Alchemical Weapon wielding Slayer

[OnceUponAnAxe]

I got this idea in my head to make a Slayer who readily uses Alchemical weapons and a hybridization funnel for fun and profit. I like the idea of the Breakaway Boss.

25pt Build

Weapons:

-Scimitar/Kukri because of high crit range? Kukri is light though..

-Heavy Spiked Steel Shield w/ Breakaway Boss: for Shield slam

Build:

Traits Thuvian Achemist, Shield Trained

1Feat: Improved Shield Bash
1Feat(H): Power Attack

2Talent: Two Weapon Fighting

3Feat:

4Talent: Weapon Focus (Scimitar/Kukri)

5Feat: Shield Slam

6Talent: Shield Master 6 Bonus Talent:

7-> ??

If anyone has suggestions on feat/talent build order, stat selection,etc.. please let me know!

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If you're open to using Spheres of Might, the Guild Assassin archetype gets you access to the Alchemy sphere, allowing you to make and use this items much more quickly and effectively

[Mister Rex]

This sounds feasible, at least. How are you going to work in the alchemical weapons when it feels like you're focusing on shield shenanigans? And do you need to be a Slayer or could you look at something like a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor?

[OnceUponAnAxe]

My plan was to utilize the Breakaway Boss, and a Stone Thrower
withAlchemical Sling Bullets (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Alchemical%20sl ing%20bullet) to spread the love around.

I hadn’t thought about any other class. Was focused on the Full BAB and nice skills. Figured it was a solid chassis. Besides spells, which are great, what would I gain from Inquisitor?

[upho]

I got this idea in my head to make a Slayer who readily uses Alchemical weapons and a hybridization funnel for fun and profit. I like the idea of the Breakaway Boss.Unfortunately, while "bash 'n' splash" is a fun concept, there are no Paizo options to get around the full-round action needed to "reload" a shield and the limited effectiveness of alchemical weapons. So there's no way to make the concept into mechanically viable as an actual combat style you build upon. Instead, after the first few levels it'll just be a little flavorful combat opening trick with very little impact on the outcome of combats. So if you want the "bash 'n' splash" mechanics to actually matter, I recommend you follow the Doctor's orders in the post above; check out what Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spheres-of-might) has to offer and talk to your GM about allowing it in your game if you like it.

(If you're not familiar with SoM yet: it's a well-designed sub-system which allows for a much greater variety of different and fun martial builds than Paizo material alone does. AFAIK, for most games and groups it's also significantly better balanced than Paizo material, so you and your GM shouldn't need to worry about your build becoming OP. You'll find practically everything published for the system for free on the wiki I linked to above, so you can try it out without having to buy anything first.)

In case you have/want to stick to Paizo material, you can still definitely make a very effective shield focused build. Though you won't be able to meaningfully improve the alchemical splash bit specifically, there are quite a few strong, different and fun possibilities exclusively for shield fighting which you can focus on. Some of the most truly unique shield fighting combos are variants of the "Captain Andoran" switch-hitter concept, including 7 levels of brawler with the Shield Champion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/shield-champion) (and often Mutagenic Mauler) archetype to pull off various hilarious stunts other builds can only dream of. More specifically, these builds make good use of the highly unique 7th level benefit of the Throw Shield feature:

"At 7th level, a shield champion can use a thrown shield to perform a bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, or trip combat maneuver as if she were making a melee shield bash attack."

Combined with other options, this little gem can enable pretty amazing combos, especially for control/debuff and/or damage dealing purposes. I'll be happy to give you more details and suggestions if you're interested.


A few quick comments on the options in your build outline (from a purely mechanical optimization perspective):


-Scimitar/Kukri because of high crit range? Kukri is light though..While high crit weapons have the highest "on-paper" DPR, at least before high levels they're usually much less effective in a real game than what those average damage numbers imply IME. This is primarily because much of their damage output tends to get wasted on overkill crits, and most importantly because their main advantage has very poor reliability without numerous attacks and several supporting options.

I recommend you use two shields instead, thereby also saving up on weapon-specific stuff (like Weapon Focus).


-Heavy Spiked Steel Shield w/ Breakaway Boss: for Shield slamJust a note in case you didn't know: the shield spike damage increase doesn't stack with that of the superior bashing magic shield special ability or any other options which increase the damage die size (although it works with the few things which alter the base damage die instead). Not that this means you shouldn't get a spiked shield; it's still a very cheap damage boost during at least earlier levels.


Thuvian AchemistWhat does this do? I can't remember having seen this before and I can't find it anywhere. Do you have a link?


3Feat:If you wish to base the build on the slayer, I'd look into options which allow you to reliably get more sneak attacks. For example wielding an off-hand shield with a Hooked Boss, using your free feat slots for trip feats and Combat Reflexes (giving you attacks at full bab in the form of AoOs as well as making targets flat-footed).


4Talent: Weapon Focus (Scimitar/Kukri)If possible, I recommend you get Weapon Focus by buying/crafting/finding a COWPIS (cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone) and a wayfinder (2,000 gp market price in total). Unless you need it for something great you really want, it's definitely not worth one of your precious feat slots.


5Feat: Shield SlamWhile you'll likely want this to get Shield Mastery anyways, note that it uses your melee attack bonus for the bull rush, not your bull rush CMB which you can boost much higher, so it's unfortunately practically useless against most monsters after the first levels (average monster CMD scales much faster than your melee attack bonus can).

[Treblain]

I did a Slayer that's pretty similar, focused on shield bash and TWF, plus a dip in Vivisectionist alchemist. Didn't get high enough level for it to reach full effectiveness with Shield Master and Shield Slam. Power Attack might be less useful since you want the attack roll to be high for Shield Slam. Accomplished Sneak Attacker will probably be worth it.

It might be fun but unfortunately it doesn't do that much damage except in ideal situations. Many combats will have few opportunities where you can make a full attack while qualifying for sneak attack, and Shield Slam can be very situational and can ruin the hard work you spend getting into flanking position.

[OnceUponAnAxe]

Thank you for all the advice. My GM is poopooing the idea of double shields. He’s also very anti brawler archetypes.

The trait was Resourceful Alchemy.

Sorry.

Got it confused.

I guess mechanically I was looking for any other way to improve the alchemy part, but racking it onto the chassis as just the “flair” will suffice for me. Beyond that trait, are their any other ways to get a quick bonus to Alchemy?

I’m looking at the check to combine items. An Acid/Fire sling bullet or something similar in the shield boss seems easy enough. I’m not worried about having to reload immediately after use. Just a quick wizbang is enough.

[upho]

Thank you for all the advice. My GM is poopooing the idea of double shields.Of course your GM has the right to poopoo anything he wants for his game, but just in case you're personally fine with double shields and he's poopooing it primarily because he thinks it seems unrealistic "because shields aren't real weapons" (or similar, usually the case when it comes to double shields IME), I think you should show him the following:

Hasayfu Hung Kuen - Double Tiger-Head Steel Shields Sample (https://youtu.be/y9uILn0iCUs)

Hasayfu Tiger Head Shields (https://youtu.be/VbdLr7A6W3s)

There's even an equivalent to the above "tiger head shield" in PF, the Dwarven War Shield (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=War-shield,%20dwarven): "Dwarven skirmishers often wield these shields in pairs, savagely hacking opponents to pieces, while some dwarven scoundrels enjoy the shields’ imposing appearance and ease of use. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and are wielding two dwarven war-shields, increase the higher of the two shield bonuses by 1."

Also, as seen in the clips above, TWF-ing with two shields can be really cool! :smallbiggrin:

(And speaking of "realistic" shields, a throwing shield is far less realistic, at least as far we know today about medieval martial arts and melee/throwing weapons. Not to mention something insanely suicidal like the dire flail...)


He’s also very anti brawler archetypes.OK. Weird. Did he say why?

Is there anything else your GM has banned you think we need to know about before giving advice?


The trait was Resourceful Alchemy.Ah, of course. That seems like an OK choice for your build.


I guess mechanically I was looking for any other way to improve the alchemy part, but racking it onto the chassis as just the “flair” will suffice for me. Beyond that trait, are their any other ways to get a quick bonus to Alchemy?Just off the top of my head, I think one the easiest and most conceptually fitting thing would be to dip two levels of Vivisectionist (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Alchemist%20Vivise ctionist) alchemist, giving you a stronger sneak attack, a few nifty low-level extracts, a discovery and access to the Extra Discovery feat (two extra arms perhaps?) and the very useful mutagen ability. Definitely not a bad idea. You may also consider combining that with the Ragechemist (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Alchemist%20Ragech emist) archetype if you dip once your Will save can make it safe enough.


I’m looking at the check to combine items. An Acid/Fire sling bullet or something similar in the shield boss seems easy enough. I’m not worried about having to reload immediately after use. Just a quick wizbang is enough.If your GM is fine with you using bullets, it seems like a good idea. Although strictly RAW, I believe the shield boss only works with stuff listed as alchemical weapons (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMisc.aspx?Category=AlchemicalWeapons) of the "splash" type, nothing else.

[OnceUponAnAxe]

If your GM is fine with you using bullets, it seems like a good idea. Although strictly RAW, I believe the shield boss only works with stuff listed as alchemical weapons (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMisc.aspx?Category=AlchemicalWeapons) of the "splash" type, nothing else.

My lack of sentence structure and grammar has begun to show. I meant the Alchemical Sling Bullets for the stone thrower. And using the same hybridization funneled acid/fire combo in the shield boss.

His rulings truck along the whole “realism” thing. I’m not bucking hard against him. I am grateful for the ability to play more than anything else.