Cloak of Protection

[Sparhafoc]

My group is all new to D&D - this is our first game.

We're all level 3 and just found our first decent magical item.

Naturally, no one agrees who should receive it! :smallsmile:

So I thought I might survey this forum to see which party member they think would benefit most - if possible give some reasoning why to help our party understand the game better.

Our party is:

An eldritch blast Warlock with 18 AC

A Conquest Paladin with 19AC

A Revived Rogue using mostly bows with 15AC

A Moon Druid - the DM's already said she can't gain benefit from the cloak when shifted, and she'd feel ridiculous as a direwolf in a cloak anyway, so she's decided to pass.


Cheers

[BarneyBent]

I vote Paladin. They’re on the front line, and have healing abilities. An extra point of AC is worth more to the entire party.

[Belthien]

Definitely paladin, they should be the only one of those 3 on the front line regularly getting hit. Also, a general rule of thumb is that any item that boosts AC is most valuable to the highest AC party member.

[Mordaedil]

I'd say the warlock and druid are definitely fine as they are. Unless the warlock is volunteering for frontlining, he shouldn't get the cloak.

The paladin is a strong contender, especially since the rogue is a bow user, not a dagger/shortsword user. The rogue having lowest AC, would be a markedly nice upgrade for him, however.

[Anymage]

There's also the part where each point of AC matters more the more points you have. In extreme cases, and ignoring crits for convenience, someone who goes from being hit on a 1+ to being hit on a 2+ only mitigates 5% of the hits that come their way. Someone who goes from being hit on a 19+ to only being hit on a 20 will halve their damage intake.

Add in the simple fact that frontliners will take more hits by the nature of their work, and this is another vote for the paladin.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Definitely paladin, they should be the only one of those 3 on the front line regularly getting hit. Also, a general rule of thumb is that any item that boosts AC is most valuable to the highest AC party member.

Unless he have more AC then the enemies max attack value.
But it looks like Sparhafoc party is far from this.

[Contrast]

Everyone has focused on the AC but its worth pointing out the cloak also boosts saves which helps with things like maintaining concentration.

Of course this is still probably an argument for the paladin as they are probably the one taking the most hits and therefore making the most concentration saves (assuming they actually cast any spells which depending on playstyle they may not). I have a bard with a cloak of protection and luckstone and the combination of the two really helps to the point I don't know if there's every likely to be an item I would unattune them for realistically speaking.


Broadly I agree paladin.

[Nidgit]

I don't know that Paladin is the best option. A higher AC on the Paladin will just make that squishy Beastshaped Moon Druid look all the more inviting for attacking. And the Paladin will have consistently high saves once Level 6 rolls around.

I'd instead consider giving it to the Warlock. They'll benefit from casting disruptive spells while a little less impeded.

[Keravath]

The cloak is beneficial for anyone ... which is why your party is having this discussion.

However, from a party perspective, I'd agree with the paladin being the best choice in this case.

The warlock and the rogue are ranged characters and will try to stay back from melee. The warlock already has a decent AC. The moon druid will usually melee in beast form or typically stand back as a caster. The cloak won't help the druid when wild shaped.

The paladin is a melee character, they will constantly be exposed to attacks, a higher AC is useful. The paladin might also typically cast bless or other spells requiring concentration. The cloak will also benefit this aspect of supporting the team.

The paladin will get their Aura of Protection at level 6 which will boost saving throws within 10' but even then the cloak might still be most useful to the party when worn by the paladin.

So .. paladin is my first choice. :)

P.S. If I had to name a second choice it would probably be the rogue since their AC needs a boost, they lack proficiency in both wis and con saves, and at level 6 they are likely to be outside of the paladin's aura in combat. However, paladin is the first choice by a significant margin from a party perspective in my opinion.

[Contrast]

A higher AC on the Paladin will just make that squishy Beastshaped Moon Druid look all the more inviting for attacking. And the Paladin will have consistently high saves once Level 6 rolls around.

Just to say from my point of view these are both reasons to give it to the paladin.

People attacking a wildshaped moon druid are doing damage that, in the long run, does nothing. A large part of what a moon druid brings with their wildshapes is hit points to soak up damage that would otherwise be directed at the rest of the party.

By level 6 depending on stats this paladin might have +6 to con saves (maybe +d4 with bless). They kinda need that or more to have any chance of maintaining concentration if they're wading into melee.

[Demonslayer666]

The only time a certain class should get the item is when they are the only one that can use it effectively. A Cloak of Protection is useful for everyone.

"Tanking" rarely happens in our games. Quite frequently, there is an enemy or two on each person, or all are getting attacked. I would agree that the paladin would likely get attacked more often than the rest because he always engages and the rest prefer to stay at range. But I think it's only a slight difference and the pally already has a good AC, plus they can easily increase their AC by buying better armor, where the other classes are usually maxed until they get magic items.

As a DM, I would allow a cloak of protection to be used in wild shape as long as the form had a neck.

I always encourage my players to roleplay loot distribution out, and I don't get involved unless there is a conflict that needs to be resolved. Anyone that wants the cloak should have a chance at it. If they have trouble with distributing loot, then have everyone that wants it to roll a D20 and the highest one gets it.

[ad_hoc]

The party is only as strong as its weakest link.

Give it to the Rogue.

It doesn't matter if the high AC character is left alive if everyone else is dead.

[Wildarm]

The party is only as strong as its weakest link.

Give it to the Rogue.

It doesn't matter if the high AC character is left alive if everyone else is dead.

Rogue(if they play smart) will rarely be targeted. Revived wants to sit 30' away anyway. You don't want to be in melee when you trigger your bonus action sneak attack with a disengage cunning action. Now, if your DM tends to throw a lot of traps and ambushes that you need to scout for, Rogue may be a better choice. He might be facing more attacks and saves than normal in that case when scouting ahead for danger.

For in combat though, you want your Paladin(particularly a conquest paladin) to have that cloak. They will draw a lot of attacks with their aura at level 7. Even at level 3 his Channel Divinity is very good at preventing enemies from engaging your back line in melee. You don't want him to go down early in a fight due to enemies focusing fire.

[LudicSavant]

The first thing you should understand is that AC (and saves) have non-linear returns. Rather like so: https://i.postimg.cc/MTvcMjvC/Arcane-Trickster5save-HP.png This curve is even more pronounced when accounting for factors like the ability to grant enemies Disadvantage to hit. (Note: This graph leaves out crits because how much they affect the curve is monster-specific, and thus cannot be generalized).

Giving a +1 AC to someone with a very low AC makes almost no difference to their survivability (e.g. so little that it will often take the same number of attacks to kill them), while giving it to a person who is already difficult to hit can make them much harder to kill. If that character is good at leveraging their durability, this can in turn lead to other players taking less damage (for example, safely commanding a more advantageous position on the map, or taking less resources to protect them that could be spent on other PCs more efficiently than a +1 AC could). Here's an example of what I mean by "leveraging your durability" http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24109520&postcount=49.

So the "always give it to the weakest link" position, while it may seem intuitive, is not necessarily optimal... even from the perspective of keeping that "weakest link" PC alive. Mind, the opposite oversimplified argument (always give it to whoever has the highest AC) is also false, because you get diminishing returns from durability beyond the point where it's already best for enemies to pay whatever it costs to get around you and target the more slippery members of the team. It's a more nuanced tactical balancing act than either of those "always" arguments.

[Bobthewizard]

I think you should give it to the warlock. They are most likely to use a concentration spell and so the downside of them taking a non-lethal hit is higher than it is for any of the other characters.

The druid will also be a good candidate for it at levels when they are primarily casting. But for now they will be most valuable wildshaped.

[ad_hoc]

I think you should give it to the warlock. They are most likely to use a concentration spell and so the downside of them taking a non-lethal hit is higher than it is for any of the other characters.

The druid will also be a good candidate for it at levels when they are primarily casting. But for now they will be most valuable wildshaped.

Yeah, Warlock is a good choice too.

The Rogue has Uncanny Dodge to save themselves too.

[Sparhafoc]

Thanks all for the suggestions.


There's also the part where each point of AC matters more the more points you have. In extreme cases, and ignoring crits for convenience, someone who goes from being hit on a 1+ to being hit on a 2+ only mitigates 5% of the hits that come their way. Someone who goes from being hit on a 19+ to only being hit on a 20 will halve their damage intake.

Add in the simple fact that frontliners will take more hits by the nature of their work, and this is another vote for the paladin.

To me, this really sums up what I would consider the most reasonable approach.

First of all, the value of that AC and save comes down to how often it's checked.

Secondly, AC works in a way that is not readily understood, I think, by common sense or new players, and that adding 1 to high AC that's not yet surpassing the attack potential of the monsters you're facing is worth a lot more than adding 1 to low AC.




Giving a +1 AC to someone with a very low AC makes almost no difference to their survivability (e.g. so little that it will often take the same number of attacks to kill them), while giving it to a person who is already difficult to hit can make them much harder to kill. If that character is good at leveraging their durability, this can in turn lead to other players taking less damage (for example, safely commanding a more advantageous position on the map, or taking less resources to protect them that could be spent on other PCs more efficiently than a +1 AC could). Here's an example of what I mean by "leveraging your durability" *snip link*.

So the "always give it to the weakest link" position, while it may seem intuitive, is not necessarily optimal... even from the perspective of keeping that "weakest link" PC alive. Mind, the opposite oversimplified argument (always give it to whoever has the highest AC) is also false, because you get diminishing returns from durability beyond the point where it's already best for enemies to pay whatever it costs to get around you and target the more slippery members of the team. It's a more nuanced tactical balancing act than either of those "always" arguments.

Yep, this is pretty much what my reading up had come to show. While it's not 'always' because it depends on what you're facing, it's still a better rule of thumb that higher numbers are better than slightly bumping a lower number.





I'd instead consider giving it to the Warlock. They'll benefit from casting disruptive spells while a little less impeded.

This is not something I quite so easily grasp as the Warlock basically never gets hit being far behind the front line and already having more AC than anyone except the paladin. Last level we faced a Displacer Beast which out-maneuvered the paladin and druid and got into the back line, but literally walked right past the warlock to go for the rogue and a visiting ranger.

For me, the warlock's the last party member to give it to.




The party is only as strong as its weakest link.

Give it to the Rogue.

It doesn't matter if the high AC character is left alive if everyone else is dead.


Ok, but if the rogue goes down, the Paladin can bring them straight back up again. If the Paladin goes down, the rogue has to hope to kill everything left. I would say the weakest link there is the ability to get someone back on their feet.



I think you should give it to the warlock. They are most likely to use a concentration spell and so the downside of them taking a non-lethal hit is higher than it is for any of the other characters.

Actually, I don't think they are. Perhaps the curse of the hexblade (or whatever the name is?) but aside from that, at level 3, they've only got 2 spells and he's mostly using Eldritch Blast cantrip.

I really wasn't expecting anyone to say Warlock at all. He's always ranged, has an AC of 18 at level 3, and barely ever gets hit, so the value of the cloak would very rarely come into play.


Thanks all for your suggestions.

[Arkhios]

Honestly, when all players want the same item and no one agrees for another, players should roll in front of DM for "need" (d% roll, highest wins).

It's entirely fair, as you really can't affect how the dice land, especially when rolling two dice at once.

[Sparhafoc]

Honestly, when all players want the same item and no one agrees for another, players should roll in front of DM for "need" (d% roll, highest wins).

It's entirely fair, as you really can't affect how the dice land, especially when rolling two dice at once.


I've already suggested we do that; this thread is as much about learning mechanics and game features as deciding on who should get the item when just rolling for it's always an option.

This find has actually been quite good as a learning experience as before posting this thread, I went off and read up a lot more about AC and experimented with a hit calculator, and even though I'd had a hunch that high AC actually got more benefit from +1AC than lower armor classes, I was surprised to find out how powerful it could be over the course of many attacks.

My personal vote initially had been to give it to the Moon Druid, but then the DM chimed in that she wouldn't gain any benefit from it in forms. But after that, the next most valuable choice as far as I could tell was the Paladin, and it wasn't even a contest. But as I am playing the Paladin, I didn't want to leap on the first decent magical item that came into our hands and admittedly I expected everyone to immediately say 'give it to the tank'. However, it seemed like the others weren't even considering the Paladin at all, which just seemed odd to me, so I asked for it too!

I think the party has largely grasped the value of AC on my character now, but as the 2nd place vote is still for the rogue (and it got a few nods here too) - if they give me the cloak, I might offer to roll on it with the rogue (minus his lucky halfling & luckstone shenanigans :smallwink:).

[Terdarius]

In my opinion players should play/build their character to their strengths and not their weaknesses.

If you play to your strengths everyone has one specific thing they're awesome at, and the party as a whole will be awesome at most things.

If you play to your weaknesses everyone will be mediocre at everything, and the party as a whole will be mediocre.

So give it to the paladin, he should be the 'tank' with the highest AC.

[ad_hoc]

This is not something I quite so easily grasp as the Warlock basically never gets hit being far behind the front line and already having more AC than anyone except the paladin. Last level we faced a Displacer Beast which out-maneuvered the paladin and druid and got into the back line, but literally walked right past the warlock to go for the rogue and a visiting ranger.

For me, the warlock's the last party member to give it to.



If the party is so easily able to dictate combat like this then it doesn't matter who gets the item as the party will continue to stomp all over their enemies.


Ok, but if the rogue goes down, the Paladin can bring them straight back up again. If the Paladin goes down, the rogue has to hope to kill everything left. I would say the weakest link there is the ability to get someone back on their feet.


All the Rogue needs is 50gp for a healing potion to do the same thing.

It's super easy to kill off a character when they are at 0. Sitting at a few HP means just 1 more hit to go down again too.

Using an action to revive someone is a huge cost too. It means you aren't closer to winning and in a tough battle where it counts there will likely be many enemies who can take down the ally again for less relative action cost.

Death spirals are a thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

And the Paladin will have consistently high saves once Level 6 rolls around. They need to make the decision at level 3. (They can re evaluate at level 6, of course).


I'd instead consider giving it to the Warlock. They'll benefit from casting disruptive spells while a little less impeded. Presuming the Warlock is casting concentration spells, I agree.