Spyglass stuff?

[Tyrael]

Ahoy, folks. Since my recent PC died off in our sea campaign (he was rather ill-suited for the environment), I'm making a new char loosely based on Jack Sparrow. When purchasing equipment I sorta realized that if he's on his ship, a pirate/corsair/sailor barely really needs anything in the ways of equipment. So I began grabbing random stuff for fluff reasons, and I came across the Spyglass.

Aside from being the most absurdly-priced item in the PHB, what does the Spyglass actually DO? The entry reads, "Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size." That's it.

So, question, ye forumites: Does the Spyglass give any sort of mechanical bonus? Maybe +2 Spot or Search or something? I mean, if you have an item costing 1,000 gp, it had better give you SOME sort of benefit.

[Chronos]

I don't know if this is supported in the rules, but the simplest interpretation would be to halve effective distance for determining spot/search penalties.

[triforcel]

Most simply it would change the penalty on spot checks from -1 per 10 feet to -1 per 20 feet, as was stated above. It's probably really useful out at sea where your view will be unobstructed for long distances.

[GenLee]

It's just as useful as a block & tackle (see table 7-8 in the PHB, but no item description). Aha, an anti-sailor bias?

Seriously, in previous editions, there was a table outlining at what distances one could spot objects, see detail, etc. It's one of the few things that I think 3e/3.5 really fell down on, and I quickly copied over the table from 2ed.

[Dervag]

Most simply it would change the penalty on spot checks from -1 per 10 feet to -1 per 20 feet, as was stated above. It's probably really useful out at sea where your view will be unobstructed for long distances.You still wouldn't be able to see anything beyond, say, 1000 feet, though.

I once came up with a system of size-dependent distance penalties designed to make it much easier to spot a very large object (such as a ship at sea) than a very small object (such as an ant). The rules as written do not appear to contain such a feature, at least not for objects that are not trying to hide (such as a ship on the open seas).

[Tor the Fallen]

You still wouldn't be able to see anything beyond, say, 1000 feet, though.

Why? Eye level, on a clear day, the horizon line is two miles away. You can see tall mountains from hundreds of miles away on a clear day; from the top of tall mountains you can see even further.

[TheElfLord]

Why? Eye level, on a clear day, the horizon line is two miles away. You can see tall mountains from hundreds of miles away on a clear day; from the top of tall mountains you can see even further.

Because even with a spyglass giving a -1 for every 20 feet looking at something 1000 ft away imposes a -50 penalty.

[RTGoodman]

Seriously, in previous editions, there was a table outlining at what distances one could spot objects, see detail, etc. It's one of the few things that I think 3e/3.5 really fell down on, and I quickly copied over the table from 2ed.

Well, according to the Environments section in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm), there are maximum spot distances for each type of terrain (the last thing listed for each environment). I don't think it says anything about determining detail or anything like that, though.

[Anxe]

What thelflord and Triforcel said. Spyglasses halve distance penalties for spot.

[Tor the Fallen]

Because even with a spyglass giving a -1 for every 20 feet looking at something 1000 ft away imposes a -50 penalty.

Spotting something hiding. Unless the ship has Hide in Plane Site, I don't think you're going to be, mmmmm, missing it.

[Serpentine]

Because even with a spyglass giving a -1 for every 20 feet looking at something 1000 ft away imposes a -50 penalty.
Presumably, someone would get a substantial bonus for looking at something the size of, say, a mountain. +50 would probably do it.

[Dervag]

Spotting something hiding. Unless the ship has Hide in Plane Site, I don't think you're going to be, mmmmm, missing it.The problem is that the Spot DC for an object that is not hiding is 0.

Spotting something that is not hiding and that is 100 feet away is therefore DC 10, and so forth. Half those DCs with a spyglass, and you still have a problem seeing anything 1000 feet away unless you have epic levels of Spottiness.

Common sense dictates that spot penalties for distance should be size-dependant. As others have noted, you can easily see a Colossal object such as a building from miles away. However, to my knowledge there are no rules as written that dictate such a thing.


Presumably, someone would get a substantial bonus for looking at something the size of, say, a mountain. +50 would probably do it.Even then, the spot penalty for seeing something one mile away (with a spyglass) is -264. And to make matters worse, any flat spot bonus you impose has the drawback that the object fades into invisibility very fast once you reach the point where the penalty and the bonus cancel each other out. Give a mountain a +10000 bonus for Spot checks and I can see it 18.9 miles away, sure thing. But I can't hope to spot it 19 miles away.

The fundamental problem remains that the Spot penalty for distance doesn't scale with the size of the object.

[Bender]

A start could be applying the size bonus/penalty on hide also when the object is not hiding, extrapolating for larger objects.
That still wouldn't solve it completely. I remember a thread where someone calculated that it was completely and utterly impossible for anyone to spot the sun.
You'd need a system that uses apparent size (an object twice as far, but twice as big has the same spot DC) e.g. keep halving the distance and the size of an object until you are between 100 and 200 ft, then use the normal distance modifier and a modifier for it's apparent size. A spy glass would consider it to be a size larger.


Even then, the spot penalty for seeing something one mile away (with a spyglass) is -264 [... ...] Give a mountain a +10000 bonus for Spot checks and I can see it 18.9 miles away, sure thing. But I can't hope to spot it 19 miles away.
Ah, the lovely Imperial measurement system...
gives your calculations a nice medieval flavour :smallamused:

[Dervag]

A start could be applying the size bonus/penalty on hide also when the object is not hiding, extrapolating for larger objects.
That still wouldn't solve it completely. I remember a thread where someone calculated that it was completely and utterly impossible for anyone to spot the sun.
You'd need a system that uses apparent size (an object twice as far, but twice as big has the same spot DC) e.g. keep halving the distance and the size of an object until you are between 100 and 200 ft, then use the normal distance modifier and a modifier for it's apparent size. A spy glass would consider it to be a size larger.What I did was guesstimate a distance at which the ordinary person's unaided eye could not reliably spot something, even something that was not deliberately concealing itself, and call this a DC 10 Spot check on the basis of distance modifiers. So that distance was 10 distance increments. My modifiers went like this, I think:

Fine: +2/5 feet
Diminutive: +1/5 feet
Tiny: +1/10 feet
Small: +1/20 feet
Medium: +1/40 feet (in adequate light and in terrain that offers no concealment, a standing person would have to be several hundred feet away for it to be plausible for an ordinary person to not see them at all if they were looking for people).

Large: +1/80 feet
Huge: +1/160 feet
Gargantuan: +1/320 feet
Colossal: +1/640 feet.

Theoretically, objects much larger than a 'merely' Colossal object (such as a mountain), or composed of many Colossal, Gargantuan, and Huge objects (such as a forest) might reasonably have even larger distance increments.

I feel that this system offers a good baseline rule. The specific increments may be subject to debate, and the system can definitely stand to be refined, but the idea does at least link the size and visibility of an object.

This method requires slightly less calculation than your own worthy proposal, but is also marginally less accurate (since it does not distinguish between different-sized objects in the same category, or between a tall creature and a broad creature in the same category).

Note that these increments are calibrated for a creature that is not especially visible but that is not concealed by its surroundings. The definition of 'concealment' varies; an ant in tall grass is effectively invisible, while a cat is marginally visible and an elephant is as obvious as a coal pile in a ballroom. Creatures that clash with the background (a party of horsemen skylined against a ridge, or a creature with an electric blue fur coat in a forest) may have a negative Spot DC check.

Ships, typically being Colossal objects, will be easily visible to the naked eye out to at least a mile, 2.5 miles with a spyglass, or several miles for creatures with a significant Spot bonus and a spyglass (such as a pirate captain or a good lookout). Boats will be harder to spot at long distance, while extremely large ships (larger even than Colossal) will be easier to spot.

For reference, a Colossal object is defined as being at least 64 feet long or tall, and almost any multimasted vessel will be quite a bit larger than that. The big galleons and warships of the late Age of Sail were often at least twice that large in length and in height, ranging up to three or even four times that.

[Curmudgeon]

The problem is that the Spot DC for an object that is not hiding is 0. No, that's only the Spot DC for Large objects not hiding. A mountain is way past Gargantuan in size.

[Dervag]

No, that's only the Spot DC for Large objects not hiding. A mountain is way past Gargantuan in size.I could have sworn...

Where is this written?

Moreover, if we don't fix the range increments, the base DC to spot things won't matter. We still get the absurd result that everything can be seen with trivial ease out to X feet, and then becomes effectively invisible at X+1000 feet no matter how good a Spotter you are.

[Tor the Fallen]

Um, it's called DUNGEONS&Dragons for a reason?

[Bender]

Fine: +2/5 feet
Diminutive: +1/5 feet
Tiny: +1/10 feet
Small: +1/20 feet
Medium: +1/40 feet (in adequate light and in terrain that offers no concealment, a standing person would have to be several hundred feet away for it to be plausible for an ordinary person to not see them at all if they were looking for people).

Large: +1/80 feet
Huge: +1/160 feet
Gargantuan: +1/320 feet
Colossal: +1/640 feet.
I really like this system.
You'd have to add some modifiers for circomstances and determine a maximum spotting distance depending on smog/dirt/moisture in the air, but that's just common sense.

(Note that this system can allow tall towers and certainly mountains to be spotted from much further than possible on earth, but that's ok, since earth is round and your campaign world might be flat)


Um, it's called DUNGEONS&Dragons for a reason?
even in dungeons, there can be vast caverns, many miles across, with mountains and cities...

[Ecalsneerg]

even in dungeons, there can be vast caverns, many miles across, with mountains and cities...

Underdark: a fabulous holiday resort, coming soon.

[Citizen Joe]

Why? Eye level, on a clear day, the horizon line is two miles away. You can see tall mountains from hundreds of miles away on a clear day; from the top of tall mountains you can see even further.

Actually, due to atmospheric attenuation you can only see out about 20 miles on a clear day. When you get up high enough the air can thin out enough you can see about 200 miles max. Note that the atmosphere is relatively thin, so when you look out into the night's sky you've only got a few miles of atmospheric attenuation before you hit clear vacuum.

[Curmudgeon]

I could have sworn...

Where is this written? Table 4-3: Difficulty Class Examples, on page 64 of the Player's Handbook. Each size change moves the Spot difficulty (effective Hide number) by +/- 4.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16. (It's a little weird to use a Hide modifier for something that's in plain sight, but that's the nature of the Spot opposed check.)

The basic problem is that the Hide equivalent scales logarithmically (-4 for each doubling of the target's dimension), while the Spot penalty for distance stays linear (-1 for each 10').

With 11.5 million feet for the diameter of the moon, that's 21 size steps up from large, making the DC to Spot the Moon in plain sight -84. But the Spot penalty for our distance to the moon is -126,139,200 (approximately). So, in D&D, it's impossible to Spot the moon.

[Citizen Joe]

Don't you get a bonus because the moon is moving:smallamused:

[Hyozo]

With 11.5 million feet for the diameter of the moon, that's 21 size steps up from large, making the DC to Spot the Moon in plain sight -84. But the Spot penalty for our distance to the moon is -126,139,200 (approximately). So, in D&D, it's impossible to Spot the moon.

Yes, finally a way I can remove both catgirls and lycanthropes from a campaign. What would the spot DC to see the sun be? :smalltongue:

[Dervag]

(Note that this system can allow tall towers and certainly mountains to be spotted from much further than possible on earth, but that's ok, since earth is round and your campaign world might be flat)OK, so you impose a terrain/weather-based cap on the maximum distance of visibility. That's a common artifact of systems like this.


Table 4-3: Difficulty Class Examples, on page 64 of the Player's Handbook. Each size change moves the Spot difficulty (effective Hide number) by +/- 4. (It's a little weird to use a Hide modifier for something that's in plain sight, but that's the nature of the Spot opposed check.)

The basic problem is that the Hide equivalent scales logarithmically (-4 for each doubling of the target's dimension), while the Spot penalty for distance stays linear (-1 for each 10').

With 11.5 million feet for the diameter of the moon, that's 21 size steps up from large, making the DC to Spot the Moon in plain sight -84. But the Spot penalty for our distance to the moon is -126,139,200 (approximately). So, in D&D, it's impossible to Spot the moon.[/quote]Yes, that was exactly the problem I was talking about, only I use examples of smaller objects such as mountains and elephants.

What I'm trying to say is that this mechanic is designed to supercede the Hide-based mechanic for objects in plain sight, and possibly even for objects that are not in plain sight (not sure how well that would work).

I'm setting things up so that the distance penalty decreases with the size of the object- to be precise, it doubles with each doubling of the object's dimension. If you keep doubling the distance increments on my scale until you get to the size of the moon, I'm hoping that the moon will still be visible. The planets might not be; the system isn't perfect and no good Spot system designed for non-glowing objects will handle glowing objects well.

[Bender]

I'm setting things up so that the distance penalty decreases with the size of the object- to be precise, it doubles with each doubling of the object's dimension. If you keep doubling the distance increments on my scale until you get to the size of the moon, I'm hoping that the moon will still be visible. The planets might not be; the system isn't perfect and no good Spot system designed for non-glowing objects will handle glowing objects well.
good news: DC for a moon-sized object in your system would be +1/167772160 ft, while the distance to the moon is slightly less, so the DC is 0 :smallsmile: (on a cloudless night of course)

I'm sure calculations of the sun would have the same results, since the distance modifier would be multiplied with 400, exactly the same as the actual distance. With some added penalty for being very bright, the sun is impossible to miss (as it should be)

[Collin152]

Um, it's called DUNGEONS&Dragons for a reason?

Tell it to Stormwrack, buddy!