CoS 3 man team

[Master O'Laughs]

So my party and I are in Barovia and we lost a player due to life stuff so there is now just 3 of us. We are level 7

A Tortle light Cleric
A Hill Dwarf gunslinger Fighter (given a special magic item to 1/day make a weapon magic for the purposes of overcoming resistances)
Me a Vuman shadow Sorcerer.

I was originally a warlock but due to now only being 3 players the DM let us readjust things to hopefully better round out the party. After a lot of 1 fight per day situations, I thought more spells would be useful and I honestly wanted to give sorcerer a twirl.

Question is spell choice. Currently this is what I have tentatively chosen:

Cantrips - Firebolt, Acid Splash, Message, Minor Illusion, (need 1 more)
Lvl 1 - Mage Armor, Catapult (possibly? may be worthless now)
Lvl 2 - Suggestion, Levitate, (possibly Blindness/Deafness?)
Lvl 3 - Haste, Hypnotic Pattern
Lvl 4 - Polymorph

I have a total of 8 spells known, any suggestions or tweaks to the list? I am thinking of focusing on buffing and de-buffing. I am curious if Haste is even worth it at this point with only 1 weapon user.

Metamagic: Subtle, Twin

I chose the Alert feat to hopefully get off a hypnotic pattern or polymorph as the situation calls for. at level 4 I chose CHA ASI to get to 20 CHA. Another question would be what feat to choose at lvl 8?

Opinions appreciated.

[jaappleton]

Hmm....

First, good call in swapping to Sorc. The ability to twin Haste or Poly on to the other players will greatly help you in many battles.

I'd toss Catapult, and add Slow.

As someone about to complete CoS, Slow has saved our bacon quite a few times.

[Master O'Laughs]

Hmm....

First, good call in swapping to Sorc. The ability to twin Haste or Poly on to the other players will greatly help you in many battles.

I'd toss Catapult, and add Slow.

As someone about to complete CoS, Slow has saved our bacon quite a few times.

Okay so if I drop catapult (if not CoS I would keep it for shenanigans) The idea is my other 3 L1 slots are to fuel metamagic then?

At level 8, I am thinking Dimension Door for GTFO situations. Is picking up Sickening Radiance, Storm Sphere, Vitriolic Sphere, or Ice Storm be worth it?

Is the idea with slow for if I cannot go first (and risk friendly fire) or baddies can't be charmed to use slow instead of hypnotic pattern?

What would be the decision matrix for when buffing vs debuffing is more effective?

[Talsin]

As I am currently playing through CoS as a Celestial Tomelock, I can see the attraction of Sorcerer. But I think staying a warlock would have been fine with that composition.

With a Light Cleric, focusing on support is a good idea - although consecutive fireballs can certainly end a lot of encounters.

Instead of Catapult, I would suggest Chromatic Orb just for the damage type variability, or Magic Missile for Force Damage and certainty of hit - including the concentration check(or checks if your DM runs that way). Instead of levitate, I would suggest Invisibility - I think it has better utility and buffing capability over the single-target removal that levitate may offer in addition to utility.

I will strongly suggest D.Door when you get the opportunity - Quick escapes have seemed rather valuable to my 5-person group, though perhaps that's our DM being tough on us.

[Seekergeek]

In a spoiler-free way, I'm curious which items you've found from the module as that could impact your questions about the worth of certain spells.

[micahaphone]

For your final cantrip, control flames would be very thematic to shadow sorc.

Haste isn't super amazing for cleric or sorc (unless you're going gish), so twinning haste isn't the shoe-in it'd normally be. I'm sure your gunslinger would like it though.

You could take another debuff spell for enemies that are immune to charm (lots of undead or big baddies DGAF about charm/fear)

[Master O'Laughs]

Things of note we found in Barovia:

Sunblade - Gunslinger was using it as his melee option due to non-magic piercing being heavily resisted. Not sure how often he may use it now though.

The tome about Strahd's history (which was subsequently stolen and delivered to strahd).

The druid found some staff under a cairn at the hill with the Strahd statue which proceeded to put him under a geas of sorts and he ran off to hunt Strahd (this could have been the DM's way of having him leave the party with the option of him returning later if life circumstances change)

We found the magic stone for the Wizards of Wine in the strahd statue... but the gunslinger broke it by hacking away with the sunblade...

I think that is it. We have not really found much in the way of magic items, mainly the sunblade.

As far as spells, Jappleton convinced me to pick up slow.

At level 8 I definitely plan on picking up Dimension Door.

Currently planing on dropping catapult in favor of using those 3 spell slots to churn out another Hound of Ill Omen.

Levitate was picked as it could be used both as control (in combat) or utility (go up a wall to attach a grappling hook).

Current List is looking like:

L1: Mage Armor
L2: Blind/Deaf, Levitate, Suggestion
L3: Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow
L4: Polymorph

I would love to fit enlarge/reduce in there for opening locked doors and other utility since we do not have a rogue, but already feel very strapped for spells and fear its usefulness as a buff would not be great in this party comp.

[Expected]

Okay so if I drop catapult (if not CoS I would keep it for shenanigans) The idea is my other 3 L1 slots are to fuel metamagic then?

At level 8, I am thinking Dimension Door for GTFO situations. Is picking up Sickening Radiance, Storm Sphere, Vitriolic Sphere, or Ice Storm be worth it?

Is the idea with slow for if I cannot go first (and risk friendly fire) or baddies can't be charmed to use slow instead of hypnotic pattern?

What would be the decision matrix for when buffing vs debuffing is more effective?

Are you able to and willing to multiclass into Hexblade Warlock for three levels for Eldritch Blast, SR spell slots, Eldritch Invocations (Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight), medium armor and shield proficiency, Hexblade's Curse, Hex, and a Pact feature (Pact of the Tome would be useful since you don't have a Wizard for arcane rituals)? For Metamagic, I would take Quickened, Subtle, and Twinned. Eldritch Blast + Quickened Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray, Subtle Counterspell/Dispel Magic, and Twinned Haste/Polymorph/Fly are amazing combos. Level 1 slots are useful for Absorb Elements and Shield, even at higher levels, and it allows you to make use of the x1 reaction/turn. Sorcerer has few spells known (Hexblade Warlock multiclass helps a little for Shield and more cantrips), but I would prioritize Absorb Elements, Shield, Haste, and then choose other spells according to the role you are desiring--in your case, Careful Spell and Web/Hypnotic Pattern/Slow should be considered as it seems you want to be a controller.

Dimension Door will be useful for those moments, but you can only take one ally with you, of the same or smaller size, so make sure the remaining party member has means for escape. Sickening Radiance is very powerful, especially when upcasted, but it takes your concentration and is better used by Evocation Wizards who can Overchannel it for maximum DPR. The other three spells are not as useful, in my opinion.

Yes, the idea to use Slow in instances where you can't go first is a good idea. As I mentioned earlier in this post, Careful Spell will help mitigate friendly fire if you ever find yourself unable to avoid it.

I cannot provide a decision matrix for buffing/debuffing, but a general rule of thumb should be to minimize opportunity cost. Ask yourself, is Twin Haste on my party better than slowing/disabling a number of enemies? I would say it depends on the situation.

[Master O'Laughs]

Another thing for those offering insight/advice. The DM says he foresees us being at most level 11 by end of the campaign. He is using milestone xp and boosted us a level because there are only 3 of us.

I am sure if it is painfully stacked against us, he would possibly increase the level cap to 12 but I do not count on it happening.

[Grey Watcher]

... (Pact of the Tome would be useful since you don't have a Wizard for arcane rituals)? ...

Just a reminder that in order to use rituals from your Tome, you have to spend an Invocation. By default it just gives you a two(?) extra cantrips.

[Keravath]

If you are rebuilding at level 7 and started off as warlock, you might want to consider level 5 shadow sorcerer/ level 2 hexblade warlock if multiclassing is allowed.

Take agonizing blast and one other invocation (personally I like devils sight for perfect vision to 120' under all lighting conditions - no disadvantage to perception checks in darkness with darkvision.

Advantages: Medium armor and shield so your AC is much higher, agonizing blast for at will single target damage, hexblade's curse is a minor boost once a short rest. Two first level short rest spell slots for either additional sorcery points or casting other spells, 3 additional spells known - hex, shield and one more - plus having armor and shield frees up the mage armor slot you have to take as a sorcerer. This effectively boosts your spells known by a couple and gives you the shield spell and the spell slots to use it which can come in very handy. You can also do things like quicken eldritch blast though you might find it better to quicken a spell like slow and then blast a target with agonizing blast.

What do you give up? One 3rd and one 4th level spell slot, polymorph and one sorcerer spell known of 3rd level or less.

You also delay your spell progression. On the other hand, the benefits are quite useful, increase your single target at will damage, personal survivability and spells known.

P.S. Acid splash isn't the greatest cantrip, with undead and vampires I would be tempted by chill touch since it prevents them from regenerating even in the cases where damage might be resisted or immune.

[Master O'Laughs]

If you are rebuilding at level 7 and started off as warlock, you might want to consider level 5 shadow sorcerer/ level 2 hexblade warlock if multiclassing is allowed.

Take agonizing blast and one other invocation (personally I like devils sight for perfect vision to 120' under all lighting conditions - no disadvantage to perception checks in darkness with darkvision.

Advantages: Medium armor and shield so your AC is much higher, agonizing blast for at will single target damage, hexblade's curse is a minor boost once a short rest. Two first level short rest spell slots for either additional sorcery points or casting other spells, 3 additional spells known - hex, shield and one more - plus having armor and shield frees up the mage armor slot you have to take as a sorcerer. This effectively boosts your spells known by a couple and gives you the shield spell and the spell slots to use it which can come in very handy. You can also do things like quicken eldritch blast though you might find it better to quicken a spell like slow and then blast a target with agonizing blast.

What do you give up? One 3rd and one 4th level spell slot, polymorph and one sorcerer spell known of 3rd level or less.

You also delay your spell progression. On the other hand, the benefits are quite useful, increase your single target at will damage, personal survivability and spells known.

P.S. Acid splash isn't the greatest cantrip, with undead and vampires I would be tempted by chill touch since it prevents them from regenerating even in the cases where damage might be resisted or immune.

I was thinking straight sorcerer, no multi-classing. Acid splash was honestly chosen for the ability to possibly target 2 dudes and being a ST instead of attack roll. Looking at Chill Touch though, that will be useful.

[Biggstick]

At level 8 I definitely plan on picking up Dimension Door.

Currently planing on dropping catapult in favor of using those 3 spell slots to churn out another Hound of Ill Omen.

Levitate was picked as it could be used both as control (in combat) or utility (go up a wall to attach a grappling hook).

Current List is looking like:

L1: Mage Armor
L2: Blind/Deaf, Levitate, Suggestion
L3: Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow
L4: Polymorph

I would love to fit enlarge/reduce in there for opening locked doors and other utility since we do not have a rogue, but already feel very strapped for spells and fear its usefulness as a buff would not be great in this party comp.

Blind/Deaf: Con save Non-Concentration
Levitate: Con save (if used on enemy) Concentration
Suggestion: Wis save (enemies immune to charm are immune to this spell) Concentration
Haste: Concentration
Hypnotic Pattern: Wis save (enemies immune to charm are immune to this spell) Concentration
Slow: Wis save (party friendly) Concentration
Polymorph: Wis save (if used on enemy) Concentration

I'm seeing a ton of spells that require concentration and require Wis saves. Additionally, you need a greater spread in stats targeted with saving throws. You also don't have any ability to get out of trouble without breaking concentration on a spell you currently have active.

I'd lose Levitate, Haste, and Hypnotic Pattern. In their place I'd pick up Shield, Misty Step, and Watery Sphere. This does a few things for you. Levitate is a concentration spell whose effects can be quite effectively simulated through use of Misty Step. Picking up Misty Step also gives us Bonus Action economy that we previously lacked in a spell slot we might not be primarily using. Trading out Haste for Shield is another easy choice, as you don't have anyone you necessarily need to worry about providing a Twinned Haste buff to. Picking up the Shield spell not only gives you a little more protection in a small party, it gives you Reaction economy you were previously lacking. Lastly is the dropping of Hypnotic Pattern for Watery Sphere. You already have 4 spells that target Wisdom, two of which are useless against creatures immune to charm. The spells Slow and Hypnotic Pattern fill similar roles, with Slow being a spell that works on creatures immune to charm and being party friendly (meaning you can cast it on top of yourself and your party to bail yourselves out of an ambush). Picking up Watery Sphere gives us a higher level control spell that is concentration based and targets Strength, thus expanding the list of stats we're able to target.

With these changes to your spell choices, you're expanding your action economy while reducing the spell spill-over.

I saw somewhere else that you were considering Dimension Door as a spell. I'd suggest instead picking up Counterspell, another low level utility spell (like Enlarge), or Fly. Polymorph can very much so serve the function of moving vast distances quickly, while being able to move party members (a Giant Eagle can easily pick up most party members, understands Common, and is stats-wise strong enough to still be quite playable). Misty Step also allows us to fill the role of moving across distance that we can't jump across.


I was thinking straight sorcerer, no multi-classing. Acid splash was honestly chosen for the ability to possibly target 2 dudes and being a ST instead of attack roll. Looking at Chill Touch though, that will be useful.

In regard to cantrips, I'd get rid of Acid Splash and pick up Chill Touch. Additionally, I'd grab Mold Earth as your 5th cantrip. The uses in CoS for that spell can be endless.

[Chugger]

I'd get rid of acid splash.

Some fights scream out Fireball - the only reason I wouldn't take fireball as a wiz or sorc is because I was playing Avernus (devils are fire-immune) - and I'd take lightning bolt instead. Not having big AoE could hurt you in some fights, though slow - as J A suggested above - is a really good spell, too. Twinned haste on your party does not scream out "WOW" to me - twinned haste on a rogue and a Pal is killer. Why? Cuz the pal can smite 3 times in a turn when he needs to nova, and the rogue can pull off two sneak attacks on a round (not on his turn, but on the round, yes - he uses one as a readied action which becomes a reaction).

[Master O'Laughs]

Great input thanks guys.

[Talsin]

Just to echo my previous statement...
My group wound up fighting Strahd last session in the woods where he charmed our rogue - the character who had just stabbed him with the Sunblade. Strahd subsequently requested turning the blade off, and then asked her to hand it to him. The rogue was going last in initiative (low roll), and I came up. I grabbed her, and dimension door'd 500 feet in a direction before she got her turn. We're going to see how this pans out next time, hopefully Strahd won't get his hands on the blade.
Short Story shorter; Dimension Door may have saved the campaign.

[Biggstick]

Just to echo my previous statement...
My group wound up fighting Strahd last session in the woods where he charmed our rogue - the character who had just stabbed him with the Sunblade. Strahd subsequently requested turning the blade off, and then asked her to hand it to him. The rogue was going last in initiative (low roll), and I came up. I grabbed her, and dimension door'd 500 feet in a direction before she got her turn. We're going to see how this pans out next time, hopefully Strahd won't get his hands on the blade.
Short Story shorter; Dimension Door may have saved the campaign.

Polymorph would have theoretically achieved the same effect.

By Polymorphing your Rogue, the Sunblade would have been absorbed into the Polymorphed creature. As such, the Rogue would be unable to give Strahd the Sunblade.

[Talsin]

Polymorph would have theoretically achieved the same effect.


True. Despite my character being stylized as a witch (Magical Girl) I have not taken Polymorph. I don't see it fitting her personality, although that has been changing lately. We've also got a druid who could take it, but we've also had campaign reasons not to use it.

We've been fighting a lot of werewolves and shape-shifting druids lately, so the spell doesn't work on them.

[Biggstick]

True. Despite my character being stylized as a witch (Magical Girl) I have not taken Polymorph. I don't see it fitting her personality, although that has been changing lately. We've also got a druid who could take it, but we've also had campaign reasons not to use it.

We've been fighting a lot of werewolves and shape-shifting druids lately, so the spell doesn't work on them.

Polymorph can serve the same function as Dimension Door does in the situation you described here as well. It's more about the utility of the spell (Polymorph) and it's uses overall, not just in the ability to move yourself and one other willing participant (Dimension Door).

While playing a Sorcerer, spell selection is so critical. Ensuring you don't have overlap between what your spells can do gives you the greatest range in application of spells. This is even more true based off of the metamagics chosen by the OP. Polymorph can be both Twinned and cast Sublte, where as Dimension Door can only be cast Subtle.