What additional spells would you add to the sorcerer list?

[Spiritchaser]

What spells would you like to see added to the list?

The UA revisions to sorcerer have added a modest number of spells. The spells that I would most like to see are not amongst them, and most of the options don’t seem fantastic, but:

They have at least grown the list

With Spell Versatility, it has now become reasonable to play with some variety in spell choices for fun

They have added two options which can benefit from metamagic in ways that almost seem to have been deliberately avoided previously. If it’s ok to have vampiric touch, which on a sorcerer allows the function of that spell in combination with a quickened bonus action spell. and foresight which can be extended or (maybe even) twinned to great effect, maybe we can also get glibness. Sure Vampiric touch is awful on most casters, but on a sorcerer it’s nearly good, and it fits a lot of concepts. Sure most sorcerers would still pick wish over foresight for the flexibility, but maybe with spell versatility extended or (gasp) twinned (yeah I know) foresight could be a thing now.

So yeah what other spells would you really like to see added

I’d pick

Wall of force, force cage, glibness, evards black tentacles.

wall of force: Not much direct metamagic interaction, but very important for a role sorcerers should be able to fill
force cage: as above
glibness: yes this makes sorcerers with the right builds very good at mage duels, but it’s nothing bards can’t do, and sorcerers should be able to specialize into being very good at limited roles.
evard’s black tentacles: “authored” spells are generally omitted from the sorcerer list, but if I want this on a shadow sorcerer or a divine soul(shar) or heck, any dark dark darkety dark themed sorcerer, I should be able to have it... plus this is a modest level Dex save AoE control and sorcerers should have access to modest level Dex save AoE control

Thoughts?
Suggestions?

Squids?

[stoutstien]

Id add subclass expanded lists like cleric domain spells. Could go a long way to sure up less powerful Subclasses with good picks.

[NNescio]

FIND FAMILIAR.

(And maybe make it not count against spells known too.)

[jaappleton]

Sorcerers need more EXCLUSIVE spells.

That's what they need.

[CheddarChampion]

If a player made a Sorcerer and chose spells according to a theme, I'd let them take whatever went with that theme (using my judgement on a case-by-case basis).

[Habber_Dasher]

Faerie Fire and Transmute Rock. Careful is a good metamagic, it just doesn't work with enough spells. These help fill in the gap, and make careful a more viable option instead of the usual empower/ subtle/ twin/ quicken you see on most sorcerer builds.

[nharwell]

If a player made a Sorcerer and chose spells according to a theme, I'd let them take whatever went with that theme (using my judgement on a case-by-case basis).

Agreed, that's what I do as well, even choosing a few spells from non-Wizard lists. Though I won't be using Spell Versatility for the players who I let modify their lists that much.

[loki_ragnarock]

I'd give them more generalist spells from older editions as unique spells to the spell list that bards would steal but otherwise would be sorcerer only.

Things like:
Shadow Evocation - With an option to use spell points to increase the % of effect that's real.
Shadow Conjuration - With an option to use spell points to increase the % of effect that's real.
Limited Wish - As a 7th level spell that duplicates any 6th level or lower spell. Expensive and expended material component... that can be substituted with a spell point sacrifice.

In short, they should uniquely get a set of spells that can substitute for other spells long before Wish takes the stage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Level 8 Glibness.
And a lot of wizard spells I was sure the sorcerer got.

[MrStabby]

Certainly none of the existing ones - some classes having access to spells others do not is part of their identity and having too much bleed between classes is less than ideal.

I would however, look for them to have more sorcerer specific spells doing sorcerer specific things. I think that the mid level damage spells are relatively week and of all the classes sorcerer probably deserves them the most. Even just a unique, pretty powerful damage spell of levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 spanning a range of underrepresented elements would add a lot to blaster sorcerers.

[Theaitetos]

I like all of those ideas, especially bringing back old edition spells for the sorcerer like Limited Wish and the shadow spells.

I'd also like to see some spells that work well with metamagic options, spells that make sense with wild magic, and some "reckless" spells. Sorcerers used to be these passionate casters with lots of wild temperament and strong emotions, but now they're contemplating long about their spells, doing bookkeeping on sorcery points, and using Careful metamagic to weave their fireballs more intricate than an old bookworm wizard. :smallsigh: Sorcerers need some "barbarian rage" spell or something, exchanging control over their spells for raw arcane power. :smallmad: I don't want to cast a careful Fireball, I want the universe to unleash the Nine Hells upon my enemies until their bones are nothing but cinders and smoke. :smallfurious:



Wrath of Khan
Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Bonus Action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: 1 minute

While under the effect of this spell, you can cast your spells with much more power.
Whenever you cast an Evocation or Necromancy spell that deals damage, you can expend an amount of Hit Dice up to your spellcasting ability modifier to increase the level of the spell by the same amount as if you had expended a higher level spell slot.
If you increase the spell level beyond the highest level spell slot you can normally cast, you take 1d4 damage per excess spell level or 1d6 damage per spell level past 9th.


How's that? :smallbiggrin:

[Tharkun]

Id add subclass expanded lists like cleric domain spells. Could go a long way to sure up less powerful Subclasses with good picks.

Exactly my homebrew approach.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Exactly my homebrew approach.

So like the aberrant mind sorcerer from UA?

[Kane0]

Resistance, Bane, Continual Flame, Enthrall, Magic Aura, Ray of Enfeeblement, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Nondetection, Wind Wall, Freedom of Movement, Phantasmal Killer, Conjure Elemental, Destructive Wave, Maelstrom, Antimagic Field, Control Weather, Feeblemind, Mind Blank, Telepathy, Invulnerability, Prismatic Wall

Probably not all of them depending on arguments for and against, but more importantly I think Sorcs need a few special spells to call their own.

[Garresh]

I'd give them every wizard spell and call it a day. Their spells known limitations still weaken them.

[Theaitetos]

I'd give them every wizard spell and call it a day. Their spells known limitations still weaken them.

With the new Unearthed Arcana this limitation has just grown much, much smaller.

A single sorcerer shouldn't have such a high versatility as a wizard, so wizards can keep their exclusives. But I think it's OK if different sorcerer subclasses get access to more (wizard) spells, like cleric domains. That way a single sorcerer still lacks the versatility of the wizard, but the sorcerer class as a whole would have a big variety covering all the wizard spells. There could be subclasses for spell schools like wizards: divination, necromancy, conjuration, … since with their high charisma scores it's really odd that there's no dedicated enchanter subclass for sorcs.

And maybe we'll even get the Spirit Shaman back?:smallsmile:

[Damon_Tor]

I'd give sorcerers a bunch of the self-manipulation abilities we saw in the mystic a while back.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What spells would you like to see added to the list?

The UA revisions to sorcerer have added a modest number of spells. The spells that I would most like to see are not amongst them, and most of the options don’t seem fantastic, but:

They have at least grown the list

With Spell Versatility, it has now become reasonable to play with some variety in spell choices for fun

They have added two options which can benefit from metamagic in ways that almost seem to have been deliberately avoided previously. If it’s ok to have vampiric touch, which on a sorcerer allows the function of that spell in combination with a quickened bonus action spell. and foresight which can be extended or (maybe even) twinned to great effect, maybe we can also get glibness. Sure Vampiric touch is awful on most casters, but on a sorcerer it’s nearly good, and it fits a lot of concepts. Sure most sorcerers would still pick wish over foresight for the flexibility, but maybe with spell versatility extended or (gasp) twinned (yeah I know) foresight could be a thing now.

So yeah what other spells would you really like to see added

I’d pick

Wall of force, force cage, glibness, evards black tentacles.

wall of force: Not much direct metamagic interaction, but very important for a role sorcerers should be able to fill
force cage: as above
glibness: yes this makes sorcerers with the right builds very good at mage duels, but it’s nothing bards can’t do, and sorcerers should be able to specialize into being very good at limited roles.
evard’s black tentacles: “authored” spells are generally omitted from the sorcerer list, but if I want this on a shadow sorcerer or a divine soul(shar) or heck, any dark dark darkety dark themed sorcerer, I should be able to have it... plus this is a modest level Dex save AoE control and sorcerers should have access to modest level Dex save AoE control

Thoughts?
Suggestions?

Squids?

Is there a thought here that Sorcerers are underpowered?

[Garresh]

With the new Unearthed Arcana this limitation has just grown much, much smaller.

A single sorcerer shouldn't have such a high versatility as a wizard, so wizards can keep their exclusives. But I think it's OK if different sorcerer subclasses get access to more (wizard) spells, like cleric domains. That way a single sorcerer still lacks the versatility of the wizard, but the sorcerer class as a whole would have a big variety covering all the wizard spells. There could be subclasses for spell schools like wizards: divination, necromancy, conjuration, … since with their high charisma scores it's really odd that there's no dedicated enchanter subclass for sorcs.

And maybe we'll even get the Spirit Shaman back?:smallsmile:

The problem is that Sorcs are generally seen as weaker than wizards even after they got the cleric spell list. You're right that the new change would potentially make them rival wizards, but is that really such a bad thing? They still can't ritual cast. They take FAR longer to adjust to a given challenge. Even if a sorc can dig up highly specific solutions, wizards still have far more utility in a given day via all their rituals. And with the inability to spend gold on things lategame, wizards can sink their wealth into spell scrolls with DM approval.

TBH, I don't think it would break them. Wizards are still extremely powerful. And Sorcs have been the red headed step-dragon of the arcane casters for like 20+ years now.

[stoutstien]

Is there a thought here that Sorcerers are underpowered?

Inflexible would be a better word. They are amazing at purpose built ideas but lack diversability in options.

[Theaitetos]

I think the new 5E magic system broke a core sorcerer feature: Back in previous editions, you didn't have to prepare specific spell slots and had lots of versatility during the day, as you could cast any known spell with any spell slot you still had. But now that everyone has the ability to cast any prepared spell with any spell slot, sorcerers lost a vital part of their identity. Or rather, the game mechanics no longer support their identity.

Wizards were the smart people, who prepared for the day and had to carefully analyze their situation to make plans. The sorcerers were the ones going with their gut feelings, relying on being savvy and quickly adapting to a situation. This made smart wizards really powerful, while a badly prepared wizard was little more than a sitting duck. It also worked well for the shrewd sorcerer, but not so much for the un-creative sorcerer.

Yet in 5E, there's no more careful analyzing anymore, as a wizard can now cast any of his many prepared spell as often as necessary and as upcast as necessary. A retarded wizard can still cast almost as many spells as the genius wizard with any spell slot.

I don't mind that wizards can do rituals while sorcs can't. I don't mind that wizards have a much larger spell selection. But I do mind that sorcs lost a core feature and got one – metamagic – that doesn't really fit thematically.

Metamagic is cool and awesome, but it's something that sounds much more like wizardry than sorcery. To adjust a spell by carefully changing the intricate weaving that goes into a spell is something I can imagine wizards studying at magic school – wasn't the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep the pre-eminent metamagic wizard?

I'd much rather see something that supports the emotional aspect of spellcasting for the sorcerer, where they overreact, let their passions get the better of themselves, or where they put more on the line than spell slots to fuel their magic. Further example:



DIE! DIE! DIE!
Level: Special
Casting time: Reaction
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

Immediately after you cast a spell by expending a spell slot in your turn, you can use your reaction to repeat the exact same spell with the same target again. This repetition is an exact copy that includes all modifications to the original spell like bonus damage from features metamagic options without any additional costs.

This spell requires expending a spell slot of the same level that the original spell was cast at. Your hit point maximum is decreased by 1d4 per spell slot level until you finish a long rest.




Behold its Glory!
Level: 1
Casting time: Bonus Action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: 1 minute

You intensely stare into the elemental havoc of your magic.

When you cast a spell, that requires a spell attack roll, you automatically land a critical hit.
When you cast a spell, that requires a saving throw to avoid or lessen its effects, these saving throws are made at disadvantage, and magic or features to completely avoid effects on a successful saving throw have no effect.

You can prematurely dismiss this spell as a bonus action.

When this spell ends you gain 1 level of exhaustion per round that you were affected by this spell. If the spell lasts 6 or more rounds, you fall to 0 hitpoints instead of instant death, but you immediately fail a death saving throw for any round beyond 6. You turn blind until you are no longer exhausted and finished a subsequen.


Anything that gives the sorcerers some additional magic power in return for a detrimental effect like losing hit points, a level of exhaustion, conditions like stunned or poisoned, lowered ability scores, expense of a hit die, loss of concentration, … a little bit like Deku from My Hero Academia getting wounded or Natsu from Fairy Tail ending up badly burned.

The magic of a sorcerer shouldn't feel like an academic discipline, but an exhilarating sport. A wizard should be able to envy a sorcerer's power but still scold him for the irresponsible use.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Inflexible would be a better word. They are amazing at purpose built ideas but lack diversability in options.

That sounds like a good description of differences in classes.

I once played a WWII naval miniature game where at first there were real differences between the forces of different nations.

By set whatever all these fantasy units were in game and every fleet ad access to nearly the exact same stuff.

If that's our goal here I think we should just design a generic casting class instead of killing the uniqueness of ones we have.

[Kane0]

Inflexible would be a better word. They are amazing at purpose built ideas but lack diversability in options.
Aye, and todays JC video really hammers that versatility note.


-Snip-
In previous sorcerer threads 'round these parts this has been identified as 'all casters are now spontaneous'

[Corran]

Sunfire! Bring back sunfire!
Generally I would very much prefer to see new spells added, than taking spells that make other classes unique and/or powerful and making them available to one more class. I don't want to be able to play the cleric that can use spirit guardians, Evard's tentacles and find familiar, or the warlock that can use spirit guardians, Evard's tentacles and find familiar, or the sorcerer that can use spirit guardians, Evard's tentacles and find familiar, etc. There is wide variety of spells that didn't make the jump to 5e from previous editions, so it's not like there is not a base to work with. So yeah, I'd like to see new spells added, and not existing ones (possibly with minor exceptions; eg, give shapechange to the sorcerer, or at least to the draconic sorcerer, because it's clearly thematic).

[Dr. Cliché]

I think the new 5E magic system broke a core sorcerer feature: Back in previous editions, you didn't have to prepare specific spell slots and had lots of versatility during the day, as you could cast any known spell with any spell slot you still had. But now that everyone has the ability to cast any prepared spell with any spell slot, sorcerers lost a vital part of their identity. Or rather, the game mechanics no longer support their identity.

Wizards were the smart people, who prepared for the day and had to carefully analyze their situation to make plans. The sorcerers were the ones going with their gut feelings, relying on being savvy and quickly adapting to a situation. This made smart wizards really powerful, while a badly prepared wizard was little more than a sitting duck. It also worked well for the shrewd sorcerer, but not so much for the un-creative sorcerer.

Yet in 5E, there's no more careful analyzing anymore, as a wizard can now cast any of his many prepared spell as often as necessary and as upcast as necessary. A retarded wizard can still cast almost as many spells as the genius wizard with any spell slot.

I don't mind that wizards can do rituals while sorcs can't. I don't mind that wizards have a much larger spell selection. But I do mind that sorcs lost a core feature and got one – metamagic – that doesn't really fit thematically.

Metamagic is cool and awesome, but it's something that sounds much more like wizardry than sorcery. To adjust a spell by carefully changing the intricate weaving that goes into a spell is something I can imagine wizards studying at magic school – wasn't the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep the pre-eminent metamagic wizard?

I think this is a good summary and I fully agree that Metamagic is a poor fit for Sorcerers.

I've said this before but I really wish they'd put a lot more emphasis on the bloodlines and given Sorcerers some really deep and inventive sublcass abilities. Instead, metamagic takes up so much design space that the actual bloodlines - the entire source of their abilities - just feel tacked-on.

[Daphne]

I think this is a good summary and I fully agree that Metamagic is a poor fit for Sorcerers.

Agreed, it also restrict design space for every caster. Any time something similar to MM shows up in UA, a lot of people say "that is stealing Sorcerer's toys!" (and I agree with that).

I get the impression WotC struggles to create new Wizard Schools because of this.


I've said this before but I really wish they'd put a lot more emphasis on the bloodlines and given Sorcerers some really deep and inventive sublcass abilities. Instead, metamagic takes up so much design space that the actual bloodlines - the entire source of their abilities - just feel tacked-on.

It's funny because Mearls already stated that classes like Clerics and Sorcerers get their archetype at first level because that's a big part of their core identity. Unfortunately, Metamagic seems like the actual subclass, the fact that WotC didn't realise a variant for swapping MM supports this feel.

After 6th level, you have to wait eight levels for a new subclass feature. It's really bad.