Armorless warrior - Kensei? (and mini rant)

[Greywander]

I was inspired with a character concept that would probably fit more thematically as a bard or rogue, but I thought I'd try to build it as an unarmored warrior. Monk and barbarian and the immediate obvious choices, but there are also a few other options. I'm pretty sold on human (often the source of inspiration, whether it's a TV show or just a random pic on the 'net, is a human, ergo the inspired concept tends to also skew human), but a race with an AC bonus would also be a way to do this. Warforged would probably be optimal, but lizardfolk or tortle would probably also work. If I go human, then the next option would be to dip into monk, barbarian, or even Draconic sorcerer. In the end, I thought I'd look at going straight Kensei monk, but without all the wushu kung fu flavor. Just a normal adventurer who happens to be good at fighting without armor.

I've looked at monk before, but I think this might be the first time I've actually sat down to build a straight class monk. Kensei is interesting, but I do have a couple of quibbles with it.

Kensei Weapons
Monk weapons in general, and kensei weapons in particular, seem to add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the game, and seem to go against the design principles of 5e. All other classes only have to worry about whether they are or are not proficient with a weapon. For Kensei, there are four possible options:

Weapons you're not proficient with.
Weapons you are proficient with, but aren't monk weapons.
Monk weapons that aren't kensei weapons.
Kensei weapons.

Furthermore, 5e generally opts to use broad strokes when handing out weapon proficiencies. Most classes are proficient with either all simple weapons, or all simple and martial weapons. There's not a lot of cherry picking of specific weapons to give to a class. If I were to redesign the monk and Kensei, here's what I would do:

Nix monk weapons. Any weapon you're proficient with acts like a "monk weapon". And yes, this can lead to some multiclass shenanigans.
Kensei gain proficiency with martial weapons at 3rd level. No need to multiclass now. There are no "kensei weapons", any weapon works.
If you're worried about GWM, as seems to have been the case with the UA Kensei, tweak the Martial Arts feature to not work with heavy melee weapons.

All that said, let's see what we can do with the rules as written.

If I roll a VHuman, I should be able to get two feats and still get both DEX and WIS to 20. I was considering Sharpshooter (because shooting people from 600 feet away while running twice as fast as they can is fun), but realized I'd always be a second rate archer compared to a fighter. And besides, a lot of my monk features want me to get within punching range, so the longbow will generally be a secondary weapon, not a primary weapon. So I think I'll go with Mobile and Defensive Duelist. The latter will push me toward finesse weapons, though I can also off-hand a finesse weapon to work with Defensive Duelist (also works for Agile Parry if it's a kensei weapon).

Longbow is an obvious pick for my 3rd level ranged weapon. For the melee weapon, I was leaning toward the longsword just because it fits the character concept. Seems longsword is a popular pick because it gives you an early d10 damage die, and because people seem to be under the mistaken impression that most magic weapons are longswords (there's a few magic longswords, but most magic weapons say "any sword", so shortsword, rapier, or scimitar would all be viable). If a generous DM allowed me to use a longsword for Defensive Duelist (Martial Arts is kinda sorta finesse), I'd probably pick it, otherwise I'd probably go with a finesse weapon like a shortsword.

I'll get to pick up three more weapons as I level, so I'm looking at my options.

Whip is an interesting choice because of the reach. It's also a finesse weapon, so that's good. I'm considering flavoring it as a "flying sword", a shortsword with a rounded tip (https://img.brickowl.com/files/image_cache/larger/lego-flat-silver-shortsword-sword-3847-30-885658-117.jpg) (think pizza cutter, but long) attached to a chain. It can be wielded by the handle in close range, or thrown and swung around by the chain, maybe like in the first God of War game. While interesting, I don't know that reach actually does a lot for me. As previously mentioned, a lot of my monk abilities want me to get within punching distance of enemies. That said, having the option of reach might be something that is occasionally useful.

Javelin is another interesting one. It's a melee weapon that can be thrown a fair distance, giving me more options. It even works with Kensei Shot, as it's a "ranged attack with a kensei weapon". Not finesse though, so maybe go for a dagger instead.

I might also want to get something with bludgeoning damage, but there are no bludgeoning finesse weapons. Unarmed strikes are also already bludgeoning damage, so maybe not necessary. There are a few magical maces, though. Aside the weapons mentioned above, there doesn't seem to be anything else that really stands out. All the other weapons, once you replace their damage die with the monk die, are more or less just refluffed versions of the above weapons. The only thing that stands out would be the sling, as a one-handed ranged weapon. Sling might be a good choice if I'm allowed to reload it without a free hand, otherwise I might as well just use the longbow.

Deft Strike
It's not as bad as my first impression of it lead me to believe. It's less damage than a flurry, but a flurry can miss, and you can do both. So I guess it's comparable. I just find it boring, and not necessarily a worthwhile use of ki. Flurry means another chance for Stunning Strike, which is a much more valuable use of ki, IMO. Not really much more to say here. I just wish I got something else, maybe something with more utility to it.

Sharpen the Blade
This feature frustrates me. It's either really good or completely useless. If you somehow don't have a magic weapon, then it's pretty good. But in a typical campaign, I'd expect you to have a weapon +1 by 11th level, which renders this feature useless. To get the most out of this feature, you'd want to use a magic weapon that doesn't give a bonus to attack and damage rolls, but that doesn't give you a lot of options. Flame Tongue and Frost Brand seem the most appealing, the Sword of Life Stealing and Sword of Wounding are interesting, but I think I'd honestly rather just have a weapon +3 and save myself some ki and an attunement slot. I feel like at this level, you should have gotten something like +1d4 damage to all weapon attacks, including unarmed.

Speaking of magic items, there's quite a few that don't require attunement. I've seen people recommending the Insignia of Claws from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, which is pretty sweet (+1 to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes, and only uncommon with no attunement, no less). I'm debating what to use my attunement slots for, although that will obviously depend on what the DM gives me.

Finally, I'm debating whether to stick with monk to 20, or to multiclass. I've seen people recommending War cleric, partly for Divine Favor, and cleric is usually a solid dip for any class. Rogue would probably also be a good dip. I posted another thread recently looking at Perfect Self (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601453-Looking-at-monk-is-Perfect-Self-actually-underrated), and if the DM allowed a homebrewed version that gave ki regeneration every round (as I suggest further down in that thread) it might make it worth it to stick with monk to 20.

[Lunali]

You said there were no bludgeoning finesse weapons but unless you're multiclassing rogue that won't really matter as your kensei weapons are also monk weapons and, as such, can use dex. My personal choices are longbow+longsword, whip, dagger,(concealable, especially with robe of useful items or bracer of flying daggers) quarterstaff (more likely to be allowed when weapons are restricted).

Deft strike isn't great in melee, but if you get stuck at range it can help to get that little bit of extra damage.

[Greywander]

Defensive Duelist requires a finesse weapon, monk weapons don't count RAW, but a DM might let them count. As I mentioned, though, I could always off-hand a finesse weapon and attack with a different weapon.

Defensive Duelist might not be the best feat choice, though, but combined with a Cloak of Displacement or Empty Body it becomes a bit stronger since fewer hits will be getting through. Tough, Lucky, Magic Initiate, or Ritual Caster might be better options, which would free me up from using finesse weapons.

[Sorinth]

Rapier is a decent option as your Kensei weapon if you want to stick with Finesse weapons. I'm a fan of Defensive Duelist for Kensei.

Even though Deft Strike does less damage then Flurry one of the benefits is that you can increase your damage while freeing up the BA for something else which gives some flexibility. So for example you can use Patient Defence which really makes Defensive Duelist shine for those occasions you can't or don't want to strike and run away, or if you had to use Step of the Wind to get in range you can still up the damage. And of course you can do it alongside Flurry to really maximize damage output. You basically always want to do it, the limiting factor is that it makes you very Ki hungry, so it pushes you into either taking lots of short rests, or only spending Ki on the big fights and not using Ki on easier fights. It also makes multi-classing less interesting as you always want more Ki, though there are specific max AC builds that will multi-class.

With respect to Sharpen the Blade, keep in mind your Kensei weapon is not a specific weapon, but the weapon type. So if you take Longsword, and find a magic Longsword +1 you should actually carry two Longswords, the magic one and a non-magic one. For fights where you want to use the +3 you draw the non-magic one and use Sharpen the Blade, for fights where you don't plan on using Sharpen the Blade you use your magic one.

[Sorinth]

Not sure if fits your theme but Warlock can also make a decent armorless warrior since they can use Armor of Shadows for at will Mage Armor and/or Fiendish Vigour for a solid HP boost.

Similiarly Bladesinger can go armorless if you want a magical armorless warrior.

[Sigreid]

There's really nothing stopping a DM from switching out monk weapons for your character. I've often thought that if I were to do a swashbuckler character I'd make a monk and have his monk weapons be dagger, short sword, scimitar and rapier. I've mentioned this to the others at my table and we all agree this would be a fine way to do it. I mean to most of us swashbuckler means fencing weapons with the occasional punch or kick thrown in and spectacular feats of acrobatic daring do. Monk was kind of made for this.

[JackPhoenix]

Defensive Duelist requires a finesse weapon, monk weapons don't count RAW, but a DM might let them count. As I mentioned, though, I could always off-hand a finesse weapon and attack with a different weapon.

Both shortsword and dagger are default monk weapons with finesse. They are not kensei weapon by default, but then, any finesse weapon you pick as your kensei weapon counts as monk weapon.

[Dork_Forge]

I don't really understand your complaint about monk and kensai weapons re proficiency, every melee weapon Monks have access to (bar the great club) is a Monk weapon, you don't need to track it separately. Kensai weapons are also, well what weapon do I like the idea of using/are mechanically best for me, then you use those weapons from 3 to character end. It's unlikely for most characters to just change out what weapon type they use completely, and if you run into magical gear later on you have more Kensai options to take them or just make your mundane weapon magical yourself.

In regards to 5e and broad stroke proficiencies, 6 out of 12 PHB classes have cherry picking (as does the UA of Artificer, the next official class).

For unarmored you don't really need to multiclass or look for a specific race unless you intend on dumping Wisdom to some extent. Unarmored is what Monks do and with a top AC of 20 from just stats, they do it well.

A Rapier is a great choice for a weapon if you intend on taking Defensive Duelist (if you take it as your V Human feat, Monks struggle enough with stats to burn an ASI on it), a long sword is great for getting a d10 early, a whip is great for reach (think more attacking a second target just out of reach of your first) and the low die is remedied by Martial Arts.

Something I think you're missing with Sharpen the Blade is that you can ramp up a mundane weapon as needed. Say you have a +1 rapier, well for the big boss fight you can ramp choose to take out your back up sword, and make that a +3. That makes you a lot more likely to land a hit to get Stunning Strike off against higher AC opponents as well as general DPR boosting.

In terms of magic items, Bracers of Defense and any other item that gives an AC boost is usually coveted by Monks. If you go with a Quarter staff then that opens you up to a whole lot of magical staves you can make good use of in combat providing any arcane casters are cool with you getting it.

[Greywander]

Rapier is a decent option as your Kensei weapon if you want to stick with Finesse weapons. I'm a fan of Defensive Duelist for Kensei.
Still trying to figure out if the rapier fits the theme of the character concept. It's still pretty loose. In the end, the Martial Arts die more or less erases any difference between most weapons, so aside from the few I pointed out that are actually mechanically different, you might as well pick based on preferred flavor.


Even though Deft Strike does less damage then Flurry one of the benefits is that you can increase your damage while freeing up the BA for something else which gives some flexibility. [...] You basically always want to do it, the limiting factor is that it makes you very Ki hungry...
I know from playing other games that I tend to be rather conservative with resources, but I suppose the true waste is when you still have resources left over. So, if I get to short rest and still have ki, that means I didn't use enough of it. I should probably try changing my perspective on this, and perhaps initially try to use as much ki as I can every fight, and then scale back as I find myself running out.


With respect to Sharpen the Blade, keep in mind your Kensei weapon is not a specific weapon, but the weapon type. So if you take Longsword, and find a magic Longsword +1 you should actually carry two Longswords, the magic one and a non-magic one. For fights where you want to use the +3 you draw the non-magic one and use Sharpen the Blade, for fights where you don't plan on using Sharpen the Blade you use your magic one.
I could see doing this with a simple weapon +1. Once you get to a weapon +2, I have to question if it's really worth burning the ki. If you're using a weapon +1 or +2 that requires attunement, I'd hate to waste that attunement slot and ki just to get a weapon +3. Your options seem to come down to one of the following:

Use a weapon +3, save yourself an attunement slot, and don't use Sharpen the Blade.
Use a magic weapon that requires attunement and gives a bonus to attack and damage rolls, and don't use Sharpen the Blade.
Use one of the few magic weapons that requires attunement but doesn't give a bonus to attack and damage rolls, just so you can use Sharpen the Blade.

The problem is that either of the first two options seem to be more optimal than the third option. You might get some mileage out of Sharpen the Blade if you're starved for magic weapons, but eventually this will cease to be an issue and Sharpen the Blade will lose its usefulness. The best magic weapon that doesn't require attunement is a weapon +3. Of the weapons that do require attunement, most of the good ones give you a bonus to attack and damage rolls anyway, and regardless I just don't think they're worth giving up something like the Bracers of Defense, Cloak of Displacement, or Mantle of Spell Resistance.


Not sure if fits your theme but Warlock can also make a decent armorless warrior since they can use Armor of Shadows for at will Mage Armor and/or Fiendish Vigour for a solid HP boost.

Similiarly Bladesinger can go armorless if you want a magical armorless warrior.
Yup, those would be good ways to do it, too. The concept I have in mind is probably low to no magic, so I don't think I'd want to invest quite that deep into a caster class. What I really wanted to do initially was go straight fighter, but I'd need to be a race with an AC boost for that. Going monk lets me explore a class I haven't looked at too closely yet, which is good.


There's really nothing stopping a DM from switching out monk weapons for your character. I've often thought that if I were to do a swashbuckler character I'd make a monk and have his monk weapons be dagger, short sword, scimitar and rapier. I've mentioned this to the others at my table and we all agree this would be a fine way to do it. I mean to most of us swashbuckler means fencing weapons with the occasional punch or kick thrown in and spectacular feats of acrobatic daring do. Monk was kind of made for this.
Not sure I understand your post. You're saying I can refluff a monk as something else, keeping the mechanics but playing them like some kind of swashbuckling adventurer, right? That's more or less what I had in mind.

On that note, should I ever get a chance to play this build, it might be interesting to see how long I can keep my class a secret. This is a bit tricky because monk abilities are pretty specific. How could I refluff, say, unarmed attacks, especially the BA attack, to be less kung fu and more playful rogue? The only other ways to get a BA attack at 1st level is dual wielding or PAM. What about my ki abilities? For the extra speed, I could just take Mobile as my 1st level feat and explain it that way, and the party might not catch on unless they look closely at the exact distances I'm moving. Deflect Missiles would be pretty easy to explain as the attack simply not hitting me, though that might be a hard sell if I'm rolling dice to reduce missile damage.


Both shortsword and dagger are default monk weapons with finesse. They are not kensei weapon by default, but then, any finesse weapon you pick as your kensei weapon counts as monk weapon.
That was a reply to Lunali telling me finesse didn't matter since monk weapons use DEX anyway. I was just pointing that that it did matter if I wanted to use Defensive Duelist. A generous reading of the Martial Arts feature lets monk weapons act as finesse weapons, but this isn't strictly RAW.


I'm also considering taking proficiency in Persuasion and Insight. Monks aren't ideal faces, but Tongue of the Sun and Moon becomes a lot better if you're good and understanding and convincing people (especially monsters) of things. Being able to understand your enemies, especially if they don't know you understand them, can give you an edge or get you useful information. And sometimes just being able to speak the right language can allow for a diplomatic resolution to a situation. I'd like to bump CHA to at least 12, but I'm not sure if it's worth sacrificing a bit of CON or WIS.

[Sorinth]

Still trying to figure out if the rapier fits the theme of the character concept. It's still pretty loose. In the end, the Martial Arts die more or less erases any difference between most weapons, so aside from the few I pointed out that are actually mechanically different, you might as well pick based on preferred flavor.

Ask the DM if you can have a katana that would use the exact same stats as a rapier. I'm not sure there's a DM out there that wouldn't allow you to reflavour a weapon.



I know from playing other games that I tend to be rather conservative with resources, but I suppose the true waste is when you still have resources left over. So, if I get to short rest and still have ki, that means I didn't use enough of it. I should probably try changing my perspective on this, and perhaps initially try to use as much ki as I can every fight, and then scale back as I find myself running out.

I would suggest trying to keep track of other party members hit points/resources. If you play with a warlock and he's spent his two spells you can be pretty sure that he's going to want to take a short rest after the current fight so you should go nova and use all your ki points. If half the party is injured, then there's a good chance everyone will want to use hit die to heal so again start using that ki.



I could see doing this with a simple weapon +1. Once you get to a weapon +2, I have to question if it's really worth burning the ki. If you're using a weapon +1 or +2 that requires attunement, I'd hate to waste that attunement slot and ki just to get a weapon +3. Your options seem to come down to one of the following:

Use a weapon +3, save yourself an attunement slot, and don't use Sharpen the Blade.
Use a magic weapon that requires attunement and gives a bonus to attack and damage rolls, and don't use Sharpen the Blade.
Use one of the few magic weapons that requires attunement but doesn't give a bonus to attack and damage rolls, just so you can use Sharpen the Blade.

The problem is that either of the first two options seem to be more optimal than the third option. You might get some mileage out of Sharpen the Blade if you're starved for magic weapons, but eventually this will cease to be an issue and Sharpen the Blade will lose its usefulness. The best magic weapon that doesn't require attunement is a weapon +3. Of the weapons that do require attunement, most of the good ones give you a bonus to attack and damage rolls anyway, and regardless I just don't think they're worth giving up something like the Bracers of Defense, Cloak of Displacement, or Mantle of Spell Resistance.

How confident are you in getting that +2 weapon, let alone a +3 one? Especially if you need it to be a specific weapon type. The other melee classes don't care nearly as much about what weapon type they use beyond the number of hands and the finesse property. So a sword and board str fighter doesn't care if he gets a Battleaxe, Longsword, Rapier, Warhammer they are all the same to him. But you need that one specific weapon type so are much more dependent on the DM.



Yup, those would be good ways to do it, too. The concept I have in mind is probably low to no magic, so I don't think I'd want to invest quite that deep into a caster class. What I really wanted to do initially was go straight fighter, but I'd need to be a race with an AC boost for that. Going monk lets me explore a class I haven't looked at too closely yet, which is good.

Maybe check with the DM to see if you could get a homebrewed fighting style that made your AC 13+Dex when not wearing any armor.

[Sigreid]

[QUOTE=Greywander;24230782]

Not sure I understand your post. You're saying I can refluff a monk as something else, keeping the mechanics but playing them like some kind of swashbuckling adventurer, right? That's more or less what I had in mind.

On that note, should I ever get a chance to play this build, it might be interesting to see how long I can keep my class a secret. This is a bit tricky because monk abilities are pretty specific. How could I refluff, say, unarmed attacks, especially the BA attack, to be less kung fu and more playful rogue? The only other ways to get a BA attack at 1st level is dual wielding or PAM. What about my ki abilities? For the extra speed, I could just take Mobile as my 1st level feat and explain it that way, and the party might not catch on unless they look closely at the exact distances I'm moving. Deflect Missiles would be pretty easy to explain as the attack simply not hitting me, though that might be a hard sell if I'm rolling dice to reduce missile damage.

Yes, I'm saying there's no reason not to refluff it. The monk has the best match of abilities to the swashbuckler theme of any of the classes in my opinion, allowing you to do stunts that are just crazy for anyone else. Since martial arts eventually overtakes and replaces the weapon die for monks, there isn't really a good reason to not allow the substitution of weapons. By taking kensi, if I remember right you not only get a solid defensive parrying ability, but you can do full damage to critters resistant to non-magic weapons with your fancy fencing toys. IMO it's a nearly perfect fit if you just change it's "clothes".

[J-H]

We actually had this issue come up at my last session, as a player switched his Battlemaster over to a Kensei monk. If you read both the Kensei and the Monk weapon entry, you find that the Kensei-specialized weapons all count as monk weapons (XGTE), and that dexterity can be used with all monk weapons (PHB). Thus, a Kensei can use a longsword as a DEX weapon, despite it not being a Light/Finesse weapon, as it does not have the Heavy or Special property.

[Greywander]

I don't really understand your complaint about monk and kensai weapons re proficiency
It's not necessarily that it's too difficult to keep track of, it just seems both entirely unnecessary and antithetical to the 5e design philosophy. Is there any reason a thrown dagger counts as a "monk weapon" while a thrown dart does not? (Especially considering that kunai and other dart-like weapons fit the martial arts aesthetic?) For kensei weapons, why does it need to be so limited? Does it actually break everything to just make everything a monk weapon for them? Most weapons are basically interchangeable anyway, and moreso for monks, so I just don't see the point for the extra complexity.


In regards to 5e and broad stroke proficiencies, 6 out of 12 PHB classes have cherry picking (as does the UA of Artificer, the next official class).
Even in those cases, however, those classes are often either:

Non-martial classes (usually full casters) that are only given a few simple weapons. The list is usually pretty short, and these aren't usually weapon-focused classes anyway, so it isn't something you usually need to worry about.
Semi-martial or specialized martial classes that get all simple weapons, plus a couple of martial weapons. Which martial weapons they get depends on how far they lean martial or what their specialization is.

The most egregious seems to be the druid, who gets a rather lengthy list of mixed simple and martial weapons. Some of the weapon choices do seem a bit odd to me, not just for the druid, but for any of the classes with specific weapons. For example, I'm not sure why wizards and sorcerers don't get clubs, as I'd think a club would be one of the easiest weapons to use.

Point is, even when they do cherry pick weapons, it's usually either (a) for a non-martial class, so weapons aren't your focus and the list is short, or (b) just a few martial weapons on top of all simple weapons. They're small exceptions to a basic rule. The alternative would be to have a personalized list of individual weapons for each class (as seen with the druid), which would be much more complicated than what we have.


For unarmored you don't really need to multiclass or look for a specific race unless you intend on dumping Wisdom to some extent. Unarmored is what Monks do and with a top AC of 20 from just stats, they do it well.
Sorry if this got lost in the wall of text, but to clarify I was actually looking at building an unarmored "fighter", and going monk actually was one of the ways of accomplishing that. Once I'm a monk, the unarmored part is largely taken care of, so multiclassing would be for other aspects of the character (for example, I might go monk 3 / fighter 11 for the three attacks). Probably if I get to play this character, I'll just go straight monk, though.


If you go with a Quarter staff then that opens you up to a whole lot of magical staves you can make good use of in combat providing any arcane casters are cool with you getting it.
Most of them require a dip in one of the caster classes. Staves also aren't finesse, so I wouldn't be able to use Defensive Duelist. I do really like the Staff of Power because of the huge defensive boost (+2 to AC and saves is pretty boss).


Ask the DM if you can have a katana that would use the exact same stats as a rapier. I'm not sure there's a DM out there that wouldn't allow you to reflavour a weapon.
This seems to be a popular choice for kensei monks (usually it's a longsword, it wouldn't really matter unless you either MCed into rogue or got Defensive Dualist). I'm looking to eschew the Asian martial artist aesthetic, however. Thematically, the character would probably more closely resemble some mix of fighter, rogue, and (spell-less) bard.


How confident are you in getting that +2 weapon, let alone a +3 one? Especially if you need it to be a specific weapon type.
Well, I don't have a group to play with at the moment, so this is all hypothetical anyway. I do probably suffer from too much white-room analysis. That, and occasionally treating D&D like tabletop Skyrim. Still, given enough time, I'd expect to pick up a weapon +3 eventually, and if not then with enough gold I could probably commission one to be made by a master smith. But it is true that a DM might not hand out such things or otherwise make them available.

I think what frustrates me about this feature is knowing that it will eventually become obsolete, and might be obsolete by the time I get it if the DM has been generous with the loot. It just feels like a potential dead level. Maybe I just need to change my perspective. As I said, it's actually pretty strong if, for whatever reason, you don't have a magic weapon.


Yes, I'm saying there's no reason not to refluff it. The monk has the best match of abilities to the swashbuckler theme of any of the classes in my opinion, allowing you to do stunts that are just crazy for anyone else. Since martial arts eventually overtakes and replaces the weapon die for monks, there isn't really a good reason to not allow the substitution of weapons. By taking kensi, if I remember right you not only get a solid defensive parrying ability, but you can do full damage to critters resistant to non-magic weapons with your fancy fencing toys. IMO it's a nearly perfect fit if you just change it's "clothes".
Yeah, I think it will work pretty well. Nothing in the mechanics forces you into a stereotypical Eastern monk, so it could just be another type of skilled warrior, more focused on speed and a bit flashier techniques.


We actually had this issue come up at my last session, as a player switched his Battlemaster over to a Kensei monk. If you read both the Kensei and the Monk weapon entry, you find that the Kensei-specialized weapons all count as monk weapons (XGTE), and that dexterity can be used with all monk weapons (PHB). Thus, a Kensei can use a longsword as a DEX weapon, despite it not being a Light/Finesse weapon, as it does not have the Heavy or Special property.
Right, but it still doesn't qualify for Defensive Duelist since it's still not technically a finesse weapon. If you don't pick up Defensive Duelist or mutliclass into rogue, though, it shouldn't matter, and longsword would be a good pick. In fact, longsword and longbow are the obvious 3rd level picks unless you have a more specialized build.

[Sorinth]

This seems to be a popular choice for kensei monks (usually it's a longsword, it wouldn't really matter unless you either MCed into rogue or got Defensive Dualist). I'm looking to eschew the Asian martial artist aesthetic, however. Thematically, the character would probably more closely resemble some mix of fighter, rogue, and (spell-less) bard.


Well, I don't have a group to play with at the moment, so this is all hypothetical anyway. I do probably suffer from too much white-room analysis. That, and occasionally treating D&D like tabletop Skyrim. Still, given enough time, I'd expect to pick up a weapon +3 eventually, and if not then with enough gold I could probably commission one to be made by a master smith. But it is true that a DM might not hand out such things or otherwise make them available.

I think what frustrates me about this feature is knowing that it will eventually become obsolete, and might be obsolete by the time I get it if the DM has been generous with the loot. It just feels like a potential dead level. Maybe I just need to change my perspective. As I said, it's actually pretty strong if, for whatever reason, you don't have a magic weapon.

From a Min/Max point of view you'd want to go with a Versatile weapon like Lonsword because a d10 is best. However if you want Defensive Duelist you need finesse and so Rapier is your best choice.

Keep in mind if you are comissioning a weapon or if the DM will listen to player input on the magic items they want and find ways to give them out as a reward, then you don't ask for the +3 weapon, commision the frost band, ask the DM for the Manual of Quickness of Action, etc...

[J-H]

I don't think my monk player has thought of wielding his longsword in two hands. Doesn't that prevent Deflect Arrows?

[Crgaston]

I don't think my monk player has thought of wielding his longsword in two hands. Doesn't that prevent Deflect Arrows?
Worst case, it only prevents the "throwing it back" portion. Deflect Missles itself doesn't require a free hand, and since you only have to have both hands on the wrapon when actually attacking for the d10, it shouldn't be an issue at all.

https://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/jojo-odachowski/Q4M49bSEEeO00gAmVebEWg/videos.htm?videoid=f23a9092-e495-4618-abe4-86d544bb8873

[Dork_Forge]

It's not necessarily that it's too difficult to keep track of, it just seems both entirely unnecessary and antithetical to the 5e design philosophy. Is there any reason a thrown dagger counts as a "monk weapon" while a thrown dart does not? (Especially considering that kunai and other dart-like weapons fit the martial arts aesthetic?) For kensei weapons, why does it need to be so limited? Does it actually break everything to just make everything a monk weapon for them? Most weapons are basically interchangeable anyway, and moreso for monks, so I just don't see the point for the extra complexity.


Even in those cases, however, those classes are often either:

Non-martial classes (usually full casters) that are only given a few simple weapons. The list is usually pretty short, and these aren't usually weapon-focused classes anyway, so it isn't something you usually need to worry about.
Semi-martial or specialized martial classes that get all simple weapons, plus a couple of martial weapons. Which martial weapons they get depends on how far they lean martial or what their specialization is.

The most egregious seems to be the druid, who gets a rather lengthy list of mixed simple and martial weapons. Some of the weapon choices do seem a bit odd to me, not just for the druid, but for any of the classes with specific weapons. For example, I'm not sure why wizards and sorcerers don't get clubs, as I'd think a club would be one of the easiest weapons to use.

Point is, even when they do cherry pick weapons, it's usually either (a) for a non-martial class, so weapons aren't your focus and the list is short, or (b) just a few martial weapons on top of all simple weapons. They're small exceptions to a basic rule. The alternative would be to have a personalized list of individual weapons for each class (as seen with the druid), which would be much more complicated than what we have.


Sorry if this got lost in the wall of text, but to clarify I was actually looking at building an unarmored "fighter", and going monk actually was one of the ways of accomplishing that. Once I'm a monk, the unarmored part is largely taken care of, so multiclassing would be for other aspects of the character (for example, I might go monk 3 / fighter 11 for the three attacks). Probably if I get to play this character, I'll just go straight monk, though.


Most of them require a dip in one of the caster classes. Staves also aren't finesse, so I wouldn't be able to use Defensive Duelist. I do really like the Staff of Power because of the huge defensive boost (+2 to AC and saves is pretty boss).


The Kunai is more of a ninja flavoured dagger than a dart (and irl was a repurposed crowbar like tool as real swords were unavailable), though if someone wanted to use a dart as a Monk weapon I don't see any DM having a problem with it.

There's only the Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger that adhere to full weapon profs (as in no cherry picking) other wise you just have the Rogue and Monk that do. When it's done this way it gives more weight to having that "All x weapons" and highlights that class's training vs others. Though I still don't understand your issue, you seem to be saying that the norm is something like "all simple weapons and just a few martial weapons on top," but Monks DO adhere to that and the only thing Monk weapons do is say no ranged or great club for your martial arts.

Ahhh, I didn't cathc on to just an unarmored fighter in general, I actually strongly prefer not using armor on my PCs (I find it cooler and more useful). For that you could consider just dipping Draconic Sorc (far enough for Shadow Blade) on a Dex based Fighter with Dueling.

On the staff front most of the req issues are dealt with by a single Sorc dip but good non req options include: any +x, Staff of Defense (originally from LMoP), Staff of Striking and Staff of Thunder and Lightning.

[nickl_2000]

I don't think my monk player has thought of wielding his longsword in two hands. Doesn't that prevent Deflect Arrows?

Why would it? It's been confirmed that a PC can take a hand off a two handed weapon to cast a spell with the free hand, so there is no reason why they couldn't take one hand off of a versatile weapon to catch and throw back a projectile. Since deflect missiles uses the reaction, you don't even have to worry about the PC making an AoO off turn after it either.



Also, has anyone else seen this post as "Armless Warrior"?

[J-H]

Thanks. I'll remind him next time that he can two-hand his trident also, for 1d8. It's a +2 trident. Not bad for level 7.

[Crgaston]

Three posts in a row by people with "Grungy Looking Dude With a Dog" avatars lol

[Greywander]

I don't think my monk player has thought of wielding his longsword in two hands. Doesn't that prevent Deflect Arrows?

Worst case, it only prevents the "throwing it back" portion. Deflect Missles itself doesn't require a free hand, and since you only have to have both hands on the wrapon when actually attacking for the d10, it shouldn't be an issue at all.

https://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/jojo-odachowski/Q4M49bSEEeO00gAmVebEWg/videos.htm?videoid=f23a9092-e495-4618-abe4-86d544bb8873

Why would it? It's been confirmed that a PC can take a hand off a two handed weapon to cast a spell with the free hand, so there is no reason why they couldn't take one hand off of a versatile weapon to catch and throw back a projectile. Since deflect missiles uses the reaction, you don't even have to worry about the PC making an AoO off turn after it either.
IIRC, Deflect Missiles only requires a free hand if you want to throw it back. Simply deflecting it can presumably be done with a weapon (or even just your arm, hand not required). I believe you can get a similar ability in The Witcher, for example, and deflecting blaster bolts is a staple of jedi.

When it comes to two-handed weapons, one way you could think about them is that they require a "free hand" to wield. The hand you're holding them with is not free, but your other hand is (unless it's holding something else). This more or less lets you use somatic components or other actions that require a free hand while wielding a two-handed weapon. Of course, if you do something that makes your hand no longer free, such as grappling or pulling out an item, then you can no longer attack with your two-handed weapon. Versatile weapons would be okay, though, since they don't require that second hand.


Also, has anyone else seen this post as "Armless Warrior"?
Lol, that would be another interesting thread. Although I'd probably still recommend a monk for that one.

Something else I was wondering about was the order in which to take feats and ASIs. I have to take either Mobile or Defensive Duelist at 1st level. At 4th level, I'm not sure that Defensive Duelist would be better than +2 to DEX, as that gets me a permanent +1 to AC (and attack and damage rolls, and DEX saves) compared to the +2 (soon to be +3) AC against one attack at the cost of a reaction. In general, DD will be better when I'm at a higher level. This leads me to think I should take Mobile at 1st level over DD, then get +2 DEX at 4th and 8th level, DD at 12th, and +2 WIS for my last two ASIs. But maybe I should get DD at 8th? I know +2 DEX is probably more optimized than DD, especially at lower levels, but new abilities are usually more fun and exciting than just higher numbers.

I'm also curious what I might want to pick up should I get the opportunity for an extra feat. A houserule that some tables seem to have (and that I like to use) is to give a free feat at 1st level. This would let me get both Mobile and DD, but also means I'd have an extra ASI or feat. Something like Observant would let me drop my WIS 1 point so I could put 2 points into STR, INT, or CHA (probably CHA for this concept). Magic Initiate is also appealing, allowing me to get Find Familiar (I really just want to have a pet I don't have to worry about dying), Prestidigitation, and Mending, all of which would fit the concept I have in mind pretty well. Tough Lucky, or Alert would also be good picks. Athlete lets me stand up from prone with basically all of my movement.