0th level party - Builds and tactics?

[Greywander]

My sister and I are talking about starting a new campaign where we'll start as 0th level characters. This was a bit of homebrew I designed a little while back, but this is perhaps the first time I've had to sit down and actually think about what I'd want to play as. This got me curious to ask here what sort of party composition and tactics a 0th level party might want to use. (I'm also open to critique, as I'm not sure I have things properly balanced.) Although we'll only have the two of us for our particular game, let's assume a "standard" party of 4 to 6 players, as that gives us a lot more room to work with and would probably be more common in general.

Here's a copypasta of the rules I've written up straight from the doc. Don't worry about the references to 1/2 level, it's just another part of the homebrew that makes classes a little less frontloaded by splitting their 1st level features across two levels.


0th Level Characters
A 0th level character can roll their ability scores normally, but if you want an authentic commoner experience, then use the following method:

Roll 3d6, in order, to generate your ability scores.
Then, reroll one ability score and take the higher number.
Then, switch two ability scores. You can choose to skip this step.
To make up for lower ability scores, gain +1 to all ability scores when you reach ½ or 1st level. Some tables give a free feat at 1st level, in which case the +1 to all ability scores would be better at ½ level.

A 0th level character also chooses a race and background normally, but does not choose a class. Instead, you can choose from three different pre-classes that act like a class: warrior, expert, or caster.

The warrior’s and caster’s starting equipment is limited to the equipment granted by their background. The expert and caster have 6 + CON mod hit points, and a d6 for a hit die, and aren’t proficient with unarmed strikes. All pre-classes have a proficiency bonus of +2.

Warrior
You are proficient with unarmed strikes, simple weapons, and light armor.

Your hit points are 8 + your CON mod, and your hit die is a d8.

Once you gain enough experience, you can enter any of the following classes as a ½ level character: barbarian, bard, cleric, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, or warlock.

For non-PHB classes, any with (a) proficiency with simple weapons, (b) proficiency with light armor*, and (c) a hit die of at least d8.

*Monks are the exception to the requirement for light armor proficiency, as they fit best with the warrior pre-class conceptually.

Expert
You gain proficiency with one additional skill. Once you reach ½ level, you gain one less class skill than normal, as your extra skill from the expert pre-class counts as one of your class skills.
Experts also gain additional starting equipment:

An extra 20 gp.
A shortsword.
(a) one tool of your choice, (b) a cart and mule, (c) a rowboat, or (d) an item worth up to 25 gp.
(a) an abacus, (b) a bell, (c) a block and tackle, (d) a crowbar, (e) a grappling hook, (f) a hammer, (g) a set of manacles, (h) a miner’s pick, (i) a shovel, or (j) an item worth up to 2 gp.

Once you gain enough experience, you can enter any of the following classes as a ½ level character: any class, as long as you are proficient with at least one skill from that class’s skill list.

Caster
You learn one cantrip, chosen from any spell list. You may use your choice of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as your spellcasting ability score. Once you reach ½ level, you gain one less cantrip than normal, as your pre-class cantrip counts against the number of cantrips your class knows.

Once you gain enough experience, you can enter any of the following classes as a ½ level character: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. Your pre-class cantrip must be on that class’s spell list.

For non-PHB classes, any that learns a cantrip at 1st level. Your pre-class cantrip must be on the class’s spell list.

Here's kind of my gut feelings on each pre-class: they'll all pretty weak, which is intentional, but it does make it difficult to choose when none seem to be winners.

Warrior
In a nut shell, the warrior basically gets +2 to attack rolls, +1 AC (from padded/leather armor), and +2 HP.

Half of me is saying that you'd want a warrior to act as your front line and to give you a bigger edge in surprise attacks. The other half is saying that it's pointless because 0th level characters are too weak to compete in a straight fight. If you must kill something, you'll have to adopt a Combat as War mentality, or else bring lots of extra character sheets. The warrior's bonuses are potent, but they only bring them up to being roughly on par with something like a goblin. It then becomes a numbers game: whichever side has the most combatants is probably going to win.

All that said, you can engage in a fight without it being a "straight" fight. Get behind cover with a shortbow, light crossbow, or even a sling, drop some ball bearings down, and try to whittle them down before they get to melee range. Fight smarter, not harder. And under these circumstances, the bonuses of a warrior give them a superior edge.

Expert
In a nut shell, the expert gets an extra skill and extra equipment. Their role is that of the skill monkey or "item person".

I think the strongest feature of this pre-class is the extra equipment, honestly. However, this advantage will eventually be erased as loot is obtained (though you should be 1/2 or 1st level by then, probably), or it will be spread out among your party. The main benefit of bringing an expert seems to be making sure you have the right item for the job, whether it is a rope, grappling hook, crowbar, shovel, or whatever.

Caster
In a nut shell, the caster gets one cantrip. And that's it.

I'm not sure whether this is the strongest or weakest pre-class. Magic lets you do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to do, so it really opens up a lot of options when it comes to creative solutions to problems. A caster can still pick up a sling and quarterstaff for pretty cheap, making them about as effective as the expert at combat. Damage cantrips could offer greater offensive potential than a warrior, but seems like a waste of potential to me, especially when another cantrip could let you solve the same problem without combat. Still, one combat mage might not be a bad addition to a party.

Part of me wants to try to give 1st level spells to casters, but this would put them a bit too close to what a 1/2 level caster class is. In a previous thread on this topic, someone voiced the opinion that only characters with class levels should have access to 1st level spells, a sentiment that I find myself somewhat agreeing with. One way to make it workable might be to only allow a single ritual spell, which can only be used as a ritual, and only once. Either once per day or once ever, and in either case it would be lost when you reach 1/2 level.

Party Composition
I'm thinking about the ideal party composition, and for a 6 person party, I might say 2 warriors, 1 expert, 1 combat caster, and 2 utility casters. For a 5 person party, I'd drop one warrior. This gives you some combat ability, but also a decent amount of utility.

I think the biggest choices to be made are your race, skills, and which cantrip (if caster or race with spells). High elf is an excellent race to illustrate how much of a different your race can make, giving you a free skill, a few weapon proficiencies, and a cantrip. It's like a hybrid of all three pre-classes. Skills are important in that they are the primary way of interacting with the world outside of combat, and combat is something you'll be trying to avoid if you want to stay alive. Cantrips have the potential to be game-changers, and can add a lot of new tactical options. Going back to race, Vhuman also greatly expands your options, allowing you to get access to feats such as Magic Initiate, Moderately Armored, PAM, Skilled, Ritual Caster, Mobile, Spell Sniper, Tavern Brawler, or Lucky.

As for gear, a quarterstaff and sling are pretty cheap, or you could go for dual clubs. For DEX characters, a dagger is a bit more expensive, but actually if you're not a warrior you might as well go for a whip instead. Same price, same damage, and you're not proficient with either, so you might as well take the one with reach (unless you plan to dual wield, in which case you'll need daggers). The expert's free shortsword is somewhat overshadowed by the cheap quarterstaff on a STR build, but gets you a free 1d6 finesse weapon if you have better DEX, and you can grab a dagger to dual wield. Ball bearing, caltrops, and other items that can be used to get an edge in combat or to avoid it entirely will also be quite handy. I'm curious if you would consider using armor and/or a shield on a character without proficiency.

So I'm wondering, what kind of party would you build with these rules? What if you were stuck permanently at 0th level? Do you think you could take out a stronger monster, like a lich, dragon, or beholder? What are some interesting tricks and tactics you would use that wouldn't benefit a 1st level party as much?

[opaopajr]

Tactics-wise, Dodge is your friend, first and last and always, especially with any melee. That and ranged & polearm formations behind doding PCs will do well.

Strategy-wise, pooling money and hiring servants, skilled or unskilled, will be a major save to young parties.

GM-wise, you'd need to explore alternate methods of XP -- hard! Maybe sprinkle more gold for GP=XP, or more magic gear (like one-shot potions) for XP, and more Explore & Social pillar Quest XP.

Overall I dig your idea and hope it plays out well! :smallsmile: Part of me now wants to run your version versus my slipshod quick way of Race, Background, plus a 1d4 Hit Die. :smallcool: But I am lazy and like to remember less rules... :smallredface: Maybe one day. :smallbiggrin:

My best advice would be to grant everyone a temporary armor proficiency in "simple armors": padded, hide, ring mail, plus a buckler (shield +1). That covers the first of light, med, & heavy armors, plus a tiny shield weaker than standard. It'd bypass a lot more death.

[Mutazoia]

If you can find a copy, the old "Greyhawk Adventures' book has rules for starting players at level Zero. It would take a little work to update for 5e (no skills in 2nd ed, for example), but I always enjoyed starting a campaign with those rules now and then.

[FrancisBean]

I did something like this for a one-shot on Halloween some years back.... But that was 3.5, and players had to build a 1/2-level character using the optional rules for multiclassing at first level. It's another place to look for ideas, if you have a 3.x DMG kicking around.

(The campaign kickoff was actually a red herring; they were playing novices in a mounted pseudo-military order. They wound up with a mission where they stole their choice of the exotic elite mounts from the restricted stables. Then I took their characters away and handed them their actual characters: the mounts they'd just stolen. With a reminder that their ethics required keeping the squishy riders alive....)

[Fable Wright]

So I did a thread about this a while back, with zeroth level worldbuilding.

Except without the pseudo-classes.

It was eventually settled that, if you can get gear, Elf was one of the best races around due to native Longbow proficiency. Wood Elf gave movement speed for kiting, High Elf gave spellcasting, Eladrin gives you disengage.

If you couldn't get gear, Lizardfolk was a great package due to ease of getting gear, the built-in natural weapons and natural armor, and so on.

Under this setup, I think that an "optimized" party would be Wood Elf Expert, getting a shortbow for kiting; a Variant Human (Magic Initiate: Find Familiar, Firebolt, Minor Illusion or Mold Earth) Expert for scouting and a disposable owl (Expert gets an extra 2 summons); a Tortle Caster with Create Bonfire for milking the absolute most battlefield control you can get out of a cantrip (check the rules on placing spells; that 5' cube per RAW affects four squares on a grid, and then they can turtle up with 21 AC and disadvantage on ranged attacks to hit them); a VHuman Caster (Toll the Dead) with Magic Initiate (Goodberry, Shillelagh, Guidance, going towards a Life Cleric) for the most healing you can get; and a Lizardfolk Warrior to rapidly construct Javelins and darts to toss at enemies and have a bit of self-heal if worst comes to worst and melee happens.

I feel like a Forest Gnome could have some serious potential, with Speak With Small Animals giving access to a huge information network, a lot of Help actions, and a bevy of potential combatants. Plus they have Minor Illusion and a small size for strong defensive capacity. Stick them with a ranged offensive option (probably Caster's Firebolt) and they'd be good. With Find Familiar, I'd 100% call them the best starting caster... but they don't, per your writeup, while Variant Human does. So we stick with VHuman Familiar summoning.

[Greywander]

Overall I dig your idea and hope it plays out well! :smallsmile:
Thanks! While I do like to powergame, there have been times when I've forgotten that I had an ability until after it would have been helpful. Part of the idea here is to scale things way back. Instead of an ability being just another tool in your toolbox, it's the only tool in your toolbox, so you must figure out how to get the most mileage you can out of it. I feel like this is something that tends to get lost when you have too many abilities; you look through your toolbox and don't immediately see a quick and easy solution, so you give up and try something else. A powerful character has the luxury of not being creative, because they're more likely to have an ability that does exactly what they need it to do at that moment, rather than having to improvise and bend another ability to the task.


Part of me now wants to run your version versus my slipshod quick way of Race, Background, plus a 1d4 Hit Die. :smallcool: But I am lazy and like to remember less rules... :smallredface: Maybe one day. :smallbiggrin:
Nothing wrong with race + background, that's where this originally started out. However, I thought about it and it seemed weird that you could play, say, a soldier background but not start with any weapon or armor proficiencies. There's also the fairly large jump in power you get going straight from "race + background" to 1st level in a class. A wizard gets 3 cantrips and 6 spells, all apparently over night. It was already awkward when you were multiclassing, which is part of I also did the 1/2 level thing (for wizards specifically, they get 1 cantrip and 4 spells in their spellbook, and can prepare only one spell and have one spell slot, a nice in-between from "not wizard" to "wizard"). It made sense to me that you might have average commoners who would be able to use some small amount of magic, perhaps early in their wizard or bard studies, or just beginning to manifest sorcery. Plus, the pre-classes add a bit more variety to your build options, allowing, say, one dwarf acolyte to be distinguished from another dwarf acolyte.

I suppose another option would be race + background + feat. This gives them the option of grabbing Weapon Master or Tavern Brawler (for a martial character), Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster (for a spellcaster) or Skilled (for a skill monkey) or a number of other options. Not sure if Weapon Master would be a good choice, even in this situation, though. I feel like to be on par with Magic Initiate, you'd need to give them Weapon Master and Lightly + Moderately Armored.


My best advice would be to grant everyone a temporary armor proficiency in "simple armors": padded, hide, ring mail, plus a buckler (shield +1). That covers the first of light, med, & heavy armors, plus a tiny shield weaker than standard. It'd bypass a lot more death.
Well, they're commoners, bypassing death isn't the goal. :smallamused:

Their frailty is a concern, so I think it's important that the players and DM know up front just how dangerous it is. Part of the point of 0th level is to highlight that, yes, adventuring actually is incredibly dangerous. This is why most people don't do it, they hire near-suicidal adventurers to do it for them. A 0th level character that eventually graduates to 1st level gets to actually feel like they're a cut above most other people. What would be "just another Tuesday" to a 1st level party becomes an epic quest for 0th level parties, something that the players might talk about when they're retelling their RPG stories.

I think what 0th level characters would work best for, although you certainly wouldn't need to do it this way, would be with a meatgrinder campaign; every time a PC dies, they just move on to their next character, and the characters that survive to the end get to become full adventurers (see something like the All Guardsmen Party 40k story). It's also fine for the DM to pull their punches a bit when things start looking bad, but I feel it will break the Suspension of Disbelief to give average commoners full plot armor.

Actually, part of the inspiration for this was a D&D story where the DM did a one-shot where the players played as villagers. They were tasked with finding some adventurers to kill some giant rats in the basement of the inn. Instead, they decided to do it themselves. It goes badly, so they roll up new villagers. They get back to the inn only to realize that their past lives left the basement door open, and the rats are loose. At some point, one of the PCs stumbles into a bear trap that they had set to catch the rats. The entire village is decimated. Later, the DM goes back to their original campaign, and the players stumble across a ruined town with a corpse stuck in a bear trap.


If you can find a copy, the old "Greyhawk Adventures' book has rules for starting players at level Zero. It would take a little work to update for 5e (no skills in 2nd ed, for example), but I always enjoyed starting a campaign with those rules now and then.
Do you remember what these rules were? Maybe there's something I could use there, but 2nd edition is probably different enough that many of the finer details wouldn't transfer over well.


Then I took their characters away and handed them their actual characters: the mounts they'd just stolen.
I love that people can come up with stuff like this. It sounds really fun, and I'm sure the players got a kick out of it.


So I did a thread about this a while back, with zeroth level worldbuilding.

Except without the pseudo-classes.

It was eventually settled that, if you can get gear, Elf was one of the best races around due to native Longbow proficiency. Wood Elf gave movement speed for kiting, High Elf gave spellcasting, Eladrin gives you disengage.

If you couldn't get gear, Lizardfolk was a great package due to ease of getting gear, the built-in natural weapons and natural armor, and so on.
Even with the pre-classes, race still seems to matter a whole lot more. It's kind of funny, because at 1st level race is less important than class, and only gets less so as you continue to level. Nice point on lizardfolk, too, I'd forgotten about them.


Under this setup, I think that an "optimized" party would be Wood Elf Expert, getting a shortbow for kiting; a Variant Human (Magic Initiate: Find Familiar, Firebolt, Minor Illusion or Mold Earth) Expert for scouting and a disposable owl (Expert gets an extra 2 summons); a Tortle Caster with Create Bonfire for milking the absolute most battlefield control you can get out of a cantrip (check the rules on placing spells; that 5' cube per RAW affects four squares on a grid, and then they can turtle up with 21 AC and disadvantage on ranged attacks to hit them); a VHuman Caster (Toll the Dead) with Magic Initiate (Goodberry, Shillelagh, Guidance, going towards a Life Cleric) for the most healing you can get; and a Lizardfolk Warrior to rapidly construct Javelins and darts to toss at enemies and have a bit of self-heal if worst comes to worst and melee happens.
This sounds like a pretty solid party build. I'd question the choice of Shillelagh, as at 0th level I'd much rather have a damage cantrip (which you do, with Toll the Dead), especially one that doesn't require me to get into melee, but I can understand wanting it for later when you get cleric levels. Another note on the lizardfolk: the way I've defined things, only warriors are proficient with unarmed attacks, so races with natural weapons get more mileage out of them by going warrior. In the same way, elf experts get proficiency with their free shortsword, so that's nice. Minor Illusion and Mold Earth would both be good picks. I'm surprised not to see Prestidigitation or Thaumaturgy here, though, as you can get a lot of mileage out of creative use of those cantrips, too.


I feel like a Forest Gnome could have some serious potential, with Speak With Small Animals giving access to a huge information network, a lot of Help actions, and a bevy of potential combatants. Plus they have Minor Illusion and a small size for strong defensive capacity. Stick them with a ranged offensive option (probably Caster's Firebolt) and they'd be good. With Find Familiar, I'd 100% call them the best starting caster... but they don't, per your writeup, while Variant Human does. So we stick with VHuman Familiar summoning.
I think Vhumans are even crazier for 0th level characters than they are for 1st level characters. The Magic Initiate feat gives basically the same benefits as being a 1/2 level sorcerer (should I just link the doc already? Parts of it are somewhat unfinished and unpolished), so it's like being a level (or half level?) higher. It's true this comes at the cost of some other great racial traits, but as we've already established your choice of race becomes less important the higher level you get.

All that said, gnomes (or yuan-ti or vedalken) would be really good against enemy spellcasters. Mages would be particularly dangerous to a 0th level party, especially since you don't have any saving throw proficiencies until you hit 1/2 level and get them from your class. Even a 1st level wizard can really ruin your day if you fail a saving throw.

Anyway, good points so far!

[Mutazoia]

Do you remember what these rules were? Maybe there's something I could use there, but 2nd edition is probably different enough that many of the finer details wouldn't transfer over well.

Yes. There are about 10 pages of rules, so doing a copy/paste direct into the thread will be troublesome, and with the rules about posting copyrighted material, I'm not sure how the secret police would feel about linking just that section of the rules. When in doubt, don't do it.

In a nutshell:

A zero-level PC starts out with 90+1d20 aptitude points (AP). His six ability scores each start at a level of 3. Over the course of several weeks, he can spend AP to increase his ability scores. It also costs 1 AP to purchase a proficiency slot (weapon or non-weapon) and 1 AP to purchase each additional language. Additional HP is purchased at a 1 to 1 conversion. But since you will re-roll your HP when you finally "graduate" to your chosen class, buying HP is kind of a waste.

For skills: Basically, any time the PC wishes to perform a class function (be it finding traps, casting a spell, turning undead, etc.), he must either seek training (in the form of instruction points) or make a luck roll. This is a useful mechanism for those players who want to experiment with different class functions before settling on a single class (and perhaps even keeping extraneous abilities for a small XP penalty).

Once a character reaches the minim standards of a class, he can "join" that class. Minimum requirements are the minimum stat requirements for a class, so technically you can "join" your chosen class at any time. However, if you haven't developed any skills that your chose class has, you don't get them at all, so it's never a good idea to join early.

NOTE: Upon further research, the rules for zero level characters also appeared in the module N4: Treasure Hunt.

[GreyBlack]

My sister and I are talking about starting a new campaign where we'll start as 0th level characters. This was a bit of homebrew I designed a little while back, but this is perhaps the first time I've had to sit down and actually think about what I'd want to play as. This got me curious to ask here what sort of party composition and tactics a 0th level party might want to use. (I'm also open to critique, as I'm not sure I have things properly balanced.) Although we'll only have the two of us for our particular game, let's assume a "standard" party of 4 to 6 players, as that gives us a lot more room to work with and would probably be more common in general.

Here's a copypasta of the rules I've written up straight from the doc. Don't worry about the references to 1/2 level, it's just another part of the homebrew that makes classes a little less frontloaded by splitting their 1st level features across two levels.


0th Level Characters
A 0th level character can roll their ability scores normally, but if you want an authentic commoner experience, then use the following method:

Roll 3d6, in order, to generate your ability scores.
Then, reroll one ability score and take the higher number.
Then, switch two ability scores. You can choose to skip this step.
To make up for lower ability scores, gain +1 to all ability scores when you reach ½ or 1st level. Some tables give a free feat at 1st level, in which case the +1 to all ability scores would be better at ½ level.

A 0th level character also chooses a race and background normally, but does not choose a class. Instead, you can choose from three different pre-classes that act like a class: warrior, expert, or caster.

The warrior’s and caster’s starting equipment is limited to the equipment granted by their background. The expert and caster have 6 + CON mod hit points, and a d6 for a hit die, and aren’t proficient with unarmed strikes. All pre-classes have a proficiency bonus of +2.

Warrior
You are proficient with unarmed strikes, simple weapons, and light armor.

Your hit points are 8 + your CON mod, and your hit die is a d8.

Once you gain enough experience, you can enter any of the following classes as a ½ level character: barbarian, bard, cleric, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, or warlock.

For non-PHB classes, any with (a) proficiency with simple weapons, (b) proficiency with light armor*, and (c) a hit die of at least d8.

*Monks are the exception to the requirement for light armor proficiency, as they fit best with the warrior pre-class conceptually.

Expert
You gain proficiency with one additional skill. Once you reach ½ level, you gain one less class skill than normal, as your extra skill from the expert pre-class counts as one of your class skills.
Experts also gain additional starting equipment:

An extra 20 gp.
A shortsword.
(a) one tool of your choice, (b) a cart and mule, (c) a rowboat, or (d) an item worth up to 25 gp.
(a) an abacus, (b) a bell, (c) a block and tackle, (d) a crowbar, (e) a grappling hook, (f) a hammer, (g) a set of manacles, (h) a miner’s pick, (i) a shovel, or (j) an item worth up to 2 gp.

Once you gain enough experience, you can enter any of the following classes as a ½ level character: any class, as long as you are proficient with at least one skill from that class’s skill list.

Caster
You learn one cantrip, chosen from any spell list. You may use your choice of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as your spellcasting ability score. Once you reach ½ level, you gain one less cantrip than normal, as your pre-class cantrip counts against the number of cantrips your class knows.

Once you gain enough experience, you can enter any of the following classes as a ½ level character: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. Your pre-class cantrip must be on that class’s spell list.

For non-PHB classes, any that learns a cantrip at 1st level. Your pre-class cantrip must be on the class’s spell list.

Here's kind of my gut feelings on each pre-class: they'll all pretty weak, which is intentional, but it does make it difficult to choose when none seem to be winners.

Warrior
In a nut shell, the warrior basically gets +2 to attack rolls, +1 AC (from padded/leather armor), and +2 HP.

Half of me is saying that you'd want a warrior to act as your front line and to give you a bigger edge in surprise attacks. The other half is saying that it's pointless because 0th level characters are too weak to compete in a straight fight. If you must kill something, you'll have to adopt a Combat as War mentality, or else bring lots of extra character sheets. The warrior's bonuses are potent, but they only bring them up to being roughly on par with something like a goblin. It then becomes a numbers game: whichever side has the most combatants is probably going to win.

All that said, you can engage in a fight without it being a "straight" fight. Get behind cover with a shortbow, light crossbow, or even a sling, drop some ball bearings down, and try to whittle them down before they get to melee range. Fight smarter, not harder. And under these circumstances, the bonuses of a warrior give them a superior edge.

Expert
In a nut shell, the expert gets an extra skill and extra equipment. Their role is that of the skill monkey or "item person".

I think the strongest feature of this pre-class is the extra equipment, honestly. However, this advantage will eventually be erased as loot is obtained (though you should be 1/2 or 1st level by then, probably), or it will be spread out among your party. The main benefit of bringing an expert seems to be making sure you have the right item for the job, whether it is a rope, grappling hook, crowbar, shovel, or whatever.

Caster
In a nut shell, the caster gets one cantrip. And that's it.

I'm not sure whether this is the strongest or weakest pre-class. Magic lets you do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to do, so it really opens up a lot of options when it comes to creative solutions to problems. A caster can still pick up a sling and quarterstaff for pretty cheap, making them about as effective as the expert at combat. Damage cantrips could offer greater offensive potential than a warrior, but seems like a waste of potential to me, especially when another cantrip could let you solve the same problem without combat. Still, one combat mage might not be a bad addition to a party.

Part of me wants to try to give 1st level spells to casters, but this would put them a bit too close to what a 1/2 level caster class is. In a previous thread on this topic, someone voiced the opinion that only characters with class levels should have access to 1st level spells, a sentiment that I find myself somewhat agreeing with. One way to make it workable might be to only allow a single ritual spell, which can only be used as a ritual, and only once. Either once per day or once ever, and in either case it would be lost when you reach 1/2 level.

Party Composition
I'm thinking about the ideal party composition, and for a 6 person party, I might say 2 warriors, 1 expert, 1 combat caster, and 2 utility casters. For a 5 person party, I'd drop one warrior. This gives you some combat ability, but also a decent amount of utility.

I think the biggest choices to be made are your race, skills, and which cantrip (if caster or race with spells). High elf is an excellent race to illustrate how much of a different your race can make, giving you a free skill, a few weapon proficiencies, and a cantrip. It's like a hybrid of all three pre-classes. Skills are important in that they are the primary way of interacting with the world outside of combat, and combat is something you'll be trying to avoid if you want to stay alive. Cantrips have the potential to be game-changers, and can add a lot of new tactical options. Going back to race, Vhuman also greatly expands your options, allowing you to get access to feats such as Magic Initiate, Moderately Armored, PAM, Skilled, Ritual Caster, Mobile, Spell Sniper, Tavern Brawler, or Lucky.

As for gear, a quarterstaff and sling are pretty cheap, or you could go for dual clubs. For DEX characters, a dagger is a bit more expensive, but actually if you're not a warrior you might as well go for a whip instead. Same price, same damage, and you're not proficient with either, so you might as well take the one with reach (unless you plan to dual wield, in which case you'll need daggers). The expert's free shortsword is somewhat overshadowed by the cheap quarterstaff on a STR build, but gets you a free 1d6 finesse weapon if you have better DEX, and you can grab a dagger to dual wield. Ball bearing, caltrops, and other items that can be used to get an edge in combat or to avoid it entirely will also be quite handy. I'm curious if you would consider using armor and/or a shield on a character without proficiency.

So I'm wondering, what kind of party would you build with these rules? What if you were stuck permanently at 0th level? Do you think you could take out a stronger monster, like a lich, dragon, or beholder? What are some interesting tricks and tactics you would use that wouldn't benefit a 1st level party as much?

Question: Why isn't the Monk considered an Expert instead of a Warrior?

[napoleon_in_rag]

So I'm wondering, what kind of party would you build with these rules?

1/2 Warrors and 1/2 Casters. I think Casters would be more useful than Experts, especially with the right mix of cantrips.



What if you were stuck permanently at 0th level?

I would find another DM.



Do you think you could take out a stronger monster, like a lich, dragon, or beholder?

No.



What are some interesting tricks and tactics you would use that wouldn't benefit a 1st level party as much?

Not sure. Running away from Awakened Shrubs?

[Fable Wright]

Oh, right, and on fighting higher level foes:

It really depends on gear. If the party gets an Eversmoking Bottle, they could maaaaaaaybe take out a Beholder, depending on tactics. The bottle blocks LoS unless the Beholder uses the anti-magic cone. Then all they need to do is deal with around 200HP, one attack at a time, against a one-hit-kill bite at +5 to hit. That could be really deadly, but potentially doable.

Lich... no. With a Scroll of Silence, Eversmoking Bottle carried by Familiar to reduce risk of being Fireballed down with a legendary action, and a VHuman Expert Prodigy (Athletics) and a Guidance boost, you could pin the lich in one place for a round without spellcasting... and then get taken out by a single Paralyzing Touch.

Dragon: Flat no. Fire Breath -> You're dead.

For tactics, everything that applies at first level applies here. You're squishy beyond reckoning, kiting is your best strategy, never move alone (weight of fire means you can evac friends), and because you all have at least Backgrounds and no one has armor, stealth is a valid option for everyone. First level adventurers are extremely powerful, and you? You're not.

[Laserlight]

Most people are playing Commoners in Real Life; I wouldn't ask my players to do it in game for more than a single session, at the very most (and usually we start at L3 or L5). If a DM said we were permanently at L0, I'd suggest playing Paranoia instead.

[Greywander]

Question: Why isn't the Monk considered an Expert instead of a Warrior?
The expert can become any class, including a monk. The only restriction is that they need to be proficient with at least one skill on that class's skill list. I only called monks out specifically under warriors because they don't meet one of the requirements for a valid class a warrior can become, as they lack light armor proficiency. It made sense to me that someone wanting to play a monk might want to start as a warrior, as monks are a martial class, so I made an exception.

In general, I tried to put as few restrictions as I could on which classes you could take from each pre-class. Mostly it came down to two things: (a) I didn't want to take away a pre-class feature when you graduated to a full class, and (b) I didn't want it to matter which pre-class you took once you took on a class. Hence, all the features of a pre-class are also features of the classes they can end up going into (except warriors becoming monks, who may or may not lose light armor proficiency, at the DM's discretion). This leads to some unorthodox combinations, like warriors becoming warlocks. Warlocks have proficiency with simple weapons, light armor, and a d8 hit die, so they meet all the requirements. Why not let warriors become warlocks, if they really want to?


1/2 Warrors and 1/2 Casters. I think Casters would be more useful than Experts, especially with the right mix of cantrips.
Maybe, but I think you're underestimating the usefulness of some extra items and gold. Especially for a party without any notable class features, getting creative with items will be one of the few strategies left to them.


Oh, right, and on fighting higher level foes:

It really depends on gear. If the party gets an Eversmoking Bottle, they could maaaaaaaybe take out a Beholder, depending on tactics. The bottle blocks LoS unless the Beholder uses the anti-magic cone. Then all they need to do is deal with around 200HP, one attack at a time, against a one-hit-kill bite at +5 to hit. That could be really deadly, but potentially doable.

Lich... no. With a Scroll of Silence, Eversmoking Bottle carried by Familiar to reduce risk of being Fireballed down with a legendary action, and a VHuman Expert Prodigy (Athletics) and a Guidance boost, you could pin the lich in one place for a round without spellcasting... and then get taken out by a single Paralyzing Touch.

Dragon: Flat no. Fire Breath -> You're dead.

For tactics, everything that applies at first level applies here. You're squishy beyond reckoning, kiting is your best strategy, never move alone (weight of fire means you can evac friends), and because you all have at least Backgrounds and no one has armor, stealth is a valid option for everyone. First level adventurers are extremely powerful, and you? You're not.
I think taking any of these on in a direct fight is probably a really bad idea. You'll want to lure them into a trap, or just drop a mountain on them. The beholder, which is probably the most actually dangerous creature listed here, might actually be doable if you could somehow prevent it from using its eye rays. It's slow enough that you could kite it with slings and short bows and stay out of bite range.

For the other two (or all three), you might need to collapse their lair on top of them and hope that kills them. Really, it all seems to boil down to luring them into a trap that kills them if they fail a skill check or saving throw, and if they don't then you probably die. Which I guess is what you'd expect for commoners. But it can be done.

Dragons tend to be vain, so you might be able to draw it out into a trap you've prepared for it, perhaps with the promise of tribute. A lich is less vain, and their spells make them harder to pin down. They might be stuck in a routine, though, so you might be able to set a trap based on where you know they will be at a given time. Beholders are extremely vain, but also extremely paranoid, so I don't know that you could lure it into a trap that it hadn't already anticipated and countered.


Most people are playing Commoners in Real Life; I wouldn't ask my players to do it in game for more than a single session, at the very most (and usually we start at L3 or L5). If a DM said we were permanently at L0, I'd suggest playing Paranoia instead.
I would like to try Paranoia at some point, it sounds like fun. But even a commoner in D&D can do things we can't do in real life. Besides, plenty of TV shows (anime in particular) seem to start with a protagonist that is comparable to the target audience who later becomes a demigod. I suppose in a way it's part of wish fulfillment, to start with what you are now and (vicariously, through the protagonist) become something more.

It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but I'm sure some people would enjoy clawing their way up and earning a class, and I'd also hope it would make them a bit more empathetic toward the plight of NPCs, most of whom are commoners as they once were.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Maybe, but I think you're underestimating the usefulness of some extra items and gold. Especially for a party without any notable class features, getting creative with items will be one of the few strategies left to them.

The equipment advantage would go away after one session. The items you list are common enough to be easily stolen in a typical village. But being able to cast a cantrip at will is a permanent advantage.

[Fable Wright]

The equipment advantage would go away after one session. The items you list are common enough to be easily stolen in a typical village. But being able to cast a cantrip at will is a permanent advantage.

We're playing Commoners & Coppers. Translating things at the rate of 1 copper = $1, you're talking a starting bonus of at least $2,500 for the expert, in addition to your $1000-$2000 life savings. At level 0, stealing $2000 of grade or earning it is exceedingly risky and non trivial, but starting with a shortbow, or even longbow, is a huge boost to get you through that.

The cantrip being special lasts all the way until level 1, so it's dubious how powerful it is. If you play a total of 3 sessions below level 1, and only get the bow halfway through the second, that's a huge time spent without your character's biggest asset.



I think taking any of these on in a direct fight is probably a really bad idea. You'll want to lure them into a trap, or just drop a mountain on them. The beholder, which is probably the most actually dangerous creature listed here, might actually be doable if you could somehow prevent it from using its eye rays. It's slow enough that you could kite it with slings and short bows and stay out of bite range.

The beholder must target a creature it has LoS to, and cannot target a creature in its AMF. You can negate a Beholder's primary offense with Fog Cloud, Darkness, Eversmoking Bottle, or Blindness, as the Beholder will either be unable to see you, or you'll be in AMF cone.


For the other two (or all three), you might need to collapse their lair on top of them and hope that kills them. Really, it all seems to boil down to luring them into a trap that kills them if they fail a skill check or saving throw, and if they don't then you probably die. Which I guess is what you'd expect for commoners. But it can be done.

Dragons tend to be vain, so you might be able to draw it out into a trap you've prepared for it, perhaps with the promise of tribute. A lich is less vain, and their spells make them harder to pin down. They might be stuck in a routine, though, so you might be able to set a trap based on where you know they will be at a given time. Beholders are extremely vain, but also extremely paranoid, so I don't know that you could lure it into a trap that it hadn't already anticipated and countered.

Legendary Resistance. They can't fail a saving throw, you can't sneak past them, their movement modes vastly outclass your own, and the kinds of traps you can set are limited to what your backwoods village has in various sheds.

These two are not happening.

[Sir_Solifuge]

Grognerd actually is putting together soem homebrewed 0-1st Level classes in another thread. (It's awesome, I'm excited about it, and I even contributed a bit)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601368-The-Menophyrus-Academy

You could potentially take a look at that and see if it strikes your fancy or could be of some use.

[FrancisBean]

Most people are playing Commoners in Real Life; I wouldn't ask my players to do it in game for more than a single session, at the very most (and usually we start at L3 or L5). If a DM said we were permanently at L0, I'd suggest playing Paranoia instead.

I've actually merged the ideas of D&D and Paranoia as a drinking game before... Back in the day, I wrote a program which generated 1st level characters from honest 3d6 stats rolled in order. I'd dump a stack of a few hundred ready to play, and then I'd run our "heroes" through the most heinous death trap dungeons imaginable. When (note: not "if") your character died, you'd take your drink and draw a new one and keep going. It makes for a fun evening of exceptionally non-serious gaming. And if ever your character really wanted to know "what does this button do?" this was the perfect game for you. But playing at that level for an entire campaign? Yeah, I might theorycraft a party for it, but I wouldn't want to play it.

That old program was originally written in Applesoft BASIC for the Red Box edition; I later ported it to ANSI C in college. I really ought to update it to 5e and do it again some day. :smallamused:

[LtPowers]

If you can find a copy, the old "Greyhawk Adventures' book has rules for starting players at level Zero. It would take a little work to update for 5e (no skills in 2nd ed, for example), but I always enjoyed starting a campaign with those rules now and then.

4th edition also had 0-level character rules (thanks to Dragon magazine, issue #403).


Powers &8^]

[napoleon_in_rag]

We're playing Commoners & Coppers. Translating things at the rate of 1 copper = $1, you're talking a starting bonus of at least $2,500 for the expert, in addition to your $1000-$2000 life savings. At level 0, stealing $2000 of grade or earning it is exceedingly risky and non trivial, but starting with a shortbow, or even longbow, is a huge boost to get you through that.

The cantrip being special lasts all the way until level 1, so it's dubious how powerful it is. If you play a total of 3 sessions below level 1, and only get the bow halfway through the second, that's a huge time spent without your character's biggest asset.



20 gp is not a huge advantage. Many backgrounds give you 20 gp or more. Reading your description of expert, it's not clear that an expert get's proficiency in simple weapons. So a short bow is not a great exchange for a cantrip if you don't get a +2. Especially when compared to Cantrips like Acid Splash that use a save.

In fact, your Class and Background selection will matter more than your pre-class selection. A High Elf Noble will have proficiency in Long Sword and Long Bow, 25 gp, and a cantrip from the wizard list. So, no matter what pre-class you choose, you will be a Warrior, Expert, and Caster rolled into one!

[Guy Lombard-O]

This actually looks like a fun and different experiment. I think it'd be a great change-up for a couple of sessions, and would end up feeling quite satisfying if your character survived to 1st level and beyond.


The equipment advantage would go away after one session. The items you list are common enough to be easily stolen in a typical village. But being able to cast a cantrip at will is a permanent advantage.

Got to agree with this. I took one look at your three pre-classes, and immediately dismissed the Expert. Not sure if it's wise, but equipment feels like something you can beg, borrow, steal or kill for, and just pick up along the way. So the one extra skill from Expert feels like the real payout, and it just isn't enough.

[Nefariis]

Grognerd actually is putting together soem homebrewed 0-1st Level classes in another thread. (It's awesome, I'm excited about it, and I even contributed a bit)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601368-The-Menophyrus-Academy

You could potentially take a look at that and see if it strikes your fancy or could be of some use.

I was just going to post this - these characters are awesome.