Atonement for a Vampire

[Randomocity132]

Can a former paladin, turned vampire, benefit from the atonement spell? Does it change their alignment? Or restore their paladinhood?

Context for those who want it:

So I'm DMing for a 3.5 group, and our campaign has gone on for a while. The party has recently been having a lot of vampire business, which ended in them coming to an uneasy truce with an evil vampire lord in a corrupt city, and allowing him to turn one of the party into a vampire. Following that, they recovered the severed heads of 3 vampires that they vanquished about 6 levels ago. Each of these vampires were devout followers of Pelor when they lived, but were forced to murder civilians after they came under the control of another evil vampire.

Since regaining their free will, they are regretful of what they have done, but the party killed them at the behest of their church's leader, who escaped before being vamped. Later on, they killed that church's leader because they found that he basically allowed them to die. Since reviving the heads, 2 wanted to be dusted, but the 3rd is keen to continue existing. The party now has access to the Atonement spell, and the vampire is definitely going to seek atonement at some point.

Obviously I can just rule it works however I want, but seeing as there's been a lot of dealings with vampires so far, and one of the party members IS a vampire, I want to have a consistent ruling that is reasonably supported by RAW.

[hamishspence]

By RAW, the spell only works on living creatures, which means undead and intelligent, unliving constructs, are out of luck:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm

That said, there's a certain amount of precedent for undead paladins in D&D fiction. I could see the vampire ex-paladin atoning "the old-fashioned way" - via deeds and intentions rather than just via the spell.

[Randomocity132]

By RAW, the spell only works on living creatures

Well ****, how did I miss this

[Feantar]

IFF vampires can naturally change alignment, then atonement works. Otherwise, the vampire should first change alignment to LG (some unnatural way) then it would work to restore their paladin abilities. One good way to do the alignment change is through savage species ritual of alignment, another would be through a helm of opposite alignment.

It seems that they have to be chaotic l evil though. Even the vampire lord template allows one to retain their Law-Chaos alignment prior to the change but not their Good-Evil one. Maybe the book of bad latin has something?

Edit: You can easily overcome the living creature limitation through polymorph.

[hamishspence]

Only 3.0 vampires have to be CE. 3.5 vampires can be any Evil alignment.

And it's worth remembering that any creature, even with Always alignment, can choose to change alignment.

[Telonius]

Book of Bad Latin has a variant rule on page 10 for handling Undead Hunger. Basically, when certain undead don't feed for long enough, they take Wisdom damage unless they make a Will save. For Vampires, it's an "Inescapable Craving" for energy drain and "Diet dependent" for blood.

You could have a "blood bank" of willing volunteers for the Blood Drain (Con damage is easy enough to fix through various means). But for energy drain, you'd have to find a way to either mitigate the negative levels on the target, or fix the Wisdom damage on the vampire. (Probably harder than it sounds, since a lot of "fix ability damage" stuff involves Positive Energy, and points lost from diet or craving don't regenerate as normal for undead). Restoration will do it, but will get expensive at 100gp a day. Something like Spurn Death's Touch (feat from Libris Mortis) will let a friendly Cleric fix the level drain by using a Turn attempt. So all you need is a willing volunteer.

[Randomocity132]

Edit: You can easily overcome the living creature limitation through polymorph.

How so? You can only use polymorph on living creatures.

[hamishspence]

How so? You can only use polymorph on living creatures.

Its more powerful cousin, Polymorph Any Object, works on "one object or creature" rather than "one object or living creature"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm

[Randomocity132]

I suppose I always figured the "like Polymorph but" clause carried over the "living creature" portion. Like rocks and cats are okay, but undead were excluded.

By the looks of it, an undead human into a living human would be a duration factor of 6, so a 3-day duration.

That's certainly long enough to cast Atonement. But will it stick when they revert back?

[mouser13]

Not 100% raw but spark of life and atonement would work maybe. it as line It "must breathe, eat, and sleep just like a normal living creature". Not 100% you are living creature, but the closes your going to get to make the atonement work. Make sure gets a Ring of Sustenance so not forced to break it again.

[Randomocity132]

Not 100% raw but spark of life and atonement would work maybe.

Only lasts for a round/level though.

Atonement takes an hour to cast.

[mouser13]

Only lasts for a round/level though.

Atonement takes an hour to cast.

We just have to two casters one to cast spark of life and one to cast the Atonement, then as Atonement about to complete cast spark of life again. Though may make DM mad, but not like really trying to abuse it just make something good. Though is a bit cheesey.

[mouser13]

Otherwise could do Limited Wish for attonement, personally I think that way more broken interruption. Idea is that limited wish is standard action that can duplicate effect of the attonement converting attonement into a standard action casting for a limited bit of exp and 7th level slot from wizard.

[Feantar]

Only 3.0 vampires have to be CE. 3.5 vampires can be any Evil alignment.

And it's worth remembering that any creature, even with Always alignment, can choose to change alignment.

I'm unsure that's true. There can be creatures that don't follow the Always part, but it's unclear if they can choose to do so, or the influence must be external. Or is it specified that the manner of the alignment change in those cases can always be by choice?

[Vaern]

Evangelists get an ability that temporarily changes people's alignment to match their own, and then gives them the option to retain their new alignment when the duration expires.
The bit about voluntarily giving up a saving throw in the PHB says that even creatures with special resistances can suppress this quality to willingly accept an effect, specifically calling out elves' immunity to magical sleep effects as an example. Although undead are immune to mind-affecting effects, they could theoretically suppress their immunity to voluntarily accept the Evangelist's conversion effect.

[hamishspence]

I'm unsure that's true. There can be creatures that don't follow the Always part, but it's unclear if they can choose to do so, or the influence must be external. Or is it specified that the manner of the alignment change in those cases can always be by choice?

MM p305:

Always: The creature is born with the listed alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to that alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.




Doesn't say anything about them having to be forced into a different alignment - only that they can change - with no restrictions on the mechanism of change.

[GrayDeath]

MM p305:

Always: The creature is born with the listed alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to that alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.



Doesn't say anything about them having to be forced into a different alignment - only that they can change - with no restrictions on the mechanism of change.

This.

Even Outsiders, which are literally MADE of ALignment, can change theirs Willingly (if much harder than mortals, and they keep their Subtypes, see Succubus paladin for example).

So even should atonement via Spell be out, thez can "fight their waz back" to Lawful Good at elast.

Paladinhood....depends on how zou rule the action of sucking Blood&Life.

[hamishspence]

Paladinhood....depends on how zou rule the action of sucking Blood&Life.

If the "life-sustaining nourishment" provided by a Ring of Sustenance counts as satisfying undead Dependencies (Libris Mortis) then they may not need to feed once they have one:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance


Otherwise, you could take the approach that, since the Enervation spell is not evil-tagged, Energy Drain supernatural powers are not evil either, since they function the same way - inflicting negative levels.

As such, if you'd be justified casting lethal spells at an enemy, you are justified in draining them with a power that functions like a lethal spell.

[Malroth]

Do vampires have to drain levels from intelligent creatures? Otherwise you could just let it drain a goat or two every week. If they do could you simply PAO the goat into something with an INT score for 6 seconds before draining it?

[Randomocity132]

depends on how you rule the action of sucking Blood&Life.

Presumably find someone you can ask nicely to participate. If Paladinhood is retained, then a quick Lesser Restoration should fix them right up.


Do vampires have to drain levels from intelligent creatures? Otherwise you could just let it drain a goat or two every week.

Also worth consideration.

[hamishspence]

Do vampires have to drain levels from intelligent creatures? Otherwise you could just let it drain a goat or two every week.

That might work. There is the possibility that the slain goats will come back as wights though, and need to be destroyed.

They can't come back as vampire spawn because they're not humanoid or monstrous humanoid, but "come back as a wight" is the standard rule for a character slain by energy draining. Do animals count as characters - NPCs - for this purpose?

[RatElemental]

As the DM you're well within your rights to dip into homebrew even. I once made a magic item based on spark of life that essentially turned an undead creature into a living version of itself and even helped them get over their supernatural cravings eventually. I think implanting a beating obsidian heart into the chest of the vampire to effectively make it alive again would make for a pretty good adventure hook (IE: finding said heart)

As for RAW, as others have mentioned nothing's stopping the vampire from just being good without an atonement spell. The only hangup is they'll ping detect evil no matter what their alignment is, unless you want to use the cravings rules from the book of bad latin but as I said before: You're the DM, you don't have to if you don't want to.

[Crake]

Why not just kill the vampire and bring it back to life using resurrection?

I'd be pretty suspicious of a vampire that wants to keep living and atone for their evil deed, while continuing to remain a vampire, and needing to feed and drain life constantly, when the option to simply be brough back to life exists.

[Randomocity132]

Why not just kill the vampire and bring it back to life using resurrection?

Expensive.

[Crake]

Expensive.

Again, I'd be suspicious of a paladin who's choosing to remain a vampire, again, needing to feed and drain to sustain himself, simply because coming back to life was a bit expensive. Sell some gear, take out a loan, or indebt yourself to the local church, money isn't a prohibiting factor, it's an excuse, not very noble of the paladin, and so I'd have to assume it's simply a ploy have the players let him go so he can get away scott free without any repercussions.

[ManicOppressive]

Why not just kill the vampire and bring it back to life using resurrection?

I'd be pretty suspicious of a vampire that wants to keep living and atone for their evil deed, while continuing to remain a vampire, and needing to feed and drain life constantly, when the option to simply be brough back to life exists.

Immortality is pretty bangin'.

[Karl Aegis]

Pelor isn't too fond of undead, so I guess they aren't a devout follower of Pelor anymore.

[Randomocity132]

Again, I'd be suspicious of a paladin who's choosing to remain a vampire, again, needing to feed and drain to sustain himself, simply because coming back to life was a bit expensive.

Paladin has no possessions at all, and the local temple is not very receptive to undead making requests. More likely to be destroyed and forgotten than anything.



Sell some gear, take out a loan, or indebt yourself to the local church, money isn't a prohibiting factor

I mean it literally is.


it's an excuse, not very noble of the paladin, and so I'd have to assume it's simply a ploy have the players let him go so he can get away scott free without any repercussions.

Nah, they're on pretty good terms with vampire paladin, tbh.

[rel]

I suppose I always figured the "like Polymorph but" clause carried over the "living creature" portion. Like rocks and cats are okay, but undead were excluded.

By the looks of it, an undead human into a living human would be a duration factor of 6, so a 3-day duration.

That's certainly long enough to cast Atonement. But will it stick when they revert back?

And if you can successfully argue that said undead is more 'animal' than 'vegetable' or 'mineral' it lasts forever

[Crake]

Paladin has no possessions at all, and the local temple is not very receptive to undead making requests. More likely to be destroyed and forgotten than anything.

Then the paladin can just ask the players to make the request instead, and make himself indebted to the players, but I would have thought that the church would be receptive to the idea of bringing one of their paladins back to life. Sounds like a pretty terrible church.

[NNescio]

Then the paladin can just ask the players to make the request instead, and make himself indebted to the players, but I would have thought that the church would be receptive to the idea of bringing one of their paladins back to life. Sounds like a pretty terrible church.

Well, it's Pelor's, so...

(And I guess the party burned their bridges too when they killed the church leader questgiver.)

[GrayDeath]

Well, it's Pelor's, so...

(And I guess the party burned their bridges too when they killed the church leader questgiver.)

I chuckled hard, as I thoguht EXACTLY the same in a snarkY, half resigned tone.

After all, we all have experienced the "holier than thou" Pelor CHurch one time or the other, oh yes....


To be fair, I actually like Pelor himself, be it Original or BH Version *see this for the mood I ahve regarding him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq4SSlsZ_p0).

[Randomocity132]

the church would be receptive to the idea of bringing one of their paladins back to life. Sounds like a pretty terrible church.

Nobody said it was "one of their paladins."

The party killed the leader of the vampire paladin's Pelor church. They have all relocated back to their main city, along with the vampire paladin.

In this city, the vampire is a stranger, and people would rightfully be suspicious of a vampire who says "No really, I'm not trying to do anything evil. Loan me more gold than you've ever had." The temple here is pretty open to most people and most deities, with the exception of those that ping with Detect Evil. And undead generally fit that bill.

Obviously total resurrection is the longterm goal, but step 1 is building a rapport with a new city of people. So I'm trying to see how feasible it is for a vampire to not only change its alignment, but regain restrictive Paladin class features.