Elder Brain Aboleth?

[Avigor]

So here is a couple of twisted hypotheticals I'm wondering about:
1: A bunch of Illithids manage to graft the genetic memory of an Aboleth into an Elder Brain.
2: A bunch of Illithids manage to surgically splice an Elder Brain into the skull of an Aboleth, keeping a severely lobotimized portion of the Aboleth brain to try and give the Elder Brain not only easier control of the body but access to aforementioned genetic memory and possibly some the Aboleth's psionic powers.
In either situation, the Illithids have somehow rationalized this to themselves, probably because the Elder Brain ordered it (I seriously doubt any Illithid would ever do such a thing to an Elder Brain without it commanding them to do it, so yeah) and they're just following orders.
What do you think would happen?
I'd expect the resultant abomination to go insane. If it was #2, it could also be a bit on the supremely dangerous side, possibly causing havok on a scale similar to a Tarrasque.
Alternatively, the result could become a ludicrously intelligent and psionically powerful mastermind the likes of which none have ever seen; if it was #2, likely producing a whole new breed of Illithid tadpoles mixed into the Aboleth mucous creating a whole new generation of mutant Illitholeths.
What do you think?

[BWR]

1. Is this a problem? Merely acquiring the memories shouldn't be a big deal. There might be some issues with incompatible information storage and interpretation (like different operating systems), but apart from that I don't think there should be an issue. It's not as if the aboleth information suddenly rewrites the Elder Brain. Even if it tried I would say an Elder Brain would be a lot more powerful than an aboleth and easily handle any attempt to wrest control.

2. 'Surgically splice'? You can't implant an EB into an aboleth because the EB is too big. If you mean 'psycically splice', I don't see that it's significantly different than having the aboleth be a permanently dominated and thoroughly memory-searched/wiped.

While the EB is the boss of a community, illithids are not drones. They are perfectly and obviously capable of independent thought and plots and action. They may be conditioned to obey the EB but they can ask questions.

While the Creative Creed might be interested in hybrids for utility I don't think they would be into creating a new master race. Illithids are immensely proud and arrogant, and any suggestion that something might be better than them is heretical in the extreme.

[Kaptin Keen]

In my book, this shouldn't be any problem. For one thing, insert a larvae into the aboleth, and it will retain some of the aboleth's memories. But if that isn't enough for the mind flayers, they can always just go to town, and psychically extract what they want to know.

Finally, if the point really is to make a brainoleth, I suppose you can simply chuck the aboleth's brain into the elderpool. This ... may be how I play mind flayers, and not universally applicable, but to me at least, this has always been how the elder brain is born, and grows: It's an amalgam, aggregate, giant quivering blobby mass of fused illithid brains. Put something else in there, and I'm sure it'll work something out. It's what mind flayers do, after all: Bespoke fantasy bioware solutions.

[Millstone85]

I too find it more likely that illithids would try to either:

eat an aboleth's brain.
implant a tadpole into an aboleth.

But I also believe that such attempts would fail. Harnessing the power of abolethic recollection ought to be something of a holy grail for the illithids.

[Mordaedil]

Illithids don't really go about making new elder brains out of the goodness of their heart, they are technically enslaved by the elder brains, and they are fiercly competetive amongst eachother.

A colony of freed illithids from an elder brain's influence wouldn't normally be in a hurry to make a new one.

Experimenting to create a new elder brain would have to be a pretty insane attempt, either by an illithid convinced they could control it or by an elder brain pondering how to create a new type of slave.

[Millstone85]

Experimenting to create a new elder brain would have to be a pretty insane attempt, either by an illithid convinced they could control it or by an elder brain pondering how to create a new type of slave.I don't know how it compares to previous editions, but I like the way 5e's VGtM describes variations between elder brains. Some micromanage their colonies, while others almost let the illithids rule themselves. Some resent the emergence of an ulitharid, while others gladly invest it with authority.

The book also makes an ulitharid the seed of a new elder brain, something even hostile elder brains allow to happen in the name of the species' survival.

Even then, an elder brain probably wouldn't try to create any kind of greater elder brain. Unless, perhaps, they had really strong faith in Ilsensine, which 5e reinterprets as a philosophy of universal consciousness.

[Imbalance]

Interesting. Hypothetical aberrations are a large part of what finally drew me into D&D, inspiring the headcannon behind my avatar. The Beholderplex is...more than it seems, and probably conflicts with official lore on a great many fronts, but that's homebrew for ya. Just imagine if the first sentient meal that a wayward neothelid enjoys happens to be a long dreaming aboleth, caught unawares and dry-shelled, the inherited memories of which utterly overwhelm the worm's postponed ceremorphosis. This creature is all but crushed by self-awareness and loathing. It cannot reverse, cannot die, cannot stand its own existence, yet can't help being what it is. In time, it gives birth to its own clutch of seugathi, and sets itself up to become an abominable sort of elder brain.

Through stranger eons it did just that, lingering in a constant dream state of psychic conquest, developing unimaginable means to remain comfortable and secure in a marvelous device built by countless slaves that allowed it free reign of the mind. Thus, it could reach out to other meta-conscious beings throughout the realms, mentally dominating powerful entities for sport. Beholders became a favored target early on, but the amusement of turning their paranoia against them evolved into jealousy of their mobility and ability to witness and destroy. At length, this "abolbrain" grew bored with remote control, as rational genius was supplanted by compulsory obsession. It devised its ultimate plan to once again transform into something else, something more.

Enthralling the first eye tyrant and drawing it into the lair was child's play. Entering its dreams and fueling its nightmares was but a simple task. Maintaining the psychic bond over years until the victim creates a duplicate of itself took minimal effort. Repeating the effect multiple times with multiple beholders until decades had passed, turning into a century, until, at last, a suitable hive mother was spawned required patience and no small amount of concentration. Finally, taxed as the abolbrain was, it forced wizards in its thrall to permanently enlarge the ultimate tyrant while it played host to a briny larva, and oversaw the creation of its monstrous vessel.

Employing techniques of its own design, the abolbrain had the central eye of the giant mindwitness upgraded with a multi-faceted, crystalline lense that not only provided a durable layer of protection but also enhanced and focused the creature's anti-magic cone. Each of its eyes were plucked out and replaced with biomechanical necks housing psychic conduits fed into the giant's skull, which was properly hollowed out and fitted with all of the necessary amenities required for a luxurious brine tank. Ten of the fittest remaining beholders were then selected and harnessed each to a neck of great tyrant's cybernetic array, and, lastly, the abolbrain was transferred into its stunning new seat of power, where it directly commands unlimited mobility, unbridled magical energy, unparalleled sight, and an insatiable thirst for evil on top of its enormous mental abilities.

This thoughtwalk is an amalgam of my favorite D&D alien monsters, so, yeah, it's completely gonzo. I haven't bothered to stat the thing in spite of how much thought I've given it. Maybe someday.

[Kaptin Keen]

Illithids don't really go about making new elder brains out of the goodness of their heart, they are technically enslaved by the elder brains, and they are fiercly competetive amongst each other.

They are what now? The elder brain has literally no way of enforcing any sort of power over the individual illithids. But ... never mind that, maybe there's some random source out there to support this view*.

The elderbrain is the central hub for the illithid mental internet. The illithids are a sort of partial hive mind, not sharing individual thoughts, but having easy and constant access to each other, via telepathy obviously, but also via the elder brain. What this means in practical terms is that any encounter with one illithid is technically an encounter with all illithids connected to the same elderbrain, as they can instantly teleport in - if so inclined.


Aha! I checked, and version evolution provides support for this view. Apparently, after the ullitharid were introduced in some random sourcebook, another random sourcebook later added that they are what becomes new elder brains.

I do not approve. But then, I rarely do.

This is how new elder brains are made: When the body of an illithid dies, it goes into the pool. If it's an established pool, then the brain fuses with the elder brain. If it's not ... then a pool is established using this first brain, lots of nutrients from the brains of various victims, and revolting psionic rituals performed by the other illithid. Illithids form elder brains to act as a focus for their societies, to get their mental internet online, and to ensure that they survive death by joining with it.

[Mordaedil]

Lords of Madness for 3.5 goes into Illithid society at large and how their society works.

[Millstone85]

I do not approve. But then, I rarely do.Like you said, there has to be an initial brain in the pool. All the recent books did was establish that first brain as belonging to a particularly strong illithid, called an ulitharid. Me, I find that a worthy addition to the lore, especially when it goes into the coexistence of an elder brain and an ulitharid before the latter goes to found a new colony.


and to ensure that they survive death by joining with it.This point has been described as a flat-out lie on the part of the elder brains. It is just something they say so they can feed on illithids.

But in 5e's VGtM, elder brains are said to actually hold the belief that illithid minds survive within them, as do the minds of humanoids that illithids have fed upon. I like that too, because it means that elder brains and illithids might see themselves as doing everyone a service.

Though of course, the book insists that they are called mind flayers for a reason.

[Kaptin Keen]

Like you said, there has to be an initial brain in the pool. All the recent books did was establish that first brain as belonging to a particularly strong illithid, called an ulitharid. Me, I find that a worthy addition to the lore, especially when it goes into the coexistence of an elder brain and an ulitharid before the latter goes to found a new colony.

It just seems like ... the illithid life cycle is convoluted enough as is - there's really no cause to introduce yet another step, on top of the egg > tadpole > eat brain - convert body > excrete eggs > deposit in elder pool > redo from start.


This point has been described as a flat-out lie on the part of the elder brains. It is just something they say so they can feed on illithids.

This I can get behind, however: That mind flayers have only the most casual acquantance with the truth - and only ever use it if it happens to align with their ambitions - is spot on.


But in 5e's VGtM, elder brains are said to actually hold the belief that illithid minds survive within them, as do the minds of humanoids that illithids have fed upon. I like that too, because it means that elder brains and illithids might see themselves as doing everyone a service.

Though of course, the book insists that they are called mind flayers for a reason.

I used this in a recent game - the idea was basically that one mind flayer had convinced a group of mortals that being part of the hive mind was a good thing, and that they would eventually attain immortality. And what's more, they'd only be food when they were old and decrepit anyways.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So here's my take even though Aboleth heads are really big they aren't big enough to hold an Elder Brain. However, after several failed experiments I could picture a successful implanting of an Illithid tadpole in an Aboleth obviously the successful product of this experment would be both physically and psionically formidable.

As the Abolithid grew in power the interaction of Aboleth and Illithid biology might eventually result in it being able to tap into Illithid racial memory which eventually leads it to learn the lie behind Illithid society; The Elder Brain does not maintain the "self" of the Illithids whose brains are dropped into the tank upon death. Thus when it is time for the Abolithid to contribute either its brain or just tadpoles it uses Autohypnosis or some other trick to hide its intentions and kills the Elder Brain. It seems like a given that if the Abolithid wasn't a mule and could produce tadpoles that it's tadpoles would be stronger than normal tadpoles and one of its tadpoles would win the game of predator/prey to become the new Elder Brain.

[Psyren]

2. 'Surgically splice'? You can't implant an EB into an aboleth because the EB is too big.

The Aboleth is actually bigger. Would be a tight fit though.