Ring of sustenance question

[schreier]

I've always played it that it gives you all sustenance requirements, and that you don't need to go to the bathroom.

I just re-read the description.. SRD says "This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment."

Not sure nourishment includes hydration ... And if it provides sustenance rather than eliminate the need for it - do you still go to the bathroom?

I still think yes it provides hydration, and no you don't go to the bathroom, but I wanted to get other's thoughts.

[DeTess]

It definitely should provide hydration, as that's part of nourishment.

Whether it obviates the need of going to the bathroom is very much an individual DM's call though, and it all depends on how they imagine the ring working. Some might rule that it keeps your body functioning "because magic" and leave it at that, so you'd probably not need the bathroom. Other might say that it works by basically casting 'create food and water' directly into your stomach, so you'd still need to get rid of excess materials like someone eating normally.

[schreier]

That was my thought, but I googled nutrition and hydration, and there are a ton of articles listed them separately. Started questioning myself

[DeTess]

That was my thought, but I googled nutrition and hydration, and there are a ton of articles listed them separately. Started questioning myself

The wikipedia article has water listed under nutrients, so I want with that absolutely infallible source :P

[Feantar]

It definitely should provide hydration, as that's part of nourishment.

Whether it obviates the need of going to the bathroom is very much an individual DM's call though, and it all depends on how they imagine the ring working. Some might rule that it keeps your body functioning "because magic" and leave it at that, so you'd probably not need the bathroom. Other might say that it works by basically casting 'create food and water' directly into your stomach, so you'd still need to get rid of excess materials like someone eating normally.

Huh. The interpretation you gave is more reasonable, but I always pictured it as the ring essentially refreshing the chemical energy in your body (essentially giving enough energy to reverse the byproducts of glucose back into glucose etc); so there's no waste and therefore, no bathroom.

But yeah, it strikes me that the way I thought about it was overtly complex. Just posting this as an alternative.

[Crake]

You're conflating nourishment and nutrituion. It's very simple, the definition of "nourish" is "provide with the food or other substances necessary for growth, health, and good condition."

Would you say that water is required for:

Growth
Health
Good Condition


If you answered yes to any of these (or more likely, all), then water is part of nourishment.

[Jack_Simth]

I've always played it that it gives you all sustenance requirements, and that you don't need to go to the bathroom.

I just re-read the description.. SRD says "This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment."

Not sure nourishment includes hydration ... And if it provides sustenance rather than eliminate the need for it - do you still go to the bathroom?

I still think yes it provides hydration, and no you don't go to the bathroom, but I wanted to get other's thoughts.

Theoretically yes (muscular action produces byproducts that your system needs to flush out, and the same systems remove toxins from your blood from any source), but ... isn't that one of the things that's generally abstracted in most games, and simply doesn't come up "on screen"?

[schreier]

Theoretically yes (muscular action produces byproducts that your system needs to flush out, and the same systems remove toxins from your blood from any source), but ... isn't that one of the things that's generally abstracted in most games, and simply doesn't come up "on screen"?

I would agree it's normally off-screen. But I had a ranger character that was often stalking prey, and the lack of need to use the facilities was a roleplaying point.

Also - I was in the process of designing a stronghold, and the head of the estate has a ring, so I was trying to determine the importance of a bathroom in the master suite (and if there was one, how much to invest in it, and what to include (self-cleaning chamber pot?))

[Fizban]

The Ring of Sustenance is already bonkers enough just annihilating sleep requirements, if it's that powerful I see no reason why it wouldn't take care of everything because magic.

Indeed, the only downside of this ludicrously underpriced effect is the fact that anyone who actually wears it for a significant length of time will find themselves greatly distanced from the human condition of mere mortals. Never hungry or thirsty, shrugging off all tiredness with a nap that barely reduces your productivity, never being interrupted by the need to go be vulnerable for an indeterminate amount of time while your tragically flawed meat suit cycles waste. All that's left is to deal with that pesky aging problem. And if those doddering food-eating peasants would get in your way, well they're no great loss, spend all their time sleeping and filling chamber pots anyway. In fact, so-called "undeath" seems to remove even the need for that 2 hour daily waste of time, as well as the aging, that does sound promising. . .

Yeah I've just banned them myself. Even the elves' lifespan and half-cost "sleep" require a massive suspension of disbelief and handwaving to avoid shattering verisimiltude. I don't need a beginner tier magic item doing the same.


Also, I can't imagine any but the most egotistical building designer deliberately leaving a bathroom out just because they personally are wearing a ring that means they don't need it. If the ring is ever removed, it takes a week to reactivate. If they ever have anyone visit their chambers, what's the likelihood that person will have no need of the facility? The amount of money saved is trivial, the optics of having a master "suite" without the part that makes it a suite mean that this person is either mad, or specifically flaunting their power of not needing to use the bathroom.

[RatElemental]

(self-cleaning chamber pot?)

My favorite option is to use a chute feeding into a bag of devouring or if you wanna get real fancy sphere of annihilation.

[Hunter Noventa]

Also, I'm pretty sure the Ring of Sustenance doesn't prevent you from eating. Otherwise you could never gain the benefit of things like Goodberry or Heroes Feat. So I'd say, if you actually eat, then you still need to use the facilities as normal. If you don't eat though, you don't have to go.

[schreier]

Also, I'm pretty sure the Ring of Sustenance doesn't prevent you from eating. Otherwise you could never gain the benefit of things like Goodberry or Heroes Feat. So I'd say, if you actually eat, then you still need to use the facilities as normal. If you don't eat though, you don't have to go.


That was my default position honestly - just curious what most people do with the item.

And I agree, it is incredibly useful in all ways.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I usually just use a travel cloak from magic of faerun to cover food, drink, and shelter needs out in the field. Party's casters need eight hours of downtime to recharge all their spell slots, whether they spend it all asleep or not, since any spells spent within eight hours of preparation don't recharge. Since the sleep aspect doesn't actually affect things much and the cloak is cheaper and gives you a tent and continual cold weather protection, it's just a better deal altogether.

Now to answer the question.

First, let's just get this out of the way; D&D physics and biology is not RL physics and biology. It's superficially similar on the macro level. Too much breaks down completely if you try look at it through the standard chemical and biological models of modern science. Nevermind ecology, geology, and a whole host of other sciences. Even some basic physics elements break down pretty badly when you compare them with things that are known to happen in the game world like flying dragons and colossal creatures.

With that out of the way, I've always interpreted the ring of sustenance as simply providing the nebulous life energy normally derived from the consumption of food and the act of sleep if that energy is lacking for failure to engage in either of those activities. You don't eat, there's no waste to eliminate so you don't need to use the facilities. You eat enough that the ring doesn't really need to cover that energy, you go normally.

It's all a GM interpretation game though. The ring only does what the text says it does. The implications of doing so are up for interpretation by whomever is doing the world-building.

[Mordaedil]

The idea behind the ring is to eliminate some book-keeping. If you want to add more book-keeping, it kinda defeats the purpose of the ring in the first place.

[schreier]

The idea behind the ring is to eliminate some book-keeping. If you want to add more book-keeping, it kinda defeats the purpose of the ring in the first place.

I agree, but did not want to assume an interpretation if it was significantly different than the norm - it seems like most just let it handle food AND water and no need to use the bathroom.

It is interesting, because you could go too far - is air nourishment? But since we have the necklace of adaptation, I assumed not (and believe almost everyone else agrees)

[Feantar]

I agree, but did not want to assume an interpretation if it was significantly different than the norm - it seems like most just let it handle food AND water and no need to use the bathroom.

It is interesting, because you could go too far - is air nourishment? But since we have the necklace of adaptation, I assumed not (and believe almost everyone else agrees)

Implicitly no. Check the Ioun stones. There's one sustaining you without food and water (about double the cost of the ring, 4000 gp), and another sustaining you without air, which costs a bit more than four times the price.

[schreier]

Implicitly no. Check the Ioun stones. There's one sustaining you without food and water (about double the cost of the ring, 4000 gp), and another sustaining you without air, which costs a bit more than four times the price.

Playing devil's advocate, the ioun stone specifies food and water, while the ring of sustenance states nourishment.

That being said, I don't think it sustains without air, just pointing out the difference

[Malphegor]

I usually just use a travel cloak from magic of faerun to cover food, drink, and shelter needs out in the field. Party's casters need eight hours of downtime to recharge all their spell slots, whether they spend it all asleep or not, since any spells spent within eight hours of preparation don't recharge. Since the sleep aspect doesn't actually affect things much and the cloak is cheaper and gives you a tent and continual cold weather protection, it's just a better deal altogether..

While we're talking about survival options, my go-to is a survival pouch from Races of the Wild. 5/day survival stuff, including food, shelter, water, tent, campfire stuff, ordinary hemp rope and a mule.

My inventory got shrunk dramatically in small value items once I got those- it's arguably more expensive than those things put together but as it's reneweable it means those things are largely disposable to me now.

If a situation requires a donkey-rope pulley system, I will now do it without hesitation.

[schreier]

While we're talking about survival options, my go-to is a survival pouch from Races of the Wild. 5/day survival stuff, including food, shelter, water, tent, campfire stuff, ordinary hemp rope and a mule.

My inventory got shrunk dramatically in small value items once I got those- it's arguably more expensive than those things put together but as it's reneweable it means those things are largely disposable to me now.

If a situation requires a donkey-rope pulley system, I will now do it without hesitation.

Fire/torches on demand was always a favorite from that too

[Crichton]

As alternatives, let us not forget


Everlasting Rations (MIC, 350gp) - never need to think about food again
Everfull Mug (MIC, 200gp) - if your DM is really strict about Medium creatures needing a full gallon per day, you'll need 4 of these. Bonus, you can drink ale or wine!
Magic Bedroll (MIC, 500gp) - Doesn't remove or shorten the need for sleep, but heals you for another 1hp/day when you use it, essentially doubling your natural healing rate, plus, you'll always be under the effects of Endure Elements!

Total cost: 1050-1650gp, depending on your DM's take on the 1/gallon per day for liquids.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While we're talking about survival options, my go-to is a survival pouch from Races of the Wild. 5/day survival stuff, including food, shelter, water, tent, campfire stuff, ordinary hemp rope and a mule.

My inventory got shrunk dramatically in small value items once I got those- it's arguably more expensive than those things put together but as it's reneweable it means those things are largely disposable to me now.

If a situation requires a donkey-rope pulley system, I will now do it without hesitation.

Bit high, IMO, at 5k but I can definitely see the appeal.

[Fizban]

Everfull Mug (MIC, 200gp) - if your DM is really strict about Medium creatures needing a full gallon per day, you'll need 4 of these. Bonus, you can drink ale or wine!
I'm pretty sure this was written back when "they" (whoever they is) were trying to tell everyone they absolutely needed to drink eight glasses of water a day. At 8oz glasses that's 64oz of water, which is still only half a gallon. And most people don't even drink that much, because they don't actually need to. Now, if you're marching in the sun all day in between a series of life and death fights, then yeah on that day you're probably gonna need more water, or if you're working in the fields all day. But considering the number of possible sedentary professions, many PCs being clerics and wizards who spend most of their time indoors and not doing sick lifts, assuming every character drinks a gallon a day always seemed ridiculous. Even the waterskin in the PHB only holds half a gallon.

There is of course a Replenishing Skin in MiC which will produce multiple gallons per day if constantly emptied, but it costs 5x as much. I of course prefer the Travel Cloak, whose only problem is that if you deploy the tent form you are no longer wearing the cloak and thus lose Endure Elements and immunity to rain, which was way better than the tent. As to whether I find the various prices reasonable, eh. Technically none of them make you better at fighting so they ought not to count against your gear- magical food/water production is essentially just a dedicated form of extradimensional storage, which doesn't need to be refilled but only holds the one thing, and storage is super-cheap too. Much like the storage, the Travel Cloak is such a no-brainer it should be either banned or free, because rarely are such effects actually incorporated into an adventure properly enough to merit a conflict with investing in combat gear.


Edit: So I was just thinking about adding a bit about trying to handle storage/camping without magic items or custom spells, which pretty much just means Shrink Item, and wondered what the Permanency cost is. 1,500xp, which converts to 7,500gp. If you can shrink a bag full of items by targeting the bag (compare shrinking "a fire and its fuel"), and the permanent version can be resized multiple times, then does a permanently shrunk bag basically become a Bag of Holding. And then wait a second, there's a 7,400gp Bag of Holding. And the first two bags have weight ratios of close to the 1/16 of the Shrink Item spell (basically spot on for bag 1), though the volume is bonkers compared to either spell. Anyone got the 2e text for Shrink Item handy? 'Cause if it has a table that lines up with the Bag of Holding numbers, I'm basically taking that as hard proof that Shrink Item was the real prerequisite all along. Otherwise it's just a mighty fine coincidence that this item that has a bogus prerequisite happens to already shadow an appropriate spell. (There's another coincidental permanency/item cost when you compare Teleportation Circle, Portals, and Create Crossroads, but I digress).

[Crichton]

I'm pretty sure this was written back when "they" (whoever they is) were trying to tell everyone they absolutely needed to drink eight glasses of water a day. At 8oz glasses that's 64oz of water, which is still only half a gallon. And most people don't even drink that much, because they don't actually need to. Now, if you're marching in the sun all day in between a series of life and death fights, then yeah on that day you're probably gonna need more water, or if you're working in the fields all day. But considering the number of possible sedentary professions, many PCs being clerics and wizards who spend most of their time indoors and not doing sick lifts, assuming every character drinks a gallon a day always seemed ridiculous. Even the waterskin in the PHB only holds half a gallon.

There is of course a Replenishing Skin in MiC which will produce multiple gallons per day if constantly emptied, but it costs 5x as much. I of course prefer the Travel Cloak, whose only problem is that if you deploy the tent form you are no longer wearing the cloak and thus lose Endure Elements and immunity to rain, which was way better than the tent. As to whether I find the various prices reasonable, eh. Technically none of them make you better at fighting so they ought not to count against your gear- magical food/water production is essentially just a dedicated form of extradimensional storage, which doesn't need to be refilled but only holds the one thing, and storage is super-cheap too. Much like the storage, the Travel Cloak is such a no-brainer it should be either banned or free, because rarely are such effects actually incorporated into an adventure properly enough to merit a conflict with investing in combat gear.


Edit: So I was just thinking about adding a bit about trying to handle storage/camping without magic items or custom spells, which pretty much just means Shrink Item, and wondered what the Permanency cost is. 1,500xp, which converts to 7,500gp. If you can shrink a bag full of items by targeting the bag (compare shrinking "a fire and its fuel"), and the permanent version can be resized multiple times, then does a permanently shrunk bag basically become a Bag of Holding. And then wait a second, there's a 7,400gp Bag of Holding. And the first two bags have weight ratios of close to the 1/16 of the Shrink Item spell (basically spot on for bag 1), though the volume is bonkers compared to either spell. Anyone got the 2e text for Shrink Item handy? 'Cause if it has a table that lines up with the Bag of Holding numbers, I'm basically taking that as hard proof that Shrink Item was the real prerequisite all along. Otherwise it's just a mighty fine coincidence that this item that has a bogus prerequisite happens to already shadow an appropriate spell. (There's another coincidental permanency/item cost when you compare Teleportation Circle, Portals, and Create Crossroads, but I digress).

Yeah, I agree that a gallon is silly, but that's what the Starvation/Dehydration rules say, so we're stuck with it.


Interesting that the Travel Cloak only protects from cold, and it's 'as if affected' by Endure Elements and only while wearing it, where the Magic Bedroll just casts the (24hr base duration) spell on you, so you get it all day and also get protection from heat.

[schreier]

The travel cloak though was a 3.0 item with Endure elements (Cold). The 3.0 version (http://rpg20.com/spells.php?reptype=fullentry&valueid=150) required that you select a type of energy - which is why the cloak has "Cold" listed.

In the 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm), it protects from both hot and cold. As such, I just updated the travel cloak to reflect the change in spell, so it protects from both hot and cold now.

[Crichton]

The travel cloak though was a 3.0 item with Endure elements (Cold). The 3.0 version (http://rpg20.com/spells.php?reptype=fullentry&valueid=150) required that you select a type of energy - which is why the cloak has "Cold" listed.

In the 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm), it protects from both hot and cold. As such, I just updated the travel cloak to reflect the change in spell, so it protects from both hot and cold now.

Ah, interesting. Thanks! With that update, it's a very nice item, and competitively priced, despite not keeping your protection up when you 'tentify' it. That's kind of a secondary function anyway, I guess, and I'd assume the person inside the tent would still be protected from the elements.