mixing technology

[xyamius]

Currently working on building a Campaign/world for a later game.

The pc's will be from Modern d20 level 3 same with the gear and going into a 3.5 dnd world setting.

What I am planning on is: The players are part of a forward search and recon/science team. That is working for a multi-billion dollar company that has privately found a way to open a portal to "other" dimensional planets.

The players are coming from a non magic world which is only science based and dominated with humans. Their base orders are recon and not to interact with any of the inhabitants if encountered.

The players will be set up with a basecamp that has several armed npc's, scientists and others working to exploit the dnd universe's resources.

So here are my questions;

What possible issues are there between the systems that could cause major imbalances?

Would a manufactured firearm of modern d20 be considered enchantable in 3.5?

[RatElemental]

Would a manufactured firearm of modern d20 be considered enchantable in 3.5?

I've never played d20 modern, so I can't answer if there are any systemic differences that will lead to issues, but this question in particular is something only you can answer.

There are a lot of reasons it either could or couldn't, and a bunch of quirks you can throw in for story reasons.

In favor, there's the fact that bows and crossbows can be enchanted. On the other hand, maybe the magic will mess with the gunpowder, but then what if you got special alchemical gunpowder?

The most interesting question to answer would be what happens if you take the enchanted gun back to the no magic world, I'd rule that the player's home world effectively acts as a dead magic plane: All enchanted gear stops being enchanted (or just stops working until you take it back to the magic place). Spells with a duration other than instantaneous end. So on and so forth.

Alchemical items brought back could still work, they're supposedly entirely mundane. But they also might not, because they might only be mundanely using a different set of physical laws to work.

[Railak]

The only major "balance" issues I could forsee is the d20 base classes tend to run rather weak compared to the D&D 3.5 brethren. But the lack of class power is made up for with the available technological equipment. They shouldn't have much issue with beasts or strength type enemies. Magical enemies could pose some issues.

Now for treating guns themselves as magic weapons I personally wouldn't do it, but maybe down the road letting them find a way to make magical ammo, or allow them to enchant the guns too.

[frogglesmash]

The main issue I can foresee is that d20 modern, despite having firearms, assumes the PCs will be dishing out far less damage than 3.5 characters. This becomes a problem when overcoming DR, as well as interactions with D20 modern's massive facade system. Iirc, there's also no energy/ability drain in d20 modern, and as a result, no way to recover from it.
Also, 3.5 magic just outstrips almost everything in d20 modern in terms of power and versatility. Shocking, I know.

TL;DR: There's a power imbalance between 3.5 and d20 modern that skews in 3.5's favour.

[unseenmage]

I recommend using Pathfinder's tech rules.
Which boil down to, price it like magic, but its nonmagical.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The main issue I can foresee is that d20 modern, despite having firearms, assumes the PCs will be dishing out far less damage than 3.5 characters. This becomes a problem when overcoming DR, as well as interactions with D20 modern's massive facade system. Iirc, there's also no energy/ability drain in d20 modern, and as a result, no way to recover from it.
Also, 3.5 magic just outstrips almost everything in d20 modern in terms of power and versatility. Shocking, I know.

TL;DR: There's a power imbalance between 3.5 and d20 modern that skews in 3.5's favour.

If anything, Froggle is seriously underselling the difference here. Once you've decided whether to homogenize some of the core rules (like massive damage) to one system or the other the disparity is -massive- between even a moderate level NPC warrior with his NPC wealth worth of gear and an equal level modern hero. The kind of damage they can both deal out and absorb are on different levels while spellcasters are a nightmare challenge for the latter and the former has -no- answer to them at all when you've apparently snipped that chapter from the D20 modern core rulebook.

It's also noteworthy, btw, that modern tends to assume things won't go much past level 12 or so if you actually look at how it's structured.

If you want to see what kind of horror the difference can wreak, consider what even a young adult red dragon can do to basically -anything- out of the whole of D20 modern without the "SFX" bits. That's a mid-level challenge for D&D characters. If the modern heroes don't come at it with a fighter jet or some serious future tech, it's gonna utterly shred. Even if they do, anything less than a freakin mech is going to struggle mightily.

[xyamius]

If you want to see what kind of horror the difference can wreak, consider what even a young adult red dragon can do to basically -anything- out of the whole of D20 modern without the "SFX" bits. That's a mid-level challenge for D&D characters. If the modern heroes don't come at it with a fighter jet or some serious future tech, it's gonna utterly shred. Even if they do, anything less than a freakin mech is going to struggle mightily.

Disagree; Young adult Red Dragon, Size H, HD:19d12+95 (218) Stat block: 31/10/21/14/15/14
Base attack/ Grapple +19/+37
Attack: +27
Saves +16/+11/+13
Breath weapon: 10d10, Save DC (24)
Freight Full Presence DC: 21
CR: 13
Speed 40', Fly 150' poor
Initiative: +0
AC: 26 (-2 size, +18 nat) 8 touch, 26 flat.
DR 5/magic
Cast level 5th
SR 19
Immune to fire, vulnerable to cold

It dies from sustained heavy fire/sniper fire. Unlike in 3.5 where the players are having to bunch up for melee and shout to each other the options in Modern it allows the players to use tech to navigate and communicate from range and target prey with the use of optical camo and subvocal microphones. The weapon damage at that level will be at minimum 3d8-3d10 a shot. Now adjust that to wanting to capture and add in DC 18 tranquilizers and 3 snipers firing 2-3 shots each at a huge flying payout depending on class for attacks. For the toxin roll don't forget to compound the save due to each toxin adds +2 to the dc and +1 to the duration on average it is making a DC 24+ fort save each round at least pending rolls.

It will probably be in a cage with a Charizard sticker on it by the end of the night instead of wreaking havoc.

[frogglesmash]

Disagree; Young adult Red Dragon, Size H, HD:19d12+95 (218) Stat block: 31/10/21/14/15/14
Base attack/ Grapple +19/+37
Attack: +27
Saves +16/+11/+13
Breath weapon: 10d10, Save DC (24)
Freight Full Presence DC: 21
CR: 13
Speed 40', Fly 150' poor
Initiative: +0
AC: 26 (-2 size, +18 nat) 8 touch, 26 flat.
DR 5/magic
Cast level 5th
SR 19
Immune to fire, vulnerable to cold

It dies from sustained heavy fire/sniper fire. Unlike in 3.5 where the players are having to bunch up for melee and shout to each other the options in Modern it allows the players to use tech to navigate and communicate from range and target prey with the use of optical camo and subvocal microphones. The weapon damage at that level will be at minimum 3d8-3d10 a shot. Now adjust that to wanting to capture and add in DC 18 tranquilizers and 3 snipers firing 2-3 shots each at a huge flying payout depending on class for attacks. For the toxin roll don't forget to compound the save due to each toxin adds +2 to the dc and +1 to the duration on average it is making a DC 24+ fort save each round at least pending rolls.

It will probably be in a cage with a Charizard sticker on it by the end of the night instead of wreaking havoc.

Blindsense doesn't care about your optical camouflage, and neither does the dragon's ludicrously high spot and listen checks, and once he does spot the PCs, all of his attacks have at minimum a 50% chance of outright killing most PCs due to how massive damage works in d20 modern, and with a +27 to attack, he won't be missing. The PCs have at best a 50% chance of even hitting the thing, and that drops further if they're using double tap, or burst fire, on top of that they've got to deal with DR meaning they're only dealing somewhere between 4, and 17 each time the manage to even hit the thing. On top of all that, the dragon's a fifth level sorcerer. Pick any two defensive buffs and suddenly he's nigh on untouchable. As for the toxins, I'm not sure how tranq darts interact with DR, or where the rules about compounding saves are from, but yeah, they might get lucky on that front, provided they manage to actually hit the thing. Being able to do it before the dragon kills half of them is another matter entirely.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Disagree; Young adult Red Dragon, Size H, HD:19d12+95 (218) Stat block: 31/10/21/14/15/14
Base attack/ Grapple +19/+37
Attack: +27
Saves +16/+11/+13
Breath weapon: 10d10, Save DC (24)
Freight Full Presence DC: 21
CR: 13
Speed 40', Fly 150' poor
Initiative: +0
AC: 26 (-2 size, +18 nat) 8 touch, 26 flat.
DR 5/magic
Cast level 5th
SR 19
Immune to fire, vulnerable to cold

It dies from sustained heavy fire/sniper fire. Unlike in 3.5 where the players are having to bunch up for melee and shout to each other the options in Modern it allows the players to use tech to navigate and communicate from range and target prey with the use of optical camo and subvocal microphones. The weapon damage at that level will be at minimum 3d8-3d10 a shot. Now adjust that to wanting to capture and add in DC 18 tranquilizers and 3 snipers firing 2-3 shots each at a huge flying payout depending on class for attacks. For the toxin roll don't forget to compound the save due to each toxin adds +2 to the dc and +1 to the duration on average it is making a DC 24+ fort save each round at least pending rolls.

It will probably be in a cage with a Charizard sticker on it by the end of the night instead of wreaking havoc.

Wind wall. Your snipers are helpless. It's not just CL 5, it's casting as a level 5 sorcerer with all the power that entails.

That aside the beast is -fast- too. Getting in and out of engagement range is nothing unless you're in a vehicle. A simple breath strafe can slay dozens unless they're too spread out for focus fire to be a realistic option (strafing breath feat: 9098 ft2 ovoid area). Its senses make pinpointing the targets a mild annoyance even if their optic camo makes them outright invisible (spot +24, blindsense 60ft). AC 26 is nothing to sneeze at either. Without a fire-control system, a modern hero is going to have a serious problem hitting that reliably even at point-blank range, nevermind from several range increments away. That 5 damage off the top of every hit means antimaterial weapons or don't bother since it can almost certainly heal itself (gets to pull from the cleric list as well as the sorc/wiz for spells known).

BTW, did you seriously propose using tranq's at dc 18 when the beast makes that on anything but a natural 1?

There's a reason there's nothing even vaguely similar in the modern monster lists. It's a horror.

EDIT: Partially ninja'd.

[icefractal]

I would say that if you want things on a more interesting playing field, use the PF firearm rules, with the modern damage values (still not amazing, but like 3d10 or so for rifles IIRC) and give them ranges based on actual guns.

Now you're talking about touch attacks from far enough away that 60' blindsense doesn't help much, and spread out enough that a breath weapon only hits 1-2. The dragon is still being slowly chipped down, and can probably flee if it wants to, but if it stays things could go either way.

[Crake]

Is the premise of this inspired by the anime "Gate"?

[ngilop]

Am i the only one getting not a mixing of technology vibe but a mixing of systems vibe?

I understand that d20 modern and D&D are all using the BASE system, but in the end they are different entities.

the OP should stick to one or the other and just use that system


I know d20 modern has bugbears in it. so i would assume that at some point they made a d20 modern book with magic ( it is one of the reasons why i couldn't play d20 modern)

The universe of d20 modern and the universe(s) of D&D work with completely different assumptions. I wholly believe that mixing the two is beyond a foolish thing to do and in the end is going to cause more headaches for you and more dissapointment for the whole group.

[PraxisVetli]

Currently working on building a Campaign/world for a later game.

The pc's will be from Modern d20 level 3 same with the gear and going into a 3.5 dnd world setting.

What I am planning on is: The players are part of a forward search and recon/science team. That is working for a multi-billion dollar company that has privately found a way to open a portal to "other" dimensional planets.

The players are coming from a non magic world which is only science based and dominated with humans. Their base orders are recon and not to interact with any of the inhabitants if encountered.

The players will be set up with a basecamp that has several armed npc's, scientists and others working to exploit the dnd universe's resources.

So here are my questions;

What possible issues are there between the systems that could cause major imbalances?

Would a manufactured firearm of modern d20 be considered enchantable in 3.5?

I'm currently running a game that crosses beams.
Big things so far are:
Ammunition for guns, especially if you allow Path of War content. -looking at you, Phantom Sun Stance.

Full auto rules are worthless. We houseruled it to be: target a square, make an attack roll, everything rolls reflex with the Attack as the DC. Otherwise it's a static DC 15, which after level 5, nothing will fail, and wayyy too many things have evasion to render your full round suddenly worthless.

Otherwise, honestly, guns haven't changed much. We allow enchants and everything as normal, and while no one wields a bow, at least 5 of 7 players rely on melee weapons still, and only one uses a gun.

[Berenger]

Would a manufactured firearm of modern d20 be considered enchantable in 3.5?

A weapon in D&D 3.5 must be mastercrafted (it's called masterworked in d20 Modern) to hold an enchantment, so I guess a Glock 17 or an HK PSG1 could be enchanted but a Desert Eagle or a Remington 700 couldn't.

This restriction isn't in place in d20 Modern itself, however: http://www.d20resources.com/arcana.d20.srd/fx.items/weapons.php

[Kelb_Panthera]

Am i the only one getting not a mixing of technology vibe but a mixing of systems vibe?

I understand that d20 modern and D&D are all using the BASE system, but in the end they are different entities.

the OP should stick to one or the other and just use that system

That's honestly not bad advice. Obviously, if you go with D&D then you'll need to import firearms, vehicles and the like from somewhere and the modern manuals are good for that still but there's no two ways about the fact D&D is -way- more high-power than Modern.



I know d20 modern has bugbears in it. so i would assume that at some point they made a d20 modern book with magic ( it is one of the reasons why i couldn't play d20 modern)

??? The core rulebook has a whole "SFX" section that has both vancian magic and psionics. They're associated with advanced classes and toned -way- down from D&D but they're definitely there.

Then there's the Urban Arcana supplement. It's a pure modern fantasy setting that imports a host of low-level D&D stuff and adds a few new ideas that are unique to a modern fantasy setting, like a literal automotive wizard.


The universe of d20 modern and the universe(s) of D&D work with completely different assumptions. I wholly believe that mixing the two is beyond a foolish thing to do and in the end is going to cause more headaches for you and more dissapointment for the whole group.

He ain't wrong but there may be something to be said for the result if you put up with those headaches long enough to hash it all out. At bare minimum, I actually import the treat injury skill's uses to D&D for a bit of completely mundane healing and to make the heal skill more valuable in a world where magical healing is a thing.

[icefractal]

A weapon in D&D 3.5 must be mastercrafted (it's called masterworked in d20 Modern) to hold an enchantment, so I guess a Glock 17 or an HK PSG1 could be enchanted but a Desert Eagle or a Remington 700 couldn't.

This restriction isn't in place in d20 Modern itself, however: http://www.d20resources.com/arcana.d20.srd/fx.items/weapons.php
I feel like modern standards of precision in manufacturing would count as at least masterwork.

Unless the factor is not the inherent quality, but the fact that it was regarded as special by the creator. But in that case a Wizard using Fabricate to produce several dozen masterwork swords from a wall of iron probably shouldn't qualify either, and at most tables it does.

[xyamius]

I feel like modern standards of precision in manufacturing would count as at least masterwork.

Unless the factor is not the inherent quality, but the fact that it was regarded as special by the creator. But in that case a Wizard using Fabricate to produce several dozen masterwork swords from a wall of iron probably shouldn't qualify either, and at most tables it does.

That was what I was thinking. While they don't provide the +1 attack bonus I don't see why they wouldn't be considered master crafted since they are machined to a millimeter of perfection.

The issue I am still working on is in the lower levels of Divine magic vs Modern due to a cleric turns in to a T1000 unless you use knockout gas or tranquilizer darts on them. While arcane and Psion's are still nasty I think Modern can deal with them due to the increased AC and damage it puts out.

For the FX cross over I'll leave it up to the pc's on how they convert over if they go tech with drones, guns, dabble in spells or attempt to unlock some psionic latent ability they may have. This is due to as they go they will find spell books, discover the supernatural and other stuff of DND.

What I did was put them under the charge of a well funded organization removing the need of resources and reputation from the Modern side to make that easier to manage. Changed to the non-lethal damage rules of 3.5 due to the non-lethal rules of modern are busted (an equal level to CR brawler can punch most things to death via nonlethal stun/knockout and then switching to lethal and the enemy would never get an attack). Going with the healing rules of modern at start and the party will have an NPC base camp with a fully stocked medical bay, armory, research and such. The parties primary goal is to prove high value return which can't be done just via dungeon crawl, kick down the door, kill the baddies and loot the room. More of an RP and Exploration/Exploitation with deception campaign where skills and thought are more important than damage and spells.

With Spell casters/Psion's when they get up to mid-high levels they always get deadly. Arcane casters especially at top tier turn into deity grade if built right due to they just walk around doing what they want because there really is no threat to them except other high tier arcane casters in 3.5. Arcane casters if the target is immune to magic they just alter the terrain around it and use that to kill it.