, might very well be.

Any schedule on when the next of your "gotcha paladin" threads start? This is, what, number thirty or so?

This reply combined with your sig just killed me a little.

[Keltest]

Ultimately, the only relevant detail for questions like this is whether indulging them could predictably have led to the furthering of evil. In this case, i don't see how it could have, so it doesn't count as evil.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'll even add that while a moment of serenity and gratitude won't redeem the villain, not having them seethe with hatred and rage at the moment of their death may reduce amount of power his soul provides to the lower planes thus having a positive effect on the balance of Good and Evil in the multiverse.

[GrayDeath]

No, obviously. It might be unexpected, it will not be undiscussed with others who know what the necromancer did, but it is absolutely not Evil....unless seeing the Sunlight suddenly makes the Sun go supernova and you know it. ^^

Honestly, is this another of your "But in my weird black and white moral view it is" Threads, or are you asking an honest question?

[Eldonauran]

If there is such a thing as objective good and evil, it does not change based on 'feelings'.

[Conradine]

Honestly, is this another of your "But in my weird black and white moral view it is" Threads, or are you asking an honest question?


After playing Baldur's Gate quest about Valygar Corthala and his lich ancestor I found myself thinking " Should I let him die peacefully or not?".

- That said, if I had a paladin in that situation I would rule he falls either way, for lacking compassion or for showing unjust compassion. -

[tyckspoon]

I'll even add that while a moment of serenity and gratitude won't redeem the villain, not having them seethe with hatred and rage at the moment of their death may reduce amount of power his soul provides to the lower planes thus having a positive effect on the balance of Good and Evil in the multiverse.

It would actually make them a lot less likely to come back as some kind of spontaneously created undead, too - like 3/4 of undead monsters have 'died while consumed with a negative emotion' as part of their reason for existing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MisterKaws
Any schedule on when the next of your "gotcha paladin" threads start? This is, what, number thirty or so?


Originally Posted by Conradine
...if I had a paladin in that situation I would rule he falls either way, for lacking compassion or for showing unjust compassion.

Yeah, I’m beginning to sense the OP isn’t entirely objective when it comes to paladins.

Not sure why, just call it a feeling.

.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Regardless of whether a Paladin would fall, that this question is even being asked on an RPG forum points to the absurdity of D&D's objectivist morality. It literally is always Good or Evil, and usually doing bad things to Evil is Good by default, and vice versa.

[Chaos Jackal]

Kindness isn't an evil act.

[Faily]

After playing Baldur's Gate quest about Valygar Corthala and his lich ancestor I found myself thinking " Should I let him die peacefully or not?".

- That said, if I had a paladin in that situation I would rule he falls either way, for lacking compassion or for showing unjust compassion. -

Unjust compassion?

:confused:

Please do explain to me what unjust compassion is?


I mean, I can get that some characters might be called insufferably naive and hopeful that "there is good in everyone" and that "everyone deserves to be treated with kindness", even to the point of almost stupidity sometimes, but honestly... unjust compassion?


Whatever will people think of next? "Is it evil to give to charity and do volunteer work for the community?"

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon
It would actually make them a lot less likely to come back as some kind of spontaneously created undead, too - like 3/4 of undead monsters have 'died while consumed with a negative emotion' as part of their reason for existing.

This is a solid case for delivering a double dose of valerian tea before the villain meets his well-deserved fate.

:smalltongue:

[EisenKreutzer]

After playing Baldur's Gate quest about Valygar Corthala and his lich ancestor I found myself thinking " Should I let him die peacefully or not?".

- That said, if I had a paladin in that situation I would rule he falls either way, for lacking compassion or for showing unjust compassion. -

Unjust compassion? Compassion, alone, is always inherently good.
If the act of compassion directly leads to an act of evil, and the compassionate individual is fully aware of this and acts compassionately anyway, it might be an act of evil.
Sparing your sadistic sisters life, knowing full well that she will go on to do evil and that letting her die would save lives could be an act of evil for example. Or atleast a neutral act, done out of self-interest or the disregard of anything beyond your own emotions.

An act of compassion on its own, free of evil consequence foreseen or otherwise, that leads to nothing except positive emotions in the recipient and affects nobody else, can never be evil.

So no, letting the evil necromancer see the sunset one final time before they die is not evil.

[Vaern]

An act of kindness or mercy towards an evil creature is not an evil action, unless that act of kindness involves knowingly assisting him in performing an evil action or that act of mercy involves turning a blind eye to his evildoings.

[pabelfly]

What is it with your obsession with having a Paladin fall, OP? If I want to play a character that wants to defeat evil and uphold Good and Law, why not just let me?

[Kelb_Panthera]

What? No! Why would you even think that?

Compassion is one of major pillars of a good alignment. The soul-sucking bastard migt not deserve it but that's completely irrelevant. His execution is a matter of law, not good and evil.

Showing that small kindness doesn't aid Evil (note the caps) in any way. It erodes it by showing the condemned villain that Good is not weak or easily cowed.

As for whether you -should- allow it as the presiding paladin, almost certainly not. You never give a powerful spellcaster an inch lest they use their ability to bend reality to make it a few miles.

You shouldn't fall in either case. Failing to commit a good act is not an evil one. Choosing not to show a moment's compassion when it could turn into a whole extra "recover the escaped prisoner" adventure isn't evil. It's pragmatic.

Note to self: never play a paladin under Conradine.

[EisenKreutzer]

The Book of Exalted Deeds talks about this actually.

[Conradine]

Please do explain to me what unjust compassion is?

The victim's viewpoint.

" Why this bastard should enjoy a serene death while my innocent child died alone and afraid in the darkness of a cell?!?"

[EisenKreutzer]

The victim's viewpoint.

" Why this bastard should enjoy a serene death while my innocent child died alone and afraid in the darkness of a cell?!?"

Thats the victims subjective view point. What bearing does it have on the universal moral constants of the alignments?
Good and Evil are not subjective, they are objective cosmic forces.

[Rynjin]

The victim's viewpoint.

" Why this bastard should enjoy a serene death while my innocent child died alone and afraid in the darkness of a cell?!?"

The fact of the matter is the victim doesn't factor into this scenario. Just because you are victimized does not mean the world revolves around you.

[False God]

The victim's viewpoint.

" Why this bastard should enjoy a serene death while my innocent child died alone and afraid in the darkness of a cell?!?"

Victims (and the families thereof) often have a biased point of view, which is why we developed our modern IRL criminal justice system, because sometimes a wronged individual would demand ridiculous punishments for minor offenses, or demand no punishment at all when a punishment would have been needed.

There's a reason that our modern system of justice is considered fairer and more just than olden ones. This is party why.

Victims will often do evil themselves because they feel it is "justified" because of the evil done to them. That doesn't make them good just because evil was done to them first.

Evil is still evil. Good is still good. Being kind to others, even the irredeemably evil is still goodness.

Recommended viewing (a conversation between an irredeemably evil person and a terribly flawed one): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOaVJufPqUU

But of course, this thread is a trap and I sometimes actually wonder if people play D&D with you as DM.

[tyckspoon]

The victim's viewpoint.

" Why this bastard should enjoy a serene death while my innocent child died alone and afraid in the darkness of a cell?!?"

The victim was that child. They died. Ending the Evil Necromancer's schemes and bringing him to his death is justice for that victim. The grieving parent wanting the Evil Necromancer to suffer for it? That's not justice. That's vengeance. Justice permits compassion. Vengeance does not. Vengeance is, generally speaking, not a Good motivation.

[Faily]

Right.

This is a troll-poster, right?

[Conradine]

But of course, this thread is a trap and I sometimes actually wonder if people play D&D with you as DM.

I have been a Dungeon Master for 3 different groups in 4 different campaigns. All went fairly well, we had fun.
Although no one ever tried to play a paladin under me.


This is a troll-poster, right?

I never troll.
I like involved discussions and conversations.




The victim was that child.

I think we can agree that victim's loving relatives are victims too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The victim's viewpoint.

" Why this bastard should enjoy a serene death while my innocent child died alone and afraid in the darkness of a cell?!?"

Not a valid argument under a universal, objective alignment system like the game uses. You can bring back the victims who haven't had their souls destroyed and their opinions wouldn't matter either. Even if you have a death god intervene and restore even the ones whose souls were destroyed, even their opinions are irrelevant.

Their desire for vengeance (mostly justified here, granted) is not the same as a desire for or guideline to reach justice. Cosmic good marks compassion as its own, regardless of surrounding circumstances. Simple as that.

[False God]

I have been a Dungeon Master for 3 different groups in 4 different campaigns. All went fairly well, we had fun.
Although no one ever tried to play a paladin under me.
I can't imagine why.

Also good job on dodging any of my pertinent commentary.

[flat_footed]

The Fullmetal Mod: Locked for review.