The Land Fights for Us! - A palate of some nature-themed spell combos

[Renduaz]

Did you get the reference in the title? Either way, let's get started: This is just a small selection of some nature-themed spell combos, several of which are original, that I find to be equal parts cool and powerful.

Zuggtmoy's Present

Requirements: A Gas Spore, Magnificent Mansion, Dispel Magic, and a steady supply of small beasts

Hey kids, wanna commit some war crimes with magical biological weapons? Just capture a single Gas Spore ( Or more if possible ), create a Magnificent Mansion with one massive imprisonment chamber and an 'airlock' hallway leading from the entrance to a doorway, then to a short hall, and another sealed door with some kind of chute. Dump the Gas Spore inside the chamber and order your ghostly servants to periodically transfer tiny, yet ferocious beasts ( Rats, grubs, etc. ) that you acquire into the chamber. At some point, conflict with the Gas Spore should ensue ( Although there are various ways to just kill it outright yourself from afar if it doesn't ) which will then infect a hefty amount of your low CON fodder with a Gas Spore infestation ( Gas Spores are immune to their own poison damage, by the way ). In what should be an incredibly short time, considering the full size of the Gas Spores is irrelevant and even hindering to our purposes, you should have a chamber filled with hundreds and hundreds of spawned Gas Spores.

Next up, identify a highly populated villain lair or locale which you really dislike but at the same time not immune to poison damage, find an opportune hub or spot to infiltrate, and create the mansion's doorway within. Get ready to bamf the **** out with something like a Contingent Dimension Door before Dispeling your own Mansion. All creatures previously inside the Mansion are ejected into the nearest open spaces around the doorway.

Unshackled Awaken

Requirements: Awaken, Feeblemind, a Myconid Sovereign or Treant

Spell limitations? Who needs these? If you can Feeblemind a given Plant, you can subsequently either capture it or incapacitate it and proceed to Awaken it, even if it previously had a high intelligence. The two top contenders for this combination are the Myconid sovereign ( Which you might want to cover with something while traveling with in sunlight ) and the Treant. A Myconid Sovereign's Animating Spores can turn any dead humanoid or large or smaller beast that you killed into a Spore Servant fighting at your side for at least 2 weeks, and the Sovereign can perform it 3 times a day. Meanwhile the Treant can create two Awakened trees a day to fight alongside you, even making them take root when needed.

Dawn of the Ooze Replicators

Requirements: An Ochre Jelly or Black Pudding, Enlarge/Reduce, Slashing and Lighting damage, Massive resilient containment spaces and optionally Spell Mastery

So uh, can you think of a use for a million corrosive Black Puddings or Ochre Jellys? No? How about a billion? because I've kind of found a way to adapt their 'Split' ability into what shall we call it? New heights, or lows, depending on your perspective. All you really need is one Black Pudding ( Which is more potent, but an Ochre Jelly is fine too ), the Enlarge/Reduce spell, some containment mechanism, and the ability to safely inflict slashing or lightning damage ( A halberd or Glaive, preferably magical ones work pretty nicely for this, but honestly any lighting or slashing cantrip or simple slashing attacks is fine too. 1d8 acid damage from a trapped ooze should'nt be an issue, or you can even make some kind of servant/trap/machine do it ).

Basically you want to put your pudding into a non-vulnerable, large pit or enclosure ( possibly made of stone ), split it until it's 8 Small-sized puddings, and then simply cast Enlarge on a given Small pudding, which then enables you to hit it again and create yet another two Small-sized Puddings, a process that you can Rinse and Repeat for infinite Puddings. Admittedly an initially slow process, unless you were an 18 level Wizard with Spell Mastery, in which case.. not only could you first of all probably just make yourself into a 'starter ooze' if you can't acquire one, but you can now expand your Pudding farm indefinitely. If you were to spend 24 hours casting Enlarge and poking/shocking an Ooze, for every 6 seconds, that's 14,400 more oozes per day. Not bad if I do say so myself. Of course it would be finding somewhere to store them that's probably going to be the hard part.. A series of interconnected Demiplanes might do the trick for lack of a better option. Going for full-blown mad scientist, I would recommend some kind of sealed prison-esque enclosure much like with our gas spores, coupled with some kind of Adamantine/Mithral vat with a narrow opening for slashing weaponry ( Which might even be automated somehow ) and a locked slide off to the side. Once the Ooze inside is split, open the chute long enough for one to slide down into the holding area, then close and bar from outside again, trapping a singular Small Ooze for the process to begin anew.

Practical Applications? What, you're telling me that an infinite Replicator farm isn't good enough by itself? Well, I suppose at very low levels you could always sell them as basically infinite sources of solvent material, or just carry one in a shielded container and duplicate it whenever you want to breach some kind of wood or metal. Probably very good against locks. seeing as you're pretty much just creating new ones out of thin air as long as you got an Enlarge spell left. At the highest level, might just open up a Gate at the bottom of your holding pens and link to the other side to some place you really aren't happy with. Maybe the Iron City of Dis? If they were foolish enough to enable it the first time around, that's probably going to be enough for Dis to go "OH GOD WHAT IS HAPPENING" as the place suddenly gets flooded with tens of thousands of puddings and for you to get permanently banned from opening Gates to the Nine Hells alongside being on Asmodeus's hitlist, provided they could trace it back to you.

You shall not Advance

Requirements: Plant Growth, Conjure Fey or Conjure Animals or Conjure Minor Elementals, Caltrop bags

This is a pretty simple low-level combination, but a potent one. You'll need the spell Plant Growth, several bags of caltrops conveniently within reach, and preferably a spell like Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings or Conjure Elementals. When in natural landscape and assaulted by grounded enemies, you'll want to cast Plant Growth in order to slow them down and then create 8 1/4 flying creatures, ordering them on their turn to grab the caltrops and spread them out in the perimeter around you, bringing almost anything that must move on land to an almost complete halt.

Stoneshaper's Rockfall

Requirements: Conjure Fey

A well-known combination, this one involves Conjuring Fey to summon a Korred, which in turn Conjures Elemntal to summon a Galeb Duhr, which in turn animates two boulders it can see.

Heart of the Swarm

Requirements: Tiny Servant, Wish, Animal Shapes

Another high-level combination primarily for Wizards, which entails essentially spending some time creating tons of Tiny Servants which are then transformed via Animal Shapes ( using Wish ) into a flock of hundreds of Giant Eagles or pretty much any CR4 or lower beast you want them to be at any given point in time for 24 hours. If you want a more extensive rundown, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543146-Heart-of-The-Swarm-1000-to-2000-damage-with-a-bonus-action-(-Tiny-Servant-)).

Honorable Mold Mentions

Requirements: Brown Mold and Fire sources, Russet Mold and Beasts

These ones are mostly self-explanatory and not exactly spell combos, but it's worth nothing that you can pull off some great stunts by using Brown Mold with a Flame Sphere for instance, or grow a small army of Vegepygmies if you can get a sample of Russet Mold and constantly feed it's cultivation chamber with beasts or humanoid if you are so inclined, though I'm not really sure what you'd do with them. But they're Neutral and intelligent, so they might agree to serve you for increasing their ranks so efficiently.

P.S.A

In case you need tips, pointers or methods of capturing, neutralizing, and subduing various monsters in a myriad ways, the Tome of Harnessing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559623-Mordenkainen-s-Tome-of-Harnessing-A-Player-utility-guide-for-the-new-creatures) covers that pretty extensively in the opening chapter.

[ImproperJustice]

These are fun. Thank you for sharing!

Not as exciting, but how about Whirlwind / Watery Sphere + Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or any other spell which requires a Dex Save.

The first two spells hold a couple targets in close proximity and then they fail their Dex saves for full damage.

Works extremely well with a Sorceror who can use an action to move the control spell holding enemies close to others to draw more foes into the AoE, then Quicken the offensive spell.

[Renduaz]

These are fun. Thank you for sharing!

Not as exciting, but how about Whirlwind / Watery Sphere + Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or any other spell which requires a Dex Save.

The first two spells hold a couple targets in close proximity and then they fail their Dex saves for full damage.

Works extremely well with a Sorceror who can use an action to move the control spell holding enemies close to others to draw more foes into the AoE, then Quicken the offensive spell.

Seems pretty effective to me, kind of reminds me of luring enemies into one place to AOE them in games like Diablo.

[AdAstra]

Note that each black pudding created by the splitting has half the hit points of the progenitor. So you'd need some form of magical healing to bring the puddings back to full health, and splitting a 1 HP black pudding would kill it due to rounding down.

Also it would be up to DM discretion as to what happens when Enlarge/Reduce wears off. Does it "stay" on the split puddings, or does the spell just disappear despite its effects lingering? I would definitely rule that once the spell ended the puddings would shrink down a size, making them ineligible for further splitting. Once you've enlarged a Small pudding and split it, the two new ones, which started out Small, would shrink to Tiny once the spell ended, which is too small to split even if you cast Enlarge.

[Kane0]

I really like the spore-bomb. I can just imagine a cabal of druid eco-terrorists cackling in some remote corner of the realm.

[noob]

Note that each black pudding created by the splitting has half the hit points of the progenitor. So you'd need some form of magical healing to bring the puddings back to full health, and splitting a 1 HP black pudding would kill it due to rounding down.

Also it would be up to DM discretion as to what happens when Enlarge/Reduce wears off. Does it "stay" on the split puddings, or does the spell just disappear despite its effects lingering? I would definitely rule that once the spell ended the puddings would shrink down a size, making them ineligible for further splitting. Once you've enlarged a Small pudding and split it, the two new ones, which started out Small, would shrink to Tiny once the spell ended, which is too small to split even if you cast Enlarge.

Except that enlarge is concentration based and single target so since the two oozes are identical copies of the original but one size smaller then it means that due to enlarge being unable to work on two oozes at once that essentially either enlarge stops at the splitting(with unknown effects) or that you suddenly have your head explode from concentrating on two spells at once.

[Renduaz]

Note that each black pudding created by the splitting has half the hit points of the progenitor. So you'd need some form of magical healing to bring the puddings back to full health, and splitting a 1 HP black pudding would kill it due to rounding down.

Also it would be up to DM discretion as to what happens when Enlarge/Reduce wears off. Does it "stay" on the split puddings, or does the spell just disappear despite its effects lingering? I would definitely rule that once the spell ended the puddings would shrink down a size, making them ineligible for further splitting. Once you've enlarged a Small pudding and split it, the two new ones, which started out Small, would shrink to Tiny once the spell ended, which is too small to split even if you cast Enlarge.

True regarding the HP, it's probably going to slow the replication rate quite a bit, but I figured a way it can be worked around with 2 levels in Cleric/Paladin ( Or having one in the party ) - If you've got a 10hp Ooze, split it into 2 5hp Oozes, then cast Aid on both to raise their HP maximum and current HP to 10, at which point both can be Enlarged and split again.

As for Enlarge/Reduce, I'm already assuming that it wears off upon splitting. There's no reason why the two new ones would shrink though - The initial Ooze is medium and splits into two new ( New, completely different creatures ) Oozes derived from it's previous size which are both Small just by virtue of their creation without any spell attached to them.

[MaxWilson]

Dawn of the Ooze Replicators

Requirements: An Ochre Jelly or Black Pudding, Enlarge/Reduce, Slashing and Lighting damage, Massive resilient containment spaces and optionally Spell Mastery

So uh, can you think of a use for a million corrosive Black Puddings or Ochre Jellys? No? How about a billion?... If you were to spend 24 hours casting Enlarge and poking/shocking an Ooze, for every 6 seconds, that's 14,400 more oozes per day...

Practical Applications? What, you're telling me that an infinite Replicator farm isn't good enough by itself?

One amusing practical application: create an arbitrarily-powerful Nabassu, either one you Planar Bound or else yourself in True Polymorph guise. Every black pudding you eat gives you five more hit dice, for a week, and you can eat six per hour. In eight hours of eating you'll be up by 240 hit dice (+2280 HP), which also adds 60d6 (210) to both of your melee attacks, claw and bite. In theory you could keep eating for several days straight, but... unless your goal is to kill Tiamat with a single opportunity attack and then eat her soul, why bother?

Actually come to think of it, you could probably sell your black puddings to someone in the Blood War for a ton of gold, because the Abyss probably would like to do exactly that.

[EdenIndustries]

Very interesting! Half-way through the post I thought, "This seems like a post by Renduaz, I wonder who made it?" And of course, sure enough, Renduaz it is. You never fail to amuse :)

[Renduaz]

One amusing practical application: create an arbitrarily-powerful Nabassu, either one you Planar Bound or else yourself in True Polymorph guise. Every black pudding you eat gives you five more hit dice, for a week, and you can eat six per hour. In eight hours of eating you'll be up by 240 hit dice (+2280 HP), which also adds 60d6 (210) to both of your melee attacks, claw and bite. In theory you could keep eating for several days straight, but... unless your goal is to kill Tiamat with a single opportunity attack and then eat her soul, why bother?

Actually come to think of it, you could probably sell your black puddings to someone in the Blood War for a ton of gold, because the Abyss probably would like to do exactly that.

Oh wow, I completely missed the potential of the Nabassu, though I imagine eating Black Pudding might not do wonders for your stomach, even as a fiend. You could probably just eat any small animal you put your mind to this way. Though I also did wonder, what the hell happens if you Shapechange or True Polymorph into a Black Pudding or Ochre Jelly and then use Split? There are two new Oozes, but... where exactly does that put you? Probably just ceasing to exist according to most DM rulings, which is a shame since I can think of quite a few shenanigans.

[AdAstra]

True regarding the HP, it's probably going to slow the replication rate quite a bit, but I figured a way it can be worked around with 2 levels in Cleric/Paladin ( Or having one in the party ) - If you've got a 10hp Ooze, split it into 2 5hp Oozes, then cast Aid on both to raise their HP maximum and current HP to 10, at which point both can be Enlarged and split again.

As for Enlarge/Reduce, I'm already assuming that it wears off upon splitting. There's no reason why the two new ones would shrink though - The initial Ooze is medium and splits into two new ( New, completely different creatures ) Oozes derived from it's previous size which are both Small just by virtue of their creation without any spell attached to them.

I mean from a mechanical perspective, sure, but like, assuming that this was a "real" world there is zero reason for it to work that way. The effects of Enlarge/Reduce don't suddenly become permanent when the target dies or is turned into something else. If you Enlarged a cow and cut off its head there's no logical reason for either part to stay big, even though now it's two different objects.

[Renduaz]

I mean from a mechanical perspective, sure, but like, assuming that this was a "real" world there is zero reason for it to work that way. The effects of Enlarge/Reduce don't suddenly become permanent when the target dies or is turned into something else. If you Enlarged a cow and cut off its head there's no logical reason for either part to stay big, even though now it's two different objects.

Not sure we understand each other, but I agree - the effect isn't permanent, it ends as soon as the target dies, but still achieves its purpose. You cast Enlarge on the small Pudding, which is now temporarily a Medium pudding while Enlarge is active. Pudding's Split reaction states that "When a pudding that is Medium or larger is subjected to lightning or slashing damage, it splits into two new jellies if it has at least 10 Hit Points. Each new jelly has Hit Points equal to half the original jelly's, rounded down. New jellies are one size smaller than the original jelly."

Our Pudding is Medium. As soon as it is subjected to the damage, while in Medium size, it splits into two new Puddings that are one size smaller, which means Small. It then ceases to exist, and the spell along with it, but the effect has already been accomplished - two brand new, Small-sized Puddings, which were created Small from inception now exist. They don't need a spell to continue being Small. The original Pudding is just gone, it no longer exists, it doesn't have any registered size at this point.

Edit: Also just realized another way of utilizing Small Black Puddings - True Polymorph yourself into a Clay Golem, or have one that you own, create a suit of armor for it from Adamantine or another resilient material with inner 'pockets' everywhere, cram the Puddings inside in a way that they are at least partially constantly touching the golem, don the armor, and gain perpetual regeneration of dozens of HP, with extra on top during the ooze's turn from attacks inflicted on you.

[AdAstra]

Our Pudding is Medium. As soon as it is subjected to the damage, while in Medium size, it splits into two new Puddings that are one size smaller, which means Small. It then ceases to exist, and the spell along with it, but the effect has already been accomplished - two brand new, Small-sized Puddings, which were created Small from inception now exist. They don't need a spell to continue being Small. The original Pudding is just gone, it no longer exists, it doesn't have any registered size at this point.

The problem is that the two new puddings are clearly made from the material of the original. The splitting rule basically represents the pudding not being a single indivisible creature, but an amorphous mass. The old black pudding isn't literally erased from existence, and the two new black puddings do not spontaneously appear out of nothing. The actual material being enlarged stays the same, so it should logically shrink when the spell ends.

[Renduaz]

The problem is that the two new puddings are clearly made from the material of the original. The splitting rule basically represents the pudding not being a single indivisible creature, but an amorphous mass. The old black pudding isn't literally erased from existence, and the two new black puddings do not spontaneously appear out of nothing. The actual material being enlarged stays the same, so it should logically shrink when the spell ends.

That's likely the RAI way of interpreting the process, yeah, but the RAW is more easily subverted. But at the same time, trying to apply that sort of RAI interpretation to the RAW can also lead to additional problems. The Enlarge spell, for instance, shouldn't end for at least one of the split halves which are still alive and functional, if both are said to be the cutting of the same living organism. If you enlarged a cow, or a human for that matter, and you cut off it's leg, or arm, or a flake of it's skin, it's going to stay enlarged. You might say that the cutoff part is no longer enlarged because it isn't a living creature, although the mutilated mass still is - the same goes for a mutilated ooze.

Then you have RAI such as - If the original amorphous mass has been set on fire ( that it must use an action to get off ), would the two splits still be on fire since they're the same material and have done nothing to extinguish it off? RAI Logic says yes. Actual RAW says no because they are defined as new Oozes which haven't been affected by anything yet. And the list goes on - Another example being, you cast Hold Monster on the original medium amorphous mass. Is there any reason for it to no longer be held if it splits? Extracircular logic says no, RAW says yes.

[MaxWilson]

Not sure we understand each other, but I agree - the effect isn't permanent, it ends as soon as the target dies, but still achieves its purpose. You cast Enlarge on the small Pudding, which is now temporarily a Medium pudding while Enlarge is active. Pudding's Split reaction states that "When a pudding that is Medium or larger is subjected to lightning or slashing damage, it splits into two new jellies if it has at least 10 Hit Points. Each new jelly has Hit Points equal to half the original jelly's, rounded down. New jellies are one size smaller than the original jelly."

Our Pudding is Medium. As soon as it is subjected to the damage, while in Medium size, it splits into two new Puddings that are one size smaller, which means Small.

I disagree actually. It's a Small pudding, temporarily enlarged to Medium, so the new puddings should be Tiny (possibly Enlarged to Small temporarily but it's unclear). Presumably you have to feed them or something to grow them larger.

[Renduaz]

I disagree actually. It's a Small pudding, temporarily enlarged to Medium, so the new puddings should be Tiny (possibly Enlarged to Small temporarily but it's unclear). Presumably you have to feed them or something to grow them larger.

RAW-Wise, why do you think it matters that it was a Small pudding, and that it is temporarily Medium due to Enlarge? I don't see any indication that the ability distinguishes between temporary and permanent. Enlarge/Reduce sets your 'Size' variable to Medium, if a computer program were to retrieve your Size string, it would just return 'Medium' - whether it's temporary or not isn't registered by any game mechanic. The New Jellies are one size smaller than the Jelly they split from, which means they'll be Small. They don't know anything about 'magic' or 'temporary', they just fulfill the RAW. Thinking that "It's not truly the reality because it's a temporary spell" comes from your own thoughts as a player, but isn't enshrined in RAW.

The newly created Oozes can't just go "Oh wait, we've just divined the information that our progenitor was actually Small without that spell that made it Medium temporarily, so we should now be Tiny" - that doesn't really have a basis for occurring.

[JNAProductions]

You're using RAW in a corner case to get an unrealistic (by the game's reality-obviously magic is itself not realistic) result.

Now, I will say that these tricks seem much better, for the most part, than your usual posts, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by insisting that RAW is a gospel that must be followed regardless of what makes sense.

[Renduaz]

You're using RAW in a corner case to get an unrealistic (by the game's reality-obviously magic is itself not realistic) result.

Now, I will say that these tricks seem much better, for the most part, than your usual posts, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by insisting that RAW is a gospel that must be followed regardless of what makes sense.

I'm not insisting that the RAW is gospel that must be followed, and I'm sorry if you understood it that way. I am arguing that it does cut the corner case if that's the parameter someone wishes to use, but both approaches are acceptable. On the other hand, as I've told AdAstra in the latest reply, there are also still some aspects of applying the 'RAI which makes sense' to the Ooze's nature that might start making progressively less sense or get more sketchy as you try to square it with how the game's RAW generally works. That is, if you are trying to maintain a consistent framework that the two Oozes are just the cut-in-half, yet still living parts of the same mass rather than just two brand new creatures without any questions asked about the process behind it.

[JNAProductions]

I'm not insisting that the RAW is gospel that must be followed, and I'm sorry if you understood it that way. I am arguing that it does cut the corner case if that's the parameter someone wishes to use, but both approaches are acceptable. On the other hand, as I've told AdAstra in the latest reply, there are also still some aspects of applying the 'RAI which makes sense' to the Ooze's nature that might start making progressively less sense or get more sketchy as you try to square it with how the game's RAW generally works.

If you have an Enlarged person and chop their arm off, the arm remains larger until the spell ends, then drops down to normal size.

I fail to see what wonkiness results from that.

[Renduaz]

If you have an Enlarged person and chop their arm off, the arm remains larger until the spell ends, then drops down to normal size.

I fail to see what wonkiness results from that.

The target that you're concentrating on is a creature. Do you consider a chopped-off arm, or a shred of skin, or a hair strand for that matter, to be defined as either creatures or as still being part of a creature for the purposes of spells, rather than inanimate objects that are no longer connected to it in any way? Because if you do, you're opening up a ****-ton of wokniness for a whole lot of spells.

[JNAProductions]

The target that you're concentrating on is a creature. Do you consider a chopped-off arm, or a shred of skin, or a hair strand for that matter, to be defined as either creatures or as still being part of a creature for the purposes of spells, rather than inanimate objects that are no longer connected to it in any way? Because if you do, you're opening up a ****-ton of wokniness for a whole lot of spells.

Wonkiness, such as... Examples?

Because while I'm perfectly willing to agree that it's not enshrined in RAW that it happens, it's such an easy and intuitive ruling that a DM who COULDN'T rule in this situation (not saying they need to get the exact same ruling as me-if they ruled that only the main creature stayed enlarged while the arm shrank down immediately, that'd be fine too, though less intuitive, I feel, than my ruling) is an incompetent DM.

The RAW is not the rules of the universe, it's an imperfect interface to function with the universe. Just as there's no rules for pulling levers or making a sandwich, there's no rules for every single possible monster/spell interaction.

[Renduaz]

Wonkiness, such as... Examples?

Because while I'm perfectly willing to agree that it's not enshrined in RAW that it happens, it's such an easy and intuitive ruling that a DM who COULDN'T rule in this situation (not saying they need to get the exact same ruling as me-if they ruled that only the main creature stayed enlarged while the arm shrank down immediately, that'd be fine too, though less intuitive, I feel, than my ruling) is an incompetent DM.

The RAW is not the rules of the universe, it's an imperfect interface to function with the universe. Just as there's no rules for pulling levers or making a sandwich, there's no rules for every single possible monster/spell interaction.

Well I can tell you that my intuition and that of probably a vast amount of other DM's ( You could try posing the question to any community of your choosing ) is that ruling that the creature stays enlarged, because it's the creature you're concentrating on, while the severed arm, or skin flake, or finger, or whatever, which are defined as objects in practically any other situation, immediately become unrelated objects and shrink back to original size for lack of concentration - seems far more natural and RAW-abiding.

And wonkiness such as... if your severed finger is still 'part of the creature' when it comes to maintaining the spell's concentration, is there any reason why I can't cast Suggestion on your severed Arm and have it affect you too? Or Polymorph into a Chicken, cut off a wing, have someone a mile away roast it, eat it, digest it, absorb it's nutrients, only for exactly what to happen in regards to all of that once my Polymorph drops? This all sounds like a fair bit of wonkiness.

[JNAProductions]

Well I can tell you that my intuition and that of probably a vast amount of other DM's ( You could try posing the question to any community of your choosing ) is that ruling that the creature stays enlarged, because it's the creature you're concentrating on, while the severed arm, or skin flake, or finger, or whatever, which are defined as objects in practically any other situation, immediately become unrelated objects and shrink back to original size for lack of concentration - seems far more natural and RAW-abiding.

And wonkiness such as... if your severed finger is still 'part of the creature' when it comes to maintaining the spell's concentration, is there any reason why I can't cast Suggestion on your severed Arm and have it affect you too? Or Polymorph into a Chicken, cut off a wing, have someone a mile away roast it, eat it, digest it, absorb it's nutrients, only for exactly what to happen all of that once my Polymorph drops? This all sounds like a fair bit of wonkiness.

Suggestion wouldn't work, because you're not your arm. (Plus, you have to be able to HEAR them to be suggested.)

If the spell starts by affecting you, it affects all of you, including parts that are cut off. But once cut off, you're two separate objects-the initial magic will linger, but further spells would have to target you separately.

As for your Polymorph example, what's even the RAW there? Do cut off parts become normal again immediately? What happens if you eat a Polymorphed creature without killing it first? (Say, by swallowing a fly whole?) That's a can of wonkiness no matter HOW you slice it, and one RAW has no answers for.

But, like I said, while I feel my ruling is the most intuitive, a DM who rules differently is fine. It's if a DM cannot rule in that situation that I'd find them incompetent.

[AdAstra]

Well a perfectly logical interpretation that results in no wonkiness would be that when the pudding splits into two completely different creatures the spell immediately ends, as do its effects. So the material that was enlarged returns to normal, thus the resultant puddings would immediately shrink down a size. If you say, cut off a character's arm while they're enlarged, the character should probably stay enlarged since it remains the same creature, but the arm will probably shrink immediately.

[JNAProductions]

Well a perfectly logical interpretation that results in no wonkiness would be that when the pudding splits into two completely different creatures the spell immediately ends, as do its effects. So the material that was enlarged returns to normal, thus the resultant puddings would immediately shrink down a size. If you say, cut off a character's arm while they're enlarged, the character should probably stay enlarged since it remains the same creature, but the arm will probably shrink immediately.

I disagree with that ruling-it feels more intuitive to me that the arm was affected originally, and would continue to be affected for so long as the caster Concentrates.

But, were you to be my DM and made that ruling... I'd shrug and go "Okay, cool." Because honestly, doesn't matter much either way in most situations.

[AdAstra]

I disagree with that ruling-it feels more intuitive to me that the arm was affected originally, and would continue to be affected for so long as the caster Concentrates.

But, were you to be my DM and made that ruling... I'd shrug and go "Okay, cool." Because honestly, doesn't matter much either way in most situations.

Yeah it's hard to care much. I could see the potential issue with the original way of doing it (spell continues on both parts until it ends) if people were generally inclined to cast buff spells on oozes, but, no, that's not going to happen often enough for the answer to matter. For debuff spells, oozes are immune to a whole lot of conditions, so again, not gonna make much difference either way.

[Renduaz]

Suggestion wouldn't work, because you're not your arm. (Plus, you have to be able to HEAR them to be suggested.)

If the spell starts by affecting you, it affects all of you, including parts that are cut off. But once cut off, you're two separate objects-the initial magic will linger, but further spells would have to target you separately.

As for your Polymorph example, what's even the RAW there? Do cut off parts become normal again immediately? What happens if you eat a Polymorphed creature without killing it first? (Say, by swallowing a fly whole?) That's a can of wonkiness no matter HOW you slice it, and one RAW has no answers for.

But, like I said, while I feel my ruling is the most intuitive, a DM who rules differently is fine. It's if a DM cannot rule in that situation that I'd find them incompetent.

Concentrating on a spell that you, as a creature, were the target of shouldn't work on that basis either. Moreso than that though I'll say that 'initial magic will linger' isn't really a ruling for something that has no answer, it's just a house rule. Enlarge/Reduce's target, the sole target which you are concentrating on, is ( in this case ) a creature. If it wasn't clear based on various monsters, adventure modules, and the like, WOTC treats any severed parts as separate entities, which can also be seen in the Regenerate spell - the creature and it's severed body parts are two separate entities, you target a creature with the spell and then hold a cutoff limb to it's stump.

There's no reason why concentration should extend to extra objects when you're concentrating on a single target, it just drops. Same with Greater Invisibility and Aura of Life for that matter - a severed finger can't be carried around to provide the benefits of Aura of Life just because it has been cast as a concentration spell on someone initially, that's wonkiness. And yes, both affect you - casting Enlarge on yourself as a creature makes you the target. If your severed arm isn't you, then concentrating on yourself does not apply to it either, hence there is no longer concentration and by RAW there is no longer a spell effect.

[JNAProductions]

So you'd rule differently. (By the way, a ruling is not a house rule.)

That's okay. AdAstra would also rule differently from me. And, as I told them, I'd have zero issues with that at the table, and likewise, they said they wouldn't have issues with my ruling at the table either.

[Renduaz]

So you'd rule differently. (By the way, a ruling is not a house rule.)

That's okay. AdAstra would also rule differently from me. And, as I told them, I'd have zero issues with that at the table, and likewise, they said they wouldn't have issues with my ruling at the table either.

Well, not exactly, I'd just follow the clear-cut RAW ( Which would be my decision, different decisions are valid too ), but a ruling which contradicts established RAW is a house rule. A severed limb is treated by RAW as a separate entity from the creature it belonged to. Casting Enlarge/Reduce requires you to target a single creature and maintain concentration. A chopped off arm becomes a separate object, therefore it's no longer the single target you're concentrating on, and no spell effects apply to it, simple as that.

As said, implying otherwise would also imply that the initial magic of Aura of Life or Aura Purity is going to 'linger' on a severed finger for the duration of concentration and you can hand it off to someone a mile away to benefit from the aura, which I don't believe that you personally would find reasonable. If the initial magic won't stick because the finger isn't you, then the same goes for the Enlarged arm - the target of concentration is you. If it isn't you, then there's nobody concentrating on keeping it enlarged.

[AdAstra]

So you'd rule differently. (By the way, a ruling is not a house rule.)

That's okay. AdAstra would also rule differently from me. And, as I told them, I'd have zero issues with that at the table, and likewise, they said they wouldn't have issues with my ruling at the table either.

And one thing's for sure, both rulings (spell lasts on both parts of the target until it ends normally or spell immediately ends on anything that isn't the original target) avoid the issue of permanent Enlarge/Reduce, which is a far more ridiculous outcome than anything yet posited about either.

[JNAProductions]

Alright, you've made good points as to why my ruling has weird implications. If this situation comes up in my game, I'll be sure to have severed bits not be affected by the initial spells.

Still doesn't help your argument-you're basically saying "See? That isn't reasonable! So if that's not reasonable, this other unreasonable thing HAS to work too!" Which doesn't work.

[MaxWilson]

RAW-Wise, why do you think it matters that it was a Small pudding, and that it is temporarily Medium due to Enlarge?

Because the text is ambiguous: it doesn't say the new pudding is one size smaller than the pudding's current size, but neither does it say that it's one size smaller than the pudding's permanent size. It just says "size", as if there's only one size, but clearly that's not true. Whoever wrote that text wasn't thinking in terms of Enlarge spells, so there's no RAW in play, and it's on the DM to make a judgment call.


I don't see any indication that the ability distinguishes between temporary and permanent. Enlarge/Reduce sets your 'Size' variable to Medium, if a computer program were to retrieve your Size string, it would just return 'Medium' - whether it's temporary or not isn't registered by any game mechanic.

I disagree, but that's fine. When you DM you can run it your way.


The New Jellies are one size smaller than the Jelly they split from, which means they'll be Small.

Which means they'll be Tiny, since that Pudding was a Small pudding (with an temporarily-enlarged size of Medium but that's irrelevant to the Black Pudding's ability).


They don't know anything about 'magic' or 'temporary', they just fulfill the RAW. Thinking that "It's not truly the reality because it's a temporary spell" comes from your own thoughts as a player, but isn't enshrined in RAW.

RAW is silent on the topic of enlarged black puddings being cleft in half, so I'm afraid RAW isn't going to be any help here.

[Renduaz]

Alright, you've made good points as to why my ruling has weird implications. If this situation comes up in my game, I'll be sure to have severed bits not be affected by the initial spells.

Still doesn't help your argument-you're basically saying "See? That isn't reasonable! So if that's not reasonable, this other unreasonable thing HAS to work too!" Which doesn't work.

Well, it's not just about the implications rather than the mechanics of spells and concentrating on a single target, but no matter. On the latter, I'm actually pointedly not contending that the Ooze splitting method is "reasonable" per-se, it's just plain cheese. A corner-case of RAW as you said, but I am saying that it does work if you just take RAW into account, given explanations that were previously discussed ( And further discussed below ). But if someone wants to adjudicate on the outcome based on their interpretation of the RAI, that's fine too.


Because the text is ambiguous: it doesn't say the new pudding is one size smaller than the pudding's current size, but neither does it say that it's one size smaller than the pudding's permanent size. It just says "size", as if there's only one size, but clearly that's not true. Whoever wrote that text wasn't thinking in terms of Enlarge spells, so there's no RAW in play, and it's on the DM to make a judgment call.



I disagree, but that's fine. When you DM you can run it your way.



Which means they'll be Tiny, since that Pudding was a Small pudding (with an temporarily-enlarged size of Medium but that's irrelevant to the Black Pudding's ability).



RAW is silent on the topic of enlarged black puddings being cleft in half, so I'm afraid RAW isn't going to be any help here.

You've spelled out the reason why it works by RAW - it just says size, 'as if there's only one size' ( AKA, Rules As Written, there is only one size, independent of what caused it or how long it lasts ). Which means that whatever you believe they should've done, the standing RAW is that there's only one Size checkbox that doesn't differentiate between 'permanent' or 'temporary'. The Ooze is ----Size Small---- and it's ----Size Medium---- once Enlarged. 'Temporary' simply doesn't factor into it and asserting that based on your opinion, it should, does not mean that RAW is silent. RAW is loud on there being only one size determination and there being no need to factor in the Size's temporal status.

When you're adhering to a law for example, adding stipulations to it which aren't there is your own personal modification. Someone who just reads it as it is, even if something seems to be lacking, isn't modifying it. Pudding size is Medium, new Puddings are created a size smaller, therefore they are created Small. Asking to cancel that result because you think that temporary size shouldn't count is a personal modification to the given parameters.

[MaxWilson]

When you're adhering to a law for example, adding stipulations to it which aren't there is your own personal modification. Someone who just reads it as it is, even if something seems to be lacking, isn't modifying it. Pudding size is Medium, new Puddings are created a size smaller, therefore they are created Small. Asking to cancel that result because you think that temporary size shouldn't count is a personal modification to the given parameters.

Well, it appears we disagree about that. But this is still a very fun thread.

[Renduaz]

Well, it appears we disagree about that. But this is still a very fun thread.

Glad to hear that, though I do think we agree on something fundamentally - That the RAW doesn't differentiate Size into two distinct categories, which can either be a fringe oversight or an indication that it doesn't matter whatsoever if we want to conjecture on the why of it. But in the absence of that, any kind of Small is just Small and any kind of Medium is just Medium, and Two Smalls are derived from a Medium. The perspective that a differentiation ought to apply and that because RAW does not make it, then the DM has to, is more of an extra layer of RAI from my perspective, but yeah, Replicator Oozes are pretty bad for the ecology anyway.

Elaborating a bit more for the sake of my own brainstorming, the distinction would only come into play if the two oozes 'carry over' the spell from the original, as Ad Astra recently said ( While adding that it does lead to problems ) - So O.G ooze would be Small enlarged to Medium and the new oozes could be Tiny enlarged to Small ( Perma+Temp variables ), thus satisfying the condition of being on size smaller than O.G ( By adapting in both aspects ). But then RAW is broken since the puddings are new creatures ( Not the same creature, like a mutilated human ) and O.G ooze is gone, which means no target for Enlarge, no concentration, and no reason for it to transfer to two brand new Oozes. So they can only derive their 'birth size' from the OG's given size upon damage, which is Medium.