No cigars for Shojo?

[Senex]

As the leader of the Azure City and the supreme commander of the Sapphire Guard, Shojo was bound by Soon Kim's multigenerational oath, which is much more powerful than your typical Blood Oath (the latter only allows you to send short cryptic messages to your descendants, while the former allows you to manifest in your full ethereal glory and administer a solid Smiting). And yet, he deliberately turned his back on this "silly oath" in order to have a free hand in ruling the city.

As a result of this, Shojo is now probably sitting outside the gates of his destined CG afterlife, watching his city burn to the ground and hoping that Hinjo will do a better job than he did.

[Lord Zentei]

As the leader of the Azure City and the supreme commander of the Sapphire Guard, Shojo was bound by Soon Kim's multigenerational oath, which is much more powerful than your typical Blood Oath (the latter only allows you to send short cryptic messages to your descendants, while the former allows you to manifest in your full ethereal glory and administer a solid Smiting). And yet, he deliberately turned his back on this "silly oath" in order to have a free hand in ruling the city.

As a result of this, Shojo is now probably sitting outside the gates of his destined CG afterlife, watching his city burn to the ground and hoping that Hinjo will do a better job than he did.

Er: he was Chaotic Good. Rejecting an oath because he believed it to be in the interests of the greater good is not anathema to the CG alignment.

Now, had he been Lawful Good, he might have had problems...

[The Extinguisher]

He was never a paladin. Hence, never had to worry about those silly things like oaths and lawfulness.

[Dode]

As the leader of the Azure City and the supreme commander of the Sapphire Guard, Shojo was bound by Soon Kim's multigenerational oath, which is much more powerful than your typical Blood Oath (the latter only allows you to send short cryptic messages to your descendants, while the former allows you to manifest in your full ethereal glory and administer a solid Smiting). And yet, he deliberately turned his back on this "silly oath" in order to have a free hand in ruling the city.

As a result of this, Shojo is now probably sitting outside the gates of his destined CG afterlife, watching his city burn to the ground and hoping that Hinjo will do a better job than he did.Haha your logic sucks.

[silvadel]

It was the first poorly written legal document he dispatched.

[Deathwisher]

As the leader of the Azure City and the supreme commander of the Sapphire Guard, Shojo was bound by Soon Kim's multigenerational oath, which is much more powerful than your typical Blood Oath (the latter only allows you to send short cryptic messages to your descendants, while the former allows you to manifest in your full ethereal glory and administer a solid Smiting). And yet, he deliberately turned his back on this "silly oath" in order to have a free hand in ruling the city.

A) Shojo was not decended from Soon Kim, so the situation is not at all alike.

B) The reason that Soon Kim's spirit was allowed to manifest himself in the throne room was so he could defend the gate. Shojo never neglected that duty. He did the best he could to protect the gate. What he violated was the oath to stay away from the other gates.

C) Free hand in ruling the city? This statement makes no sense. He violated the oath in his dealings with Roy. Those had nothing to do with ruling the city and everything with protecting the gate.

D) Why would the strength of an oath automatically be measured in terms of what it allows you to do after death. These are two separate oaths, sworn by different people under different circumstances. In fact, we don't know the exact wording of Soon's oath, so we have no idea how it works. For example: we have seen no evidence, that swearing Soon's oath has any bearings on a paladin's children.

E) How was the fall of Azur City and its Gate Shojo's fault? His dealings with OOTS (which is the part where he violated an oath) had nothing to do with Xykon's decision to attack. That would have happened anyway. Perhaps if Shojo had been alive the nobles wouldn't have deserted the city and maybe that would have turned the tide of the battle, but that is doubtful at best. In any case, Miko is the one who bears responsibility for that situation, not Shojo.

F) As other posters have already stated, Shojo was chaotic, so his willingness to violate an oath he considered foolish and counterproductive should have no bearing on his afterlife. If anything, he acted perfectly according to alignment.



As a result of this, Shojo is now probably sitting outside the gates of his destined CG afterlife, watching his city burn to the ground and hoping that Hinjo will do a better job than he did.

Perhaps it is me, but I fail to see the logic behind thist statement

[Dragon_Keeper]

As a result of this, Shojo is now probably sitting outside the gates of his destined CG afterlife, watching his city burn to the ground and hoping that Hinjo will do a better job than he did.

Well, Shojo protected the gate and city for many years, and Hinjo lost both in his first month. I'm not saying that's Hinjo's fault, he came into power at a really bad time, but Shojo did a good job. Shojo's only mistake was hiring Miko.

[Porthos]

It was the first poorly written legal document he dispatched.

Now that's funny. :smallamused:

[Kreistor]

I don't own the books, but I am reasonably assured that a Blood Oath has a fairly involved and painful ritual attached. It's not just saying a few words involving your family.

That doesn't seem like an appropriate thing to demand of a city's ruler. He probably swore a long and involved oath, but with no ritual involved, it wouldn't have bite at the judgement stage of the afterlife.

[factotum]

The Oath that constrains members of the Sapphire Guard to guard the gate even after death, which I assume is what we're talking about, was only sworn by Paladins--note that Hinjo tells Durkon that there's a reason they only put paladins in the throne room. Since Shojo was a 14th level Aristocrat he presumably never swore that oath.

[David Argall]

E) How was the fall of Azur City and its Gate Shojo's fault? His dealings with OOTS (which is the part where he violated an oath) had nothing to do with Xykon's decision to attack. That would have happened anyway. Perhaps if Shojo had been alive the nobles wouldn't have deserted the city and maybe that would have turned the tide of the battle, but that is doubtful at best. In any case, Miko is the one who bears responsibility for that situation, not Shojo.


No, Shojo bears the prime responsibility here. Miko did her bit to make things worse, but it was Shojo who was engaged in illegal activities that caused him to be deposed. He had to know there was a risk that he would be exposed, and that if he was exposed, it would probably be at an inconvenient time for the city. [One can argue there is no such thing as a convenient time for a sudden change in rulers, but, as did happen, it would be at the emergency times that people get careless and his secret would be most likely to be exposed, thus causing a crisis when there was already too much trouble.]

Actually, if one is willing to be more Macavellian than any of those other than Shojo would consider being, Miko might have been doing Hinjo a favor in killing Shojo. Shojo quietly pleading guilty and supporting Hinjo might have been useful, but if we give Shojo the least desire to stay the boss who gets to have all the fun or even just a desire not to die in a jail cell, he could be highly inconvenient to have around. His crimes almost entirely center on the Gate, which the paladins are sworn not to mention and there are laws against mentioning. There are also a lot of powerful nobles who may not like the idea of a new ruler. They start yelling about Shojo being railroaded into jail and you could have a real mess. Under a non-paladin government, this sort of thing can lead to Shojo's tea having "special flavoring", but it is unlikely Hinjo would allow such a solution.
Miko was a very valuable asset to lose right before the sort of fighting she would have been most useful in, and the political dangers were only possible dangers, but if it had been Shojo Jr inheriting instead of Hinjo, he might have felt relieved about Sr getting sliced.

[....]

As a result of this, Shojo is now probably sitting outside the gates of his destined CG afterlife, watching his city burn to the ground and hoping that Hinjo will do a better job than he did.


No. He's surrounded by beautiful, naked women and all the sake he can drink. He's having an awesome time.

Remember when they tried to ressurect him? He was like, "Nuh uh, bitches, I'm IN now!"

I doubt he's paying much attention to the plight of Azure City at all anymore. He did his time, now he's enjoying his reward.

[lavidor10]

No, Shojo bears the prime responsibility here. Miko did her bit to make things worse, but it was Shojo who was engaged in illegal activities that caused him to be deposed. He had to know there was a risk that he would be exposed, and that if he was exposed, it would probably be at an inconvenient time for the city. [One can argue there is no such thing as a convenient time for a sudden change in rulers, but, as did happen, it would be at the emergency times that people get careless and his secret would be most likely to be exposed, thus causing a crisis when there was already too much trouble.]

Actually, if one is willing to be more Macavellian than any of those other than Shojo would consider being, Miko might have been doing Hinjo a favor in killing Shojo. Shojo quietly pleading guilty and supporting Hinjo might have been useful, but if we give Shojo the least desire to stay the boss who gets to have all the fun or even just a desire not to die in a jail cell, he could be highly inconvenient to have around. His crimes almost entirely center on the Gate, which the paladins are sworn not to mention and there are laws against mentioning. There are also a lot of powerful nobles who may not like the idea of a new ruler. They start yelling about Shojo being railroaded into jail and you could have a real mess. Under a non-paladin government, this sort of thing can lead to Shojo's tea having "special flavoring", but it is unlikely Hinjo would allow such a solution.
Miko was a very valuable asset to lose right before the sort of fighting she would have been most useful in, and the political dangers were only possible dangers, but if it had been Shojo Jr inheriting instead of Hinjo, he might have felt relieved about Sr getting sliced.

Just wanting to know: where did you get the idea that tampering with gates was illegal? For it to be illegal all the stuff about the gates needs to be in the lawbooks, and we know it was secret. Although what Shojo did was against the oath he took, it wasn't against Azure City law.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much, yes.

Now lets imagine Miko HADN'T killed Shojo. The Gurd took him away, questioned him under Zone of Truth, and found out he hadn't commited any actual crimes against the city, merely abused his post as commander of the Sapphire Guard.

The logical and legal thing to do would be to reinstate him as ruler of the city but depose him as leader of the Guard. The question is: is the post of Head of Guard hereditory, automatically going to leader of city? And if leader of city becomes disqualified, does his heir automatically become leader of the Guard? If so, we would have Shojo ruling city and his disapproving nephew Hinjo commanding Guard.

Does Guard have any legal standing in itself? I always regarded it as a secret organization with no actual legal standing. The fact that the law enforcement of the city belong to it is irrelevant: they get their authority as members of agency, NOT as members of the secret society "Most of the city doesn't know we exist. Which incidentally makes it hard to redeem these gift vouchers" Since existance of paladins in city is obvious, it must mean that the secret organization with no actual legal standing, is whats hidden.

[Jawajoey]

No, Shojo bears the prime responsibility here. Miko did her bit to make things worse, but it was Shojo who was engaged in illegal activities that caused him to be deposed. He had to know there was a risk that he would be exposed, and that if he was exposed, it would probably be at an inconvenient time for the city. [One can argue there is no such thing as a convenient time for a sudden change in rulers, but, as did happen, it would be at the emergency times that people get careless and his secret would be most likely to be exposed, thus causing a crisis when there was already too much trouble.]

Actually, if one is willing to be more Macavellian than any of those other than Shojo would consider being, Miko might have been doing Hinjo a favor in killing Shojo. Shojo quietly pleading guilty and supporting Hinjo might have been useful, but if we give Shojo the least desire to stay the boss who gets to have all the fun or even just a desire not to die in a jail cell, he could be highly inconvenient to have around. His crimes almost entirely center on the Gate, which the paladins are sworn not to mention and there are laws against mentioning. There are also a lot of powerful nobles who may not like the idea of a new ruler. They start yelling about Shojo being railroaded into jail and you could have a real mess. Under a non-paladin government, this sort of thing can lead to Shojo's tea having "special flavoring", but it is unlikely Hinjo would allow such a solution.
Miko was a very valuable asset to lose right before the sort of fighting she would have been most useful in, and the political dangers were only possible dangers, but if it had been Shojo Jr inheriting instead of Hinjo, he might have felt relieved about Sr getting sliced.

That doesn't make any sense. Deathwisher was spot on.

Shojo bears more responsibility than Miko? Shojo did his best to protect his city and the gate, but in a way that led to potentially risky circumstances. Miko murdered the leader of the city knowing full well that an invasion was imminent. You can't possibly suggest that Shojo was more responsible for the conflict than Miko. By your logic, Soon himself is very guilty, for creating an oath that led to so may problems down the line. He should have known there might be a conflict of interests down the line.

Shojo should have known that he would probably be found out and killed at an inconvenient time? What? He's a crafty SOB, the kind who doesn't plan on getting murdered any time soon. He was even preparing to be found out. One bit of bad luck is the only that unraveled it. And what would indicate that he would probably be confronted at an inconvenient time? That's just ridiculous.

You know what, I'm not even going to continue. You HAVE to be joking. I'm sorry I took the bait.

[Deathwisher]

That doesn't make any sense. Deathwisher was spot on.


:xykon: Amen brother, preach it! :smallsmile:

Seriously, David, do you expect Shojo to be omniscient? he had a plan that was quite effective in itself. he just made two mistakes: 1) He talked a little too loudly, allowing Miko to overhear. 2) He never realized just how unstable she was. If you want to blame him for something, blame him for not locking her up earlier.

[Lord Zentei]

Though the OP makes little sense, I feel I must nitpick here:


A) Shojo was not decended from Soon Kim, so the situation is not at all alike.

Linka (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html). Shojo swore the oath upon assuming command of the Sapphire Guard. Whether the oath is multigenerational is not relevant.


E) How was the fall of Azur City and its Gate Shojo's fault? His dealings with OOTS (which is the part where he violated an oath) had nothing to do with Xykon's decision to attack. That would have happened anyway. Perhaps if Shojo had been alive the nobles wouldn't have deserted the city and maybe that would have turned the tide of the battle, but that is doubtful at best. In any case, Miko is the one who bears responsibility for that situation, not Shojo.

He bears responsibility for having lied to her despite being her surrogate father. A manipulative jerk, much like his buddy Eugene. Although, his intentions in said manipulations were more noble, certainly. :smallwink:


That doesn't make any sense. Deathwisher was spot on.

Shojo bears more responsibility than Miko? Shojo did his best to protect his city and the gate, but in a way that led to potentially risky circumstances. Miko murdered the leader of the city knowing full well that an invasion was imminent.

To be fair, she was labouring under the delusion that he was in collaboration with that very invasion force. :smallwink:

Mainly due to previously mentioned deceptions being revealed, combined with a bunch of unfortunate circumstances (and a lot of hot-headedness).

Not that this lessens Miko's guilt, mind, but it is disingenuous to assert that Shojo bears no blame at all.


:xykon: Amen brother, preach it! :smallsmile:

Seriously, David, do you expect Shojo to be omniscient? he had a plan that was quite effective in itself. he just made two mistakes: 1) He talked a little too loudly, allowing Miko to overhear. 2) He never realized just how unstable she was. If you want to blame him for something, blame him for not locking her up earlier.

Ya. What I said above. :smallwink:

[Elfanatic]

No. He's surrounded by beautiful, naked women and all the sake he can drink. He's having an awesome time.

Remember when they tried to ressurect him? He was like, "Nuh uh, bitches, I'm IN now!"

I doubt he's paying much attention to the plight of Azure City at all anymore. He did his time, now he's enjoying his reward.

Quoted for asewomeness.