Warforged Monk

[3drinks]

So having recently come across the Warforged (which is great), I've started thinking about ways to make this beast work. When it donned on me that it's natural slam attack could flurry, monk seemed the obvious choice, though slight bump to Wis aside. It's got feats that enhance it's composite plating which can get around the monk not having armour prof right?

Then I read further about enchanting your body, and the feats that can make you adamantine. Fantastic.

Now, the last big question that goes with all monk builds, and I'm sure you know where I'm going. Speaking from a RAW point of view, why wouldn't I add Vow of Poverty to this build? I'm not carrying any gear, my "armour" is just my skin, can't really shed that. From a RAI perspective, clearly there's legitimacy issues to getting a DM to let this happen. But RAW is RAW, that's the question - is this a genuine, viable path to pursue with documentation to back up it's validity?

[Gauntlet]

The rules text for Adamantine Body includes the line "you are considered to be wearing heavy armor".

This makes putting it on a monk rather difficult.

[nedz]

The rules text for Adamantine Body includes the line "you are considered to be wearing heavy armor".

This makes putting it on a monk rather difficult.

This is why you take the Unarmored Body feat (Races of Eberron p120).

...

Also, Slam attacks are not Unarmed attacks so that doesn't work.

I'll let someone else wail on Monks but the Wis penalty hurts a little.

Artificer is the go to class here.

[schreier]

You don't need to take unarmored ... You're fine with the regular plating as a monk actually

[Celestia]

You don't need to take unarmored ... You're fine with the regular plating as a monk actually
Correct. The default composite plating works with every class and every restriction. The only ones who actually need to take unarmored body are arcane casters who don't want to deal with the 5% spell failure. That said, the body feats do count as armor of the appropriate type, so druids can't take mythril or adamantine, and monks can't take any, for example.

[3drinks]

Ok, so the body feats don't work. Why are slam attacks not valid with monk flurry? Iirc they allow natural attacks but it's been quite some time since I've looked at that.

What about getting someone to enchant your body, even under the VoP? You're not technically carrying any equipment worth more than 1gp, so by my reading of it, this isn't any different than an ally casting a spell on you. Which is legal under VoP.

[TerrickTerran]

because they never want Monks to have anything nice......might accidentally make them more playable. Heaven forbid something be decent and not a full caster after all.

Slam attacks not being unarmed attacks is just one of those strange rulings that litter the game.

[Celestia]

Ok, so the body feats don't work. Why are slam attacks not valid with monk flurry? Iirc they allow natural attacks but it's been quite some time since I've looked at that.

What about getting someone to enchant your body, even under the VoP? You're not technically carrying any equipment worth more than 1gp, so by my reading of it, this isn't any different than an ally casting a spell on you. Which is legal under VoP.
By RAW, none of the warforged plating works with VoP as it's not on the explicit list of allowed items. By RAI, the plating should be fine, but enchantments still aren't kosher any more than grafts or paying for wished ability bonuses are.

[Telonius]

To elaborate on that a little: a "Slam" attack is an attack made with some sort of appendage; but it counts as a Natural Attack. It has its own rules for damage (and whether or not you add strength, half strength, or whatever, to it). If you have a creature with natural attacks who's also a Monk? Then yes, you can make an attack with that appendage as part of a flurry, since it's part of your body. But it's no longer a Slam attack. It's a regular Unarmed Strike, and uses the Unarmed Strike's rules about what to add to it.

To take another example: say a Young Adult Blue Dragon took a level in Monk. It's a Large Dragon, so it would usually get a Tail Slap that has damage of 1d8+(1.5*Str). If the Dragon wanted to use his tail as part of a flurry? Yeah, he could absolutely do that. But he'd only be getting 1d8+Strength to damage if he did, since it's then an Unarmed Strike and not a Tail Slap.

[Drackstin]

So i played a Unarmed paladin warfored, i used its natural slam for its attack, not needing unarmed strike. when your large, slams can be used with each arm, so you get 2 attacks, and they get 1.5 Str to damage each. if you do play monk, you can add natural attacks onto your full round action so you can do your flurry and add your slam on after at -5, warforged can also get a biting jaw, somewhere in the item section, you can even get a gore helmet, then just do all kinds of natural attacks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take the Beast Strike feat to add all of your slam damage (and claw damage, if you can swing it) to your unarmed strikes. Snap Kick gives you an extra unarmed strike (and thus, slam) any time you make an attack.

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) uses a warforged monk to good effect. Throwing yourself bodily through enemies, making them burst open like a cross between the Kool-Aid Man and Gallagher's Sledge-o-Matic? OH YEAH!

Also, if you want to focus on AoOs instead of flurries, double-damage on your attacks via the Decisive Strike ACF + Snap Kick + Double Hit means you get three attacks per AoO (or possibly four, depending on how Snap Kick combines with Double Hit), each at double damage. Combine with the war hulk's mighty swing or the war mind's sweeping strike (which also adds some much-needed manifesting to your monk) to attack multiple creatures with each AoO.

[Rijan_Sai]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9823824) is also a rather fun "monk" build, based on "Jackie Chan-style" fighting with whatever is at hand! (Or in this case, whatever your hand is :smallbiggrin:)

I built a version of this for fun once; haven't got the chance to play him, yet...
Monk 2/Incarnate 2/ToJ 4/DM 4/ToJ 9/Warshaper 3//Artificer 20
The Incarnate levels were primarily for the Mage’s Spectacles soulmeld, for the boost to UMD for the Artificer side. That and Incarnum is one of my favorite sub-systems!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take the Beast Strike feat to add all of your slam damage (and claw damage, if you can swing it) to your unarmed strikes. Snap Kick gives you an extra unarmed strike (and thus, slam) any time you make an attack.The writing on Beast Strike doesn't specify "base damage," so it could be argued that you add all of your slam and claw damage to your unarmed strikes, and since those add your Str modifier + other damage modifiers (including magic enhancements), that means you could double- or even triple-up on your bonus damage. Adding flaming, thundering, and frost to your slam, claw, and unarmed damage adds +9d6 to your unarmed strike, and that's not even including things like Power Attack bonuses, which skyrocket pretty damned fast when further multipliers are involved. A dip in dungeon crasher fighter? Spirited Charge? Decisive Strike? The manyfang enhancement? All of those add multipliers to your damage, and if you consider that Beast Strike takes all of that damage from three different sources and adds it all together, you become a hard-hitter really fast.

[3drinks]

By RAW, none of the warforged plating works with VoP as it's not on the explicit list of allowed items. By RAI, the plating should be fine, but enchantments still aren't kosher any more than grafts or paying for wished ability bonuses are.

This is what I was looking for. Thank you. Can't say I hadn't expected as much, but I'm not entirely surprised I can't claim RAW on it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Warforged plating is part of the warforged's body, including whatever feat he (or she) takes to improve it. It's not an item; it's not even an implanted graft. If you took Dragonwrought on a kobold, along with Dragon Wings, do you have to have to amputate your wings because you got them with a feat?

Warforged plating (even enhanced) is entirely usable with VoP, since it's not an item. And don't forget, as long as you donate "most" of your WBL (at least 1 cp above 50%), the rest can be used in other ways. Give to the group, have the group's casters use it to magically upgrade your body (unarmed strikes, claws, slams, plating, etc).

[Maat Mons]

I mean, a Warforged with Adamantine Body can take Monk levels.

He won't gain any benefit from the Unarmored AC Bonus. But since Adamantine body provides its own AC bonus, he might still wind up with a better AC than some normal Monks.

He won't be able to use Flurry of Blows. But he can trade that for the Decisive Strike ACF, which doesn't care about armor.

Evasion is another class feature that doesn't work in heavy armor. But that doesn't matter, because Invisible Fist is another ACF you can take that works just fine in heavy armor.

And lastly there's the Unarmored Speed Increase, which you can trade for Damage Reduction as per Unearthed Arcana.

So sure. Slap Adamantine Body on that Monk build.

[emeraldstreak]

Not quite a monk (unarmed swordsage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1138036)), but makes use of the slam, is a darkstalker, and could be rebuild as a monk if ToB is banned.

[StSword]

IF you really want to flurry your slams, there is a feat that would allow that, from Dragon Magazine 279- Unorthodox Flurry (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Unorthodox_Flurry).

It allows you to turn a light weapon into a weapon you can flurry with, and natural attacks are light weapons.

[Ken Murikumo]

Look into Warforged components. They are magic items exclusive to warforged. Also, the books state that any magic item can be made as a component. IIRC, in the same body of text it states that any component can be made slotless by doubling the price. That right there is exploitable by RAW (though quite expensive).

But for a monk, Lets focus on the Battlefist component. It increases your slam damage, but as a monk it makes your unarmed strike deal damage as if you are one size category larger. It's also a +1 weapon giving you a small bonus to hit and damage (this get kinda weird, because it's not actually a weapon). Technically, you could further enchant this battlefist. Make it a +5 with collision and other goodies.

Another good component is the wand sheath. It allows you to activate the contained wand with a thought. Normally you would need a decent UMD to activate the wand, but if we exploit the bit about slotless components, we could stack some skill boosting items and some INT & CHA boosting items. A good spell to have on a wand is Greater Mighty Wallop. With a 15ish caster level (on the wand) you could do unarmed damage as a colossal monk. These numbers are kind of difficult to find, but by the end it's like 12d8 per hit. You could arguably cast this on the battlefist and you would only need a CL 12 wand to get to colossal monk damage.

[gorfnab]

For Warforged Monks focusing on natural attacks, I like to use this build: Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10

[mouser13]

One of the rules that most DM ignore is warforge monks can use their armor and feats with it. Though I agree is a bit lacking clearness in that doesn't say you keep or wisdom bonus or not. It does say it a great advantage. Pg 23 Races of Eberron.

You can use slam with the monk but it would take additional -5 making -7 total from furry of blows so not very useful. (We I did this I took a level in cleric so I could get law devotion and travel because they are fun).

Treat the monks hands are weapons and the natural attacks as natural attacks follow the using natural attacks with weapons rules in monster manual.

[omegaghost]

Yeah, take Beast Strike and don't forget to replace your arms with Battlefists from ECS. Battlefist acts as a bigger hand for you increasing your slam damage to 1d8 AND letting you count yourself one size larger for Monk unarmed damage. Though I, as a DM, would only allow the damage increase when you're hitting with your fists.

Edit: also don't forget racial substitution levels from City of Stormreach p121.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, take Beast Strike and don't forget to replace your arms with Battlefists from ECS. Battlefist acts as a bigger hand for you increasing your slam damage to 1d8 AND letting you count yourself one size larger for Monk unarmed damage. Though I, as a DM, would only allow the damage increase when you're hitting with your fists.

Edit: also don't forget racial substitution levels from City of Stormreach p121.Battlefists are basically big metal boxing gloves that fit over your hands. Replacing your arms with those means you basically are a torso with boxing gloves attached to your shoulders instead of arms.

[omegaghost]

Battlefists are basically big metal boxing gloves that fit over your hands. Replacing your arms with those means you basically are a torso with boxing gloves attached to your shoulders instead of arms.

They cover more than a boxing glove would but yes, you are correct. It's an attached component. Yet when I look at the picture I can't help myself but imagine it being a forearm replacement. And I would also prefer my players to think it's a replacement just so that no one tries to pull a UMD shenanigan on some human character with it :D

[Zombulian]

Take the Beast Strike feat to add all of your slam damage (and claw damage, if you can swing it) to your unarmed strikes. Snap Kick gives you an extra unarmed strike (and thus, slam) any time you make an attack.

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) uses a warforged monk to good effect. Throwing yourself bodily through enemies, making them burst open like a cross between the Kool-Aid Man and Gallagher's Sledge-o-Matic? OH YEAH!

Also, if you want to focus on AoOs instead of flurries, double-damage on your attacks via the Decisive Strike ACF + Snap Kick + Double Hit means you get three attacks per AoO (or possibly four, depending on how Snap Kick combines with Double Hit), each at double damage. Combine with the war hulk's mighty swing or the war mind's sweeping strike (which also adds some much-needed manifesting to your monk) to attack multiple creatures with each AoO.

I was waiting for someone to mention Beast Strike. Who needs a slam to count for flurry (why would you even want that?) when you can have your slam damage on top of your UAS flurry?

[liquidformat]

Warforged plating is part of the warforged's body, including whatever feat he (or she) takes to improve it. It's not an item; it's not even an implanted graft. If you took Dragonwrought on a kobold, along with Dragon Wings, do you have to have to amputate your wings because you got them with a feat?

Warforged plating (even enhanced) is entirely usable with VoP, since it's not an item. And don't forget, as long as you donate "most" of your WBL (at least 1 cp above 50%), the rest can be used in other ways. Give to the group, have the group's casters use it to magically upgrade your body (unarmed strikes, claws, slams, plating, etc).

Now that is a reading of VoP to get a couple books thrown at you if I have ever heard one...

Anyways VoP is a pretty horrible feat choice for most builds and monks in particular suffer greatly from choosing it and are much better off ignoring it and just getting items to hedge up the many holes they have.

As said above Beast Strike is a decent feat choice as long as your dm lets you take it (it is magazine content so that is questionable). Without it the slam becomes a secondary attack that can be made at a -5 penalty, -2 with multiattack. You can also take second slam at level 6 to get another and Jaws of Death to get a bite attack; unarmed swordsage is a straight upgrade to monk and at the least is worth a dip. I would also suggest Fist of the Forest, it gives a lot of goodies including an extra bite attack even if you already have a bite attack and con to AC.

[omegaghost]

If PF content is allowed you may also want to go for an unchained monk instead, but racial substitution levels will have to be negotiated separately if you do so.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Now that is a reading of VoP to get a couple books thrown at you if I have ever heard one...As you yourself just said, VoP is typically terribad, and it needs all the help it can get, especially on a monk. Using its own wording against it to minmax it is a good thing, in this case.

Monk with WBL is bad. Monk with VoP is worse. Monk intelligently abusing ~1/2 WBL and VoP might *possibly* be usable in a T3 party. Maybe.

[liquidformat]

As you yourself just said, VoP is typically terribad, and it needs all the help it can get, especially on a monk. Using its own wording against it to minmax it is a good thing, in this case.

Monk with WBL is bad. Monk with VoP is worse. Monk intelligently abusing ~1/2 WBL and VoP might *possibly* be usable in a T3 party. Maybe.

Can't argue with that logic, though it depends on the table. I have been at tables where they swear monk is the best class in the game, and might not let anyone play it because it is too powerful....

Then again it all depends on what you are doing, monks can make pretty nice gishes doing stuff like taking Carmendine Monk and diving into enlightened fist. Or brainfarting on the feat but taking the one so you can stack your monk levels with a psionic class to manifesting. There are some powerful options out there just takes a bit of thought.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can't argue with that logic, though it depends on the table. I have been at tables where they swear monk is the best class in the game, and might not let anyone play it because it is too powerful....

Then again it all depends on what you are doing, monks can make pretty nice gishes doing stuff like taking Carmendine Monk and diving into enlightened fist. Or brainfarting on the feat but taking the one so you can stack your monk levels with a psionic class to manifesting. There are some powerful options out there just takes a bit of thought.Unless you're in a practically non-existent wealth campaign, WBL will always be better than straight VoP monk, even with Carmendine Monk or Tashalatora.

Even on a monk/druid, which is the best possible combination, VoP is still pretty awful.

[Zombulian]

Can't argue with that logic, though it depends on the table. I have been at tables where they swear monk is the best class in the game, and might not let anyone play it because it is too powerful....

Then again it all depends on what you are doing, monks can make pretty nice gishes doing stuff like taking Carmendine Monk and diving into enlightened fist. Or brainfarting on the feat but taking the one so you can stack your monk levels with a psionic class to manifesting. There are some powerful options out there just takes a bit of thought.

Tashalatora is really nice, but I don't think that really qualifies as making the Monk a good class. It's a feat that lets you essentially pretend to be a Monk while mostly being a Psion/Psychic Warrior.

[liquidformat]

Unless you're in a practically non-existent wealth campaign, WBL will always be better than straight VoP monk, even with Carmendine Monk or Tashalatora.

Even on a monk/druid, which is the best possible combination, VoP is still pretty awful.

Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't saying that those class options would make VoP any better on a monk, just saying they make a monk in general more viable and less crappy of a choice.

With that said Wild Monk 6/Master of Many Forms 10/Fist of The Forest 3/Warshaper 1 with VoP is a pretty powerful build. Going warforged is also nice since your armor plating is kept while shaping.


Tashalatora is really nice, but I don't think that really qualifies as making the Monk a good class. It's a feat that lets you essentially pretend to be a Monk while mostly being a Psion/Psychic Warrior.

a lot of people use it with warmind too, but it really is just psionic character +

[StSword]

I don't know if your game allows third party content or not, but Practical Enchanter, which is available for free online by the by, has a talent system that allows one to sacrifice their ability to use most types of magic items to instead enchant oneself.

It gives one less points to play with than wealth by level, but it's intended for the players to choose the talents best suited for their character without worrying about finding people with the right feat or what loot tables or the local magic mart has available.