Xel'Naga vs. the Forerunners

[kpenguin]

Based on the scant information we have, who would win in this battle of ancient creator races?

[Eita]

Do they have their planet scouring technology? IE: Halo and Xel'Naga Temple.

[kpenguin]

Do they have their planet scouring technology? IE: Halo and Xel'Naga Temple.

Sure, but assume they wish to conquer, not destroy.

[Eita]

Hmm... Based off of only what we know, I'd say Xel'Naga if the Forerunner robots are effected by the Temple, Forerunners if they aren't.

We really don't know that much else except that the Xel'Naga have world ships.

[Emperor Tippy]

The Forerunners.

They created full fledged artificial planets and ring worlds. Their ground armor was 6 orders of magnitude greater than Spartan armor. They could manipulate time and space at will.

[Winterwind]

I agree with the Emperor.

The Xel'Naga's technology will presumably surpass that of the Protoss, but it was not sufficiently advanced to protect the Xel'Naga when both their creations turned on them. So they can't be that godlike.

I know next to nothing about the Forerunners, but the creation of a ringworld seems like a task beyond what I would presume the Xel'Naga would be capable of.

Only chance I could see for the Xel'Naga would be if they happened to be really powerful psychics, much more powerful than the Protoss in this regard as well, and the Forerunners had nothing to counter that (do they?). Given that Xel'Naga artifacts tend to be somewhat psychic in nature (like Khaydarin crystals), that might perhaps work.

[WNxHasoroth]

Its a non issue. The Forerunners are dead while the Xe'Naga exist still, if not on the material plane.

The Old Ones come around and kick all their asses though in my humble opinion haha!

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Xel'Naga got defeated by both the Primative Zerg and the Protoss. I'm guessing they have no real military power. You can't win a war with a few superweapons

The Xel'Naga would probably run away and wait until their enemies were all dead.

[Eita]

Well, you got to remember that those were surprise attacks. Also, they weren't really defeated by the Protoss. They just said, "Screw this!".

The Zerg however... Yeah. Should've seen that one coming.

[kpenguin]

Well, in a way, the Flood beat the Forerunners.

[....]

Xel'Naga win.

Why?

They created the Zerg.

Sure, the Zerg ate them, but the Flood ate the Forerunners, and I think we can all agree that the Zerg > the Flood.

[warty goblin]

Xel'Naga win.

Why?

They created the Zerg.

Sure, the Zerg ate them, but the Flood ate the Forerunners, and I think we can all agree that the Zerg > the Flood.

...er, no we don't agree that Zerg > Flood. I'd put them about equal, with a slight advantage to the flood honestly. And the flood didn't eat the Forerunners, they got Halo'd first.

The Xel'Naga end up as Zerg food and can't do anything about it, while the Forerunners are able to at least see the writing on the wall and take most of the Flood down with them. I'm sorry but the Xel'Naga never show anything like the ability to construct a weapon as destructive or technologically advanced as a Halo- I'd hate to think of what sort of weapons they could put on a warship.
"Well Captain, we've traced the Xel'Naga to somewhere in these dozen star systems"
"Very good Luitenent, kill everything in all of them right now"
"Yes sir"
<five minutes later>
"Sir, everything in this sector of the galaxy is dead"
"good, set course for home"

[Winterwind]

Do the Forerunners exhibit any kind of psychic powers? Because if not, I could well imagine the Xel'Naga mind controlling them into oblivion. Their technology is powered by psionic energy, the Khaydarin crystals used as foci by the Protoss are actually artifacts handed down from the Xel'Naga, and both their creations exhibit certain psionic powers (yes, the Zerg too, since that's essentially what the Overmind-Cerebrate-Overlord network is). So I believe the Xel'Naga were psions next to whom the mighty Protoss would pale.

If they can't win by psi they will lose horribly though. Their technology and especially combat applicability of their technology seem to be far below that of the Forerunners.

[warty goblin]

Do the Forerunners exhibit any kind of psychic powers? Because if not, I could well imagine the Xel'Naga mind controlling them into oblivion. Their technology is powered by psionic energy, the Khaydarin crystals used as foci by the Protoss are actually artifacts handed down from the Xel'Naga, and both their creations exhibit certain psionic powers (yes, the Zerg too, since that's essentially what the Overmind-Cerebrate-Overlord network is). So I believe the Xel'Naga were psions next to whom the mighty Protoss would pale.

If they can't win by psi they will lose horribly though. Their technology and especially combat applicability of their technology seem to be far below that of the Forerunners.


I'm not sure how much psyionics will help against a foe that can likely destroy the Xel'nagga and their pretty little Protoss too from light-years away.

[Winterwind]

I'm not sure how much psyionics will help against a foe that can likely destroy the Xel'nagga and their pretty little Protoss too from light-years away.The Forerunners can do that? :smalleek:
Okay, then it really is not much of a contest.

[warty goblin]

Well, that's basically what the Halos do, so I'm extrapolating that they could probably scale down and target the technology to some degree, so that they could just kill everything in a single area of space, as opposed to the entire galaxy. Against an enemy like the Flood, galactic purge is the way to go, but to stop a single and rather smaller group of enemies, I'd imagine that they would just wipe a single part of space.

Note that I have absolutely no evidence that they can do that, merely that they can build Halos, and thus have the technology to kill stuff from absurd distances. Everything else, is as I said, merely extrapolation and guesswork.

[Winterwind]

I see.

Still, a good point. I'm going to cast my vote in favour of the Forerunners as well then.

[Eita]

Yes, the Forerunners can kill from absurd distances.

Note however that said destruction radiates from a fixed point.

Everything in range is destroyed.

Including the stupid sap who fired the thing.

[TSGames]

Do the Forerunners exhibit any kind of psychic powers? Because if not, I could well imagine the Xel'Naga mind controlling them into oblivion. Their technology is powered by psionic energy, the Khaydarin crystals used as foci by the Protoss are actually artifacts handed down from the Xel'Naga, and both their creations exhibit certain psionic powers (yes, the Zerg too, since that's essentially what the Overmind-Cerebrate-Overlord network is). So I believe the Xel'Naga were psions next to whom the mighty Protoss would pale.


Actually, I'm not entirely convinced that they are that psionic. Here's something about that:

* SC:L - How were the Uraj and Khalis crystals created, why, and how did they end up where they were in Brood War?

* Metzen -
o How and why were the crystals created? When Xel'naga came down to Aiur, they taught the Protoss many things, including advancements in the technological, biological, and psionic realms. The Protoss' understanding grew, and in their pride the Protoss began to value personal accomplishments more than communal advancement. At first the Xel'naga were intrigued at this turn of affairs and encouraged it. To that end the Xel'naga decided to conduct an experiment of sorts. They cut twin shards out of a monolithic Khaydarin crystal. One shard, named the Uraj by the Xel'naga, was entrusted to the Akilae tribe, many of whose members were mighty warriors. The other shard, named the Khalis by the Xel'naga, was entrusted to the Sargas tribe, many of whose members also excelled at fighting, though their combat style tended more toward stealth and assassination. From that point on, the Xel'naga kept watch over the twin crystals, observing the changes they underwent. Both crystals were venerated as sacred relics by the tribes to which they had been entrusted, but their different environments altered the crystals over time. As the tribes drew further apart from one another, the Uraj and Khalis mirrored this growing divergence, and their energies--even their appearances--became quite different.
o How did the Uraj end up on Braxis? After the Xel'naga departed Aiur, the Protoss turned on one another, and each of the two tribes hid its crystal away until the Aeon of Strife came to an end. For a time the Templar caste kept watch over the Uraj and used it in their meditations. When the Protoss first began exploring space again, they triumphantly carried the Uraj with them to one of the first colony worlds, Khyrador, and installed it in a place of honor in the colony. Later, mysterious and violent psionic storms broke out on Aiur and its colonies, including Khyrador. Protoss on Khyrador hastily fled the planet and returned to Aiur, leaving many treasured items behind, including the Uraj.
o How did the Khalis end up on Char? The Khalis remained with the Sargas tribe until the dark templar were banished from Aiur. Shortly afterward it was discovered that the exiles had stolen the Khalis and taken it with them. Some time after the dark templar settled on Shakuras, they (like the Protoss of Aiur) encountered the probes of the Zerg. Further investigation eventually led the dark templar to Char. The dark templar, like their kin back on Aiur, were greatly concerned about the Zerg and chose to test themselves in battle against small bands of Zerg on Char. The Zerg proved frighteningly resilient and numerous, and so the dark templar brought the Khalis to Char so that they might try to wield its energies against the Zerg. Although the Zerg did take casualties, the Overmind soon launched a massive counterattack, overwhelmed the Protoss, and claimed the Khalis. The crystal was left behind on Char when the Swarm went to invade Aiur.

source:
http://www.sclegacy.com/content/interviews-6/scl-metzen-interview---lore-exclusive-28/


Probably more than you wanted to know...

[Winterwind]

Actually, I'm not entirely convinced that they are that psionic. Here's something about that:Well, it does say they taught the Protoss about psionics... I assume your point is that if they were that powerful psions they wouldn't have had need to conduct that experiment, knowing what would happen beforehand, right?
Might be true, might be not. They might have also wanted to put the Protoss' psionic powers to a test.

[TSGames]

Well, it does say they taught the Protoss about psionics... I assume your point is that if they were that powerful psions they wouldn't have had need to conduct that experiment, knowing what would happen beforehand, right?
Might be true, might be not. They might have also wanted to put the Protoss' psionic powers to a test.

Pretty much hit it on the head. It seems to me that the Protoss made the crystals powerful, and not their creators. Although, Duran(who I can only assume to be a Xel'naga) was able to make Kerrigan think he was infested, which should require a lot of psychic manipulation, so I'm not really sure...

[Winterwind]

Pretty much hit it on the head. It seems to me that the Protoss made the crystals powerful, and not their creators. Although, Duran(who I can only assume to be a Xel'naga) was able to make Kerrigan think he was infested, which should require a lot of psychic manipulation, so I'm not really sure...I actually am not sure whether Duran is working for the Xel'Naga - back when I played that bonus mission I actually thought that he did not. The Xel'Naga seem to be rather peaceful benefactors than villains who would pull of such a scheme. They might have been corrupted in the meanwhile, that would be a common theme in Blizzard's stories, and it would save introducing something entirely new, but my impression was that Duran was working for the Shadow counterpart to the Xel'Naga Vorlons. :smallwink:

[Belteshazzar]

Hmm well it would be good to keep in mind that I have heard that the Halo weapon's system were not originally designed to function as a weapon. I believe one of the terminals in Halo 3 hinted that the Forerunners would have to slightly modify it somewhat. As to their original function who knows, but perhaps the Prophets of the Covenant were not entirely wrong.
As for who would win? I think that the Xel'Naga don't have the advantage of numbers as their entire race went extinct when an unfinished lab experiment simply tricked them into believing it was unable to leave the planet. Granted the zerg or more horrendous than the flood in my eyes but the zerg were very weak at this point and the only recognizable core strain they had at this time would be the Overlord. I am not sure if even the Overmind was fully developed before it devoured the supersapient Xel' Naga. If their entire civalization was wiped out in a few days by such a small scale attack (intrastellar) yet the Forerunners were battling the flood for centuries across the galaxy?

P.S. Oh and I believe that the entire Halo /Marathon /Pathways of Darkness series had more than a few Cthuthlian type entities of pure badness and such running around (a dead one still imprisoned under a South American pyramid) and yet the Forerunners still managed to survive most of them. It was only predictable that they would eventually fall to one of these foes eventually.

[Hannes]

The Xel'Naga seem to be rather peaceful benefactors than villains who would pull of such a scheme. They might have been corrupted in the meanwhile, that would be a common theme in Blizzard's stories, and it would save introducing something entirely new, but my impression was that Duran was working for the Shadow counterpart to the Xel'Naga Vorlons. :smallwink:

I think the Xel'Naga are rather pissed after they decided they failed with the Protoss and the Zerg almost eliminated them all...

[Winterwind]

I think the Xel'Naga are rather pissed after they decided they failed with the Protoss and the Zerg almost eliminated them all...Maybe, but, unless that caused a complete Heel Face Turn in their philosophy, they should realise that by now the Protoss have become pretty much exactly what they wanted them to be (and also rather close to what the Xel'Naga used to be like).

[Hannes]

Maybe there is only one family of Xel'Naga left who wants to kill -every living organism-?

[Winterwind]

Maybe there is only one family of Xel'Naga left who wants to kill -every living organism-?Not so much kill as make that supposedly perfect combination of Purity of Essence and Form, ergo the Protoss-Zerg hybrid.

I should clarify, I think it is quite likely that Duran is indeed working for the Xel'Naga (also due to the fact that Chris Metzen seems to really like the concept of a race becoming corrupted by trauma and hatred), but I wouldn't take it for a fact yet.

[Hannes]

Well, might it be Duran IS infested and just lied to Zeratul?

[Winterwind]

Well, might it be Duran IS infested and just lied to Zeratul?Unlikely. For one, there was a Protoss/Zerg hybrid on that planet, and how would Duran have known about it?

Second, if he were infested he should be under Kerrigan's control. But he isn't - in the briefing of the last mission of the Zerg campaign (which is the mission right after that bonus mission with Duran) Kerrigan complains that Duran has disappeared and she has no idea where he has gone to.

And third, metaplot reasons. You do not set up a secret like this and make it all turn out to be wrong after 10 years, the fans would tear you apart.

[Hannes]

Duran is a Terran Ghost and broke free of infestment?

[Winterwind]

Duran is a Terran Ghost and broke free of infestment?That would require that to be possible, which is a huge assumption. Also, what reason could he have to say the things he said to Zeratul in this case?
Plus, the aforementioned metaplot reason. Blizzard wouldn't do this.

[Hannes]

Point is, I don't remember even the gist of what he said to Zeratul. Only about making a hybrid and not being infested or something.

[Winterwind]

He says that he is the servant of an ancient power that lay dormant for ages, and implies that by his standards, Zeratul himself is young. He claims that violence (Zeratul's desire to destroy the hybrid) is typical, but will accomplish nothing, for he has scattered the hybrids on many hundreds of distant worlds (yes, he claims to have done so himself), so that Zeratul could never find them in time before they awaken and change everything.

EDIT: Ah, here (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Samir_Duran) we go:
# Duran: "Magnificent isn't it?"
# Zeratul: "What? Who are you?"
# Duran: "I've had many names throughout the millennia, young prodigal. You would know me best as Samir Duran."
# Zeratul: "Kerrigan's consort! Is this part of her twisted schemes?"
# Duran: "No. Young Kerrigan could not have engineered this grand experiment. Although her rebirth into the Zerg Swarm has sped up my progress, I can assure you that this endeavor is quite beyond her narrow understanding."
# Zeratul: "If you are not her pawn, then what are you?"
# Duran: "I am a servant of a far greater power. A power that has slept for countless ages. And is reflected in the creature within that cell."
# Zeratul: "Have you any conception of what you've created here? Do you have any idea what this... this Hybrid is capable of?"
# Duran: "Of course I do. This creature is the completion of a cycle. It's role in the cosmic order was preordained when the stars were young. Behold the culmination of your history."
# Zeratul: "All I behold is an abomination."
# Duran: "Your violence, young prodigal, is typical. As is your inability to comprehend the greater scheme of things. You can destroy all of the specimens here. It will do you no good. For I have seeded the Hybrid on many, many worlds. You will never find them all before they awaken... And when they do... your universe will be changed... forever."

[Hannes]

Ah. Insight. Well, we now know what most probably happens in SC2!

[Dervag]

Well, we know what starts to happen. We know what Duran plans to happen, or part of it at any rate.

No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy.