Any glaring flaws with this inventory system?

[danzibr]

Background: I'm making an RPG (have been for a few years, admittedly with a long hiatus in the middle). NES... quality? Perhaps not even that, I'm a novice when it comes to art and code. You make a party of 5 out of 10 available classes, each has their shtick. For combat, takes turns hitting each other. Going to have techniques at some point, magic at some point, toggleable skills at some point.

Also, I don't like consumable items in games. I never use them.

However, I do like stealing from mobs/getting loot.

Inventory: Divided by type (10 different weapons, 1 favored weapon per class; 3 types of armor; 3 types of helmets; loot; kits). Loot can either be sold or traded in for kits. Kits are... for example, you'll start with (and in fact are limited to) 1 minor medic kit per medic in your party. Each is usable once per battle, can select some effect like restoring HP or curing poison or something. Then kits of other classes have different effects, like chefs provided food for healz and buffs, assassins having kits for poisons and whatnot, entertainers, well, they might not have kits, but they buff/debuff.

For equipment, weapons give primarily physical attack and accuracy, armor physical and magical defense, helms also defense but other stats too. Ya got yet primary stats and derived stats, anything can give anything. Also elemental stuff (ties into plot, also), fire-enchanted bone saw, sure. Fire resistant helm, sure. Fire weak armor, sure.

Pretty standard RPG stuff, sans the no consumables (even then, I've played games like this, for example Cosmic Star Heroine). I have no reason to believe anything is terribly off, though I am prepared to be blasted.

[Erloas]

Some parts I'm not sure what exactly what you're trying to say.

As for the non-consumables, that basically sounds like skills or magic, which isn't bad. The biggest issue there is just finding the right balance. If you can use it too often it basically means healing/food/poison/etc is essentially unlimited, at which point the mechanic doesn't do much and should just be automatic. If you have too few uses it can be really easy to get stuck or making players very cautious.
I think consumables is just an easier way to balance from the developers standpoint, but I don't think it is necessary.

[Spore]

Pretty interesting to me, though you have to then strike a balance in your encounters that they don't require such a kit, but make the combat easier after a time (to incentivize using them). I recommend a slightly exponential value/drop rate so that it becomes easier to at very least build the bottom and medium tier kits for the latter half of the game.

Say the game has three acts.
Act 1: You find small potions needed for the kits occasionally.

Act 2: You find medium potions occasionally (counting as 3 small ones for the purpose of the kit) and small ones very consistently.

Act 3: You find large potions (counting as 9 small or 3 medium ones) occassionally, medium ones consistently and on rares occasions you find full status removal items.

Additionally I would recommend you make debuffs an interesting part of gameplay that is not easily removed i.e. not forcing your group to have a healer because debuffs are majorly annoying. Then you could make debuff removal VERY rare, but debuff PROTECTION should be in some kits incentivizing people to think ahead.

[danzibr]

Some parts I'm not sure what exactly what you're trying to say.

As for the non-consumables, that basically sounds like skills or magic, which isn't bad. The biggest issue there is just finding the right balance. If you can use it too often it basically means healing/food/poison/etc is essentially unlimited, at which point the mechanic doesn't do much and should just be automatic. If you have too few uses it can be really easy to get stuck or making players very cautious.
I think consumables is just an easier way to balance from the developers standpoint, but I don't think it is necessary.
My apologies for anything unclear. I was rather rushed.

Good points, good points. I’d considered these things, the too much v too little. My hope is for trash battles to require at least a little thought and resource expenditure, so to speak (there’s HP, kits, and AP), but allow people to go all out on bosses.

Pretty interesting to me, though you have to then strike a balance in your encounters that they don't require such a kit, but make the combat easier after a time (to incentivize using them). I recommend a slightly exponential value/drop rate so that it becomes easier to at very least build the bottom and medium tier kits for the latter half of the game.

Say the game has three acts.
Act 1: You find small potions needed for the kits occasionally.

Act 2: You find medium potions occasionally (counting as 3 small ones for the purpose of the kit) and small ones very consistently.

Act 3: You find large potions (counting as 9 small or 3 medium ones) occassionally, medium ones consistently and on rares occasions you find full status removal items.

Additionally I would recommend you make debuffs an interesting part of gameplay that is not easily removed i.e. not forcing your group to have a healer because debuffs are majorly annoying. Then you could make debuff removal VERY rare, but debuff PROTECTION should be in some kits incentivizing people to think ahead.
I like it! A lot. Thanks :)

As for debuffs, I plan on buffs/debuffs/status effects being an optional yet possibly key part of the game. Too often in games I find status effects can be ignored, either those inflicted on the party, or the party doing them. Then bosses are like immune to all status effects for some reason.

[Hunter Noventa]

As for debuffs, I plan on buffs/debuffs/status effects being an optional yet possibly key part of the game. Too often in games I find status effects can be ignored, either those inflicted on the party, or the party doing them. Then bosses are like immune to all status effects for some reason.

If you want to see games with good use of buffs/debuffs, I suggest Final Fantasy 5, Final Fantasy tactics, and some of the persona games. They all have a decent variety of buffs and debuffs, almost all of which have a good circumstance they can be used in.

FF5 in particular, is noteworthy for not having every boss immune to every status effect. Sometimes you have to use unique ways of applying them, but one of the optional superbosses can be hit with berserk and blind, making him practically trivial, if you know the system. But he can still be fought without that trick, its just harder.

Buffs/Debuffs should really play into system mastery. If you know how to use them, they do make the game easier, but they should never be a required tactic, save making sure you can remove them, or once in a while have a gimmick around having a certain debuff, like the Yunalesca fight in FFX.

[Spore]

One thing at least I tend to never do is waste a TURN on a healing item/consumable. It is always bad when it takes away a whole turn of combat relegating you to heal out of combat. So maybe give the players an item command and an attack/magic command for each turn. The kits could occupy the item command.

E.g.

Warrior, Priest, Mage and Assassin fight a Hydra.

Warrior uses defensive stance and goes for an autoattack.
Priest uses the Protect spell on the group and tosses a shield kit on the group.
The mage goes for a double cast plus Fireball to force out some damage.
The assassin uses a poison kit plus Ambush for critical damage, and a poison effect.

Each hydra head uses their specific AoE (acid breath reduces armor, fire breath means damage over time, lightning breath slow you/halves your ATP meter charge or makes you miss a turn via stun chance).

[spectralphoenix]

You should probably also refill health/mana after every fight (as in Cosmic Star Heroine and other Zeboyd games) so people don't wind up having to drag out easy combats to drink all their healing potions.

[danzibr]

If you want to see games with good use of buffs/debuffs, I suggest Final Fantasy 5, Final Fantasy tactics, and some of the persona games. They all have a decent variety of buffs and debuffs, almost all of which have a good circumstance they can be used in.

FF5 in particular, is noteworthy for not having every boss immune to every status effect. Sometimes you have to use unique ways of applying them, but one of the optional superbosses can be hit with berserk and blind, making him practically trivial, if you know the system. But he can still be fought without that trick, its just harder.

Buffs/Debuffs should really play into system mastery. If you know how to use them, they do make the game easier, but they should never be a required tactic, save making sure you can remove them, or once in a while have a gimmick around having a certain debuff, like the Yunalesca fight in FFX.
Oh yeah, and Omega being susceptible to Stop. FFV is the bomb.

Speaking of Yunalesca, I’m actually replaying FFX and she’s literally my next boss.

One thing at least I tend to never do is waste a TURN on a healing item/consumable. It is always bad when it takes away a whole turn of combat relegating you to heal out of combat. So maybe give the players an item command and an attack/magic command for each turn. The kits could occupy the item command.

E.g.

Warrior, Priest, Mage and Assassin fight a Hydra.

Warrior uses defensive stance and goes for an autoattack.
Priest uses the Protect spell on the group and tosses a shield kit on the group.
The mage goes for a double cast plus Fireball to force out some damage.
The assassin uses a poison kit plus Ambush for critical damage, and a poison effect.

Each hydra head uses their specific AoE (acid breath reduces armor, fire breath means damage over time, lightning breath slow you/halves your ATP meter charge or makes you miss a turn via stun chance).
Oh 2 actions at once... yeah that’s not happening. I like the idea though.

You should probably also refill health/mana after every fight (as in Cosmic Star Heroine and other Zeboyd games) so people don't wind up having to drag out easy combats to drink all their healing potions.
Yeah man/woman/human. Absolutely. I’m replaying FFX, rather annoying to open up the menu, go to abilities, select Yuna, select Cure, heal everyone up, close out. Such a waste of time, and she has so much MP it doesn’t matter.

So right, I agree. My only concern is... I want to have battles deplete resources. I suppose I could restore HP but not AP. Or could say screw it and let the party go in full power to boss battles.

The more I think about it, I’ll probably do the latter. While FF had consumables and you had to conserve your powerful dakka for a boss battle, and I view these with the nostalgia goggles, I really enjoyed Cosmic Star Heroine, and one of the very reasons was you didn’t have to mess around constantly healing out of battle and worrying about consumables.

[tyckspoon]

So right, I agree. My only concern is... I want to have battles deplete resources. I suppose I could restore HP but not AP. Or could say screw it and let the party go in full power to boss battles.

The more I think about it, I’ll probably do the latter. While FF had consumables and you had to conserve your powerful dakka for a boss battle, and I view these with the nostalgia goggles, I really enjoyed Cosmic Star Heroine, and one of the very reasons was you didn’t have to mess around constantly healing out of battle and worrying about consumables.

One of the nice things this lets you do is have your random battles actually be threatening. A lot of the time with the Final Fantasy/consumable-based recovery style it's not so much that you really have to conserve your best stuff for the boss so much as there just isn't much reason to use your best/most expensive stuff on the random fights. You beat them with auto attack and then use a few cheap-as-free potions or low-level efficient healing spells after to top back up and end up not experiencing any significant resource drain (or, if you happen to have effects like Osmose to steal MP/HP from your enemies or a super-meter that you can fill up by engaging in pointless fights, they actually *give* you resources that you then unload on the boss. I cleared a lot of FFX by just charging up all the summons Overdrives and chain-blasting bosses.)

[Glimbur]

This reminds me a lot of really old rpg's where you could buy skills and items and such. It looks like a cool idea, have things that are per-encounter and things that are at will. Do you take a shield or a healing kit? Do you pack another fireball spell or a protect spell? 10 might be too many slots, 4 or 5 would make tough choices: sword, shield, armor, overhead smash, and shield ally. But then you don't get a healing potion or the enchanted cloak or...

And then you fight a bull with a bull rush attack which really messes up your party so you take it when you defeat it. And then bosses have an ability to refresh their per encounter abilities and you have a hard decision to make there and...

It's a cool idea and seems like a simple basis you can build cool things from.

[Amechra]

As an aside, I think a good game to look at for buffs/debuffs is Halcyon Six - there, attacks would usually have a chance to inflict a condition... but then there'd be attacks that exploited conditions to give you a critical hit, which would remove the condition in question. It adds a bit of resource management that you can more-or-less ignore if you don't want to mess with it.

---

I think the bigger issue here is that consumables actually do serve a role in setting the game's pace - if you don't fully recover between fights, you're fundamentally limited in how far you can go between safe zones, a distance consumables let you extend. Similarly, consumables carrying over over fights lets you control when you use them - you might want no Revives in one fight and three in a different one. Kits don't fulfill either of those roles, since they're essentially 1/fight skills (which gets into other potential questions concerning novas and other such fun things).

The issue they do fix is that consumables tend to be boring trash, since they usually fill a very basic role that a specific character handles much better. I can practically guarantee that you'd use consumables if they gave you something you couldn't normally get. Potions with a party medic are kinda useless, potions without a party medic are precious.

That leads me to another possibility - what if you treated consumables as another resource when designing abilities? For example...

1) Potions by themselves give you a small heal. If you don't have a Medic in your party, they are your primary source of healing.
2) Medics can buff the party a bit, protect from debuffs, and hand out a small heal. However, if you have potions on hand, Medic abilities can consume them to also hand out healing.

In both #1 and #2, potions are a cool thing to find - either they mean that you actually have healing now (yay!), or they make your Medic more effective (also yay!).


One of the nice things this lets you do is have your random battles actually be threatening. A lot of the time with the Final Fantasy/consumable-based recovery style it's not so much that you really have to conserve your best stuff for the boss so much as there just isn't much reason to use your best/most expensive stuff on the random fights. You beat them with auto attack and then use a few cheap-as-free potions or low-level efficient healing spells after to top back up and end up not experiencing any significant resource drain (or, if you happen to have effects like Osmose to steal MP/HP from your enemies or a super-meter that you can fill up by engaging in pointless fights, they actually *give* you resources that you then unload on the boss. I cleared a lot of FFX by just charging up all the summons Overdrives and chain-blasting bosses.)

I think whether or not this is nice is a personal preference thing - I hate RPGs that make random battles cheap/free resource-wise, because then they're even more of a waste of my time. I'm not here to play Goblin Exterminator, I'm here to get to the end of the dungeon so that I can find the antidote for my sick little sister¹, damn it!

¹ It's always sisters. Apparently sick little brothers aren't good enough for RPGs.

[Vinyadan]

I only have some very general advice for inventories in videogames from my experience as a player. Maybe some can be useful.

First, let me click on a body slot to see all that I can fit to that slot.

Second, let me see a preview of changes in the stats of my character by mouseover on an inventory piece.

Third, add a search-by-text function (assuming it is used with peripherals that would take advantage of it).

Fourth, if you you can swap equipment "for free" (instantaneously and without penalties), then it makes sense to allow the memorization of outfits made of items for different slots that you can swap in just one move (essentially favourite groups).

Fifth, making a conscious decision of whether consumables should be limited by quantity available in the world or by inventory limits.

Sixth, categories and subcategories. It really depends on how the inventory looks (old PC games had minuscule icons, so you could see all of your potions in one go, colour and dimension coded; but modern games made for consoles have large icons, so you have to scroll and search). For example:

Weapons

Melee/Ranged
One-handed/Two-handed
Crushing/Piercing/Slashing
Weapon school (sword/axe/etc.)
Damage
Speed
Enchantment
Price


Then it's useful to be able to set weapons in order based on a few of these. Let's assume that the top of the inventory has buttons with these different subcategories. I "pin" weapon school as main determiner. Then I click on enchantment. Now I see my weapons still divided by weapon school, and, within the school, they are ordered by enchantment.

For example:


A hatchet of contempt
A greataxe of contempt
A hatchet of frost


A greatsword A claymore of fire
A longsword of fire. A claymore of frost
A longsword of frost
A greatsword of the sun


A spear
A halberd of happiness A spear of happiness
A halberd of sadness


This isn't that important with weapons because you likely won't have too many of them (although it definitely would help when shopping), but it can be a life-saver with consumables.

Let's say that potions are divided by these:

Main type: restoration/buff/aggression
More precise type: heal wounds, cure poison/sickness, restore attribute... | raise HP/skill/attribute/armour | poison, decrease HP/attribute...
Power.


If you let the alphabet handle it, assuming you have weak-medium-strong progression, the potions will show up grouped by strength, instead of by effect.

[danzibr]

[...]
Absolutely!

And not only threatening, but you can get the enjoyment out of using those sweet abilities on more than just bosses.

And I forgot to mention something earlier. Something kind of crucial to my game. Techniques (and maaaaaaaybe magic, but atm I'm inclined to have it only be techniques) are going to be on a warm-up/cool-down system. Like Xenoblade (or other games). But it doesn't cost AP/MP/mana/whatever. Random battles likely won't last long enough to see your super flashy techs.

[...]
Thanks!

But uhh, I didn't follow the 10-slots bit. Did you just toss that number out there? My only 10 comes from the fact that there are 10 classes total (thus 10 different types of weapons, but anyone can use them, just don't get the proficiency bonus).

[...]
Thanks! For things to consider, that is. But I'm still opposed to consumables.

However, that footnote of yours makes me inclined to include a sick little brother :P

[...]
Some of these I'm implementing (1, 2, 5, kinda 6), others not (3, 4, kinda 6). For one thing there'll be no typing, makes it hard to search. Could select from a menu, but then again, there shouldn't be that much gear to sift through. Thinking back to the old RPGs I played, I never had an issue with there being no search feature.

All inventory is auto-sorted (in fact, just finished this). By category, then within the category, chronologically.

[Amechra]

Thanks! For things to consider, that is. But I'm still opposed to consumables.

However, that footnote of yours makes me inclined to include a sick little brother :P

Fair enough - that did turn into "if I were making the game..." near the end.

Out of curiosity, how does the "there are ten classes - pick five to adventure with" thing work? Can you swap out classes mid-adventure (stop off at a guild, drop someone off, pick someone else up), or are you locked into one selection? Is each class represented by a single character, or could you run around with a team of five Medics if you really wanted to?

[danzibr]

Fair enough - that did turn into "if I were making the game..." near the end.

Out of curiosity, how does the "there are ten classes - pick five to adventure with" thing work? Can you swap out classes mid-adventure (stop off at a guild, drop someone off, pick someone else up), or are you locked into one selection? Is each class represented by a single character, or could you run around with a team of five Medics if you really wanted to?
Third option. Ever play the original Final Fantasy? Or the recent indie Artifact Adventure? Just like those.

[Amechra]

Third option. Ever play the original Final Fantasy? Or the recent indie Artifact Adventure? Just like those.

I have played the original Final Fantasy - which actually brings up my next question: how did you settle on five characters/ten classes? That's quite a large set of options to balance.

[danzibr]

I have played the original Final Fantasy - which actually brings up my next question: how did you settle on five characters/ten classes? That's quite a large set of options to balance.
I particularly wanted a party of 5. 3 is definitely too few, 4... could've gone 4, but I wanted more.

As for 10 classes... on the one hand, I just made classes to fit niches until I ran out. On the other hand, there's going to be a competing party of adventurers of different classes. This way even if the player chooses all different classes, the opposing party can be completely different.

[Amechra]

I particularly wanted a party of 5. 3 is definitely too few, 4... could've gone 4, but I wanted more.

As for 10 classes... on the one hand, I just made classes to fit niches until I ran out. On the other hand, there's going to be a competing party of adventurers of different classes. This way even if the player chooses all different classes, the opposing party can be completely different.

Ah, good to know. I was mostly wondering because that seems like a wide space to try to balance. When you say niche, are they non-overlapping? Like, for example, are Medics the only class that can heal? Because if so, the fact that people will only have access to half of the niches at most within a given party scares me.

My main concern is that your game will require a fair amount of system mastery to actually start. Final Fantasy 1 has six classes, but they're very much designed to overlap - if you pick your classes at random, you're very likely to have at least one character who can (for example) heal (there's an 80.25% chance your party will have at least one White magic user, which goes up to 93.75% once you get your class upgrades¹). If I sat down to your game and picked classes for my character at random, how screwed would I be?

¹ The same math applies to Black magic users, and is slightly better for "people who are good at hitting things", which are the only real niches Final Fantasy 1 has.

[danzibr]

Ah, good to know. I was mostly wondering because that seems like a wide space to try to balance. When you say niche, are they non-overlapping? Like, for example, are Medics the only class that can heal? Because if so, the fact that people will only have access to half of the niches at most within a given party scares me.

My main concern is that your game will require a fair amount of system mastery to actually start. Final Fantasy 1 has six classes, but they're very much designed to overlap - if you pick your classes at random, you're very likely to have at least one character who can (for example) heal (there's an 80.25% chance your party will have at least one White magic user, which goes up to 93.75% once you get your class upgrades¹). If I sat down to your game and picked classes for my character at random, how screwed would I be?

¹ The same math applies to Black magic users, and is slightly better for "people who are good at hitting things", which are the only real niches Final Fantasy 1 has.
Ahh, legitimate concern.

Each class is listed with a primary and secondary... talent. Medic primary is heal, others have that as secondary.

Plus you shouldn’t always have to heal. Use a chef to increase your defense. Use an entertainer to lower the enemy’s attack or accuracy.

The goal is to have the game playable with pretty much any party of 5 with any semblance of diversity.

[Amechra]

Ahh, legitimate concern.

Each class is listed with a primary and secondary... talent. Medic primary is heal, others have that as secondary.

Plus you shouldn’t always have to heal. Use a chef to increase your defense. Use an entertainer to lower the enemy’s attack or accuracy.

The goal is to have the game playable with pretty much any party of 5 with any semblance of diversity.

Out of curiosity, what are your classes? And when you list the classes' talents, do you go into any detail about what they do? Because "Chefs increase your defenses" does not seem immediately obvious in the way that "Medics heal people" is.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, when you say "don't need to heal", are you including stuff like removing debuffs or rezzing dead party members? Because those are two things that I expect as part of the "healer" role, and I'd get a bit of a shock if I picked up a healer and learned that they only ever fixed HP damage.

[danzibr]

Man, thanks for the interest! I’m quite surprised.

First, forgot to mention, the magic you get (independent of class) will also help fill roles.

And yes, healing will include the usual healing things, not just hp damage.

The classes are assassin, brawler, chef, engineer, entertainer, farmer, hunter, jumper, medic, rager.

[Anonymouswizard]

The classes are assassin, brawler, chef, engineer, entertainer, farmer, hunter, jumper, medic, rager.

But what do they do? Do jumpers turn the game into Mario? I assume not, but without know what their primary/secondary focuses are it might as well be the case.

[danzibr]

But what do they do? Do jumpers turn the game into Mario? I assume not, but without know what their primary/secondary focuses are it might as well be the case.
Right-o.

Here’s what varies per class: stat growth, weapon proficiency, armor use, techniques, skills (passives), favored magic.

As for the particular classes, I’ll leave that a surprise.

[Amechra]

Right-o.

Here’s what varies per class: stat growth, weapon proficiency, armor use, techniques, skills (passives), favored magic.

As for the particular classes, I’ll leave that a surprise.

I mean, we legitimately can't give you more advice if you leave it as a "surprise".

A lot of my questions are skirting around the fact that I think you're biting off more than you can chew. Now, that's not exactly fair of me - for all I know, you have all kinds of experience with this and are brilliant at balancing things.

But, like, I'm guessing that the Jumper is basically a Final Fantasy Dragoon - you hit hard, and you can "skip" turns to hit harder. The thing is, what the heck does a Chef or Farmer do in an adventuring party? How are you signposting what they do? Do you have out-of-combat systems that they focus on? Or from a different direction - how do you meaningfully distinguish a Brawler (weapon-using character that hits hard) and a Rager (weapon-using character that hits hard)? I'm not talking the numbers - if you sat me down with two different parties, one with a Brawler and one with a Rager... would that affect my overall strategy in fights? Or are the two interchangeable?

What are the niches you're expecting characters to fill? Are they all equally vital, or could you fold them into fewer niches?

[danzibr]

Fair enough. However, the thread was about the inventory system, which I believe has been suitably addressed.