Favoured Soul verses Oracle

[Aotrs Commander]

So, I'm coming towards (if maybe not quite NEAR) the end of my absortion of PF1 into 3.Aotrs. Today, I was looking at Favoured Soul. This has always seemed to be been regarded as a bit of pants class (there isn't even a handbook for it I could find), and I think the only time I ever used one was as an NPC because I was using at least one of every character class then available while converting Dragon Mountain to 3.5...

So, I thinks, just make Favoured Soul and archtype of oracle? Take away the revalations (and the curse, obviously, though I have allowed curse to be an entirely optional feature oracles can take 1); just drop revalations and use that to give it the better saves and slghly better versions of the FS's class "features..."

But I DID notice one thing. The FS does NOT use the Sorc (and later Oracle) spells known progression - it actually gets a fair few more spells.

I don't, however, hear people saying to the same extent oracles and PF sorcs are terrible, though, despite them sort of having a worse issue with FS in regard to spells known (even counting the extra spells from mystery/bloodline).

Is that solely because of the revalations and bloodline powers they have now?



'Cos I am wondering that if I were to just cull the revalations from oracle and give the FS its better saves and some fixed abilites based on its... Class "features," whether I would actually be making the FS worse by taking away the megre spell selections (aside from it being, y'know, only Cha-dependant).

So then, playground what do we think?

The FS has very approximately (counting the mystery/bloodline spells as free spell slots) not quite 1 extra spell known per level over oracle worth revelations (and casts as many spells per day assuming a partiy of ability scores), plus basically a handul of feats? And if not, how much would switching the FS to oracle spells known hurt it?



One idea might be to switch to oracle spells known, but let the FS pick two domains and get the spells on their domain list (and the domian power - the domains are still at 3.5 standards not PF because I am NOT buffing the 3.5 cleric 2) in addition to the slightly better versions of their 3.5 features.

Another might be to let it have those extra spell known, but keep it a mixed stat caster and then give it, I dunno, battle mystery revelations and replace the mystery and mystery spells with the original class "features."

I know that there is a likely a fair arguement for just making FS a Battle Oracle without the curse and I might even nick a few of the Battle revalations to add to the FS' fixed progression, but I do want to do a little more faithful (pin unintended) overhaul of the Favoured Soul.



1My one expereince with oracles in play using a pre-gen rather... Negatively disposed me to the concept, shall wee say, so I made it an optional clas sfeature for 3.Aotrs, since it's essentially kind of self-balancing. After discussion about it on the forums at the time, I should add.

2All they have gotten is at-will 0th (except for Cure/Inflict Minor) and I only gave them PF's Proxy after explictly downgrading it to only more or less a fluff ability of "you can just talk to God when you like..."

[Maat Mons]

Pathfinder spontaneous casters can take a favored class benefit for +1 spell known per class level. That's about +2 spells known per spell level.

[Mister Rex]

Oracle revelations specifically usually punch their weight a lot higher than bloodline powers, and a few archetypes (dual-cursed, spirit guide) are exceptionally good. I love Lunar for how strong it is.

[Aotrs Commander]

Pathfinder spontaneous casters can take a favored class benefit for +1 spell known per class level. That's about +2 spells known per spell level.

That's certainly a point to consider (and seems to benefit humans particularly), but I have to admit, I ditched the idea of favored classes completely when I ditched multiclass restrictions. While PF's positive bonuses is better than 3.x's... Stuff, I still am not fond of the idea conceptually. (And the amount of effort required to plop that in makes me shudder...!)

That raises the question, though, whether I should just straight add +1 to all the oracle/sorc (maybe Spirit Shaman?) spells known progression in lieu of that option. Hrmmmm...





Nominal first archtype pass for FS.

(This is standard PF1-compatible as presented; my own hosue rules as mentioned, make curse optional and grant channel energy (which would be the thing replaced by the weapon stuff), and we still have Jump, which they'd also get as a class skill.

Favoured Soul (Archtype)
Replaces: Curse, Mystery, Mystery Spells, Revelations
Saves: the Favoured Soul gets Good progression (2 + ½ level) in Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Favoured souls are proficient with all simple weapons, with light and medium armour, and with shields (except tower shields). A favoured soul is also proficient with her deity’s favoured weapon.
This modifies the oracle’s weapon and armour proficiencies.
Skills: the Favoured Soul adds Fly and Knowledge (Arcana) to their list of class skills.
Domain: A favoured soul chooses one domain from among those belonging to his deity. A favoured soul can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.
The favoured soul adds the spells on the domain list to his spells known whenever he reaches the appropriate level and gains the use of the domain’s granted power. This replaces Mystery and Mystery spells.
Deity’s Weapon Focus: At 2nd level, a favoured soul gains the Weapon Focus feat with her deity’s favoured weapon. If the character already has that feat, she can choose a different Combat feat for which she meets the prerequisites.

Auspices (Ex): At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a favoured soul gains a new Auspice. Auspices are selected from the following list. An Auspice can be selected multiple times, and its effects stack.
Energy Resistance: The favoured soul gains Energy Resistance 5 to one energy type or increases an existing Resistance to energy by 5 points (this does not have to be from an auspice if the character has racial energy resistance). If this would raise the energy resistance to greater than 30, the character becomes immune to that element.
Poison Resistance: The favoured soul gains +2 on saves verses poison. If this would raise the bonus to greater than +6, the favoured soul becomes immune to poison.
Disease Resistance: The favoured soul gains +2 on saves verses disase. If this would raise the bonus to greater than +6, the favoured soul becomes immune to disase.
Damage Reduction: The Favoured Soul gains Damage Reduction according to their deities’s alignment. The favoured soul selects one option from the two choices available for her alignment on the table below and gains DR of 3/ of that type. This damage reduction increases by +2 for every pick. (If the favoured soul already has racial damage reduction of that type, it increases by 3 for every pick). If this would raise the Damage Reduction to greater than DR 12, the favoured soul also gains the additional choice for that alignment (if available).

Deity Alignment Type of Damage Reduction
Lawful Good: Silver or Good
Neutral Good: Good
Chaotic Good: Cold Iron or Good
Lawful Neutral: Magic or Silver
Neutral: Magic
Chaotic Neutral: Cold Iron or Magic
Lawful Evil: Silver or Evil
Neutral Evil: Evil
Chaotic Evil: Cold Iron or Evil
This replaces revalations.

Deity’s Weapon Specialization: At 4h level, a favoured soul gains the Weapon Specialization feat with her deity’s favoured weapon. If she already has that feat, she can choose a different Combat feat for which she meets the prerequisites.
Deity’s Favour (Su): Whenever the favoured souls casts a favoured spell shecan choose any one ally affected by that spell (including herself) to gain temporary hit points equal to three times the spell’s level. These temporary hit points last for up 1 minute per spell level of the spell. If the spell would also grantt temporary hit points, use only the larger value and its duration.
Beginning at 12th level, she can choose to grant these temporary hit points to any number of allies affected by the spell.
If the favoured soul use this ability on a creature that still under the effect of a previous use, the new temporary hit points overlap and do not stack the temporary hit points the creature had remaining.
Wings (Ex): At 16th 10th level, a favoured soul gains wings and can fly at a speed of 60 feet (Good manoeuvrability) when unencumbered or in light armour of 40 feet when in medium or heavy armour or carrying a medium or heavy load. A good-aligned favoured soul grows feathered wings, and an evil-aligned favoured soul gains batlike wings. A favoured soul who is neither good nor evil may choose either type of wings.
If the favoured soul already has wings or a natural ability to fly, their maneouverabily improves by one class (to a maximum of perfect) and they gain a +20 bonus to Fly speed if their original flight speed was 60 feet or greater. (If it was less than 60 feet, it becomes 60 feet as above.)
Chosen Avatar (Ex): (Capstone) At 20th level, the favoured soul becomes an avatar of her diety. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. (Except for beneficial effects that worked on her original type such as Enlarge Person.) She immediately gains four new Auspices.
Unlike other outsiders, the favoured soul can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.



(Yeah, law-chaos neutral gets a bit of the shaft on the DR, and the (3.5-based) decision not to have an Neutral-outsiders material is a bit bleh as well... for my homebrew world (which we dont play in all the time, most of the time it's on Golarion), I added in Alum Bronze (which is after much careful thought and research!) a type of aluminium bronze as the Dr pentrator for law-chaos neutral outsiders, so there's that...! Considered two domains, but felt that might be a bit too much.)

[satorian]

I'd have the wings come online earlier. 16th was always too late, and was a big problem for the class. They could start limited use/day (maybe have them be shimmering and insubstantial, like a halo) at, say, 6th or 8th level, growing more real on the way up to 16th.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'd have the wings come online earlier. 16th was always too late, and was a big problem for the class. They could start limited use/day (maybe have them be shimmering and insubstantial, like a halo) at, say, 6th or 8th level, growing more real on the way up to 16th.

Darn, I could have sworn I put that down to 10th - I intended to, anyway; 16 was, as you say, far too late! (Chosen as that was what level Aasimars can get the Angel Wings feat in PF, seemed a good point as any.)

[GrayDeath]

Pathfinder spontaneous casters can take a favored class benefit for +1 spell known per class level. That's about +2 spells known per spell level.

THis. Also, unlike Favoured Souls they are SAD Casters.

But aside from that, your Rework looks verz balanced to me with FLying at 10th!

[Psyren]

Is that solely because of the revalations and bloodline powers they have now?

Well no - the primary reason people like Oracles better than Favored Souls is that the latter are MAD; Charisma governs their bonus spells and highest level spells, but Wisdom governs save DCs. This is actually the worst kind of MAD for a primary caster - the kind that splits the bonus spells and the DCs stat, because primary casters usually want to pump both. It means that unless you're in a high point-buy game with high wealth, you usually have to choose between being an effective offensive caster or having lots of ammunition in the form of bonus spells. Most FS players go for the latter, avoiding offensive magic to focus on self-buffing/gishing and summons, leaving their Wisdom low. Oracle players meanwhile are Charisma-SAD and thus don't have to choose. People also prefer the Dragonlance Mystic over the Favored Soul for this same reason.

Another thing you might be forgetting is that Oracles have two big sources of extra spells known that aren't reflected on their class table. You touched on the 9 bonus spells they get from their Mystery, but the other one is that they get all the cure or inflict spells (your choice) for free; this includes the "mass" versions at higher levels, so they effectively get another 8 extra spells known which also aren't shown on the table. Combine those two and you get a total of 17 bonus spells known that aren't shown on the table, which I believe catches them up with the FS complement. (I'm still processing my coffee so my math may be off, but even if it is, it's not by much.)

Lastly, putting aside the favored class thing Maat Mons mentioned, Pathfinder also has Page of Spell Knowledge as a first-party aid for spontaneous casters seeking extra spells known; note that they can craft these even for spells they don't know simply by increasing the DC. The 3.5 equivalent meanwhile requires Dragon Magazine, which is a dicey (heh) prospect at most tables.



So then, playground what do we think?

Personally, I prefer Oracle by a mile - not just because of the SADness mentioned above, but the strong flavor of its curse, mysteries and revelations. Like the Favored Soul, it makes the gods and other divine powers just that bit more inscrutable by allowing them to (capriciously, inadvertently, or out of perceived necessity) bypass church hierarchy and even the need for piety to empower mortals directly. But unlike the favored soul, the sort-of-drawbacks that come with this kind of divine attention provide oodles of mechanical differentiation and roleplay possibility. Take any two Favored Souls and they usually end up very similar due to the lack of class features and the MADness driving their spell selection, but two Oracles have a lot more thematic and mechanical freedom to be radically different from one another, and more tailored to the god who noticed them (whether or not they return that god's "affections.")

[Aotrs Commander]

Well no - the primary reason people like Oracles better than Favored Souls is that the latter are MAD; Charisma governs their bonus spells and highest level spells, but Wisdom governs save DCs. This is actually the worst kind of MAD for a primary caster - the kind that splits the bonus spells and the DCs stat, because primary casters usually want to pump both. It means that unless you're in a high point-buy game with high wealth, you usually have to choose between being an effective offensive caster or having lots of ammunition in the form of bonus spells. Most FS players go for the latter, avoiding offensive magic to focus on self-buffing/gishing and summons, leaving their Wisdom low. Oracle players meanwhile are Charisma-SAD and thus don't have to choose. People also prefer the Dragonlance Mystic over the Favored Soul for this same reason.

We do tend to play in such a hgih-stat environment (36 points, base 8, point for point, so you could have a starting spread of 18, 18, 14, 12, 12, 10 it's quite doable1 which is perhaps why the MAD split was not as immediately evident to me. In fact, we've been doing so long I hadn't considered it, but one of the reasons I even did that was explicitly BECAUSE it favoured MAD characters; SAD character literally couldn't get any worse than already being maxed!

But making FS purely Cha-based is still a good idea anyway, I think.


Another thing you might be forgetting is that Oracles have two big sources of extra spells known that aren't reflected on their class table. You touched on the 9 bonus spells they get from their Mystery, but the other one is that they get all the cure or inflict spells (your choice) for free; this includes the "mass" versions at higher levels, so they effectively get another 8 extra spells known which also aren't shown on the table. Combine those two and you get a total of 17 bonus spells known that aren't shown on the table, which I believe catches them up with the FS complement. (I'm still processing my coffee so my math may be off, but even if it is, it's not by much.)

Ah, that makes big difference. See, this is just down to me having ported the Oracle across... FRACK ME, it was November 2013 (I made a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?316602-PF-gt-3-5(ish)-Oracle-Class-power-without-curse) on it (don't post in it, obviously, anyone, well past necro-point)!)... Yeah, okay, I suddenly kind of don't feel as bad about forgetting something I must have read once six years ago when I ported it across and subsequently forgotten, since no-one has played an oracle yet (even as an NPC!)

Anyway, I'mma give that the FS soul as well, I think.




Lastly, putting aside the favored class thing Maat Mons mentioned, Pathfinder also has Page of Spell Knowledge as a first-party aid for spontaneous casters seeking extra spells known; note that they can craft these even for spells they don't know simply by increasing the DC. The 3.5 equivalent meanwhile requires Dragon Magazine, which is a dicey (heh) prospect at most tables.

Yah, Dragon Magazine is absolutely not a source I'm prepared to clear stuff from.




Personally, I prefer Oracle by a mile - not just because of the SADness mentioned above, but the strong flavor of its curse, mysteries and revelations. Like the Favored Soul, it makes the gods and other divine powers just that bit more inscrutable by allowing them to (capriciously, inadvertently, or out of perceived necessity) bypass church hierarchy and even the need for piety to empower mortals directly. But unlike the favored soul, the sort-of-drawbacks that come with this kind of divine attention provide oodles of mechanical differentiation and roleplay possibility. Take any two Favored Souls and they usually end up very similar due to the lack of class features and the MADness driving their spell selection, but two Oracles have a lot more thematic and mechanical freedom to be radically different from one another, and more tailored to the god who noticed them (whether or not they return that god's "affections.")

Noted. I think FS will be an adequate archtype for Oracle, but yeah, I really don't think it has enough merit for a class all its own.

But that's the approach I've been taking with a fair bit if my class revision, undating 3.5 classes to PF standard, but also pasting it in for backward compatibility so that you can essentially replicate the stuff from the 3.5 classes as well - the idea being to relatively minimise changes to existant characters and generally to make the process addative, not subtractive. A bit like what Pathfinder Kingmaker did with the Monk and the Traditional Monk archtype (only a bit better, in my case...!)


...

Actually, since one of the upshots of that oracle thread was "if you're gonna make the curse optional, give it channel energy" and I haven't explictly linked it to the cure/inflict spells, while on the one hand it would make sense to have channel positive with cures and vice-verse, at the moment, my specific wording doing that would say you could potentially channel positive and get inflict spells. BadWrongIdea or possibly interesting one...?




1I have, for perhaps obvious reasons NOT adopted the extra +2 stat bonus PF1 gives everyone over 3.5; it can be just assumed to be subsumed into the 36 points and me just saying "you're only allowed to have one starting stat above 20" or something...! For the same reason, I haven't changed HD to PF standard, since we used straight max hits anyway.