Beef up Challenges: Making it Deadlier?

[kbob]

Just a curiosity question... I have a group that i run for. We like good ol fashion RP and laugh our butts off doing it. But we also have a fair amount of combat. More RP but combat is integral to our game. We all kind of like the philosophy that there should always be a chance of dying in game (though that is NEVER the goal). I always leave an escape (never had a TPK thankfully) unless the party does something unthinkably stupid (ie fry up some ancient dragon’s eggs right in front of her face). Thankfully they are not stupid players. There are some veterans but most of the players were new when shifted to 5e almost a year ago. They made noob mistakes and some char died in the process. They are getting a lot better now and im taking some of the breaks off (slowly incorporating more tactical moves from bosses and minions). So im looking for practical ways or maybe some examples/stories you have that make combat challenging and dangerous. The goal is NOT to kill the characters but we understand it will happen (poor choices, bad die roles, just a more challenging fight compared to other... i mix up the challenge ratings obviously). I do not want TPKs but if a char dies here and there it is part of the game aspect. We kind of like merging our RP style with an old school DnD “is my char gonna live?” combat style. It just makes it more fun to be on edge (even as a DM cheering for my players) and keeps the “game” aspect of “you can lose”. Im trying to be more and more “what would this/these monster(s) really do as the players continue to be more competent. Anyway, thoughts? Ideas? Be creative please. I know bigger CRs and more monsters (especially in 5e) so no need to mention that. But how do you make goblins deadly? Kobolds? Hags? Outsiders (ya i know 3e term)? (Fill in your favorite monster here). Char are currently 6-8 level but feel free to send higher CRs as they will level. Or lower if you just have a great idea or story and want to entertain us all with. I like good stories of characters biting it. 😈 muahahaha! Does anyone else here have a similar DM style. What do you do?

[Yunru]

The problem is the more resource depleting you make any single fight, the more you encourage that to be the only fight.

The trick is to keep in mind that the first 50% or so of fights in a day are going to seem easy. After all, the party is flush with resources during those fights. It's the last 50% that they'll seem deadlier, when they're running low on healing and monsters are surviving longer.

Another trick is to have multiple encounters staged as one protracted one.
If a goblin horde receives reinforcements in the fifth round, that's effectively an entirely separate encounter, but to the players it's all one tense engagement.

[Sparky McDibben]

See Matt Colville's video on Action-Oriented Monster Design for a good example of a souped-up goblin boss.

Other alternatives include mundane gear (caltrops, hunting traps incorporated into combat) and magic items like scrolls of fireball and lightning bolt. You could also increase goblin base attack and damage by +1 or +2 and assume they had magic weapon oils or something.

[Chugger]

As said above, it's okay if some fights are "easy". When you make all fights super-hard nail-biters barely-survived-it, the game becomes too "grindy" - too hard - exhausting and not fun. Sometimes chars get powerful - use their power - and the fight is over in 2 or 3 rounds, the enemy soundly thwacked.

But you also need the very tough fights, or it all seems too easy - which is also wrong.

Ways to make fights challenging: add lair actions. Add them on initiative counts if you want, like on Init count 20 one of 3 things can happen. And on init count ten one of two things can happen. This can be a jolt of electricity throughout the lair that doesn't hurt the badguys but does 6 damage to each char, 3 if they save. This is more than just a nuisance - anyone concentrating on a spell might lose concentration. Many familiars will die. Another thing that can happen is that random places on the map (perhaps roll where) become difficult terrain. Or pits randomly open up that have 20' drops - dex save 15 or fall and take 2d6 damage and be trapped unless you can get out. Or a blast of poison gas can fill the cavern - save DC 12 con or have the poisoned condition for 1 round. Or a blast of light - save whatever or be blind for 1 round. So many possibilities.

You can even have a way of stopping lair actions - a glowing gem seems to be causing them. Arcana 15 check tells the player which gem is doing it. The gem has ac 18 and is immune to some damage maybe, but can be hurt - and has ___ hit points.

If not a gem, it can be a magic skull - a magic device or machine of some sort - a crystal - a statue.

Lair Actions - give monsters lair actions. Maybe they get 3 per turn. So each time a char goes, the badguy can do a lair action at the end of a char's turn. This can be a free movement that grants no AoO. It can be a free or extra melee attack. It can cast a spell. It can scream and everyone saves or goes deaf for a turn - or is held as if hold person for a turn. Or it casts some other spell. Or it spews acid on someone. Or whatever.

You can give monsters damage resistance of various types.

You can create a lair action that HEALS the monsters. The solution can be just do more damage than they get healed. Or make an arcana check (or cast detect magic) to learn that the weird statue is doing the healing. It has ac 15 and 22 hit points and must be destroyed to win the fight (maybe the amount it heals increases each turn, if you wanna make it super hard).

Make sure what you use is something they can handle, or, if you realize mid-fight you've made your creatures way too powerful, back off. You can lower something's hitpoints - you can "forget" to do a lair action or legendary action - you can have it pick a legendary action that's not on your list but that doesn't hammer the party, if you realize you're hammering them too hard (the creature's legendary is to scan for invisible creatures - you just give it that power - justify it as it's paranoid that something invis might be about to strike it - but this doesn't hurt the party cuz none of them are invis - the important thing is that this turn it doesn't use its AoE cuz that might make the party TPK, and if they didn't screw up - if you feel you engineered thins way too hard, it's okay to soften the challenge - and the party need not know you're helping them, they can feel it was meant to work this way).

[Tanarii]

How many combats of what encounter difficulty do they normally have between each short rest?

How many combats of what encounter difficulty do they normally have between each long rest?

[MaxWilson]

It just makes it more fun to be on edge (even as a DM cheering for my players) and keeps the “game” aspect of “you can lose”. Im trying to be more and more “what would this/these monster(s) really do as the players continue to be more competent. Anyway, thoughts? Ideas? Be creative please. I know bigger CRs and more monsters (especially in 5e) so no need to mention that. But how do you make goblins deadly? Kobolds? Hags? Outsiders (ya i know 3e term)? (Fill in your favorite monster here). Char are currently 6-8 level but feel free to send higher CRs as they will level. Or lower if you just have a great idea or story and want to entertain us all with. I like good stories of characters biting it. 😈 muahahaha! Does anyone else here have a similar DM style. What do you do?

Aside from the obvious things like beefing up encounter difficulty (more monsters, higher CR) and adding more complex battlefields (more vertical movement like platforms, cliffs, pits, dangling ropes, and vertical tunnels), try adding more uncertainty to the game.

Risk = don't know the outcome but do know the approximate odds
Uncertainty = hidden information, don't even know how much risk there is

It's the difference between opening a door and seeing a Death Knight and three Wraiths, and not knowing if you'll win initiative as you Rage and charge into combat, vs. opening the door and seeing three Githyanki and not being completely sure whether, if you charge into combat, it might actually turn out to be three Wraiths who've been disguised under a Seeming spell by the lich who runs this section of the dungeon, or whether that lich or a Death Knight might be somewhere within earshot waiting to hit the party squishies from behind as soon as the party tanks have charged the wraiths and the party has committed their concentration to other spells.

Even if 60-80% of the time things turn out to be exactly what they look like (yup, they're Githyanki! and there's only three of them), the knowledge that it's possible that things are not as they seem can add fun dramatic tension, especially if there are clues that can let you correctly guess what is real and what isn't.

Also, make good use of secret doors, maps, riddles, magic items, and other affordances that can let players make things easier on themselves if they take advantage of them.

You may set up a dungeon level with a Star Spawn Larval Mage, a Star Spawn Seer, three Star Spawn Hulks, five Star Spawn Manglers, and a whole ton of gibbering Star Spawn Grues (60 or so)... tough fight for an 11th level party if they tackle it head-on, right? But then you scatter the Star Spawns around (weird cultic rituals for the Seer in the main hall, Manglers on patrol looking for intruders, Mage torturing prisoners, Hulks bodyguarding the Mage and Seer, and Grues everywhere, everywhere!) so that it takes at least a couple rounds for reinforcements to arrive once they see the PCs, and you make everyone but the Grues patient and smart enough to break contact and wait for reinforcements (especially Manglers, who are good at hiding) and/or to try to surround PCs, and all those extra restrictions on the Star Spawn make surviving a fight with them tough but maybe doable, like the space Marines in Aliens attacking the Alien hive and barely surviving thanks to Ripley and the APC.

Then you also add six or eight 4'-wide (Small-sized) tunnel shafts connecting this dungeon level to the Duergar dungeon level above and the aquatic shark- and Black Pudding-infested waters below, add a Clay Golem or Shield Guardian trapped in stone in a cavern reachable through one of those tunnels, place a riddle containing a command word for the Clay Golem/Shield Guardian somewhere nearby, and put a map for the tunnels in the Duergar's treasure vault where the PCs can purchase it from the Duergar or loot it after killing all the Duergar, and suddenly it starts looking not only doable but gameable and fun.

[kbob]

Thanks guys! These are some great ideas. It makes me want to get with some local DMs and war-game (play test) some of the suggestions and some ideas that I have.

[kbob]

How many combats of what encounter difficulty do they normally have between each short rest?

How many combats of what encounter difficulty do they normally have between each long rest?

We try to use what the DMG suggests but thats not always the case. Sometimes the story (and choices chars make) change this. So we try to average 5-6/day with 2-3 short rests but that certainly changes at times. Sometimes there are no short rests (though i try to avoid that if there are warlocks in the party) and sometimes they may get 2-3 short rests but are hitting 7-8 or 9 challenges in one run.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks guys! These are some great ideas. It makes me want to get with some local DMs and war-game (play test) some of the suggestions and some ideas that I have.

Sounds like fun. : )

Maybe run a few quick adventures with the premise, "everybody has to create a player character with a reason they urgently need to get rich now even if it's suicidal (massive gambling debts to a huge criminal organization, deathly-ill parent, desperately in love with an incredibly spoiled rich person and need to buy them presents, etc.) and let's run this here dungeon, which has lots of gold but sane people avoid at all costs because everyone who enters always winds up dead." Then at the end of each expedition into the dungeon, award 1XP for every gold piece (or equivalent in gems/luxury goods) the players manage to haul back to civilization, to represent the partial attainment of those goals (but of course more money is always desperately needed!). Rinse and repeat until PCs die horribly against some monsters, and then do it again with new PCs.

From experience, I'll note that one nice thing about this kind of campaign is that it works really well even if PCs have uneven levels: a new 1st level PC can join a group of 7th level PCs and not only is he not useless (he can shoot arrows and Help and probably has other unique talents, thanks to bounded accuracy and the 5E ruleset) but he will also quickly catch almost up to the other PCs in level after a few expeditions because of the shape of the XP curve: assuming an equal share of the treasure, when he's 7th level, they'll be 9th level, unless they've died and been replaced by even-newer PCs.

Don't forget to threaten to cut off the PCs' retreat sometimes (wandering monsters should move through the dungeon instead of sitting passively in their rooms all the time), and also to Jaquay the dungeon (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13132/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-part-5-jaquaying-for-fun-and-profit) so they don't have to slog through all of the kobolds and zombies and gnolls on levels 1-2 in order to resume their quest to win the treasure currently owned by the Salamanders and Sword Wraiths on levels 4-5.

Also if you want to you can bake it into your premise that all of these people desperately in need of money in the first session are 8th or 11th level, if you want to jump-start the campaign to the harder stuff like Mind Flayers and Glabrezus instead of zombies and gnolls. But I would start replacement characters either at level 1 or at most level 1d6, so that death has consequences. They'll catch up quickly anyway, per above.
You know, I am actually in the mood to run or play that kind of campaign. :) Maybe after the holidays...

[Tanarii]

We try to use what the DMG suggests but thats not always the case. Sometimes the story (and choices chars make) change this. So we try to average 5-6/day with 2-3 short rests but that certainly changes at times. Sometimes there are no short rests (though i try to avoid that if there are warlocks in the party) and sometimes they may get 2-3 short rests but are hitting 7-8 or 9 challenges in one run.
Okay. Are you fairly in control of the pacing? If so, you've got several dimensions you can play with, Encounter difficulty, encounters per short rest, and encounters per long rest.

Encounter difficulty explicitly included bumping it up by one level if the enemies have an advantage the players don't, such as terrain. So you're not restricted to higher CR or more creatures.

Can you tell if the players feel more challenged as they get further into the day? I find that usually if they facing a normal adventure pacing / difficulty per short rest, my players are usually willing to push on quite a bit further in the adventuring day, taking a third or even fourth short rest before a long rest. Otoh I have a unique rule: taking a long rest means pulling out of the adventuring site and ending the session. So that encourages them to push on.

Alternately you can start with a stronger than Deadly encounter before a first short rest, then give them a few Easy to Medium ones. Even if they short rest more than required, ending up with a Deadly one after a difficult start followed by a confidence boost for the easier ones can make a session end with a bang.

If you're not that in control of the pacing (ie it's more player determined) then you may just need to crank up difficulty via giving enemies advantages.

One thing to keep in mind: what seems like a walk-over to the DM can seem far more dangerous and stressful to players.