3.5 I need help with some character optimisation

[Trandir]

Well I' m gonna DM a one-shot and the players aren't exactly used to 3.5 character building. So they asked me halp to build their PCs.

One wants to play an elf that fights melee and uses spells for utility or to gain advantage against non magical opponents. Duskblade looks like an easy fit but I am also considering a clericzilla

One wants to play a LG tibbit paladin. So a charger build with his riding dog as special mount should be fine.

The third wants to play a thief with magic, quick and that can keep the distance in a fight. A beguiler is perfet here, lot of skills and all the magic you could want.


Any mose specific advice?

[denthor]

Cute?

Whip and net proficiency halberd as a weapon for close range trip. Cute enough?

[omegaghost]

Cute?

Whip and net proficiency halberd as a weapon for close range trip. Cute enough?

It's more lewd than cute. Maybe a hugging grappler would be cute?

[Gnaeus]

Cute paladin? Mounted lance wielding halfling on a riding dog. A big shaggy riding dog. (Called Ambrosius is optional).

3.5 magic using elf melee? Duskblade. There are stronger options but not stronger easy options.

[denthor]

It's more lewd than cute. Maybe a hugging grappler would be cute?


A hugging grappler is a monk not a paladin


Cute in this case refers to 2nd rank fighter. Net to capture you can trip and drag them around while alive. 10 foot range

Whip to trip subdue and keep alive 15 foot range

Halberd 5 foot range

All trip weapons for common theme.

[OnceUponAnAxe]

I second Duskblade as “out of the box” elf. You could also use a cleric of magic or something similar. You could also do the Book of Nine Swords for both of them. War blade Elf and Crusader “Paladin”.

[Trandir]

A hugging grappler is a monk not a paladin


Cute in this case refers to 2nd rank fighter. Net to capture you can trip and drag them around while alive. 10 foot range

Whip to trip subdue and keep alive 15 foot range

Halberd 5 foot range

All trip weapons for common theme.

I'd rather completely avoid grapple and trip for them.

[liquidformat]

Mystic Ranger would work well for the elf as well and would be just as easy as going duskblade. An Eternal Blade build would be another fun one. Mystic Ranger 11/Revenant Blade 5 could be a fun choice.

I will throw in halfling paladin ubermount build as my choice for cute paladin. Most basic being Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Wild plains outrider3/halflingoutrider10 but it can get a lot more optimized than that...

[16bearswutIdo]

The Elf: Duskblade, probably. Especially since they don't really know 3.5 build paths, otherwise I'd recommend something like Fighter1/BattleSorc6/Swiftblade, or Monk 2/Wizard 3/Enlightened Fist

Paladin: Halfling Paladin with a dog or Brixashulty mount, 100% no contest.

[satorian]

For the Paladin, go with Tibbit from Dragon Compendium. They're small like halflings, but can turn into fuzzy kitties. LA+0.

[liquidformat]

For the Paladin, go with Tibbit from Dragon Compendium. They're small like halflings, but can turn into fuzzy kitties. LA+0.

be sure to take a look at Fabulous Cats (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) to truly bring this concept to life!

[ExLibrisMortis]

For a cute third-level paladin-type, how about a tibbit bard 2/crusader 1 with Song of the White Raven and a masterwork war horn? Inspire Courage +2, nice maneuvers, can still charge in cat form. Use a deck of cards to track maneuvers, and it's not even hard to play.

[bean illus]

Well I' m gonna DM a one-shot and the players aren't exactly used to 3.5 character building. So they asked me halp to build their PCs.

One wants to play an elf that fights melee and uses spells for utility or to gain advantage against non magical opponents.

One wants to play a LG paladin that needs to be "cute".

The third has yet to decide what to play.

Any advice?

One shot? What levels?
For beginners straightforward builds with few classes/books.

Duskblade sounds great.

Halfling paladin of chubby halfling goddess, with sky high AC.

Sneak attack and skills? Rogue, scout or assassin? Yeah. A human AoO rogue sounds fun.

Or a barbarian dps?

[Trandir]

One shot? What levels?
For beginners straightforward builds with few classes/books.

Duskblade sounds great.

Halfling paladin of chubby halfling goddess, with sky high AC.

Sneak attack and skills? Rogue, scout or assassin?

I still need to decide the level.

And we to the final PC: a human thief possibly with some magic with knife and bow

[liquidformat]

I still need to decide the level.

And we to the final PC: a human thief possibly with some magic with knife and bow

rogue into assassin (avenger if they don't want to be evil) sounds like it fits the ticket well. swordsage into assassin could be interesting too.

Alternatively you could go beguiler or bard if you want more magic.

[Trandir]

rogue into assassin (avenger if they don't want to be evil) sounds like it fits the ticket well. swordsage into assassin could be interesting too.

Alternatively you could go beguiler or bard if you want more magic.

Problem is that he wants to play a thief rather than an assassin or similar.

[RatElemental]

For the cute paladin, it's not 100% rules legal (allowed as cohort but not character for some reason) and probably not optimal, but Petals are tiny sized and get a bunch of charisma, constitution and dexterity. A regular dog would be sized appropriately to be a mount, but so would an eagle. Specialize in the lance (or any reach weapon but lances get bonuses while charging) and they can hit adjacent squares I'm pretty sure too.

Imagine a tiny fairy in full plate mail charging into battle on the back of an eagle, I think it's fits the bill of cuteness.

[bean illus]

I still need to decide the level.

And we to the final PC: a human thief possibly with some magic with knife and bow

What's a thief? Do you mean a rogue, or a character that steals.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level?


Duskblade, or maybe Warblade into Suel Arcanamach or similar.

Single-class Paladin with Charging Smite in PH2, Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a war-trained riding dog, preferably use handle animal to add warbeast to it. Be sure to include Spirited Charge.

Beguiler base class in PH2, dip one level of Mindbender at 6th but otherwise stay single-classed. Thief does not equal Rogue, illusions and enchantments are better for thieving than sneak attacks.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well I' m gonna DM a one-shot and the players aren't exactly used to 3.5 character building. So they asked me halp to build their PCs.

One wants to play an elf that fights melee and uses spells for utility or to gain advantage against non magical opponents.

One wants to play a LG tibbit paladin.

The third wants to play a thief with magic, quick and that can keep the distance in a fight.


Any advice?

First one sounds like a Duskblade. Go with Grey Elf for +2 Int, and Weapon Finesse to take advantage of your high Dex compared to your Str penalties. Probably use a rapier, or maybe shell out for an Elven Courtblade (two handed weapon that you can use Weapon Finesse with), but that would require investing a feat in Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Alternatively, Psychic Warrior,any of the Tome of Battle classes, or even Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum) could work for the character concept, with the last one in particular being great for utility.

Rather than Paladin, I might recommend Crusader from ToB. Same fluff, but much cooler abilities. If you do want to stick with Paladin, take advantage of your small size to get a medium sized mount (like a cheetah). Either way, you're going to have crazy Dex bonuses, so Weapon Finesse is a must. It may also be worth investing in Improved Unarmed Strike, because you can use that in cat form alongside your claws and bite.

Spellthief seems like a natural fit for the third, and works well in a party with other casters.

[RatElemental]

Spellthief seems like a natural fit for the third, and works well in a party with other casters.

Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer are also both good options. They both progress sneak attack and spellcasting.

[Fizban]

Well I' m gonna DM a one-shot and the players aren't exactly used to 3.5 character building. So they asked me halp to build their PCs.
I'd like to point out that if you're the one running it, you're the only one who can determine how much optimization is needed. And if you're designing it, even moreso. Furthermore, if the players aren't used to 3.5 character building, I really doubt they're going to be able to run 3.5 optimized characters to their full potential, unless they're one-trick ponies.


Duskblade is the easiest for #1, though the only "advantage" it really tries to gain with magic is by having damage spells to use against high AC/DR foes that the sword doesn't work on/just massive single hits. Hexblade is more of a "gain advantage," but it also needs a number of fixes to really match the-

Paladin. Note that by having two melee characters, you have a problem with positioning: whoever goes first gets to take the prime spot, and whoever goes second has a high chance of not being able to charge or even reach melee without provoking an AoO, unless the other player leaves it open for them. Otherwise, you have to find out what the significance of the Tibbit is supposed to be. Presumably it's just there because lol cats, so it doesn't need to be optimized or anything. A Paladin will outshine a simple/un-fixed Hexblade with little effort, but otherwise the only things to really consider are mount or no-mount, and Battle Blessing or no Battle Blessing. You will of course want to make a short-list of spells for them to choose from.

PHB2 once again has a solution for #3, if you want a magic thief, Beguiler is the simplest magic thief, and possibly far too good at it. Being a straight caster it has no need to take up another spot in melee or worry about shooting into melee and soft cover penalties. Otherwise there's Spellthief, which is another Paladin-like, or another rogue/caster PrC, the simplest of which is probably Arcane Trickster.

Finally, if they're the type that wants to be able to improvise, Factotum is the mechanical representation of an improviser. Its magic is quite limited for some time, but eventually outpaces the Bard (in terms of usable top-level spells)- I do not recommend the standard Factotum optimization advice, which is all about cheesing a web article feat for a fistful of extra standard actions while effectively gaining full sneak attack from an Oriental Adventures samurai skill and a ridiculous "lol gnomes" weapon. Note that while sneak attack sounds like it's the powerful use of inspiration it's really not, as a +3 int bonus can be applied to each damage die without sneak attack restrictions, including such damage dice from say, a Magic Missile. A Factotum might aim for Manyshot, which gives multiple hits from a single attack roll (better efficiency for boosting that attack roll, also works with True Strike), and which is used as a standard action (allowing one to keep moving).


As for "quick and able to keep distance in a fight," that doesn't really require anything other than deciding to keep your distance and owning a magic item with some sort of speed boost. The 30' range on sneak attack (60' with much investment into using Crossbow Sniper) is the limit there, but again, Beguiler doesn't care. Nor does Factotum, if you're using inspiration to boost your basic damage rolls. The melee characters' op level requirement is entirely dependent on the power level of your game, but if one is a Duskblade then the Paladin will probably be sour about how much damage they deal with a single attack. This will be mitigated somewhat if they're a high enough level that the Paladin is on a cool monster mount (the Paladin's most powerful feature) and has a interesting set of spells to use with Battle Blessing (maybe even some wands, possibly in *ugh*, wand chambers). I would expect Dusk and Battle Blessing Paladin to do well with Beguiler, but basic Factotum will probably feel very lacking in power- but again, if they want improvisation/clever solutions rather than blunt mind magic, it could go fine.


Note that this party lacks a Cleric, which means that there's a whole bunch of stuff they can't prepare themselves for. You'll either need to supply one for them (regardless of Cure wands), or be even more careful when designing the adventure, unless one-shot means one session and survival doesn't matter.


Note also that this party can also be achieved quite easily by simply being very low level, with 1/1 or 2/1 multiclassing, and the right spells.

[Trandir]

What's a thief? Do you mean a rogue, or a character that steals.

Well a rogue is a bit general and also rogues aren't exactly good at stealing, basically anyone with magic can do it a little better than them.


What level?


Duskblade, or maybe Warblade into Suel Arcanamach or similar.

Single-class Paladin with Charging Smite in PH2, Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a war-trained riding dog, preferably use handle animal to add warbeast to it. Be sure to include Spirited Charge.

Beguiler base class in PH2, dip one level of Mindbender at 6th but otherwise stay single-classed. Thief does not equal Rogue, illusions and enchantments are better for thieving than sneak attacks.

Yet to decide but i'd say between 5 and 10.

Yep duskblade sounds about right.

I'd rather give the dog with special mount rather than wild cohort, it can ubercharge anyway.

Also sneak attack does not equal thief, and casters are better thieves than rogues for some reason. The beguiler fits the description with magic and skill points for everything.


First one sounds like a Duskblade. Go with Grey Elf for +2 Int, and Weapon Finesse to take advantage of your high Dex compared to your Str penalties. Probably use a rapier, or maybe shell out for an Elven Courtblade (two handed weapon that you can use Weapon Finesse with), but that would require investing a feat in Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Alternatively, Psychic Warrior,any of the Tome of Battle classes, or even Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum) could work for the character concept, with the last one in particular being great for utility.

Rather than Paladin, I might recommend Crusader from ToB. Same fluff, but much cooler abilities. If you do want to stick with Paladin, take advantage of your small size to get a medium sized mount (like a cheetah). Either way, you're going to have crazy Dex bonuses, so Weapon Finesse is a must. It may also be worth investing in Improved Unarmed Strike, because you can use that in cat form alongside your claws and bite.

Spellthief seems like a natural fit for the third, and works well in a party with other casters.

Now that I think of it the first one didn't specify that but I know him, he wants a Str build. Yes a know not exactly the best but for a fun time one can do this.

The second once specifically called for LG paladin. So probably we are going to se a partial ubercharger just to not outshine everyone else.




I'd like to point out that if you're the one running it, you're the only one who can determine how much optimization is needed. And if you're designing it, even moreso. Furthermore, if the players aren't used to 3.5 character building, I really doubt they're going to be able to run 3.5 optimized characters to their full potential, unless they're one-trick ponies.


Duskblade is the easiest for #1, though the only "advantage" it really tries to gain with magic is by having damage spells to use against high AC/DR foes that the sword doesn't work on/just massive single hits. Hexblade is more of a "gain advantage," but it also needs a number of fixes to really match the-

Paladin. Note that by having two melee characters, you have a problem with positioning: whoever goes first gets to take the prime spot, and whoever goes second has a high chance of not being able to charge or even reach melee without provoking an AoO, unless the other player leaves it open for them. Otherwise, you have to find out what the significance of the Tibbit is supposed to be. Presumably it's just there because lol cats, so it doesn't need to be optimized or anything. A Paladin will outshine a simple/un-fixed Hexblade with little effort, but otherwise the only things to really consider are mount or no-mount, and Battle Blessing or no Battle Blessing. You will of course want to make a short-list of spells for them to choose from.

PHB2 once again has a solution for #3, if you want a magic thief, Beguiler is the simplest magic thief, and possibly far too good at it. Being a straight caster it has no need to take up another spot in melee or worry about shooting into melee and soft cover penalties. Otherwise there's Spellthief, which is another Paladin-like, or another rogue/caster PrC, the simplest of which is probably Arcane Trickster.

Finally, if they're the type that wants to be able to improvise, Factotum is the mechanical representation of an improviser. Its magic is quite limited for some time, but eventually outpaces the Bard (in terms of usable top-level spells)- I do not recommend the standard Factotum optimization advice, which is all about cheesing a web article feat for a fistful of extra standard actions while effectively gaining full sneak attack from an Oriental Adventures samurai skill and a ridiculous "lol gnomes" weapon. Note that while sneak attack sounds like it's the powerful use of inspiration it's really not, as a +3 int bonus can be applied to each damage die without sneak attack restrictions, including such damage dice from say, a Magic Missile. A Factotum might aim for Manyshot, which gives multiple hits from a single attack roll (better efficiency for boosting that attack roll, also works with True Strike), and which is used as a standard action (allowing one to keep moving).


As for "quick and able to keep distance in a fight," that doesn't really require anything other than deciding to keep your distance and owning a magic item with some sort of speed boost. The 30' range on sneak attack (60' with much investment into using Crossbow Sniper) is the limit there, but again, Beguiler doesn't care. Nor does Factotum, if you're using inspiration to boost your basic damage rolls. The melee characters' op level requirement is entirely dependent on the power level of your game, but if one is a Duskblade then the Paladin will probably be sour about how much damage they deal with a single attack. This will be mitigated somewhat if they're a high enough level that the Paladin is on a cool monster mount (the Paladin's most powerful feature) and has a interesting set of spells to use with Battle Blessing (maybe even some wands, possibly in *ugh*, wand chambers). I would expect Dusk and Battle Blessing Paladin to do well with Beguiler, but basic Factotum will probably feel very lacking in power- but again, if they want improvisation/clever solutions rather than blunt mind magic, it could go fine.


Note that this party lacks a Cleric, which means that there's a whole bunch of stuff they can't prepare themselves for. You'll either need to supply one for them (regardless of Cure wands), or be even more careful when designing the adventure, unless one-shot means one session and survival doesn't matter.


Note also that this party can also be achieved quite easily by simply being very low level, with 1/1 or 2/1 multiclassing, and the right spells.

Well that's a lot of stuff. Yes I will be the one desining this and that run this, so I might just homebrew a barbarian with the spell progression of a ranger instead of some class feature. Yes one shot means a little adventure contained in a single session. And since they arent veterans I can't just give them optimized lv 20 PCs and throw a clan of cancient dragons at them to kill.

That being sayed the thread maybe is misleading since I do not want then to do the usual hours of combat so optimisation isn't really a concern so the lack of a cleric and other versatility won't matter.

I also opened another thread to ask advivd about the one shot.


And thanks for all the advice of this post.