View Full Version : Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Hi, title says it all, this is something I thought up randomly, if it contradicts something or sounds stupid, feel free to say so!
So. A lot of people have cited Fyron's Son as Oots' only plothole or contradiction, being that Fyron's Son does not appear when we see Xykon murder him, yet is referred to by Roy when he accuses Xykon of his crimes, and I thiiiiiink when Eugene talks about Xykon to Roy in On the Origin of PCs or Start of Darkness? Both of those copies are at my house and I'm currently studying out-of-state in a dorm in college, so I can't really check.
I think there was one user who was really adamant about this being a contradiction. I think it was either Sunken Valley or David Argall, could be wrong and my apologies to those users if not.
However, I remember recently, about the ten million dwarf souls, how Rich gave a little speech about "Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?"
And then Durkon's spiel about how Sigdi told him to bury his feelings for Dwarven honor seemed to contradict her character in the flashbacks... until we got to that amazing scene with Vampire Durkon, and a supposed 'contradiction' became an epic conclusion to an arc.
So what if I tried to make an assumption that fits with the text, that creates a legitimate emotional pay off for Fyron's Son?
Here's my take. Fyron never had a son. Eugene is his son. Not biologically, obviously, because Eugene Greenhilt is the son of Horace Greenhilt, but the two were distant. And if we look at the way Eugene lovingly describes his master, it's pretty clear that Fyron was more of a father to him than anyone else.
Xykon didn't literally kill Eugene Greenhilt, he did so emotionally. Killing Fyron by hitting him over and over with a trophy, like a brute force fighter like Horace Greenhilt, broke Eugene's will by taking away his father, rolemodel, and mentor in a manner so humiliating for a wizard that it left Eugene purposeless and angry.
In fact, Sarah Greenhilt describes Eugene's fatal flaw as his inability to see anything through. But we don't actually have any evidence of that flaw existing before Fyron's death. Before Fyron died, Eugene was seemingly very happy to pursue magical research together for the rest of his life, not showing any sign of getting bored of it. This fatal flaw might be a manifestation of Eugene's spirit having been broken. Nothing else feels as purposeful as what he lost, so he effectively drifted from goal to goal as a bitter and broken man.
There's a lot of signs that Eugene knows his own flaws and might secretly be ashamed of them. I remember the scene with Right Eye in Start of Darkness, where he turns down a chance of vengeance to try to be a better father, only to fail horribly. In other words, he may have died of old age, but that would be the cause of death, not the mechanism. He considers himself Fyron's Son and Xykon's victim.
I don't think Roy would know this. Eugene likely told him "Xykon murdered Master Fyron and his son" without explaining that he identified as his son. And I think there'll be a payoff of this line in book 7. Rich will probably have Eugene reveal the truth about the matter after Xykon dies, apologize for all his faults, and explain to Roy who Fyron's Son truely was. It'll be a heartbreaking speech and then he'll move on to the Lawful Good afterlife in the end.
This might not happen. For all we know, there may never be a payoff or a revisit to this line. But I tried to make an assumption that fits with the text and would have a narrative value to Eugene's character. I feel like everyone of Rich's characters is thought out from the beginning, and every line or hint they have safely expected to have a pay off (see ALL the Malack/Miko foreshadowings) and I'm sure whatever conclusion he gives Eugene, I'll be satisfied. But if I'm right about this, dear lord am I going to make hundreds more theories :smalltongue:
woweedd
2019-10-28, 02:14 PM
Well, you successfully got me to feel sorry for Eugene. So, nice. Seriously, though. I've always been attached to the idea that there's more redeemable qualities in Eugene. He was LG once, and Sara must have seen SOMETHING in him. Or maybe that's just my affection for playing Wizards talking. Either way, not sure how plausible this theory is, but I like the idea that Eugene was, at some point, a better guy then he is now. That's why I like the idea of his relationship with Horace being similar to Roy's relationship with him, even if I admit the text seems to lean towards blaming Eugene.
The MunchKING
2019-10-28, 02:36 PM
It is certainly an intriguing idea... We will see if it is accurate.
Riftwolf
2019-10-28, 02:56 PM
Fyron's Son/Redcloak's Niece= ship potential 100%?
Schroeswald
2019-10-28, 03:09 PM
Fyron's Son/Redcloak's Niece= ship potential 100%?
Of course not! That’s ridiculous, they’re the same person after all.
MossyMeow
2019-10-28, 04:26 PM
Of course not! That’s ridiculous, they’re the same person after all.
You see, what I told you was true...from a certain point of view.
Jaxzan Proditor
2019-10-29, 08:12 AM
Despite the “crackpot theory” in the title, I think this is actually a pretty interesting idea.
That said, I do also support this theory...
Fyron's Son/Redcloak's Niece= ship potential 100%?
Riftwolf
2019-10-29, 09:42 AM
Of course not! That’s ridiculous, they’re the same person after all.
You're saying that self-shipping isn't a thing?
I think the Divinyls wrote a song about it.
D.One
2019-10-29, 12:17 PM
Why would such theory crack any pot?
Darth Paul
2019-10-29, 01:12 PM
You see, what I told you was true...from a certain point of view.
Proving my own crackpot theory that all forum threads will contain a Star Wars quote within the first 10 posts.
MossyMeow
2019-10-29, 01:21 PM
Proving my own crackpot theory that all forum threads will contain a Star Wars quote within the first 10 posts.
That’s less a crackpot theory than an objective fact. Someone ought to keep a running total.
Schroeswald
2019-10-29, 01:28 PM
That’s less a crackpot theory than an objective fact. Someone ought to keep a running total.
If that suggests a thread, it would require a new iteration every month.
The Aboleth
2019-10-29, 01:42 PM
Actual literary analysis on the OOTS Forums? What kind of dark wizardry is this!
But seriously, I like the theory. I didn't think I would, but by the end of the OP I did. Still think Fyron's son is one of those things that will forever go unanswered, but this "crackpot" theory does a pretty good job of addressing the matter.
EDIT: I really liked this part in particular (emphasis mine):
Xykon didn't literally kill Eugene Greenhilt, he did so emotionally. Killing Fyron by hitting him over and over with a trophy, like a brute force fighter like Horace Greenhilt, broke Eugene's will by taking away his father, rolemodel, and mentor in a manner so humiliating for a wizard that it left Eugene purposeless and angry.
Really adds a new dimension to Eugene's disapproval of Fighters.
Well done!
Tfw you make a thread with a lengthy theory that took a bit of time to write up and all the comments are shipping Fyron's Son and Redcloaks daughter.
Come on guys, I was looking for more feedback! Ah well, my fault for calling it a crackpot theory to save face when nervous. Now everyone took the crack.
Seriously though, while I tried to make a theory that could account for the Fyron's Son "contradiction", I couldn't really think of any narratively satisfying way for Redcloak's neice to show up. The Giant has mentioned wanting to make sure that Start of Darkness isn't *necessary* for the main plot: that's why he had two reveals for Redcloak's plan, with Tsukiko's death and Start of Darkness, and Durkon's prophecy, with Hurak and Firuk. It feels like at this point, to a casual reader "And suddenly Redcloak had a neice that wasn't mentioned until now!" isn't going to fly.
Actual literary analysis on the OOTS Forums? What kind of dark wizardry is this!
But seriously, I like the theory. I didn't think I would, but by the end of the OP I did. Still think Fyron's son is one of those things that will forever go unanswered, but this "crackpot" theory does a pretty good job of addressing the matter.
EDIT: I really liked this part in particular (emphasis mine):
Really adds a new dimension to Eugene's disapproval of Fighters.
Well done!
Dang! My post complaining about a lack of response to effort was preceded by a response that took effort! I think they call that ninja'd on this forum?
But anyway, I completely agree that I don't expect it to really be answered. I was just taking a self excercise in using the Giant's advice about making assumptions that fit the text. I'm glad you like it though!
And the part you mentioned about Eugene's disapproval of fighters was something I thought of while typing, so I'm glad that worked out. Sadly, I think it means I spent all my intelligence points for the week and will now fail a midterm.
The Aboleth
2019-10-29, 02:05 PM
Come on guys, I was looking for more feedback!
Ok, then:
While I find the reading of "Eugene as Fyron's metaphorical son" a compelling one, there are a couple of ways I think it runs into a big problem:
Eugene has a notoriously large ego, as has been evidenced by him bragging about being named the #1 Illusionist in some fancy magazine (think that was SOD?) and his overall disdain for any idea that doesn't involve solving things with magic. Given this, I find it unlikely Eugene would pass up an opportunity to highlight his own part in the Xykon/Fyron saga by substituting in some random, unnamed "son." Also passes up an opportunity to get in another dig at Fighters: "Xykon murdered Fyron, who was much more of a father to me than the brute that was your Grandfather."
So the mention of a son for Fyron is probably not a smokescreen to conceal Eugene's fraternal feelings for his old master. It's probably just a thread that will forever be left unpulled.
EDIT: As I said before, I like your analysis. I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate with this post.
Ok, then:
While I find the reading of "Eugene as Fyron's metaphorical son" a compelling one, there are a couple of ways I think it runs into a big problem:
Eugene has a notoriously large ego, as has been evidenced by him bragging about being named the #1 Illusionist in some fancy magazine (think that was SOD?) and his overall disdain for any idea that doesn't involve solving things with magic. Given this, I find it unlikely Eugene would pass up an opportunity to highlight his own part in the Xykon/Fyron saga by substituting in some random, unnamed "son." Also passes up an opportunity to get in another dig at Fighters: "Xykon murdered Fyron, who was much more of a father to me than the brute that was your Grandfather."
So the mention of a son for Fyron is probably not a smokescreen to conceal Eugene's fraternal feelings for his old master. It's probably just a thread that will forever be left unpulled.
EDIT: As I said before, I like your analysis. I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate with this post.
Devil's Advocacy can definetely help continue a discussion. Alright, I'm gonna go ahead and try to defend the theory and maybe make something unique. Let's see.
Assuming Eugene is metaphorically Fyron's son, there has to be a reason Eugene doesn't want to highlight his own part in the Xykon/Fyron saga, despite being an egotistical shmuck. How about shame?
He's supposed to be a powerful wizard, yet in that moment he couldn't protect the only father figure he ever had from a trophy wielding brute. The shame of that moment is part of what he believes is the death of his person, the root of his inability to commit to something, his emptiness and bitterness. Of course he wouldn't want to admit weakness to Roy.
Of course, he does tell Roy he was there and that he didn't make a difference and was an apprentice at the time. But the stone hard facts are easier to deliver than confessing to an estranged son that the reason you are garbage as a person is because of this event. In other words, Eugene is too prideful to admit to his emotional involvement and vulnerability.
denthor
2019-10-29, 03:36 PM
Eugene met Roy's mother when she was drunk at a bar. He was surprised by her invitation for adult engagement.
Her exact words were you'll do.
Riftwolf
2019-10-29, 07:45 PM
Tfw you make a thread with a lengthy theory that took a bit of time to write up and all the comments are shipping Fyron's Son and Redcloaks niece.
Hey they're both unnamed relatives of side-characters whose stories could easily have been wrapped up in SoD but weren't! If that doesn't sound like a bonding experience then I don't know what is.
Come on guys, I was looking for more feedback! Ah well, my fault for calling it a crackpot theory to save face when nervous. Now everyone took the crack.
I liked your theory as a 'possible, but not probable' twist, its unlikely to happen as the story's moving away from Eugene's blood oath; the story's more complicated now, without trying to drag it back to one man's revenge.
Seriously though, while I tried to make a theory that could account for the Fyron's Son "contradiction", I couldn't really think of any narratively satisfying way for Redcloak's neice to show up. The Giant has mentioned wanting to make sure that Start of Darkness isn't *necessary* for the main plot: that's why he had two reveals for Redcloak's plan, with Tsukiko's death and Start of Darkness, and Durkon's prophecy, with Hurak and Firuk. It feels like at this point, to a casual reader "And suddenly Redcloak had a neice that wasn't mentioned until now!" isn't going to fly.
It'll be interesting to see what print-only info Rich puts into the last book. The fact Redcloak's niece isn't mentioned doesn't mean she won't appear; the same could be said of Crystal and Bozzok, until DStP.
https://i.imgur.com/26ytzJZ.jpg
Heh, I just couldn't resist pulling that out in response to "metaphorical." The idea itself is pretty well-thought-out; I tend to not think things like this are talked about in metaphor in this story (I could see Eugene flat-out lying for whatever reason, though), but I feel like I don't have enough information to offer any credible speculation on the actual explanation for the inconsistency.
Peelee
2019-10-29, 08:47 PM
Proving my own crackpot theory that all forum threads will contain a Star Wars quote within the first 10 posts.
Is that... legal?
Fyraltari
2019-10-30, 03:12 AM
Is that... legal?
You’re a mod, you will make it legal !
Peelee
2019-10-30, 07:54 AM
You’re a mod, you will make it legal !
Are you saying I am the Senate?
Fyraltari
2019-10-30, 08:27 AM
Are you saying I am the Senate?
Wouldn't that be treason?
Peelee
2019-10-30, 08:29 AM
Wouldn't that be treason?
Not sure, and I may not be able to co tinue the conversation. The restaurant just called order 65 ready, mines next.
Fyraltari
2019-10-30, 08:30 AM
Not sure, and I may not be able to co tinue the conversation. The restaurant just called order 65 ready, mines next.
... Take a seat, then.
The MunchKING
2019-10-30, 08:40 AM
You’re a mod, you will make it legal !
I AM THE LAWL!!! or however you textually represent that accent.
Jasdoif
2019-11-01, 01:38 PM
Are you saying I am the Senate?Not yet.
D.One
2019-11-01, 01:51 PM
Not sure, and I may not be able to co tinue the conversation. The restaurant just called order 65 ready, mines next.
If you go that route, you might end up in some peaceful place... :smallwink:
MossyMeow
2019-11-01, 03:29 PM
Not sure, and I may not be able to co tinue the conversation. The restaurant just called order 65 ready, mines next.
That actually reminds me of a story I heard about how the cast of The Clone Wars was ordering food from In-N-Out just after the show was canceled. Their order number? 66.
Jasdoif
2019-11-01, 03:39 PM
That actually reminds me of a story I heard about how the cast of The Clone Wars was ordering food from In-N-Out just after the show was canceled. Their order number? 66....I just realized that six was a really bad number for Fives.
Gets killed off in Season 6, to prevent widespread dissemination of his discovery of Order 66....And the unaired season six episodes are still canonical so even ending the series didn't save him!
And after all that, he still didn't even get his burger?
MossyMeow
2019-11-01, 04:27 PM
...I just realized that six was a really bad number for Fives.
Gets killed off in Season 6, to prevent widespread dissemination of his discovery of Order 66....And the unaired season six episodes are still canonical so even ending the series didn't save him!
And after all that, he still didn't even get his burger?
#Justice with a side of fries
Riftwolf
2019-11-01, 09:40 PM
I've no idea what anyone's talking about anymore, but if I got stick for a shipping joke, there should be some sticks passed round for impenetrable Star Wars jokes too!
MossyMeow
2019-11-02, 01:14 PM
I've no idea what anyone's talking about anymore, but if I got stick for a shipping joke, there should be some sticks passed round for impenetrable Star Wars jokes too!
So...how about them sports teams?
The MunchKING
2019-11-02, 01:17 PM
So...how about them sports teams?
Besaid Aurochs are going to win the championship!!
THEN the season will officially start!! :smalltongue:
I've no idea what anyone's talking about anymore, but if I got stick for a shipping joke, there should be some sticks passed round for impenetrable Star Wars jokes too!
I tried mixing things up with a Simpsons joke, but apparently even those don't find an audience here.
Jasdoif
2019-11-02, 05:25 PM
I've no idea what anyone's talking about anymore, but if I got stick for a shipping joke, there should be some sticks passed round for impenetrable Star Wars jokes too!I guess that's fair, this time....
* hands MossyMeow a mahogany dowel rod with a subtle, yet functioning, cortosis weave *
catagent101
2019-11-03, 06:06 PM
Yeah, this theory ain't crackpot at all. It ties together so many things so nicely. Here's hoping another case of great minds think alike happens here.
Cheers - Cat
snowblizz
2019-11-05, 04:51 AM
Assuming Eugene is metaphorically Fyron's son, there has to be a reason Eugene doesn't want to highlight his own part in the Xykon/Fyron saga, despite being an egotistical shmuck. How about shame?
He's supposed to be a powerful wizard, yet in that moment he couldn't protect the only father figure he ever had from a trophy wielding brute. The shame of that moment is part of what he believes is the death of his person, the root of his inability to commit to something, his emptiness and bitterness. Of course he wouldn't want to admit weakness to Roy.
Of course, he does tell Roy he was there and that he didn't make a difference and was an apprentice at the time. But the stone hard facts are easier to deliver than confessing to an estranged son that the reason you are garbage as a person is because of this event. In other words, Eugene is too prideful to admit to his emotional involvement and vulnerability.
I just can't see Eugene being capable of such insight into himself. He thinks Roy's issues is because he didn't learn the rules of football. Basically Eugene isn't capable of the self-criticism required to construct an external "Fyron's Son" entity. In other words, Eugene wouldn't see this as "the death of himself as a person".
D.One
2019-11-05, 08:59 AM
Since theories can be pets, and such beings may be descendants from survivors from a previous world populated by sentient concepts, it's also possible that Fyron's late wife was a metaphor, another descendant of Conceptworld survivors, and thus their son was also a metaphor, or a half-metaphor maybe.
Jasdoif
2019-11-05, 03:02 PM
Since theories can be pets, and such beings may be descendants from survivors from a previous world populated by sentient concepts, it's also possible that Fyron's late wife was a metaphor, another descendant of Conceptworld survivors, and thus their son was also a metaphor, or a half-metaphor maybe.Fyron's son is like a simile?
D.One
2019-11-05, 03:15 PM
Fyron's son is like a simile?
It's possible, even more if he has a twin brother.
brian 333
2019-11-05, 05:48 PM
Fyron's son is like a simile?
I see what you did there, and it's analogous to humor!
D.One
2019-11-06, 08:40 AM
I see what you did there, and it's analogous to humor!
Oh, I'm sure Personification agrees.
Riftwolf
2019-11-06, 08:54 AM
Oh, I'm sure Personification agrees.
I DO NOT It's a Discworld reference, in case you're wondering
Jasdoif
2019-11-06, 11:58 AM
I DO NOTAlways with the hyperbole....
D.One
2019-11-06, 12:14 PM
Always with the hyperbole....
The Euphemic Council thinks that's not so serious to deserve attention.
Riftwolf
2019-11-07, 07:44 AM
Always with the hyperbole....
Hyperboles annoy me. I mean how many superboles has the US had now, and they've yet to hold a single hyperbole, ever, in the entire history of their country, and never ever will?
D.One
2019-11-07, 07:59 AM
Should CRASH!, POW! and WOOF! say what they think about this OUCH!?
Jasdoif
2019-11-07, 12:04 PM
Should CRASH!, POW! and WOOF! say what they think about this OUCH!?The bit in one of the calendars where Roy tells Elan he can't make puns based on words no one knows how to pronounce would apply to "onomatopoeia" as much as it does to "sahuagin". ZOWIE!
MossyMeow
2019-11-08, 04:30 PM
The bit in one of the calendars where Roy tells Elan he can't make puns based on words no one knows how to pronounce would apply to "onomatopoeia" as much as it does to "sahuagin". ZOWIE!
How do you pronounce onomatopoeia? I always pronounced it Ah-NO-ma-NO-P-ah, but looking at it, that’s not how it should be pronounced.
Sometimes, I really hate English.
Riftwolf
2019-11-08, 05:15 PM
How do you pronounce onomatopoeia? I always pronounced it Ah-NO-ma-NO-P-ah, but looking at it, that’s not how it should be pronounced.
Sometimes, I really hate English.
On a matter payer.
MossyMeow
2019-11-08, 05:27 PM
On a matter payer.
...I feel betrayed.
Jasdoif
2019-11-08, 05:59 PM
How do you pronounce onomatopoeia? I always pronounced it Ah-NO-ma-NO-P-ah, but looking at it, that’s not how it should be pronounced.If your "NO" sounds like "nah" (as in, rhymes with "Ah"), I think you've got the midwestern US pronunciation (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onomatopoeia#Pronunciation) right. (I pronounce it with a "t" instead of an "n" in the middle.)
D.One
2019-11-12, 01:20 PM
How do you pronounce onomatopoeia? I always pronounced it Ah-NO-ma-NO-P-ah, but looking at it, that’s not how it should be pronounced.
Sometimes, I really hate English.
OH NO MAH TOH PEH YAH
But that's portuguese pronounciation.
These six syllables are also survivors from a previous world :-P
snowblizz
2019-11-13, 07:59 AM
How do you pronounce onomatopoeia?
Incorrectly.
(I'm joking but can't really think of a funny way to indicate it right now)
Riftwolf
2019-11-13, 04:30 PM
...I feel betrayed.
Yeh I get that a lot.
Precure
2019-12-11, 02:12 AM
I think it's more likely that he killed him himself, because of his jealousy toward the only person who can claim to be Fyron's one and true son, and then framed Xykon for it.
I think it's more likely that he killed him himself, because of his jealousy toward the only person who can claim to be Fyron's one and true son, and then framed Xykon for it.
There is zero way he would've been slated for a lawful good after life if he did this.
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