Appearance and logistics of winged humanoids (clothing, backpacks, etc.)

[Greywander]

I think I've settled on playing a winged tiefling in an upcoming game, but I started to think about outfits and such and how that would work with the wings.

The post was getting too verbose, so I'll try to summarize my points:

Bat wings should have the membrane going all the say down to the feet (look at bats). Tail would also work, but it's not much of an improvement, as most clothing still doesn't fit.
Wings attached to the shoulders have the arms in the way, and are further from the center of gravity. Birds are more top-heavy than humans, so pelvis wings might be more realistic.
We can just say that it's magic, or that physics is different in D&D, in order to get our typical winged humanoid look. This still leaves questions about [upper body] clothing and backpacks.
My character is female, so can't just go topless (well, I can, but...). This guide (https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/6f6fc07b-6498-4a11-af82-7ee245f0b0ce/d8rt3pq-68284377-8221-4605-826d-7ed7b1206464.png/v1/fill/w_774,h_1032,q_75,strp/outfits_for_winged_folks___backs_by_demireius-d8rt3pq.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1 NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhN WYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg 4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1c m46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t 7InBhdGgiOiIvZi82ZjZmYzA3Yi02NDk4LTRhMTEtYWY4Mi03Z WUyNDVmMGIwY2UvZDhydDNwcS02ODI4NDM3Ny04MjIxLTQ2MDU tODI2ZC03ZWQ3YjEyMDY0NjQucG5nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTc3N CIsImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTAzMiJ9XV19.IGLOk5IN9f6wZtlk03 8zI55QHuFmfPohHooNDHkHXLY) shows some potential shirt designs that would work with wings. If the wings really take up the entire length of the back as shown in that diagram, then something like a tank top won't work, nor will most bras.
Even if I get the shirt figured out, what about a backpack? Where does it go? Are we pretty much limited to fanny packs? A Bag of Holding will help, but not every winged humanoid is going to have one.
Lastly, the wings themselves. I looked at hang glider dimensions, and one website had something like a 27 foot wingspan. What do they look like when folded up? Apparently bat wings are able to compress more when folded than bird wings. But the wingtips are still probably going to be pretty close to the ground.

I had considered something like a poncho or mantle coming down to the elbows with slits cut in the back for the wings. In the first Fable game, the hero's sister wears something (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fable/images/5/52/Theresa_Child.png/revision/latest?cb=20100702184609) like this during the childhood part at the beginning of the game. You'd need an undergarment though, as an errant breeze or even just raising both arms in front of you would flash everyone. It's basically a skirt for your shoulders. Then again, maybe skirts and skirt-like clothing should be avoided on a flying character? (Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen a magical girl outfit that didn't include a skirt.)

The tiefling variant for wings doesn't state anything other than having a flying speed. No clothing or armor restrictions, no need for specially designed packs, no trouble fitting through tight spaces. Maybe the wings are just really tiny and mostly cosmetic, and the flight is magical? This, however, would mean no flying inside an anti-magic zone, which is also not indicated in the description. No wonder people don't like flying PC races, there's just so many questions that aren't answered in the description of the feature.

[HappyDaze]

Does it even specify that the wings are large or attached to the shoulders? You could be like Namor the Sub-Mariner and use little ankle wings to fly.
https://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Namor-Submariner-Marvel-Comics-b.jpg

[Greywander]

It does specify that they sprout from the shoulders. Other than that, and being bat wings, there is no other fluff. Just, "Ya got dem bat wings out ya sho'ders, and dat tirty foot flyin' speed." That's literally it.

[Dr. Cliché]

With regard to wing size, I'd probably use Aarakocra as a rough guide. Yes, I know that technically a humanoid-sized creature would require gargantuan wings (not to mention incredible muscles) in order to get off the ground. Plus there's stuff like the drag factor, the movement limitations imposed by having 2 sets of upper limbs etc.

However, at the end of the day, D&D is a fantasy simulator - not a hard-science gene-splicing simulator. :smallwink:

Hence, I think it's easier to just assume that the wings are at least semi-magical and not try to delve any deeper into the science of winged flight. It's a fun conversation to have in hypothetical terms, but it's really not going to be much help when the goal is to design a character using D&D rules.

Anyway, assuming roughly Aarakocra-sized wings, I think loose clothing with slits for the wings would work reasonably well. IMO it would have to be slits (not just holes), as I think trying to put two entire wings through holes would just result in either getting completely tangled up or else just shredding whatever you were trying to put on.

I'd also limit myself in terms of armour. I think anything more than Light armour would be really pushing it and quite honestly I think even Light armour might still be too restrictive for flight. Might be better to try and use Mage Armour or such instead.

In terms of a backpack, consider that your character doesn't have to be flying all the time. I know I said I wouldn't bring science into it, but flying has to be a hell of a lot more tiring than just walking. Plus it makes it a lot harder to have a conversation with other party members.

Hence, you could probably get away with just using a normal backpack most of the time (maybe adjusted slightly to be more comfortable against your wings). The only modification I'd suggest would be to have some form of quick-release ability. So if you're ambushed and need to take flight immediately, you don't need to waste precious seconds trying to remove your backpack.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I wouldn't say that wondering about the logistics is why many GM's don't like them, usually it's the level of mobility and ability to trivialize popular environmental obstacles that makes them disliked.

As for outfits, one of my characters has angel wings and I did put some thought into figuring out how her outfit works.

Her wings are drawn coming out of her back at just-below-the-shoulder height. She wears plate armor, which made it more complicated. In the end, it effectively amounts to her gambeson and chain layers having "half sleeves" that cover the base of the joint with her back, and her backplate having additional holes on her back. She wears a bandolier or crossed bandoliers, and in the back they pass between her wings.

As for her flight dynamics, I imagine her flying like an airplane, or soaring bird, with her feet behind her.

[Greywander]

With regard to wing size, I'd probably use Aarakocra as a rough guide.
Based on the picture in the EE Player's Companion, those wings go down the full length of the back. So no tank tops, I need full on backless clothing.


Anyway, assuming roughly Aarakocra-sized wings, I think loose clothing with slits for the wings would work reasonably well. IMO it would have to be slits (not just holes), as I think trying to put two entire wings through holes would just result in either getting completely tangled up or else just shredding whatever you were trying to put on.
I was reading on another site and I think someone else said something similar. Getting an arm through a sleeve can be hard enough sometimes, now imagine having huge honking feathers or webbing hanging off the limb. One of the links I posted in the OP showed things like using buttons or zippers to attach the ends of a slit together to close it. Probably much easier to put on than trying to fit a wing through a hole.


I'd also limit myself in terms of armour. I think anything more than Light armour would be really pushing it and quite honestly I think even Light armour might still be too restrictive for flight. Might be better to try and use Mage Armour or such instead.
The feature doesn't limit armor at all, which is especially odd considering the aarakocra does, and the EE companion was published before SCAG. Fluff does carry a certain amount of weight when it comes to roleplay, but armor is a very mechanical part of the game, so any impact on your ability to wear armor should be specifically called out. You'd think it would, but it doesn't say it does, so I'd say that you can still mechanically benefit from, say, plate armor while flying, and it's on you to justify the fluff for that. I might end up using light armor or Mage Armor anyway on this particular character.


In terms of a backpack, consider that your character doesn't have to be flying all the time. I know I said I wouldn't bring science into it, but flying has to be a hell of a lot more tiring than just walking. Plus it makes it a lot harder to have a conversation with other party members.

Hence, you could probably get away with just using a normal backpack most of the time (maybe adjusted slightly to be more comfortable against your wings). The only modification I'd suggest would be to have some form of quick-release ability. So if you're ambushed and need to take flight immediately, you don't need to waste precious seconds trying to remove your backpack.
Could I actually loop the arm straps around my wings? No, I guess that's the same issue as holes vs. slits in clothing. If you could, I wonder how much it would impede you to straighten your wings behind you, angled downward, in order to drop the pack? I guess if you were getting ready launch you'd want your wings up, not down.

I'm not sure if you could wear a normal backpack with wings, though. If the wings can flatten completely against your body, then maybe, but I'm not sure if they can. Although it occurs to me that pelvic wings might be able to wrap around your legs like an extra pair of pants, similar to how bats wrap themselves in their wings. Maybe shoulder wings could wrap around your arms?

I could probably just refluff a "backpack" as an assortment of waistpacks that somehow manage to have the same capacity.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've been playing a fairy for a while now. I wear an open back unitard, as that's the easiest thing to wear, really. The studded leather armor I'm equipped with has a much smaller profile on back, with a small strap going against the small of the back, buckling in to either side of the front so that it can be easily taken off or put on. The armor has a split cover design that wraps around the shoulders instead of the torso, with flat, low pauldrons that won't get in the way of any flapping wings. I complete the ensemble with two long, wide strips of leather that reach past my knees. It's the only lower body armor I bother with, as I don't walk all that often. I wear sandals that look nice but are completely impractical for walking- again, I don't do that much and don't really know how to wear appropriate shoes. My belt ties all this together with low-hanging but well-secured scabbards for my weapons. My backpack is a small, cylindrical bundle on the back of the belt. I've made a point that I can't really just reach back there and grab something in the middle of a fight, as it's secured for flying.

Hair's in a low pony tail tied with ribbons, intentionally left loose further down so that it flaps with the flapping of my wings.

[Dr. Cliché]

The feature doesn't limit armor at all, which is especially odd considering the aarakocra does, and the EE companion was published before SCAG. Fluff does carry a certain amount of weight when it comes to roleplay, but armor is a very mechanical part of the game, so any impact on your ability to wear armor should be specifically called out. You'd think it would, but it doesn't say it does, so I'd say that you can still mechanically benefit from, say, plate armor while flying, and it's on you to justify the fluff for that. I might end up using light armor or Mage Armor anyway on this particular character.

I know that there's no RAW restriction on armour (though saying that it might be worth checking the FAQ, just in case).

However, in terms of fluff, winged-flight in heavy armour just doesn't seem right to me.

It's up to you, obviously, but for me this would be a self-imposed restriction.




Could I actually loop the arm straps around my wings? No, I guess that's the same issue as holes vs. slits in clothing.

Well, I was thinking of arm straps that clip or buckle together. So rather than trying to fit your wings through the straps, you'd just unclip them, fold them around your wings, and then clip them back together (or buckle them or whatever other method you pick). You might need slightly longer straps to comfortably accommodate your wings, but that's a negligible change in the grand scheme of things.




I'm not sure if you could wear a normal backpack with wings, though. If the wings can flatten completely against your body, then maybe, but I'm not sure if they can. Although it occurs to me that pelvic wings might be able to wrap around your legs like an extra pair of pants, similar to how bats wrap themselves in their wings. Maybe shoulder wings could wrap around your arms?


I was thinking of something along these lines. If you've ever seen the animated series Gargoyles, the titular characters frequently wrap their wings around them like cloaks. I imagine tiefling bat-wings being able to do something similar. I mean, there are no strict guidelines so you could just say that your character's wings work like that regardless.

[Grek]

Given that dragons, monstrous spiders, cloud giants and griffons exist, we can safely assume that allometric scaling factors in the D&D universe are much more generous than they are in real life, and that the upper bounds for force exerted by a muscle of a given cross sectional area are much higher. This means that wing loads can be much higher without stalling out and that wingspans don't need to be as large as you'd expect from IRL biology. (This also means that strong humans can lift more than comparably muscular IRL examples, which matches with what we observe barbarians doing.) Just pick whatever wingspan matches your mental image, and maybe have your character be kinda lightweight (as birds and bats are) for her height.

For armour, the major problem is that the back of the cuirass needs to have slits for the wings, but it also needs to be easy to put on. That's not a huge constraint - just get a hauberk arranged like the slitted cloak you linked, but with clasps or metal loops two thirds down, so they lie against the lower back. A belt running through those loops can fasten the lower half of the hauberk against the body so it doesn't get loose. (Something similar can be done for civilian clothing - think a combination between a kimono and a poncho, with slits in the back, secured with a sash around the waist.) For the backplate, you have two overlapping sections, one shaped like an M from above, and one shaped like a W from below. These latch together with the same sort of buckles used to attach the backplate to the breastplate, with two gaps sized for the wings to come out. You put the M-shaped one on first, then buckle the bottom of the W shaped one to the bottom of the M-shaped one, then fold the W-shaped one up and buckle the tops together. Note that this wouldn't cost any extra, because heavy armour is already custom fit to the person wearing it. Doing the back in two plates instead of one isn't even that weird of a request compared to some of the stuff armorsmiths get probably asked about in D&D.

For storage, I think you're definitely onto something with the waistpacks. Something like this (https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Shk5KFXXXXaCaXXXq6xXFXXXL/DEVICE-Work-leg-pouch.jpg_350x350.jpg) drop leg pouch on either side and a fanny pack in the back is more than enough storage for the average adventurer.

[LordCdrMilitant]

So, more on the flight dynamics of an angel or demon [TL:DR, if a B2 Spirit can fly, so can she]:

A bit of defining terminology: I'm going to assume that her orientation in steady level flight is "headward" with her face pointing towards the ground, roughly in a cruciform pose with her feet together and her wings outstretched [and her arms wherever she wants them to be]. "Forward" will refer to being in the direction of the head and away from the feet, with "Backwards" being towards her feet. "Up" will refer to the direction normal to the plane of her back, with "down" being normal to her chest. [I'll draw diagrams when I figure out how to post them]

Anyway...

In order to be stable [she returns to steady level flight after experience a perturbation], her center of pressure [the point about which aerodynamic forces act on her] needs to be behind her center of gravity [the point about which she will rotate]. The Cg of a human is slightly behind her belly button, though her spread wings will probably move that forward significantly [If anybody has measured the mass of an angel's wings, let me know, but since they're generally pretty large, they're probably pretty heavy, and their actuators will be her strongest and densest muscles by far]. The Cp will vary with her angle of attack, but will generally be in the vicinity of the quarter-chord point of her wing. Fortunately, these two points aren't too far apart, which is good for her, and of course, she might have a body shape that puts more weight forward on her body than on a wingless humanoid to make her actively stable.

Roll control and stability is easy. With an inherent "high wing" shape she's roll stable, and can easily pose with a dihedral. For control, she can flip her trailing edges [elevons] in different directions, or alter the lift that one of her wings produces [changing its angle of attack for example, or twisting it to change it's airfoil shape], and both will result in roll.

Yaw control should be achievable: by manipulating her wingtips create more drag at one of them. Wing sweep will improve her yaw stability. Birds and flying wings control themselves like this.

The biggest concern is pitch control and stability. This is also generally one of the greater concerns for flying wing airframes, which can flip end-over-end in stall conditions and in normal flight conditions if they aren't stable. Flying wings generally achieve stability by having highly swept wings with variable airfoil shape along their length, and having a low pitching moment wing. To protect them from stalls, they often have a set up where the edges of the wing, which are swept far back, stall later than the front part, so that as they approach stall front of the wing loses lift while the back doesn't and the nose drops back into a safe flight regime. For active control, she flips her elevons together to tip herself up or down.

Finally, you don't actually have to be stable so long as you aren't too unstable and are controllable. The B2 Spirit isn't stable, and instead uses fancy computers to continuously use it's active control measures to keep it flying straight and true.

Basically, an angel or demon gliding on her wings is very similar to a flying wing aircraft from a stability perspective.

[da newt]

If the wings are 'bat like' then they are mostly membrane except along the leading edge / musculature, right? I'd think this membrane could be pierced along the body to allow straps to pass through for clothing / armor attachment. The back would be left open other than minimal straps to allow full movement and its really the front / bottom that need the armor and modesty concealment.

I'd defiantly also ensure the body type was as light as possible to add realism.

Random thought - are tieflings mammals or reptiles? Is a Bra even a concern?

[LordCdrMilitant]

If the wings are 'bat like' then they are mostly membrane except along the leading edge / musculature, right? I'd think this membrane could be pierced along the body to allow straps to pass through for clothing / armor attachment. The back would be left open other than minimal straps to allow full movement and its really the front / bottom that need the armor and modesty concealment.

I'd defiantly also ensure the body type was as light as possible to add realism.

Random thought - are tieflings mammals or reptiles? Is a Bra even a concern?

Tieflings are mammals, definitely. They're humans with demonic heritage.

I don't think they have any reptilian traits?

[Dr. Cliché]

Basically, an angel or demon gliding on her wings is very similar to a flying wing aircraft from a stability perspective.

Just a point but demons are generally depicted as having bat-like wings. And unless I'm mistaken, unlike birds, bats can't actually glide.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Just a point but demons are generally depicted as having bat-like wings. And unless I'm mistaken, unlike birds, bats can't actually glide.

I assume this is a problem for wing geometry more than aesthetics. I don't really know animals though, the skin membrane vs feathers might have something to do with it, but I assume it's more a matter of the actual shape of the wing.

[MagneticKitty]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/b2/77/8bb277d0a74214686968c95be42d9689.jpg
Credit not me