[Spheres of Power] Advanced Magical Training + Magical Companion = ????

[Jack_Simth]

In Spheres of Power, the basic form of the Conjouration Sphere is a Companion (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc0), who gains feats and can be given Form talents. These companions potentially qualify for both Advanced Magical Training (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc0) and it's requirement, Basic Magical Training (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc8), which combine to give the companion a Spherecaster level equal to half it's hit dice. Then there's the form talent, Magical Companion (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc33), which also gives the companion a Spherecaster level equal to half it's hit dice (3/4ths, if the Mage Archetype (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc76) is also used).

How are these supposed to interact?

[noob]

Benefit: Treat your levels in non-casting classes as low-casting classes when determining your total caster level. If you do not possess levels in a casting class, increase your spell point pool to equal your casting ability modifier. With GM permission, you may also select a casting tradition when you gain this feat.
Arguably the hit dice of the companion might become "casting classes"

Or they do not and you have more than fullcasting on your companion and it ends up looking like a solar gate chain but with companions(converging toward mid level).

[Hellpyre]

Conjuration companions gain hit dice but not levels - Advanced Magical Training doesn't improve caster level for a Magical Companion at all.

The benefit it gives to a companion is really just the increased spell pool.

[stack]

A mage companion can't take basic magical training since they already have casting. Advanced magical training doesn't affect their CL at all since they can't have non-castjng levels (they have HD and all their HD count toward CL progression).

[Nizaris]

A creature who has Basic Magic Training and later gains sphere casting immediately retrains the feat to Extra Magic Talent.

Advanced Magic Talent
"Benefit: Treat your levels in non-casting classes as low-casting classes when determining your total caster level"

Since it doesn't have any levels in a non-casting class it would gain no benefit from this feat

[Kitsuneymg]

A mage companion can't take basic magical training since they already have casting. Advanced magical training doesn't affect their CL at all since they can't have non-castjng levels (they have HD and all their HD count toward CL progression).

Related question. Is this because the HD already count or because they are HD not class levels? I had assumed a stone giant incanter could get back to CR relevant CL with AMT. is that wrong?

[Mehangel]

Related question. Is this because the HD already count or because they are HD not class levels? I had assumed a stone giant incanter could get back to CR relevant CL with AMT. is that wrong?

RAW: It does not benefit from the feat because racial HD are not class levels.

RAI: It does not benefit from the feat because their racial HD already have a caster level progression.

-----

Regarding the stone giant incanter, RAW it wouldn't benefit from Advanced Magical Training (at least until USoP is released); However, Adam Meyers has stated that RAI racial HD may count as class levels for the purpose of the feat.

[Jack_Simth]

Or they do not and you have more than fullcasting on your companion and it ends up looking like a solar gate chain but with companions(converging toward mid level).Nah. Conjouration Sphere companions are expressly forbidden from having the conjuration sphere. So no, no chaining. If the combo worked, it wouldn't make the target trick possible, just more effective (access to advanced talents are gated based on caster level).

Play a Fey Adept (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/spheres-of-power-classes-class-options/fey-adept/).
Take the Permanent Image (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/advanced-magic/#Permanent_Image) advanced Talent (and it's requirements).
Take Spell Proxy (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/proxy-feats#toc7) (at 13th) and it's requirement, Circle Casting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/feats/#Circle_Casting) (at 11th) (plus the Enhancement Sphere, of course).
Use a point from the Fey Adept's Shadowstuff to create a Companion, paying the two spell points to make that illusion effect Permanent via Permanent Image. Make sure to give it the Mage archetype, so it has spell points and a "mid" caster level (13). Use all it's feats on various Sphere talents (except, perhaps, one on Extra Traits to pick up Gift of Magic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/traits#toc38) for a chosen sphere, so it can have a slightly higher caster level that's suitable for qualifying for advanced talents).
Have it apply Circle Casting to you. So you can now use it as a spell point battery, and you get access to all of it's talents. Talents you selected.
Use it's spell points and one of your own shadow points to make another permanent partially real companion. Build it the same way, but pick different talents.
Treat it the same way, too - use one of the first's spell points to give the second circle casting.
Order it the same way, too. Have it start using Circle Casting to boost you.
Rinse and repeat until you're out of Shadow Points.
All those fake Companions stick around (they're permanent), so you can repeat this the next day.
And the next.
And the next.

This gives you:
An arbitrarily large number of Sphere talents (any non-Conjouration talent that can be qualified for by your fake companions) to be used outside of battle.
A +5 Enhancement bonus to your spherecaster level for your buff routine.
Arbitrarily large numbers of fragile (but very customizable) minions.

Comes online at 13th.
The cost: Requires a specific class, two specific feats, and three of your Sphere Talent choices (of 15 at 13th level).
Edit: And a one-level dip into Incanter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/incanter) at 10th or 11th for the bonus feat could get it online at 11th, rather than 13th, although this does make the companions individually weaker (fewer free Form talents). Still, Form talents aren't really what we're after, are they? At 11th, that'd be 9 HD companions, CL 6 for most spheres, CL 8 for a chosen sphere via the Gift of Magic trait.

Getting the companions a higher spherecaster level serves to increase the number of Sphere Talents they can potentially posess. A 20th level Fey Adept makes a 15 HD Companion. A Mage Archetype Companion of 15 hit dice would have a Spherecaster level of 11 (13 for a chosen sphere, with Gift of Magic) for purposes of qualifying for things. A 13th level Fey Adept makes a 10 HD companion, and with Mage Companion Archetype could have a spherecaster level of 7 (9 for a chosen sphere with Gift of Magic) for purposes of qualifying for things. A lot of Advanced Talents require caster level 10 or 15 (a few, 17). Being able to add another half of the comanion's HD to those numbers would make Advanced Talents far more accessible.

[Hellpyre]

Play a Fey Adept (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/spheres-of-power-classes-class-options/fey-adept/).
Take the Permanent Image (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/advanced-magic/#Permanent_Image) advanced Talent (and it's requirements).
Take Spell Proxy (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/proxy-feats#toc7) (at 13th) and it's requirement, Circle Casting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/feats/#Circle_Casting) (at 11th) (plus the Enhancement Sphere, of course).
Use a point from the Fey Adept's Shadowstuff to create a Companion, paying the two spell points to make that illusion effect Permanent via Permanent Image. Make sure to give it the Mage archetype, so it has spell points and a "mid" caster level (13). Use all it's feats on various Sphere talents (except, perhaps, one on Extra Traits to pick up Gift of Magic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/traits#toc38) for a chosen sphere, so it can have a slightly higher caster level that's suitable for qualifying for advanced talents).
Have it apply Circle Casting to you. So you can now use it as a spell point battery, and you get access to all of it's talents. Talents you selected.
Use it's spell points and one of your own shadow points to make another permanent partially real companion. Build it the same way, but pick different talents.
Treat it the same way, too - use one of the first's spell points to give the second circle casting.
Order it the same way, too. Have it start using Circle Casting to boost you.
Rinse and repeat until you're out of Shadow Points.
All those fake Companions stick around (they're permanent), so you can repeat this the next day.
And the next.
And the next.

This gives you:
An arbitrarily large number of Sphere talents (any non-Conjouration talent that can be qualified for by your fake companions) to be used outside of battle.
A +5 Enhancement bonus to your spherecaster level for your buff routine.
Arbitrarily large numbers of fragile (but very customizable) minions.

Comes online at 13th.
The cost: Requires a specific class, two specific feats, and three of your Sphere Talent choices (of 15 at 13th level).

Getting the companions a higher spherecaster level serves to increase the number of Sphere Talents they can potentially posess. A 20th level Fey Adept makes a 15 HD Companion. A Mage Archetype Companion of 15 hit dice would have a Spherecaster level of 11 (13 for a chosen sphere, with Gift of Magic) for purposes of qualifying for things. A 13th level Fey Adept makes a 10 HD companion, and with Mage Companion Archetype could have a spherecaster level of 7 (9 for a chosen sphere with Gift of Magic) for purposes of qualifying for things. A lot of Advanced Talents require caster level 10 or 15 (a few, 17). Being able to add another half of the comanion's HD to those numbers would make Advanced Talents far more accessible.


This doesn't work because a mage companion doesn't actually qualify for Circle Casting, as it lacks the prerequisite class feature. Even though it can cast and has spell points, it doesn't have the Casting feature (which is also why it doesn't get two free talents).

[Jack_Simth]

This doesn't work because a mage companion doesn't actually qualify for Circle Casting, as it lacks the prerequisite class feature. Even though it can cast and has spell points, it doesn't have the Casting feature (which is also why it doesn't get two free talents).

Look up the Spell Proxy feat.

[Hellpyre]

Ah, fair enough. I entirely overlooked that. I stand corrected.