Fun with Animate Dead

[Undyne]

So, I'm in a campaign playing as a Necromancer wizard. My DM wants to give me more variety, and since he doesn't use GitP, I'm asking his question here: During lower levels, when I animate a zombie or skeleton, would it be unbalanced to apply the DMG templates for other races? For example, raising an Orc zombie would use the Zombie stats, then apply the Orc template, making them even more brain-dead (*rimshot*) and turning them into undead brutes.

[MaxWilson]

So, I'm in a campaign playing as a Necromancer wizard. My DM wants to give me more variety, and since he doesn't use GitP, I'm asking his question here: During lower levels, when I animate a zombie or skeleton, would it be unbalanced to apply the DMG templates for other races? For example, raising an Orc zombie would use the Zombie stats, then apply the Orc template, making them even more brain-dead (*rimshot*) and turning them into undead brutes.

Having done this as a DM (let my players apply racial templates), I will say there are fairly large balance implications if they pick races that increase the relevant attack bonuses: goblin archers, orc zombies, etc. It wasn't game-wrecking or anything but I view it as a downside.

[Undyne]

Having done this as a DM (let my players apply racial templates), I will say there are fairly large balance implications if they pick races that increase the relevant attack bonuses: goblin archers, orc zombies, etc. It wasn't game-wrecking or anything but I view it as a downside.

So, it's pretty much a "Yes, good idea, just be wary of what you choose"?

[MaxWilson]

So, it's pretty much a "Yes, good idea, just be wary of what you choose"?

Um, more of a "Necromancy is incredibly unbalanced already and this makes it a little moreso--YMMV whether that will be a problem in your game". IME players of Necromancers either deliberately limit themselves most of the time (zero or only a handful of skeletons) to prevent social problems and to prevent anything short of full-blown war from seeming too easy, or they get bored and make new PCs.

The upside to running things this way is that it's more logical. It doesn't make sense that goblins would produce the exact same kinds of skeletons and zombies as orcs. Since my games prioritize logic, believability, and a cohesive fantasy world over enforcing balance per se between every possible player decision/build, I chose to go the direction that made more sense. But you asked about balance implications, so... yes, there are.

[Undyne]

Um, more of a "Necromancy is incredibly unbalanced already and this makes it a little moreso--YMMV whether that will be a problem in your game". IME players of Necromancers either deliberately limit themselves most of the time (zero or only a handful of skeletons) to prevent social problems and to prevent anything short of full-blown war from seeming to easy, or they get bored and make new PCs.

The upside to running things this way is that it's more logical. It doesn't make sense that goblins would produce the exact same kinds of skeletons and zombies as orcs. Since my games prioritize logic, believability, and a cohesive fantasy world over enforcing balance per se between every possible player decision/build, I chose to go the direction that made more sense. But you asked about balance implications, so... yes, there are.

Alright, thanks! I personally don't plan on making a huge army of undead to ruin a city any time soon, I'm much more of an "Undead are simply good servants" necromancer, not an "I hate humanity and must destroy everyone" necromancer.

[sithlordnergal]

There are a few balance things, as taking the templates would, logically, allow for you to take resistances into account. But outside of that, not really. I mean, yes you end up with slightly stronger undead, but stat spread wise they aren't super different from what's already there. And while racial abilities can be useful, not all of them can be used. For example, a Yuan-Ti would make for a terrible undead. They don't get much outside of advantage on saving throws vs. spells. Undead are already immune to poison, and I can't think of many DMs that would allow a zombie to cast spells.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So, I'm in a campaign playing as a Necromancer wizard. My DM wants to give me more variety, and since he doesn't use GitP, I'm asking his question here: During lower levels, when I animate a zombie or skeleton, would it be unbalanced to apply the DMG templates for other races? For example, raising an Orc zombie would use the Zombie stats, then apply the Orc template, making them even more brain-dead (*rimshot*) and turning them into undead brutes.

I'd probably let you have Orc skeletons but give them the exact same stats as regular ones just so I don't need to give the Bard an extra inspiration dice, the Sorcerer and extra Metamagic, the Paladin an extra D8 for having a pointy holy symbol and so on and so on.

BUT, I love the idea of having a virtual zoo of skeletons or zombies following you around.

If you pressed me on why in game I'd say you only have soo much magical energy to infuse any skeleton with so an Orc skeleton is only as strong as a Human skeleton or whatever.

[Throne12]

Um, more of a "Necromancy is incredibly unbalanced already and this makes it a little moreso--YMMV whether that will be a problem in your game". IME players of Necromancers either deliberately limit themselves most of the time (zero or only a handful of skeletons) to prevent social problems and to prevent anything short of full-blown war from seeming too easy, or they get bored and make new PCs.

The upside to running things this way is that it's more logical. It doesn't make sense that goblins would produce the exact same kinds of skeletons and zombies as orcs. Since my games prioritize logic, believability, and a cohesive fantasy world over enforcing balance per se between every possible player decision/build, I chose to go the direction that made more sense. But you asked about balance implications, so... yes, there are.

Um explain how is necromancy unbalanced? Yes having a army can slow down combat if the player dont have there shLt together. But you are using all your spell slots on keeping this army. Your army is mostly 1/4 cr monsters with +3 to hit. Where any other wizard can drop fireballs, and other cool high spells.

[Afrodactyl]

As a DM I would run it one of two ways;

1. Play it by ear and it's a case by case basis. DM can veto any combination they deem too powerful for the game level, or mechanically awkward.

2. It's fluff only, and you can grab skellies that are human, orc, dwarf, kobold, etc, but it's purely for aesthetics and they all function as regular skellies.

I personally would probably err towards the second option, just for the sake of streamlining.

[Sception]

Necromancy can break action economy pretty hard, a lot of even garbage attacks can be very op when they only take a bonus action to activate for an entire encounter. Of course, unlike other high level spells, animate dead can suffer attrition over the course of a day, weakening its power before more difficult encounters unless you spend even more slots to maintain it. This is especially a problem when running into enemies with AOE attacks. Imagine playing a wizard in a game where regular enemies in early attrition fights can choose to attack your spell slots instead of your hit points. That's what playing a necromancer is like.

It's also very terrain dependent - in narrow, winding dungeons with small rooms you may be unable to bring your undead to bare at all. And it limits movement in other ways. There are several 'move the party around' spells and abilities from fly to teleport that work just fine for a party of 6, but do not work at all for a party of 6 plus a mummy, a wight, 3 ghouls, 5 zombies, and 20 skeletons.

Plus, whether the necromancer or the DM actually moves & rolls for the undead, either way that skews game time heavily away from the rest of the party. If your DM lets you order your undead to follow the orders of other party members that can help significantly by spreading the dice around and letting each of the other characters join in on the petmaster fun, but not every DM allows that, and not every player will want to even if the DM does allow it, and many characters will have their own bonus actions that they need to be using instead.

And that's before you even get to role playing hassles interacting with otherwise non-hostile communities of the living.



I'm don't think I'd call the gimmick overpowered. But unbalanced, in the sense of trivializing a lot of normal challenges while rendering some others far more difficult to navigate, or in the sense of tilting game time significantly away from whatever the campaign was about otherwise and towards handling the boney wrench you've thrown into the gears? Yeah, unbalanced is probably a fair word.

Applying racial templates to your undead does slightly exacerbate the issue by adding extra book keeping work tracking individual skeletons instead of handling them as a homogeneous group. A game that's cool with necromancy to begin with is probably cool with it, but it's worth reading the room to see whether everyone else is actually having fun with the situation already or just doing their best to tolerate it.

[NNescio]

Necromancy can break action economy pretty hard, a lot of even garbage attacks can be very op when they only take a bonus action to activate for an entire encounter. Of course, unlike other high level spells, animate dead can suffer attrition over the course of a day, weakening its power before more difficult encounters unless you spend even more slots to maintain it. This is especially a problem when running into enemies with AOE attacks.

That's when you break out Fabricate for portable cover like a wheeled mantlet or gigantic makeshift pavises (made from 'conveniently' broken bridge sections), making your DM and your fellow players hate you. Likely yourself too.

[Sigreid]

See if you can get them backpacks full of unstable explosives and make them run at the enemy with torches.

[Monster Manuel]

I think that having animated undead minions that reflect the original creature that's being animated is something that a lot of people want very much.

The 3.5 method, of having "skeleton" and "zombie" be templates that are applied to the base creature was an elegant solution in a lot of ways, but had some huge impacts by way of balance...it was nearly impossible to balance the spell properly when the same application could get you a few human commoner zombies or a cave bear zombie. The 5E method of the animate dead spell, where there is a creature called a "skeleton", and casting the spell turns a dead body into one regardless of what it was before is a lot less fun, but makes sense from a design perspective.

Being able to apply the racial template bonuses from the DMG to the skeleton or zombie strikes me as a decent middle-ground. There's some balance/optimization impact, but not as much as being able to turn anything with a body into a skeleton or zombie. You get a little of the fun from 3.5 back without all the craziness.

It's how I run it at my table. I think there are way better ways of doing it, but short of a whole homebrewed overhaul to the undead rules in 5e, I think it's the best we're gonna get.

[Sception]

I don't personally think racial mods are the best answer, most of what makes humanoid species distinct enough to warrant separate statblocks is in the muscles and nerves and brain - things that are questionably applicable to zombies and entirely absent in skeletons, to say nothing of spiritual/magical differences that should probably leave the corpse with the soul.

What I'd personally rather see is player accessible undead divorced entirely from their monstrous incarnations and instead written up as broad statblocs similar to the 'beast of the air' and 'beast of the earth' statblocks from the ranger variants in the recent UA.

'undead humanoid'
'undead beast'

etc, with enough versatility in terms of optional added traits to cover anything from generic zombies to skeletal warhorses in a relatively quick and efficient manner, with spell slot upgrades to animate/control multiple simple undead or to animate singular undead with better stats or more extravagant features like larger size for giant skeletons or flying speeds for winged zombies.

You'd of course also need a corpse suitable for whatever added features you're trying to imbue, but the corpse wouldn't necessarily need to have been a singular thing. There's a lot of narrative fun to be had in collecting dismembered corpses of multiple monsters to stitch together your own ideal undead abomination.


Granted, all that's talking about a relatively elaborate system perhaps better suited to a subclass or even an entire class than to a single spell, but eh.

[MaxWilson]

I don't personally think racial mods are the best answer, most of what makes humanoid species distinct enough to warrant separate statblocks is in the muscles and nerves and brain - things that are questionably applicable to zombies and entirely absent in skeletons, to say nothing of spiritual/magical differences that should probably leave the corpse with the soul.

The interesting thing about 5E skeletons is that they are influenced by their previous life. I'm AFB but their activities and IIRC their weapon proficiencies are governed by what they did and knew in life. There's clearly some kind of cognitive imprint left behind after the soul is gone.

[JackPhoenix]

The interesting thing about 5E skeletons is that they are influenced by their previous life. I'm AFB but their activities and IIRC their weapon proficiencies are governed by what they did and knew in life. There's clearly some kind of cognitive imprint left behind after the soul is gone.

Not proficiencies, but idle, uncontrolled skeletons sometimes mimic activities they did in life. "Independent skeletons temporarily or permanently free of a master's control sometimes pantomime actions from their past lives, their bones echoing the rote behaviors of their former living selves. The skeleton of a miner might lift a pick and start chipping away at stone walls. The skeleton of a guard might strike up a post at a random doorway. The skeleton of a dragon might lie down on a pile of treasure, while the skeleton of a horse crops grass it can't eat. Left alone in a ballroom, the skeletons of nobles might continue an eternally unfinished dance."

What I take from that is that if you keep it from noticing other creatures, you can use skeletal sheeps as autonomous undead lawnmowers.