Frenzied Berserker Is Pure Bonkers

[Bartmanhomer]

I heard that this prestige class can attack anybody including teammates. It's a seek and kill prestige class. Is there any way to control this insane prestige class or no? :eek:

[Grey Guard]

It's a fun PrC. What you're looking for is Righteous Wrath, a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It does specify Rage, however, and your DM may rule it doesn't apply to Frenzy.

Note: You have to be Good.

[KillianHawkeye]

The standard methods are to either boost his Will save as high as you can (since you can make a Will save to stop frenzying), or to drop your Will save as low as possible and rely on one of your teammate's preparing a calm emotions or hold person spell or anything else that can neutralize your character once all the bad guys are taken care of.

[Tvtyrant]

Or get a Craft: Contingency Otiluke's Resilient Sphere that goes off when all none-party members are dead or you would attack a party member. Then they walk out of site until the Berzerker calms down.

[RedMage125]

I heard that this prestige class can attack anybody including teammates. It's a seek and kill prestige class. Is there any way to control this insane prestige class or no? :eek:

Yes, and I have run several games as a DM with one in the party, one of which ran to level 21 (Age of Worms).

Despite what some people claim when they are going off memory, you should look to the text. Frenzied Berserkers do not lose the ability to distinguish between friend and foe during frenzy. However, once all enemies are down, the FB must make a Will save on their turn or be forced to attack the "nearest creature to the best of their abilities". Arguably, that means they are seeing that one creature as an enemy. It's not spelled out in the text, but it's how I adjudicated it.

The L2 Cleric spell Calm Emotions ends rage (and frenzy works like rage). It is a Close range spell (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels). Buy a wand of this spell at caster level 3. That's 50 charges of use. Whenever combat ensues and it looks like the last enemy is going to go down, the cleric just needs to Ready an Action to use the wand on the FB as soon as the last foe drops. Or you could give the FB a chance to make the Will save and save a charge of the wand, and have him use it if the FB starts moving towards an ally. Since the FB can still determine friend from foe, he can choose to fail the Will save against Calm Emotions.

My ruling as a DM however, was that if, by some poor chance the cleric was the one being attacked, the FB cannot voluntarily fail his save vs Calm Emotions, because he perceives the cleric as an enemy. but like I said, that was my ruling.

Both times I DMed with a Frenzied Berserker in the party, they got a wand of Calm Emotions. Even for the people who think frenzy is not "negated" like rage is, it still prevents attacking. So the caster just has to maintain concentration on the calm spell for longer than the frenzy lasts (which, since combat is over, should not be a problem).

[SirNibbles]

Yes, and I have run several games as a DM with one in the party, one of which ran to level 21 (Age of Worms).

Despite what some people claim when they are going off memory, you should look to the text. Frenzied Berserkers do not lose the ability to distinguish between friend and foe during frenzy. However, once all enemies are down, the FB must make a Will save on their turn or be forced to attack the "nearest creature to the best of their abilities". Arguably, that means they are seeing that one creature as an enemy. It's not spelled out in the text, but it's how I adjudicated it.

Also of note: "While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats." - Complete Warrior, page 35

That means Sense Motive checks automatically fail vs Bluff, so you can convince the Berserker to do pretty much anything.

"A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe." - SRD - Bluff

[Buufreak]

A simple google check would have told you everything you could possibly want to know about the class, including the cheesy and simply mundane ways of stopping it.

[The Viscount]

A common argument is that you don't have to use the most effective means of attack against enemies. You can choose to make unarmed strikes against your allies to deal nonlethal, and while you may knock them out, it's easier to heal and heals faster.

Another way around this is making your weapon an intelligent item. Assuming you use something rigid like a sword, you cannot attack it with itself, so have to use unarmed strikes, assuming you don't have other weapons.

[Ramza00]

Will Save of 20. Get a Cleric / Archivist Friend.

Tyche Touch (2nd level) lasts 24 hours and gives +4 to Saves, then +3, then +2, then +1 and then it goes away. Sacred Bonus
Conviction (1st level) or Mass Conviction. Lasts 10 mins per level. +2 to +5 to Saves with +3 at Caster Level 6. Moral Bonus and thus does not stack with Rage for they are both Moral Bonuses.
Benediction (2nd level) Lasts 10 mins per level +2 Bonus to Saves and can Reroll but Reroll discharges it. Luck Bonus
Greater Resistance (4th level) Lasts 24 hours +3 Bonus to Saves, Resistance Bonus. Superior Resistance is +6 Bonus but 6th level.

So we are talking +4+3+2+3=+12 via spells that are reasonable amount and at caster level 12 it is +13 and if you can convince your Cleric Friend to give up a 6th level slot it is an additional +3 for a total of +16.

This is not counting you probably getting +2 from 6 Berserker levels. Not counting Wisdom bonus. Not counting Iron Will from Otuylgh Hole. It takes 2 feats but Endurance->Steadfast Determination gives you Con to Will Saves instead of Wis to Will Saves.

Likewise if you get Otuylgh Hole's Iron Will, Cumbrous Will is a follow up feat in savage species and choose to give an additional +6 to your Will Save (so with Iron Will + Cumbrous Will is +8 total) but to get this additional +6 you are shaken after making this will saving throw until the encounter ends. Then again you are probably done with the encounter when you try to break your frenzy.

-----

In Summary if you plan to optimize your saves to extreme amount via allies spells you can easily make a 20 WIll Save with a greater than 75% success rate, and you can try again the next round. It will require sacrificing some of your wealth by level getting your ally extra pearls of powers, wands for the tyche touche, etc but it is still a bargain.

[icefractal]

Due to the unusual auto-fail on Dex-based skill checks, Grease or simply some marbles will incapacitate a FB. Probably keep this one in your back pocket, as the class may become a bit useless if enemies start doing that.

Some FBs intentionally use up all their Frenzy in the morning, taking the class purely for the PA benefits.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As mentioned, Righteous Wrath works but if the GM is a stickler then as long as you're in both a rage and a frenzy at the same time you should be good.

That aside, just pump your will save. Both the rage and frenzy features give you an untyped +2 and steadfast determination lets you add con instead of wis. Prioritize con just a little more than normal, and you'll be fine. If you're really worried, trade your level 2 fighter bonus feat for the resolute feature. You're gonna want a solid will save by the back half of climbing to 20 anyway.

E.G; barbarian 4/ fighter 2/ FB 1 is the first level you'll need to make the save. So base +2, con +4 (min), rage and frenzy +4, cloak of resistance +1; makes +11. You're already making it more than half the time. Resolute can net you another +3 and reduces the odds you'll kill an ally in the same stroke and I was conservative with the con so between +15 and +17 isn't out of reason. Couple more levels and you'll only fail on a natural 1.

[Particle_Man]

Our party did it the risky way. I made a character that maxed out AC purely to tank the FB if it attacked the party.

In another less ethical party, one guy hated my character so much he took levels of FB. I just made sure my hexblade was never the closest to the FB and my movement rate was higher than other party members.

[Doctor Awkward]

Also of note: "While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats." - Complete Warrior, page 35

That means Sense Motive checks automatically fail vs Bluff, so you can convince the Berserker to do pretty much anything.

"A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe." - SRD - Bluff

What?

Sense Motive is a Wisdom check. Frenzied Berserker's are not forbidden from using those.

[vasilidor]

sense motive requires patients, most of the time. in the one game I played with a frenzied berserker we would all play dead. it worked.

[Efrate]

Bag of marbles. Cheap and easy. They will roll the save eventually.

[tiercel]

Gosh, most people are reacting like Frenzied Berserker is not totally a PrC for folks who not-so-secretly want to not only go full teamkilling murderhobo but also disingenuously wring hands and passive-aggressively smirk “but but but it’s what my CHARACTER would do!!!!”

Either obliterating your entire party or forcing them to build around your time-bomb build: it’s not a bug, it’s a FEATURE!

Yes I am using blue text as sarcasm

[ShurikVch]

It's a fun PrC. What you're looking for is Righteous Wrath, a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It does specify Rage, however, and your DM may rule it doesn't apply to Frenzy.

Note: You have to be Good.If we including things that work for Rage, but not necessary - for Frenzy, then:
Firestorm Berserk PrC (Dragon #314) 8th-level CF Ventilating Shout: ends your Rage as standard action, all creatures in 15' take 1d6/class level fire damage
Primal Rager PrC (Dragon #295) 2nd-level CF Quell the Rage: stop the Rage for a number of rounds equal to your Wis modifier; at the end of this time, you may choose to either resume Rage, or stop it altogether
Torque of Lucid Raging (Dungeon #126): "Crafted by savage shamans for use by barbarian commanders, these thick metal chokers allow raging wearers to retain a measure of control despite their battle frenzy"; 9000 gp

[noob]

Spend all the frenzies in the morning and you still have a rather good prc.
That or get good enough will saves for ending frenzy when you want to.

[16bearswutIdo]

A common argument is that you don't have to use the most effective means of attack against enemies. You can choose to make unarmed strikes against your allies to deal nonlethal, and while you may knock them out, it's easier to heal and heals faster.

Another way around this is making your weapon an intelligent item. Assuming you use something rigid like a sword, you cannot attack it with itself, so have to use unarmed strikes, assuming you don't have other weapons.

The text very specifically states "To the best of your abilities", so this is kind of a moot argument. I don't think any DM would rule that dropping your sword is to the best of your abilities.


To the OP: I had a PC run a Frenzied Berserker ubercharger. He got extremely lucky with a Deck of Many Things and drew the Knight, which he used to make a whip/net/tripping specialist for the sole purpose of restraining him if he went insane, to hilarious effect.

another thing you could try is picking up a Merciful weapon. If we assume "to the best of your abilities" roughly translates to "dealing maximum damage", the FB would have to keep the merciful enchantment active for the extra 1d6, thus dealing non-lethal damage.

[Willie the Duck]

I heard that this prestige class can attack anybody including teammates. It's a seek and kill prestige class. Is there any way to control this insane prestige class or no? :eek:

It is a high-risk, high-reward martial PrC that is either the coolest thing ever or one of WotC's dumbest ideas ever (or both). There are a million and one ways to control/negate the character, given there number of weak points and restrictions that the class has. Of course, your opponents can use all of these tricks too, so the actual reward you get for putting up with the problems the class could potentially make are kinda limited ("I have an invincible warrior who can power attack like crazy, but both my friends and our allies know how to circumvent them"). Once those limitations, plus the preparations the rest of the party goes through to handle your character, the overall benefit lines up with most other reasonably good martial combat builds.

[The Viscount]

The text very specifically states "To the best of your abilities", so this is kind of a moot argument. I don't think any DM would rule that dropping your sword is to the best of your abilities.


To the OP: I had a PC run a Frenzied Berserker ubercharger. He got extremely lucky with a Deck of Many Things and drew the Knight, which he used to make a whip/net/tripping specialist for the sole purpose of restraining him if he went insane, to hilarious effect.

another thing you could try is picking up a Merciful weapon. If we assume "to the best of your abilities" roughly translates to "dealing maximum damage", the FB would have to keep the merciful enchantment active for the extra 1d6, thus dealing non-lethal damage.

If the best of your abilities does indeed translate to dealing maximum damage, you could always take full Power Attack Penalty to decrease your chances of hitting (though of course increasing the damage if you do).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Frenzied Berserker is totally a PrC for folks who not-so-secretly want to not only go full teamkilling murderhobo but also disingenuously wring hands and passive-aggressively smirk “but but but it’s what my CHARACTER would do!!!!”

Either obliterating your entire party or forcing them to build around your time-bomb build: it’s not a bug, it’s a FEATURE!

It's -really- not hard to prevent any team killing if you build for a solid will save. I already showed some basic math to be reliably hitting +16 on the level you become a FB. That's only a 15% chance to flip out on a party member and if you make the save both at the end of the turn you drop the last enemy and the beginning of the turn you would attack an ally then your failure rate should be 2.25%

For outside of combat it's still only 15% if you're hit by a trap or sniped or something and will only go down from there.

You're also coming at your allies with your attack bonus cut in half from resolute, removing both a substantial portion of your PA potential and at least one attack from your full attack routine. I haven't even touched on things like having levels in a good will save class or picking up iron will.

[Quertus]

In another less ethical party, one guy hated my character so much he took levels of FB. I just made sure my hexblade was never the closest to the FB and my movement rate was higher than other party members.

So, who did he end up attacking? Did he ever kill another party member?


To the OP: I had a PC run a Frenzied Berserker ubercharger. He got extremely lucky with a Deck of Many Things and drew the Knight, which he used to make a whip/net/tripping specialist for the sole purpose of restraining him if he went insane, to hilarious effect.

I can picture it. Sounds awesome! Any stories (especially if already posted somewhere) of particularly memorable instances especially worth retelling?


Or get a Craft: Contingency Otiluke's Resilient Sphere that goes off when all none-party members are dead or you would attack a party member. Then they walk out of site until the Berzerker calms down.


another thing you could try is picking up a Merciful weapon. If we assume "to the best of your abilities" roughly translates to "dealing maximum damage", the FB would have to keep the merciful enchantment active for the extra 1d6, thus dealing non-lethal damage.

Giving the FB weapons that you are immune to (or at least won't kill you), contingencies (like O's R.S. (one of my personal favorite spells to Contingency anyway, btw) or Teleportation), other targets (real or illusionary), or even custom cursed Boots of Grease are all good ways to try to get around the class's TPK potential. Maybe look up "Festering Anger" for more ideas on how to handle ticking time bombs.

EDIT: is this something that Iron Heart Surge can actually help with?

[RedMage125]

Just going to re-iterate again that a wand of Calm Emotions is cheap, the FB may always choose to voluntarily fail a save against it (as the text does not say he views all allies as enemies). Even if you do not allow that to negate the frenzy outright (as it is not "rage"). it does prevent him from attacking anyone. Just have the cleric maintain concentration on the calm emotions spell until frenzy wears out.

[Morty]

As far as 3.5 D&D goes, "get really angry and hit people, possibly allies, really hard" is hardly the craziest thing you can do.

[Bartmanhomer]

I know this is a ridiculous question but have anyone ever banned Frenzied Berserker? :confused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know this is a ridiculous question but have anyone ever banned Frenzied Berserker? :confused:

I don't but I'd be utterly stunned if someone didn't answer in the affirmative. Even the extremely low-risk that is presented by a berserker that's well built is more than some are willing to entertain, especially if they've already got a "no PVP" rule in place.

[GrayDeath]

I know this is a ridiculous question


When has that ever stopped you? ^^



but have anyone ever banned Frenzied Berserker? :confused:

Probably lots of people.

I know that I ban them in purely Good Groups and Groups that generally are not feeling good when the possibility of PVP exists.

[RedMage125]

I have pretty strict "no PVP" rules, and I allow it.

They just have to try and take precautions to make sure it doesn't happen. And sure, there's been a few times that an ally got smacked.

It's part of the risk. I would rather recommend that any player considering going for this PrC talk with the other players out of character, and see how everyone feels about the risk and what can be done to mitigate it. if the party would rather not deal with it, then it's a jerk move to do it. if everyone's on board with the risk/benefit ratio, then it's fair game.

I don't know why that's such a shocking and novel solution. Talk about things and come to agreement and compromise? Perish the thought!

[El'the Ellie]

I DM'd a campaign for a very long time where a PC was a frenzied berserker. It was fun for everyone involved, but it should also be noted that this group has been friends for a long time. The FB boosted his will save a lot and wore a mantle of second chances that he used to reroll on the rare occasion he failed his DC 20 will save. He still ended up killing a PC once, but... *shrug* they were both okay with it, and it made for some interesting roleplaying when that character was eventually raised.


I know this is a ridiculous question but have anyone ever banned Frenzied Berserker? :confused:

I never have, but I would definitely recommend banning it for a group of less experienced players and/or a group that is not already good friends. PC vs PC can lead to some real world nastiness when people don't have an understanding beforehand.

This is a side note (because mechanically it doesn't work with frenzied berserker) but I've taken to, if two players want to fight IC, have them both OOC agree on what they would like to happen, and then fudge all the game rules to make that so.

[Morty]

People talking about Frenzied Berserkers really makes it feel like 2007 again.

[tiercel]

I know this is a ridiculous question but have anyone ever banned Frenzied Berserker? :confused:

I don’t think it’s a ridiculous question at all; in my experience, while it’s technically not been a hard ban, it’s been more “is the whole group cool with this?” There’s a certain degree of that with any build, and not least of all builds that are significantly different optimization level than the rest of the group, but since the groups I’ve been in have been pretty solidly “no PvP” it means players look askance at FB.

It’s true that the FB player and the group can take steps to mitigate the frequency or consequences of an out-of-control Frenzy, but sooner or later -especially if playing a full campaign- there will be a “natural 1” sort of scenario and FBs are generally built to be one-round-kill (possibly one-hit-kill) machines. As the length of play increases, the likelihood of an intraparty frag approaches 1.

[elonin]

Gosh, most people are reacting like Frenzied Berserker is not totally a PrC for folks who not-so-secretly want to not only go full teamkilling murderhobo but also disingenuously wring hands and passive-aggressively smirk “but but but it’s what my CHARACTER would do!!!!”

Either obliterating your entire party or forcing them to build around your time-bomb build: it’s not a bug, it’s a FEATURE!

Yes I am using blue text as sarcasm


And this surprises you how? I've played in a group in which someone played a VOP wear bear that used that feat to justify taking far more than their share of the loot to donate per a reading of the feat. Can't recall the wording of that feat that was used to justify that. Ended up leaving the group shortly after that.

I'm curious what the designers were thinking with letting those in frenzy continue crafting.

[The Viscount]

I'm curious what the designers were thinking with letting those in frenzy continue crafting.

I'm not sure I understand this. Could you explain what you mean?

[Kelb_Panthera]

And this surprises you how? I've played in a group in which someone played a VOP wear bear that used that feat to justify taking far more than their share of the loot to donate per a reading of the feat. Can't recall the wording of that feat that was used to justify that. Ended up leaving the group shortly after that.

Abusive players don't need mechanical support to be abusive. They'll twist the rules, logic, and even the DM's own words as needed to get their way. The only shut-down for that is a DM that recognizes what's happening and puts a hard stop to it; "screw the rules, screw what I said, either straighten up and fly right or don't let the door hit you."


I'm curious what the designers were thinking with letting those in frenzy continue crafting.

Craft is int based. A berserker in his frenzy cannot use that skill. He's explicitly forbidden from use of item crafting feats in a frenzy as well.

[Bartmanhomer]

Abusive players don't need mechanical support to be abusive. They'll twist the rules, logic, and even the DM's own words as needed to get their way. The only shut-down for that is a DM that recognizes what's happening and puts a hard stop to it; "screw the rules, screw what I said, either straighten up and fly right or don't let the door hit you."



Craft is int based. A berserker in his frenzy cannot use that skill. He's explicitly forbidden from use of item crafting feats in a frenzy as well.

This is a serious case of chaotic stupid. :sigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is a serious case of chaotic stupid. :sigh:

Can't tell if you're agreeing with me or calling me a d-bag... I mean, cool either way. I've been called worse. Just asking for clarification.

[Bartmanhomer]

Can't tell if you're agreeing with me or calling me a d-bag... I mean, cool either way. I've been called worse. Just asking for clarification.

I'm agreeing with you. I'm not calling you names.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm agreeing with you. I'm not calling you names.

Cool. :smallsmile:

Like I said, I don't mind people thinking ill of me but I much prefer to be certain of it than to presume.


Just to stay on topic, did you know that FB can get you to near deific strength?

Goliath barbarian 11/ FB 8 with the reckless rage feat and the mountain rage ACF

Base str 22

+4 from levels

+6 from greater rage

+2 form mountain rage

+2 from reckless rage

+10 from greater frenzy

+6 from a belt of giant strength

makes 52 total.

The god of strength, Kord, only has 55 according to deities and demigods. How crazy is that?

[Bartmanhomer]

Cool. :smallsmile:

Like I said, I don't mind people thinking ill of me but I much prefer to be certain of it than to presume.


Just to stay on topic, did you know that FB can get you to near deific strength?

Goliath barbarian 11/ FB 8 with the reckless rage feat and the mountain rage ACF

Base str 22

+4 from levels

+6 from greater rage

+2 form mountain rage

+2 from reckless rage

+10 from greater frenzy

+6 from a belt of giant strength

makes 52 total.

The god of strength, Kord, only has 55 according to deities and demigods. How crazy is that?
I don't think Ill of you. You're a very nice person. You're one of a few people I get along with in this forum. Also oh wow awesome sauce that's insane. So much strength. :eek:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Just to stay on topic, did you know that FB can get you to near deific strength?

Goliath barbarian 11/ FB 8 with the reckless rage feat and the mountain rage ACF

*snip*

makes 52 total.

The god of strength, Kord, only has 55 according to deities and demigods. How crazy is that?

I think we could get that higher, but doing so requires some other, obscure rage-like abilities. This is a tangent, but I once set out to build a character with every (non-spell) rage ability I could find. Admittedly, I did so with DM approval that a Changeling with the Racial Emulation could qualify for Race: Whatever ACFs, classes, and Prestige Classes. I don't recall the exact breakdown of what I did take, but I know I used the same Mountain Rage ACF, some Frenzied Beserker, the Battle Fury of a Beserk (for another +6 Str/+6 Con), Fist of the Forest (with USS and the Fire/Ice rage-enhancing feats for some not-terrible unarmed strikes), and I think some absurd way to cheat on the shifting racial feature for Weretouched Master and its associated shifting bonuses (maybe also Outcast Champion and another, racially-restricted PrC or feat. I don't recall).

A regular Shifter could qualify most of the above (and, really, would probably play better than the monstrosity I'm describing).

[ixrisor]

Goliath barbarian 11/ FB 8 with the reckless rage feat and the mountain rage ACF

Base str 22

+4 from levels

+6 from greater rage

+2 form mountain rage

+2 from reckless rage

+10 from greater frenzy

+6 from a belt of giant strength

makes 52 total.

The god of strength, Kord, only has 55 according to deities and demigods. How crazy is that?

With LA buyoff and a +5 tome, you have 58 strength, and you can probably get even more with the strength domain or something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think we could get that higher, but doing so requires some other, obscure rage-like abilities. This is a tangent, but I once set out to build a character with every (non-spell) rage ability I could find. Admittedly, I did so with DM approval that a Changeling with the Racial Emulation could qualify for Race: Whatever ACFs, classes, and Prestige Classes. I don't recall the exact breakdown of what I did take, but I know I used the same Mountain Rage ACF, some Frenzied Beserker, the Battle Fury of a Beserk (for another +6 Str/+6 Con), Fist of the Forest (with USS and the Fire/Ice rage-enhancing feats for some not-terrible unarmed strikes), and I think some absurd way to cheat on the shifting racial feature for Weretouched Master and its associated shifting bonuses (maybe also Outcast Champion and another, racially-restricted PrC or feat. I don't recall).

A regular Shifter could qualify most of the above (and, really, would probably play better than the monstrosity I'm describing).


With LA buyoff and a +5 tome, you have 58 strength, and you can probably get even more with the strength domain or something.

Oh I know better can be done. I've done it. I was deliberately keeping it simple here for the sake of staying on the topic of frenzied berserker.

Top of my head, the above can drop a lot of levels for warhulk. Lose 6 gain 20. Make up the BAB with a skillful weapon. So that's str 66 with a fairly minor chanage.

Speaking of D&DG, making the ~93 str to match Thor would be impressive.

[tiercel]

Abusive players don't need mechanical support to be abusive. They'll twist the rules, logic, and even the DM's own words as needed to get their way. The only shut-down for that is a DM that recognizes what's happening and puts a hard stop to it; "screw the rules, screw what I said, either straighten up and fly right or don't let the door hit you."

Point taken, but there’s no point in pitching a ripe, juicy target to any player who mightn’t have put in the effort otherwise. “Will eventually turn on the party” is basically baked into Frenzied Berserker to the extent that the player — and rest of the party — has to go way out of their way to mitigate it.

It’s a bit like the difference between “a rogue’s player who wants their character to steal from the party will find a way to do so” and “kender are allowed to exist in this campaign.”

[Kelb_Panthera]

Point taken, but there’s no point in pitching a ripe, juicy target to any player who mightn’t have put in the effort otherwise. “Will eventually turn on the party” is basically baked into Frenzied Berserker to the extent that the player — and rest of the party — has to go way out of their way to mitigate it.

People making poor build decisions is something the rest of the party has to deal with regardless. Deadweight is deadweight after all. A FB that didn't have the sense to pump his will save probably left plenty of other gaps that the party can take advantage of to keep it from being much more than an annoyance and it's trivial from the DM angle to put tough enough or numerous enough targets in front of the party to mitigate the odds if it's really necessary. You're already far enough along in the game for res magic to be reachable by the time FB hits the table anyway. Make him pay for at least a chunk of it, if not the whole thing when he whacks somebody.


It’s a bit like the difference between “a rogue’s player who wants their character to steal from the party will find a way to do so” and “kender are allowed to exist in this campaign.”

Kender can be played well, kleptomania and all. They still have to make the skill checks to pick pockets, just like any other character too. The race's penchant for it is just a convenient excuse and is easily seen through with a disruptive player.

If you want to take mechanical options from a diruptive player, just go whole-hog and take 'em all (read; show him the proverbial door.) Otherwise, be firm and make him knock it off, regardless of excuses. You might also remind the other players that their characters have every right to abandon a dangerous psychopath if they're worried his self-control is inadequate to keep that psychopathy pointed in the right direction.

Worse come worse, there's always the odd stray rock falling from the clear-blue sky option.

[elonin]

Abusive players don't need mechanical support to be abusive. They'll twist the rules, logic, and even the DM's own words as needed to get their way. The only shut-down for that is a DM that recognizes what's happening and puts a hard stop to it; "screw the rules, screw what I said, either straighten up and fly right or don't let the door hit you."



Craft is int based. A berserker in his frenzy cannot use that skill. He's explicitly forbidden from use of item crafting feats in a frenzy as well.

Thought someone made a comment earlier in this thread listed crafting as something you could do while frenzied. Also, if that was true then the people who created FB were ok with someone who was so PO'd he can't see straight but can continue crafting.

[lord_khaine]

I know this is a ridiculous question but have anyone ever banned Frenzied Berserker?

Of course. In my eyes FB is likely the worst designed class Wizards has -ever- released.
It gets a massive boost in melee power that it makes all the other party members pay for, especially the melee ones.
And forces the rest of the party to design itself around it.

Really, i just about everyone else in the party would need to twist their backstory as well,
since it doesnt make sense for any regular adventure to party with the guy who might kille them at the drop of a rock.
Its just about designed to hog the spotlight from everyone else in the party.

[RedMage125]

Of course. In my eyes FB is likely the worst designed class Wizards has -ever- released.
It gets a massive boost in melee power that it makes all the other party members pay for, especially the melee ones.
And forces the rest of the party to design itself around it.

Really, i just about everyone else in the party would need to twist their backstory as well,
since it doesnt make sense for any regular adventure to party with the guy who might kille them at the drop of a rock.
Its just about designed to hog the spotlight from everyone else in the party.

That's a bit of hyperbole, isn't it? FB isn't even the worst designed class in that book. Dark Hunter, Rage Mage, Ronin...way worse designs.

It gets a massive boost of melee power that makes the other party members plan around it, not necessarily "pay for it" or "design around it". A wand of Calm Emotions is 4,500 gp. The party (or at least the FB) is level 7 by the time this is an issue. The cost/benefit ratio of (4,500 gp vs melee power boost of the FB) favors the FB. If you have even one party member who can use that wand without a UMD check, you have a 100% guaranteed way to stop the FB from attacking his allies. 50 uses of keeping the FB from attacking his allies.

The FB doesn't lose the ability to determine friends from foe, even in a frenzy. As long as there are enemies present, the FB can always only attack them. Only when all enemies are defeated does the FB become a potential hazard to his allies. Cleric or whomever with the wand readies an action to use the wand on the FB once battle is almost over, FB voluntarily fails the save vs Calm Emotions, recognizing the cleric as an ally. It's reasonable (but not strictly RAW) for a DM to interpret that the frenzy is straight-up "negated" like a barbarian's rage is. Even if you don't take that interpretation, however, the FB is prevented from attacking for 3 rounds per charge of the wand, giving him more time to make that DC 20 Will save to end the frenzy.

[Morty]

Frenzied Berserker is a class that someone might consider taking for logical reasons and receive tangible rewards from doing so, even if it doesn't suit every game. This alone makes it better than about 75% of PrCs ever released.

[noob]

If a frenzied berserker can choose to fail a save can the party use mass sanctuary?

[lord_khaine]

No im not being hyperbolic there.
I considder FB worse designed than EVERY SINGLE prestice class in the DMG. Yes. Even the weird ones.
The worst they do is make yourself weaker in return for fitting in with a weird theme.
FB meanwhile makes you stronger at the cost of the rest of the group. While as such having a theme that could just as well be replaced by being a barbarian.


It gets a massive boost of melee power that makes the other party members plan around it, not necessarily "pay for it" or "design around it". A wand of Calm Emotions is 4,500 gp. The party (or at least the FB) is level 7 by the time this is an issue. The cost/benefit ratio of (4,500 gp vs melee power boost of the FB) favors the FB. If you have even one party member who can use that wand without a UMD check, you have a 100% guaranteed way to stop the FB from attacking his allies. 50 uses of keeping the FB from attacking his allies.

The FB doesn't lose the ability to determine friends from foe, even in a frenzy. As long as there are enemies present, the FB can always only attack them. Only when all enemies are defeated does the FB become a potential hazard to his allies. Cleric or whomever with the wand readies an action to use the wand on the FB once battle is almost over, FB voluntarily fails the save vs Calm Emotions, recognizing the cleric as an ally. It's reasonable (but not strictly RAW) for a DM to interpret that the frenzy is straight-up "negated" like a barbarian's rage is. Even if you don't take that interpretation, however, the FB is prevented from attacking for 3 rounds per charge of the wand, giving him more time to make that DC 20 Will save to end the frenzy.

No. I stand by my choice of word. Make the party -pay- for.
Its already the case in your lenient example. Where another player is forced to spend one of their most precious resources, a game turn,
on what is effectively being a support character for the FB. And thats only if they perfectly predict when the battle will end.
Else someone can easily be forced to waste more than one action waiting for the FB to finish up.

As for willingly failing a saving throw. Then i think thats an extremely permissive reading of the rules.
The berserker is -not- attacking the closest living target to the best of his ability, if he allows someone else to stop him.
Because the best of his ability would be to make the save, murder whoever is closest, and then cleave whoever is holding the wand.

And thats ignoring the risk of a trap triggering the FB.
Or someone with a longbow and a high hide skill.

[RedMage125]

No im not being hyperbolic there.
I considder FB worse designed than EVERY SINGLE prestice class in the DMG. Yes. Even the weird ones.
The worst they do is make yourself weaker in return for fitting in with a weird theme.
FB meanwhile makes you stronger at the cost of the rest of the group. While as such having a theme that could just as well be replaced by being a barbarian.

That's a bit redundant, isn't it? Given that you must be a barbarian to qualify for FB.



No. I stand by my choice of word. Make the party -pay- for.
Its already the case in your lenient example. Where another player is forced to spend one of their most precious resources, a game turn,
on what is effectively being a support character for the FB. And thats only if they perfectly predict when the battle will end.
Else someone can easily be forced to waste more than one action waiting for the FB to finish up.
When I've run groups with a FB in it, the wand came out of the barbarian's share of treasure.


As for willingly failing a saving throw. Then i think thats an extremely permissive reading of the rules.
The berserker is -not- attacking the closest living target to the best of his ability, if he allows someone else to stop him.
Because the best of his ability would be to make the save, murder whoever is closest, and then cleave whoever is holding the wand.

And thats ignoring the risk of a trap triggering the FB.
Or someone with a longbow and a high hide skill.

Did you miss "ready an action to use the wand on the FB"? Because the FB doesn't start attacking allies until it is his turn and all enemies are already dead.

Furthermore, you are (like so many) extrapolating on what the RAW actually says. The FB attacks "the closest creature" once all enemies are dead. Nothing about that says that the person holding the wand is also seen as an enemy. My personal ruling on this matter has always been that the FB cannot "voluntarily fail the save" if the person holding the wand is the one he is attacking, because THAT person is the only one that the FB can't distinguish as an ally.

So, without trying to draw on how you personally believe that the FB is "compelled to view everyone as an enemy", the RAW says that the FB only attacks one creature at a time, and even then, only after all enemies are dead. So it's not "too permissive", especially given that the cleric or whomever is likely someone the FB recognizes as the source of healing and buffs prior to this. Since, you know, one technically must "voluntarily fail a saving throw" against any and all healing directed one's way as well.

[noob]

It is only DC 20 to end the frenzy.
You can with barely any effort make sure you can not fail on any result other than a 1.
Get a single level dip in cleric and grab simultaneously the pride domain and the luck domain and you will have to spend Your luck domain on average once per 400 frenzies and truly fail at stopping your frenzy in a single turn on average once per 8000 frenzies.
I am sure that you will not do 8 000 frenzies in your adventuring carrier so on average you have less than one frenzy worrying event.
If you really really really want to nearly never have a problem with that you can stack in a luck blade(and it becomes one chance on 160 000).
If that is still not enough you can take the dumb luck feat and guarantee success.

[Quertus]

Sigh. OK, let's look at dealing with a Frenzied Berserker.

Can a Frenzied Berserker make the Spellcraft check to recognize the spell being cast, to know if it's a buff vs a calm emotions spell? Doesn't "to the best of his ability" require him to accept "buffs" (Bluff bluff bluff bluff the stupid ogre)?

The Frenzied Berserker only starts attacking allies once all enemies are *dead*, right? So, if you bring along a troll for him to vent his rage on, or, heck, convince (Bluff bluff bluff bluff the stupid ogre) the Frenzied Berserker that there is an "invisible" (imaginary) enemy that is "always following the party" (or that the planet is an "enemy"), then, by RAW, does he ever start attacking his allies, or can you simply have him tilting at windmills?

And nobody's even mentioned hiring a slave smaller than him, mounted on his back via a special saddle, with a held action to drop marbles, or anything silly like that yet.

[noob]

Sigh. OK, let's look at dealing with a Frenzied Berserker.

Can a Frenzied Berserker make the Spellcraft check to recognize the spell being cast, to know if it's a buff vs a calm emotions spell? Doesn't "to the best of his ability" require him to accept "buffs" (Bluff bluff bluff bluff the stupid ogre)?

The Frenzied Berserker only starts attacking allies once all enemies are *dead*, right? So, if you bring along a troll for him to vent his rage on, or, heck, convince (Bluff bluff bluff bluff the stupid ogre) the Frenzied Berserker that there is an "invisible" (imaginary) enemy that is "always following the party" (or that the planet is an "enemy"), then, by RAW, does he ever start attacking his allies, or can you simply have him tilting at windmills?

And nobody's even mentioned hiring a slave smaller than him, mounted on his back via a special saddle, with a held action to drop marbles, or anything silly like that yet.

Even worse: there is always an invisible opponent it is just that you can not find it(it is too much well hidden)
It is just basic awareness to know that there is always from one to an infinity of hidden opponents around.
If you are not assuming that then you are going to have your character die at some point.
If that is not true then it means your gm is 1: completely uninterested by intrigue stories
2: intentionally have only villains that hates tactics and scouting
and 3: does not knows the tricks to get a high stealth(and move silently) check(such as training an maxed hd giant scorpion in stealth or using a rogue with feats or using the dark creature template and so on).

[16bearswutIdo]

No. I stand by my choice of word. Make the party -pay- for.
Its already the case in your lenient example. Where another player is forced to spend one of their most precious resources, a game turn,
on what is effectively being a support character for the FB. And thats only if they perfectly predict when the battle will end.
Else someone can easily be forced to waste more than one action waiting for the FB to finish up.



"Grug cleaves the final enemy kobold in half, then turns and looks at you with frothing foam at his mouth"

'I wave my wand of calm emotions'

It's that simple. You don't even need to take a prepared action unless your DM is actively trying to use the FB to kill you.

[El'the Ellie]

"Grug cleaves the final enemy kobold in half, then turns and looks at you with frothing foam at his mouth"

'I wave my wand of calm emotions'

It's that simple. You don't even need to take a prepared action unless your DM is actively trying to use the FB to kill you.

While I'm generally arguing in favor of FB, this is best case scenario. Worst case scenario, someone else gets the last blow on the monster, and the FB goes before whoever is holding the wand.

Side note: someone mentioned Dark Hunter possibly being one of the worst classes ever designed. Why the Dark Hunter hate? It's certainly not powerful, but it's not dysfunctional either. Just hyper specific. (Which is how I feel all PrC's should be anyway, but that's an argument for another day.)

[Bartmanhomer]

It'll be very horrific if the Frenzied Berserker slaughters the whole party. :eek:

[Tvtyrant]

The real issue is the five foot steps between attacks ability. A clumped formation could have the FB kill the whole party instantly, not what you want.

The problem with the class is that what it gives you can be gained easily without it. It has moving full attacks, so does a barbarian. It does a lot of damage, so does any pouncing charger. It doesn't die is the only thing unique to the class, which is nice but hardly needed. A Troll Barbarian does everything it does but without killing your own party.

[ShurikVch]

How about some completely emotionless character?
This way, your PC wouldn't fly into Frenzy ever - thus, your party is completely safe from the "friendly" attack - but still get the Power Attack boost, Supreme Cleave, and Diehard bonus feat

[Tvtyrant]

How about some completely emotionless character?
This way, your PC wouldn't fly into Frenzy ever - thus, your party is completely safe from the "friendly" attack - but still get the Power Attack boost, Supreme Cleave, and Diehard bonus feat

I'm nor sure that works by RAW, unless you get a permanent item of Calm Emotions.

Edit: In Gestalt you could be a psion or psionic warrior and manifest schism. Fluff it as the calm within the storm.

[ShurikVch]

I'm nor sure that works by RAW, unless you get a permanent item of Calm Emotions.Well, if 3rd-party is OK:
Emotionless (Ex): You are absolutely emotionless. You do not feel anger, hatred, love, fear, or any other emotion. The law is your only source of comfort and compassion for an enemy is weakness. This extraordinary ability is both a blessing and a curse in disguise. Because all profectors are uncompromising, they become immune to all emotion-based spells and spell-like effects. However, the profector character gains a –4 circumstance penalty to all Charisma-based checks.

If homebrew is OK -
Soulless Template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268813-3-5-PEACH-Soulless-Template):
Emotionless (Ex): A soulless creature is immune to any spell or effect that attempts to influence their emotional state, as they have none. They also gain a +4 bonus against spells such as Suggestion and Dominiate.
Nobody (3.5e Template) (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Nobody_(3.5e_Template)):
Emotionless (Ex): A Humanoid Nobody may be able to put up a front of emotion, and act through the mental steps of emotion, but they cannot actually feel anything. This means that they are completely unaffected by fear effects or rage effects. On the flip side, they also are unaffected by any effect that grants a morale bonus or otherwise uses emotions to empower the Humanoid Nobody.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It'll be very horrific if the Frenzied Berserker slaughters the whole party. :eek:

Yeah, but the odds of that are -extremely- low unless the whole party is being played very incompetently.


How about some completely emotionless character?
This way, your PC wouldn't fly into Frenzy ever - thus, your party is completely safe from the "friendly" attack - but still get the Power Attack boost, Supreme Cleave, and Diehard bonus feat

I'd think that having an inability to rage from being emotionless would make qualifying for FB a bit difficult.


The real issue is the five foot steps between attacks ability. A clumped formation could have the FB kill the whole party instantly, not what you want.

The other 3ish PCs, all clumped together and weak enough to be unable to survive 2 hits, and none of them has the capacity to trip the FB with a reach weapon on the initial charge or otherwise negate an attack or two, and all with AC low enough to virtually guarantee hits? Seems kinda unlikely.


The problem with the class is that what it gives you can be gained easily without it.

I'll bite.


It has moving full attacks, so does a barbarian.

That -comes- from the barbarian level, usually, and is an -optional- choice. If you're going FB, likely an unnecessary one. Unless you're talking about supreme cleave? That's a much rarer feature and without great cleave isn't such a big deal. Dervish does it better but isn't exactly an ideal pairing with barbarian.


It does a lot of damage, so does any pouncing charger.

A pouncing charger needs to charge to do the same kind of damage the FB does when he's standing still. A pouncing FB is virtually unmatched in damage output but it's the very definition of overkill. A regular charge from a FB is just about right unless the GM -wants- to intentionally put down the bricks for that kind of wrecking ball.


It doesn't die is the only thing unique to the class, which is nice but hardly needed.

That depends on the fights you get in. A regenerator can be knocked out. A FB doesn't stop until it's frenzy is over. It's a -big- difference.


A Troll Barbarian does everything it does but without killing your own party.

A troll barbarian gives up 11 levels for the "privilege" of being -much- more difficult to roleplay character with 5 fewer HD and the attendent skills, attack bonus, and hit points, along with 6 levels of giant with no class features other than the regen and some decent physical ability scores.

Even then, he's struggling to keep up with a FB of any of the standard races.

The "killing your own party" thing is -way- overblown. 99 times out of 100, you'll drop one ally when you lose control and you'll only lose control maybe once in 50 opportunities, at worst. Yeah, it's a risk. It's a vanishingly small one though and is -wholly- dependent on there being no one in the party that can deal with the FB when he does lose control.

[Bartmanhomer]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Frenzied Berserker teammates would attack the Frenzied Beresker just in case if the Frenzied Berserker attacks his/her teammates first. If the teammates would kill the Frenized Berserker under extreme circumstances as a last resort but that's very rare. :eek:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Frenzied Berserker teammates would attack the Frenzied Beresker just in case if the Frenzied Berserker attacks his/her teammates first. If the teammates would kill the Frenized Berserker under extreme circumstances as a last resort but that's very rare. :eek:

Unless you're built to take on heavy hitters like that, probably better to flee until he makes his save or the duration of his frenzy runs out.

If there's a caster that favors BFC magic in the party,, he might be able to lock it down without having to go so far as to try and kill the FB, which is just as well. Ultimately, FB's deathless frenzy will frustrate any attempts to kill him without going around his HPs anyway; disintigrate, save or die, etc or you're just wasting time.

[Bartmanhomer]

Unless you're built to take on heavy hitters like that, probably better to flee until he makes his save or the duration of his frenzy runs out.

If there's a caster that favors BFC magic in the party,, he might be able to lock it down without having to go so far as to try and kill the FB, which is just as well. Ultimately, FB's deathless frenzy will frustrate any attempts to kill him without going around his HPs anyway; disintigrate, save or die, etc or you're just wasting time.
What's BFC stands for? :confused:

[Efrate]

@bartman battle field control.

I do not like frenzied berserkers as pcs. Assuming a FoM ring at highest levels means he can ignore a lot of otherwise easy ways to shut him down, and the fact that they lend themselves so well to ubercharging and have the highest speed of the party means they are far enough away to charge, and if you do not have something right then and they fail their will save, someone is dying, maybe several someone's because supreme cleave.

The fact that is an in baked part of the class I dislike. No class should have class feature that reads sometimes you will likely kill a party member. The fact that you can negate it does not preclude the fact that you should need to. It is bad design IMO.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What's BFC stands for? :confused:

Battlefield Control. It refers to spells like entange, solid fog, even darkness; spells that can either limit or direct the enemies' movements or available actions so they're easier to deal with.

[Morty]

Once again, at a level where a Frenzied Berserker is really starting to pick up speed, hitting in melee for a lot of damage is really one of the least dangerous things you can do.

[Quertus]

Oh, and I keep forgetting to mention Ring of Nine Lives. Takes that "1-in-400" chance of failing the save down to 0.

You only attack the party if your build is suboptimal.

[RedMage125]

"Grug cleaves the final enemy kobold in half, then turns and looks at you with frothing foam at his mouth"

'I wave my wand of calm emotions'

It's that simple. You don't even need to take a prepared action unless your DM is actively trying to use the FB to kill you.
While I'm generally arguing in favor of FB, this is best case scenario. Worst case scenario, someone else gets the last blow on the monster, and the FB goes before whoever is holding the wand.

As the one who's been suggesting Calm Emotions the whole time in the first place (and have DM'ed for 2 FB PCs in the past...), this happens sometimes. And yeah, every once in awhile, the FB gets in a hit on a fellow PC. And like I said, I rule that if the FB starts going after the cleric, then he cannot voluntarily fail his save (but that's my ruling, not RAW).


Side note: someone mentioned Dark Hunter possibly being one of the worst classes ever designed. Why the Dark Hunter hate? It's certainly not powerful, but it's not dysfunctional either. Just hyper specific. (Which is how I feel all PrC's should be anyway, but that's an argument for another day.)
That was also me.

It's not that it's "dysfunctional", it's just not generally a good PrC. I just cited it as an example of a terrible PrC in the Complete Warrior, because someone else claimed that FB was "the worst prestige class WotC ever released". Dark Hunter is very specific, and the abilities aren't even that great. So it's just sub-par. There's even worse PrCs if you want to get into books like Miniatures Handbook, for example.

I just don't think "worst prC ever published" is a valid indictment of Frenzied Berserker. It's power with a cost, yes. But it functions as it's supposed to, it's thematically appropriate, the abilities are very good (Supreme Power Attack is great for melee greatweapon wielders), and the drawback is easily overcome.

The last one I had in a group I DM'ed for made it all the way to the end of the Age of Worms adventure path. Which means they hit level 21 during the last adventure. The FB ended up as Barbarian 11/Frenzied Berserker 10. His Epic feat was the one that allowed a PC with at least 11 level of barbarian to get the +8/+8 upgrade to rage. So this guy had a 22 STR after levels, a +6 Belt of STR, and when he was in both rage and frenzy had an additional +18, for a 46 STR score. Which means a full -20 Power Attack was still made at a +24 to hit (+18 STR mod, +5 weapon, +1 Epic bonus) and did (with greataxe) 1d12+80+27+5, and as I recall, there was at least one crit, which excited everyone at the table, because (3d12+336) is not trivial damage.

[ShurikVch]

I'd think that having an inability to rage from being emotionless would make qualifying for FB a bit difficult.Only a bit: technically, Frenzied Berserker by itself doesn't required ability to get angry - just have Destructive Rage and Intimidating Rage feats
There are some possible solutions to resolve it: Bonus feats - ignoring prerequisites
Badger lycanthropy - the character, despite being completely incapable to rage, would still get "Rage" on the character sheet - thus, qualify for Destructive/Intimidating Rage