Berserker Fix

[KorvinStarmast]

I had an idea about Berserker Barbarians, and I'd like the Playground's opinion on this.

Dump the exhaustion bit, since that mechanic is a freaking mess all the way around.

Let's try this, by making it similar to the Fighter's Action surge or second wind ... and various class features that trigger off of Cha Mod or Int Mod ...

Frenzy

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. You can make as many Frenzied bonus action attacks as your Constitution modifier. (minimum of one) You recover these after a short or long rest.
Or

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. You can make as many Frenzied bonus action attacks as your Proficiency Bonus. You recover these after a short or long rest.

The former one is more thematic in terms of being related to health/stamina. It's a limited resource but it is a useful one. And this edition is certainly a resource management game in a lot of ways.

Where does this blow up or get exploited?

Bottom Line: The Exhaustion Mechanic Penalty blows chunks.

[stoutstien]

I don't see how just removing the exhaustion and keeping the ba attack is out of line. Ba attacks are so common to start with and being tied to rage keeps it from becoming a huge issue Compared to let's say Divine smite.

[Zhorn]

Berserkers need a little attention, especially with zealot showing it up at higher levels more reliably with none of the downsides.

It's still a dpr machine when the moons align and you are getting all your per round attacks going off, but the exhaustion cost is a bit steep.
Cut out the exhaustion entirely and fairs a bit too well in the early levels, considering weapon size, modifier, reliably accessible, etc (compared to other bonus action attacks)
With the additional changes of either
Limited BA Attacks based of Con mod, or
Limited BA Attacks based of Proficiency mod
might hold it back a little in those early levels, but it will still be reliably beat out by zealot at late game.

I do like the angle your fishing for, and think the short rest part is a good direction.

What I've done at my table is the following:
Frenzy grants temporary exhaustion (all stacks clear on a short or long rest).
At Barbarian level 11, you can make 2 bonus action attacks with Frenzy instead of 1.

Keeps Berserker ahead of Zealot at a cost, but that cost is more reasonable managed.

[Damon_Tor]

I had an idea about Berserker Barbarians, and I'd like the Playground's opinion on this.

Dump the exhaustion bit, since that mechanic is a freaking mess all the way around.

Let's try this, by making it similar to the Fighter's Action surge or second wind ... and various class features that trigger off of Cha Mod or Int Mod ...

Frenzy

Or


The former one is more thematic in terms of being related to health/stamina. It's a limited resource but it is a useful one. And this edition is certainly a resource management game in a lot of ways.

Where does this blow up or get exploited?

Bottom Line: The Exhaustion Mechanic Penalty blows chunks.

I don't really care for tracking another resource. I'd rather seen them tied to an existing resource. Hit dice would be thematic, though I've seen people get annoyed by the suggestion of spending hit dice as a resource for other features.

The math I've seen bandied about suggests that a Zealot matches a berserker while they're using the bonus action attack from PAM. Thus, my solution for parity would be to introduce a feat which mitigates fatigue, not alter the frenzy mechanic itself directly. Something like:


Vigor
Increase your Constitution score by 1, up to a maximum of 20. In addition, whenever you spend one or more hit dice to recover hitpoints during a short rest, you can remove from yourself one of the following conditions per hit die spent-
One level of exhaustion
One disease
Poisoned
Blinded
Deafened
Paralyzed

[stoutstien]

Berserkers need a little attention, especially with zealot showing it up at higher levels more reliably with none of the downsides.

It's still a dpr machine when the moons align and you are getting all your per round attacks going off, but the exhaustion cost is a bit steep.
Cut out the exhaustion entirely and fairs a bit too well in the early levels, considering weapon size, modifier, reliably accessible, etc (compared to other bonus action attacks)
With the additional changes of either
Limited BA Attacks based of Con mod, or
Limited BA Attacks based of Proficiency mod
might hold it back a little in those early levels, but it will still be reliably beat out by zealot at late game.

I do like the angle your fishing for, and think the short rest part is a good direction.

What I've done at my table is the following:
Frenzy grants temporary exhaustion (all stacks clear on a short or long rest).
At Barbarian level 11, you can make 2 bonus action attacks with Frenzy instead of 1.

Keeps Berserker ahead of Zealot at a cost, but that cost is more reasonable managed.

I guess it comes down to where we want the subclass to sit damage wise. I personally want it to be the damage leader seeing how it doesn't get the damage reduction, tanking, or Resource reduction that the other get.

In a featless game they would have a decent lead but once another subclass grabs PAM and or GWM we are looking at less than ~6 damage per round. So in reality it just a chance for them to sure up defense (res Wis) or expand exploration (observant or such).

[HappyDaze]

I don't like having to track both rages and a separate resource within rages.

[Petrocorus]

Bonus action attacks are powerful, but not that uncommon.
PAM gives it and can combine with GWM. GWM can give it too.
Fighting with two weapons gives it, even if it's in a wonky way.
Monks gets it, with damages on par with TWF.

I use a fix that i saw on this board a few years back, costing Hit Dice instead.
But honestly, in hindsight, just removing the cost altogether would not be that broken, compared to what gets some other Barbarian subclasses.

[Theodoxus]

The whole reason that it costs exhaustion is that the BA isn't tied to anything. You can make any other action and still make an attack - which is powerful, but honestly, how often does it come up?

Remove exhaustion, tie the BA to an attack, like every other free BA (ranger, twf, martial arts, etc.) and be done.

I guess, if you can tie in either option OP suggests to still have that non-attack pre-req BA attack, but I still think Frenzy should be free if it's tied to an attack.

[Daphne]

I'd just tie the BA to Reckless Attack: "when you use Reckless Attack, you can make an additional attack as a bonus action."

Right from the flavor text:


you thrill in the chaos of battle, heedless of your own health or well-being

[Petrocorus]

I'd just tie the BA to Reckless Attack: "when you use Reckless Attack, you can make an additional attack as a bonus action."


Oh yes, i like this. BA attack when you reckless attack during Rage.
You have a cost/condition that is quite reasonable (forcing you to reckless attack) while not completely negligible.

[HappyDaze]

I'd just tie the BA to Reckless Attack: "when you use Reckless Attack, you can make an additional attack as a bonus action."

Right from the flavor text:

Simple, flavorful, and effective. I approve.

[N810]

I ran a berserker all the way to lvl 20 with the
"Frenzy grants temporary exhaustion (all stacks clear on a short or long rest)." house rule,

I only frenzied more than twice once when we where up against a wall over a pit of acid fighting a black dragon, I used my last possible frenzy and struck the final blow. I then collapsed into a heap as by battle wary party members dragged me out of dungeon as the lower levels filled with acid. as a reward my DM revealed a secret plotline where I would
encounter and battle other great warriors to be the strongest champion in the land.
the event was held by the god of battle and the reward for wining was amazing.

[BigPixie]

I was thinking about every round Frenzying, you take damage equal to the level given here:

level 3-7 1d4 level 8-13 1d6 level 14-17 1d8 level 18-20 1d10

Makes it less brutal then exaustion but still puts skin in the game for Frenzying constantly.

[HappyDaze]

I was thinking about every round Frenzying, you take damage equal to the level given here:

level 3-7 1d4 level 8-13 1d6 level 14-17 1d8 level 18-20 1d10

Makes it less brutal then exaustion but still puts skin in the game for Frenzying constantly.

That could be a hidden benefit in preventing the rage from ending prematurely.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't really care for tracking another resource. I'd rather seen them tied to an existing resource. Hit dice would be thematic, though I've seen people get annoyed by the suggestion of spending hit dice as a resource for other features. hmm, so you suggest tracking a different resource? :smallbiggrin:

Your feat idea is an interesting one, but that isn't the angle I was aiming for with this topic

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd personally either drop the bonus action attack and switch it to something else, or if it doesn't affect it so much, add a boon to it independent of the bonus attack.

Personally, what with the Barbarian having such a massive bonus to damage from critical hits but arguably no reliable way to trigger them, I feel the Path of the Berserker would be served better by making the primary benefit of Frenzy be like that of Improved Critical, but only on a Rage: while the Barbarian enters a Rage, its melee attacks trigger a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20. Coupled with Reckless Attack (which they'll use a lot anyways), that means the Barbarian has a very solid chance to trigger a critical hit, hence taking a lot more advantage from Brutal Critical. The damage boost scales up as Brutal Critical scales up, and since it applies to all melee attacks, it allows the Barbarian to go with either Sword & Board, fighting with two one-handed weapons or with a two-handed weapon and still have a decent damage capacity.

Exhaustion is an issue, but it can be dealt with; if you limit Frenzy to simply improve your critical hits, you could minimize or drop exhaustion altogether. However, if you couple the bonus action attack with the increased critical hit chance, you could keep exhaustion, since it's a massive boost to damage at the expense of becoming exhausted afterwards, making further uses of Rage a risky situation. After all, while there's many ways to gain a bonus attack outside of Frenzy, this one allows you to use your main weapon to your full extent (i.e., use a Greataxe, or Greatsword with its damage dice, instead of a 1d4, while applying your full Strength modifier to damage, unlike the nonexistent modifier when fighting with a second weapon), but without risking becoming exhausted afterwards, which eventually hinders your attacks by imposing disadvantage (and if you abuse Rage, on a long-term basis). Dropping or modifying exhaustion seems like a good start, but the main benefit is only as moderately strong as you can take advantage of it; however, with an additional attack spending your bonus action in addition to the increased critical hit chance, you have a very real chance of landing at least one critical hit per attack, which is far more damage on the long run than what a Zealot can do, making a full level of exhaustion a very real counterweight.

Besides: the pretense of having the Fighter be the only one with increased critical hit chance has been dropped already. (Both the Hexblade Warlock and the Conquest Paladin have such options, even if the latter only gains it as its capstone.) Might as well give it to a class whose main purpose is to exploit critical hits, particularly if multiclassing isn't an option.

[Expected]

I'd just tie the BA to Reckless Attack: "when you use Reckless Attack, you can make an additional attack as a bonus action."

Right from the flavor text:

It also fits thematically. I like it.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, why should the bonus action attack cost anything at all, or require anything outside of using Rage? Lets take a look at the 3rd level abilities of each Barbarian Subclass:

Zealot: You add 1d6+half your Barbarian level to the first creature you hit on each of your turns while raging, and spells like Raise Dead don't cost any material components. The first ability is always on when you Rage, the second ability is always on period, and they don't cost any resources to use

Ancestral Guardian: The first creature you hit with an attack on your turn has disadvantage on all attack roles made against anyone other than you, and the creature being targeted has resistance to the damage while you rage. again, this doesn't cost any resources outside of using Rage

Battlerage: When you're wearing Spiked Armor you can make a bonus action attack that deals 1d4+Str mod, and if you grapple someone they take 3 piercing damage. This is literally a bonus action attack like the Beserker, and all it costs is a Rage use...and the price of spiked armor.

Storm Herald: You gain your choice of three 10ft auras, which you can active as a bonus action on every turn, and you can change out the chosen environment every time you take a barbarian level. Once again, this costs nothing to activate or use, outside of having to use Rage

Totem Spirit: You get your choice of one out of five different ability sets, ranging from resistance to everything but Psychic damage to effectively giving your allies pack tactics against any enemy within 5 feet of you. And again, this costs nothing to use except a Rage

Beserker: You get to make one bonus action attack at the cost of one level of exhaustion.


Do you notice a small trend? Every single Rage boost outside of the Beserker's Bonus Action Attack doesn't cost anything or apply any penalties. They're all passive boosts that you just get to have at no cost. So why should the Beserker have a limited number of bonus action attacks per short/long rest? Why should they have to attack recklessly? A single bonus Action attack isn't that strong. If it were, then Dual Wielding would be considered a far better choice then it currently is.

EDIT: Looking closer, I'd say the abilities above are stronger then having a Bonus Action attack. I'd much rather be resistant to every single damage type except psychic...which can be fixed with the right magic item. Ancestral Guardian is one of the best tank abilities in the game since it forces your target to fight you. Battlerager is basically the Beserker ability, only capped at 1d4 and you have to wear armor. And Storm Herald lets you choose between Temp HP, 2 unavoidable Fire damage, or 1d6 lightning damage to someone within your aura of your choice every round.

[Kane0]

Remove exhaustion, replace with Reckless Attack always being active while Frenzying (including any reaction attacks you might make while Frenzy Raging).

[KorvinStarmast]

Remove exhaustion, replace with Reckless Attack always being active while Frenzying (including any reaction attacks you might make while Frenzy Raging).
Hmm, risk reward approach. I like this, and it's thematic.

[Damon_Tor]

hmm, so you suggest tracking a different resource? :smallbiggrin:

Your feat idea is an interesting one, but that isn't the angle I was aiming for with this topic

It's a resource we track anyway.

[Tanarii]

First Frenzy is free. After that, exhaustion level for each one.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, again, why does the Frenzy ability have to use a resource in the first place? A bonus action attack isn't exactly game breaking, especially on a Barbarian. Not when you look at the rest of the Barbarian subclasses, which get abilities that are equal to or better than that without spending extra resources.

Edit: I'd suggest just removing the exhaustion levels, and allowing them to make a Bonus Action attack as long as they have Rage up. Considering it is relatively easy to get a BA attack, either through a feat, dual wielding, or multiclassing, it isn't that big of a thing.

[Zhorn]

Considering it is relatively easy to get a BA attack, either through a feat, dual wielding, or multiclassing, it isn't that big of a thing.
The tricky part of that comparison is how powerful and reliable the Bonus Action attack is compared to the others.
TWF requires the Attack Action to use, does not include the damage modifier without the Fighting Style investment, and is somewhat limited in damage dice size (1d4 or 1d6 without the associated feat, 1d8 with the feat).
GWM is a feat cost, requires a critical hit to utilise, and as such is also Attack Action dependant.
PAM is also a feat cost, is dependant on the Attack Action to utilize, and is limited to 1d4 damage dice.
By comparison, Frenzy's Bonus Action attack;
is available while Rage remains active, which is a strong enough feature to want to use even without using Frenzy.
has the modifier added to damage at baseline
is not restricted in damage dice size beyond what the weapon being used would offer for any other attack made by the Barbarian
is not dependant on using the Attack Action on the same turn, allowing for a more versatile use of the action economy
with raw number of attacks effectively puts the Berserker Barbarian at level 3 on the same power level as a level 5 Fighter, and at level 5 on the same power level as a level 11 Fighter.
and has no need of a feat cost nor is it multiclass dependant to reach this baseline level of power.
It's strong enough to justify some form of drawback, just the regular exhaustion rules are a touch too severe (but only by a little).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I think you just need to change the penalty.

Maybe a - 1 maxhp per 2 levels after the frenzy.
So a level 5 barbarian after frenzy will have -2 hp after the first one and -4 hp after the second one.

I think reset by short rest is fine but there could be an argument for it being reset by long rest.

[Contrast]

It's strong enough to justify some form of drawback, just the regular exhaustion rules are a touch too severe (but only by a little).

It's also worth noting that the Beserker gets amoung the best 6th and 14th level features as well.

[stoutstien]

The tricky part of that comparison is how powerful and reliable the Bonus Action attack is compared to the others.
TWF requires the Attack Action to use, does not include the damage modifier without the Fighting Style investment, and is somewhat limited in damage dice size (1d4 or 1d6 without the associated feat, 1d8 with the feat).
GWM is a feat cost, requires a critical hit to utilise, and as such is also Attack Action dependant.
PAM is also a feat cost, is dependant on the Attack Action to utilize, and is limited to 1d4 damage dice.
By comparison, Frenzy's Bonus Action attack;
is available while Rage remains active, which is a strong enough feature to want to use even without using Frenzy.
has the modifier added to damage at baseline
is not restricted in damage dice size beyond what the weapon being used would offer for any other attack made by the Barbarian
is not dependant on using the Attack Action on the same turn, allowing for a more versatile use of the action economy
with raw number of attacks effectively puts the Berserker Barbarian at level 3 on the same power level as a level 5 Fighter, and at level 5 on the same power level as a level 11 Fighter.
and has no need of a feat cost nor is it multiclass dependant to reach this baseline level of power.
It's strong enough to justify some form of drawback, just the regular exhaustion rules are a touch too severe (but only by a little).

The problem is that the frenzy bonus action attack has diminishing returns when stacked on the stronger strength melee feats so while In a featless game the non exhaustion frenzy may have a leg up the second you add one on those feats that gap shrinks. The Barbarian bonus action attack is still limited by being in rage where the level 5 fighter can do two attacks all day any day plus still have their bonus action available.
The bonus action attack probably needs to be tied to attack somehow to keep from dodge/ba attacking and the above suggestion of only being active when you reckless attack is a really good idea.

[stoutstien]

It's also worth noting that the Beserker gets amoung the best 6th and 14th level features as well.

Eh. They are ok but not amazing. Charms and fear are pretty easy to counter and the reaction attack on has a 5ft reach which has a heap of problems that will come up. Compared to Zealot reroll save once per rage and stay fighting past death I can't say berserker comes out ahead.

[Catullus64]

I personally don't mind the concept of the frenzy inducing exhaustion, even if the 1-level guaranteed per frenzy is a bit too steep. While I think the best fix is to simply rework exhaustion altogether, such as removing 1 level per short rest, the following fix could also help.

How about this: when you come out of a Frenzy, you take the exhaustion level only if you fail a Constitution Saving Throw with a DC = 10+ the number of Bonus Action attacks you made using the feature. At lower levels, when the Bonus Action attack is strongest, that's still a noticeable save DC; at higher levels, when it's not as strong, the Save DC becomes more trivial, with the potential for exhaustion still extant with severe bad luck or a very long fight.

It adds a little more bookkeeping, which is a drawback. However, I like how it contains a little built-in RP; when you go into your unstoppable blood fury, you're incentivized to be aggressive and end the fight as quickly as possible, since that will mean a lower DC.

[Zhorn]

Constitution Saving Throw with a DC = 10+ the number of Bonus Action attacks you made using the feature...you're incentivized to be aggressive and end the fight as quickly as possible, since that will mean a lower DC.
... I like this, though with proficiency in con saves and a pre-existing incentive to pump that con modifier as high as possible for unarmored defense and tanking potential, starting at 10 might be a bit low. With most combats over in 4 rounds, it will be a very rare event to fail that save.

[Contrast]

Eh. They are ok but not amazing. Charms and fear are pretty easy to counter and the reaction attack on has a 5ft reach which has a heap of problems that will come up. Compared to Zealot reroll save once per rage and stay fighting past death I can't say berserker comes out ahead.

I mean there are ways to counter charm and fear effects but the problem is most of them take actions/spell slots at which point you've probably wasted the turns of several PCs in the middle of combat which is a Bad ThingTM.

I'm inclined to agree zealot barbarian is best barbarian. But if we try to balance everything against best we're going to power creep pretty hard which we should be trying to avoid. My point was that beserkers have two good features and two questionable features. We don't have to make their level 3 feature amazing to make it acceptable (I don't give it a lot of weight because it seems unlikely I'm ever going to play in one but the issue is always raised that they actually are pretty powerful in featless games because BA attacks are much more limited without access to feats).

[stoutstien]

I mean there are ways to counter charm and fear effects but the problem is most of them take actions/spell slots at which point you've probably wasted the turns of several PCs in the middle of combat which is a Bad ThingTM.

I'm inclined to agree zealot barbarian is best barbarian. But if we try to balance everything against best we're going to power creep pretty hard which we should be trying to avoid. My point was that beserkers have two good features and two questionable features. We don't have to make their level 3 feature amazing to make it acceptable (I don't give it a lot of weight because it seems unlikely I'm ever going to play in one but the issue is always raised that they actually are pretty powerful in featless games because BA attacks are much more limited without access to feats).

The BZ counter fear/charm cost rage which can be huge. Unless your table only runs 1-2 encounters a adventuring day rages are something to worry about.
I agree Zealot might be a bad comparison it was just the one freshest I my mind. We could use storm herald which I'd the other one that could use a boost.
I don't see a problem with BZ having the niche of best barbarian in a featless game, At least they would have something.

[jas61292]

(I don't give it a lot of weight because it seems unlikely I'm ever going to play in one but the issue is always raised that they actually are pretty powerful in featless games because BA attacks are much more limited without access to feats).

As someone who has both played a Berserker and is currently playing alongside a Berserker in games that, while not completely featless, doesn't allow any of the combat feats that grant bonus attacks, I can say for certain that yes, Berserker is really freaking good when everyone and their mother doesn't have access to bonus action attacks.

Most "fixes" I have seen for the Berserker tend to completely ignore featless games, making changes that take an already great subclass and make it even better. They also tend to ignore the higher level features, which are also quite strong. Personally, I consider the level 6 ability to be one of, if not the single best of any barbarian. Same with the final ability. And while the level 10 ability may not be earthshattering, Mindless Rage allow Berserkers to dump Wisdom in favor of Charisma without that much fear.

Speaking of the level 10 ability, Intimidating Presence existing is a huge reason not to "fix" the Berserker by making its bonus action attack a more normal one tied to the attack action. As it is now, a frenzying Berserker can lock down an enemy with Intimidating Presence as it's action, while still always attacking with its bonus action. Tying the bonus action to its attack kills this, along with dozens of other possible action combos that are what allow the Berserker to be really unique, even in games with feats.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Berserker is not all that bad and doesn't need a fix, but if it does get one, it should be too reduce how much the exhaustion hurts it, not to change fundamental aspects of how frenzy works, as frenzy's current power is what makes the class worth it in the first place.

[Tanarii]

(I don't give it a lot of weight because it seems unlikely I'm ever going to play in one but the issue is always raised that they actually are pretty powerful in featless games because BA attacks are much more limited without access to feats).They are the least played PC archetype in my single class no feat campaign. And the vast majority of my players don't get their opinions online.

OTOH the majority of henchmen available IMC are Berserker Barbarians, Champion Warriors, Hunter Rangers and Thief Rogues, with a smattering of Evoker wizards and
Life clerics. Unsurprisingly those aren't common as PCs, unless a PC dies and a henchman becomes a main.

[Damon_Tor]

How about this: when you come out of a Frenzy, you take the exhaustion level only if you fail a Constitution Saving Throw with a DC = 10+ the number of Bonus Action attacks you made using the feature.

That... that's great, actually.

[stoutstien]

As someone who has both played a Berserker and is currently playing alongside a Berserker in games that, while not completely featless, doesn't allow any of the combat feats that grant bonus attacks, I can say for certain that yes, Berserker is really freaking good when everyone and their mother doesn't have access to bonus action attacks.

Most "fixes" I have seen for the Berserker tend to completely ignore featless games, making changes that take an already great subclass and make it even better. They also tend to ignore the higher level features, which are also quite strong. Personally, I consider the level 6 ability to be one of, if not the single best of any barbarian. Same with the final ability. And while the level 10 ability may not be earthshattering, Mindless Rage allow Berserkers to dump Wisdom in favor of Charisma without that much fear.

Speaking of the level 10 ability, Intimidating Presence existing is a huge reason not to "fix" the Berserker by making its bonus action attack a more normal one tied to the attack action. As it is now, a frenzying Berserker can lock down an enemy with Intimidating Presence as it's action, while still always attacking with its bonus action. Tying the bonus action to its attack kills this, along with dozens of other possible action combos that are what allow the Berserker to be really unique, even in games with feats.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Berserker is not all that bad and doesn't need a fix, but if it does get one, it should be too reduce how much the exhaustion hurts it, not to change fundamental aspects of how frenzy works, as frenzy's current power is what makes the class worth it in the first place.

Mindless rage Only helps with about half of wisdom saves and this feature only works if the spell wouldn't prevent you from raging in the first place.
Just about every feature of the BZ subclass is this way, looks good on paper but falls flat I actual play.

Then we have the lv 10 feature that which is a worse menacing strike in every way. Even if we put some stats into Cha Barbarians are already one of the most MAD classes so the save is probably going to be low on top of half the game is immune to fear already. What more? It takes an action to keep it going. I guess it something to do when you aren't raging, give one guy a dirty look.

Then retaliation. Good luck getting this to proc more than half the time seeing it has a fixed range of 5ft. Unless you never fight anything larger than large, or ranged attacks, or Does something to you that does cause damage, or Attacks someone else, ..

This is not just theoretical the very first game I ran was a featless game o ran had a BZ in it and without a doubt they were more dissatisfied, as was I, than anyone else by a long shot.

Heck even the BM ranger fared better.

[jas61292]

Mindless rage Only helps with about half of wisdom saves and this feature only works if the spell wouldn't prevent you from raging in the first place.
Just about every feature of the BZ subclass is this way, looks good on paper but falls flat I actual play.

Then we have the lv 10 feature that which is a worse menacing strike in every way. Even if we put some stats into Cha Barbarians are already one of the most MAD classes so the save is probably going to be low on top of half the game is immune to fear already. What more? It takes an action to keep it going. I guess it something to do when you aren't raging, give one guy a dirty look.

Then retaliation. Good luck getting this to proc more than half the time seeing it has a fixed range of 5ft. Unless you never fight anything larger than large, or ranged attacks, or Does something to you that does cause damage, or Attacks someone else, ..

This is not just theoretical the very first game I ran was a featless game o ran had a BZ in it and without a doubt they were more dissatisfied, as was I, than anyone else by a long shot.

Heck even the BM ranger fared better.

My experiences were clearly very different than yours. To me Mindless Rage completely negated the need for good Wis. Sure, it woulds still be nice to have, but every stat is nice to have. When I played one, I dumped both Wis and Int, and, while the character did eventually die, it was the oft dumped Int that did him in. Wisdom was never a concern. The majority of scary in-battle Wis saves I've come across involve Charm or Fear, and most of those that happen can still be raged though even after affected.

As far as the other stuff, I personally strongly disagree on Barbarian, and especially Berserker, being particularly MAD. Strength is your primary, and nothing else really matters too much. Con is nice, but you have the game's biggest hit dice, Con save proficiency, and often have resistance to the most common damage types. Dex is also nice, but you get advantage on many, if not most, Dex saves and a barbarian is likely to be giving opponents advantage on most attacks anyways. Wisdom, as I already stated, is something I believe to be horribly overrated and no less of a dump stat for a Berserker than Int. All in all, everything but strength is nice, but not that important. Frankly, if you wanted to, you could make Charisma your secon best stat and not be all that worse off because of it.

Now as far as retaliate, no it is not always going to proc every round. But it will very often and it is very powerful. And any time you'd get an opportunity attack anyways, (such as when a big creature moves away to not provoke retaliation?) it doesn't matter.

I'm not going to try to deny your experiences with the classes, but as I said, I have played both as and alongside berserkers, and they were both very powerful, and never felt underpowered or disappointing.

[stoutstien]

My experiences were clearly very different than yours. To me Mindless Rage completely negated the need for good Wis. Sure, it woulds still be nice to have, but every stat is nice to have. When I played one, I dumped both Wis and Int, and, while the character did eventually die, it was the oft dumped Int that did him in. Wisdom was never a concern. The majority of scary in-battle Wis saves I've come across involve Charm or Fear, and most of those that happen can still be raged though even after affected.

As far as the other stuff, I personally strongly disagree on Barbarian, and especially Berserker, being particularly MAD. Strength is your primary, and nothing else really matters too much. Con is nice, but you have the game's biggest hit dice, Con save proficiency, and often have resistance to the most common damage types. Dex is also nice, but you get advantage on many, if not most, Dex saves and a barbarian is likely to be giving opponents advantage on most attacks anyways. Wisdom, as I already stated, is something I believe to be horribly overrated and no less of a dump stat for a Berserker than Int. All in all, everything but strength is nice, but not that important. Frankly, if you wanted to, you could make Charisma your secon best stat and not be all that worse off because of it.

Now as far as retaliate, no it is not always going to proc every round. But it will very often and it is very powerful. And any time you'd get an opportunity attack anyways, (such as when a big creature moves away to not provoke retaliation?) it doesn't matter.

I'm not going to try to deny your experiences with the classes, but as I said, I have played both as and alongside berserkers, and they were both very powerful, and never felt underpowered or disappointing.

From lv 14-20 and 453 rounds of combat retaliation proc rate was 23%. Almost the same as the rate of AOO.

If a table is never going to see serious caster threats or run less than 2-3 encounters a day i can see the allure of BZ. Outside of that I think it is deserving of the title of worse barbarian subclass.

[JDCGW]

Another issue with frenzy is that it uses a bonus action in the first place, which overlaps (mostly) with two-weapon fighting. Why can't we have a dual wielding, frenzied barbarian?

Anyway, this is how I would reword frenzy:

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Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one melee weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.
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[Theodoxus]

Yeah, I never understood why Frenzy was a bonus action. I'm not sure making it an Action with minimal consequence would justify it though... that's definitely treading all over fighter sub 20th level.

Either keep it as is, but remove the Exhaustion penalty, or Keep it as is and make the Bonus Action an Attack Action. (Simplified English, I know Attack Action isn't a defined term in 5E.)

You know, even before the expanded books like SCAG and XGtE, there was a lot of contention around the development of the Berserker. I speculated that maybe Barbarian was one of the first classes built and tested, and then when later classes came along, like the Hunter Ranger, no one went back to revisit the ol' Zerker to see if it held up. This contention holds more weight as later Paths came out that blows the Zerker out of the water with free stuff. Like, if when a Zealot got raised from the dead, they got a couple of levels of exhaustion? That'd be balanced. Or let the Ancestral Guardian gain exhaustion when they took damage from another party member... sure... Exhaustion is really only a Barbarian mechanic and a few select spells... it should have been a mechanic for all the Paths... or none. and I vote none. :smallbiggrin:

[Yakk]

1. When you reckless attack, you can trade one attack for two without advantage.

2. If you are reduced to 0 HP or have your rage end involuntariallly while raging, you can enter a frenzy. You do not fall unconcious, do not end the rage, and gain 5 times your barbarian level in temporary HP that last until the rage ends. When the rage ends you gain a level of exhastion.

3. You recover a level of exhastion from a short rest.

[Grognerd]

I mean, again, why does the Frenzy ability have to use a resource in the first place? A bonus action attack isn't exactly game breaking, especially on a Barbarian. Not when you look at the rest of the Barbarian subclasses, which get abilities that are equal to or better than that without spending extra resources.

Edit: I'd suggest just removing the exhaustion levels, and allowing them to make a Bonus Action attack as long as they have Rage up. Considering it is relatively easy to get a BA attack, either through a feat, dual wielding, or multiclassing, it isn't that big of a thing.

I agree on all points. Frenzy should just offer a bonus action attack when Raging. The Rage itself is a limited enough resource to keep it contained.