What to do with the Divine Mind? (PF upgrade)

[Aotrs Commander]

So, having finished the lurk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?602124-A-Bolt-from-the-Shadows-the-Lurk-Reborn-(Psionic-Assassin-Pathfinder-1-style)) (I may have even over tuned it a little), my attention turns to upgrading the divine mind to Pathfinder standard.

Problem is, what to actually DO with it. Even the one handbook someone wrote on it considered basically the only class feature was a poorly-worded one from a Mind's Eye article by someone who had clearly forgotten psi-like abilities automatically manifest. It otherwise DOES nothing and has no class features to speak of (+5 feet to an aura (which starts out 1/4 to 1/6 the size of every other classes' aura's radius) is a class feature like trapsense +2 is a "class feature"); the auras themselves are pretty pants compared to the other aura classes (e.g. sublime marshal which we use, or the paladin or the dragon shaman or even just bardic performance...)

The fluff is a bit... Yeah. It's not clear what they were trying to do (psionic paladin maybe?) It doesn't really... DO anything, though.

What, then, to do with it? I'm loathe to admit defeat on this class alone, so there must be something that can be done.

One idea might be to emphasis the ectopic ally as the main class feature, but at that point, you're basically a psioinc PF summoner and you'd be more or less copy-pasting the summoner at that point.



Anyone got any thoughts?

[Gnaeus]

So, having finished the lurk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?602124-A-Bolt-from-the-Shadows-the-Lurk-Reborn-(Psionic-Assassin-Pathfinder-1-style)) (I may have even over tuned it a little), my attention turns to upgrading the divine mind to Pathfinder standard.

Problem is, what to actually DO with it. Even the one handbook someone wrote on it considered basically the only class feature was a poorly-worded one from a Mind's Eye article by someone who had clearly forgotten psi-like abilities automatically manifest. It otherwise DOES nothing and has no class features to speak of (+5 feet to an aura (which starts out 1/4 to 1/6 the size of every other classes' aura's radius) is a class feature like trapsense +2 is a "class feature"); the auras themselves are pretty pants compared to the other aura classes (e.g. sublime marshal which we use, or the paladin or the dragon shaman or even just bardic performance...)

The fluff is a bit... Yeah. It's not clear what they were trying to do (psionic paladin maybe?) It doesn't really... DO anything, though.

What, then, to do with it? I'm loathe to admit defeat on this class alone, so there must be something that can be done.

One idea might be to emphasis the ectopic ally as the main class feature, but at that point, you're basically a psioinc PF summoner and you'd be more or less copy-pasting the summoner at that point.



Anyone got any thoughts?

I think Divine mind, while far from good, is better than most think. Divine Grace is a solid class feature for a tank. And it does have access to move+full attack powers on a full bab base. All of which adds up to high mid tier 5 in my mind as opposed to the bottom.

Anyway. I’d give it lurk manifesting (because starting at level 4 hurts) add 5 feet to the aura and give it bonus feats or pathfinder style pool of talents at 2nd and every third or 4th level after.

[liquidformat]

So the first question is what is the point of divine mind? In my mind here are its supposed niches:

Cha based manifester
group face
buffer
maybe adding in debuff or crowd control as minor role


Here are my thoughts:

On manifester from the easiest fix is to move its manifesting to start at level 1, sure keep the low point pool and slow progression but start it out at level 1.
take a look at powers known and move them around to focus on buffing and a minor focus on debuff and crowd control.
Divine grace is nice and maybe also add class features to get Cha to AC as well as attack to cement the class's focus on cha.
Add in bluff, diplomacy, sense motives and maybe intimidate to skill list maybe perform oration for giggles too.
Overhaul Mantles to give them some teeth
Make auras a power boost also look at maybe adding resistance to energy damage or buff saving throws.


All and all the class already has everything it needs it just needs to have its abilities cleaned up and boosted

[Aotrs Commander]

I think Divine mind, while far from good, is better than most think. Divine Grace is a solid class feature for a tank. And it does have access to move+full attack powers on a full bab base. All of which adds up to high mid tier 5 in my mind as opposed to the bottom.

I mean, that's... damning with the faintest of praise if I ever heard it.

The problem with the move+full attack thing is, I believe, it isn't a class feature, it's one feature off one mantle. Having to select, like that one mantel for the divine mind to be able to... do something suggests that the choices availabel are load of pants.




Anyway. I’d give it lurk manifesting (because starting at level 4 hurts) add 5 feet to the aura and give it bonus feats or pathfinder style pool of talents at 2nd and every third or 4th level after.

Better manifesting is, I think, probably a given - but what sort of things would PF-like talents for it want to be doing, do we reckon?


(My own first pass stuffed it full of bonus feats a la fighter (every other level - but before PF and even during, I'd already given fighter afeat every level.))




So the first question is what is the point of divine mind? In my mind here are its supposed niches:

Cha based manifester
group face
buffer
maybe adding in debuff or crowd control as minor role


Here are my thoughts:

On manifester from the easiest fix is to move its manifesting to start at level 1, sure keep the low point pool and slow progression but start it out at level 1.
take a look at powers known and move them around to focus on buffing and a minor focus on debuff and crowd control.
Divine grace is nice and maybe also add class features to get Cha to AC as well as attack to cement the class's focus on cha.
Add in bluff, diplomacy, sense motives and maybe intimidate to skill list maybe perform oration for giggles too.
Overhaul Mantles to give them some teeth
Make auras a power boost also look at maybe adding resistance to energy damage or buff saving throws.


All and all the class already has everything it needs it just needs to have its abilities cleaned up and boosted

Okay, the first thing to say here is the Divine Mind is a Wis-based manifester, not Cha.

Now that said, you make a fracking good arguement that as psionic-knock-off Paladin, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN a Cha-based manifester, for a kick-off. That's a real good thing to put in.

Heck, that's more of a clear goal than it seemed it had before, the divine mind can maybe Do Talk Things as well as just, sort of semi-effectually swing at stuff while it's slightly over-powered summon does its real job...!

Hmm... Actually, yeah, a bit of actual Leader stuff in there (bonus teamwork feats with a "share it out with party" like the tactician, even,) seems like that's a direction that would make sense. So for a starter for ten, something so obvious as Make Him A Leader (see, this is why sometimes you need to bounce ideas off people!).

I 'spose leader-y sort of talent isn't a bad idea, actually, since I don't think any other class actually does that outside auras and teamwork feats.. But talents (orders? advice? or whatever you'd call 'em) that give benefit to your team mates isn't a bad idea.

Heck, actually, Leader type would even fit with ectopic ally - you always has a mate to give Orders/Advice to, even in a small party!

(My average party size is 6-8, so that's never an issue. Rogues, for example, virtually never have to worry about not being able to SA, because there's always some fracker there to get a flank with!)



A good question, one feels, is how necessary the mantles really are? They have always felt rather underdeveloped (rather like everything in Complete Psi...), both in terms of fluff and mechanics; you have to ask whether it might not be better for both Divine Mind and maybe even Ardent to essentially scrap them and collate all their powers into a single list and reduce the mantles down to effectively just their granted power. (And maybe just turn the divine mind's mantles into re-named auras and hand thm out more like rogue talents or whatnot.)

Since Ardent - while not as badly off - suffers from a similar problem in that the handbook for that was mostly suggesting "use the Mind's Eye alternate class feature to fill the gaps in your mantles" as one of the best features, which I think is kind of damning inditement on the mantles to start with for simply being half-arsed and incomplete.

(I have considered a complete mantle overhaul by trawling through all the psionic powers, but to some extent, I'm trying not to make myself tons and tons of extra work at least at the juncture I'm trying to wind things back a bit...!)

Collating all the mantle powers into a single mantle list would benefit for at least giving all divine minds hustle without having to HAVe to essentially take that one mantle, so that's food for thought; it would somewhat solve a couple of issues, at the expense of marginally reducing the mostly-flavour idea of mantles.

(I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to get a great divine caster if you only got to pick, like, six domains as your entire spell list, and only get THAT choice at pretty high level; you'd get kind of functional, and even if you were able to freely pick domains instead of getting what the god gave you, you'd likely be having to pick one or two the same, simply because they offered better options... But that's what Ardent gets, with the added kick in the teeth that most of those domains aren't even full of spells!)

[liquidformat]

Sorry I had meant to say changing to Cha based manifester but somewhere along the way talked myself into it having that already...

Anyways, if you don't want to completely overhaul the Mantles you could actually just use the Devotion feats and there abilities and maybe mess around with sharing mechanisms. All and all I think going 'leader' rather than hordeling is an interesting way to build the class as well.

I had fun a while back doing something similar with my Marshal Knight (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JQ0ASlof3lsjwbeZEy0FM4mWyEeXelcji0x0Ju-oKSo/edit?usp=sharing) class that I made. Though still debating on the what to put in at level 18.

[Gnaeus]

I mean, that's... damning with the faintest of praise if I ever heard it.

The problem with the move+full attack thing is, I believe, it isn't a class feature, it's one feature off one mantle. Having to select, like that one mantel for the divine mind to be able to... do something suggests that the choices availabel are load of pants.

Better manifesting is, I think, probably a given - but what sort of things would PF-like talents for it want to be doing, do we reckon?


(My own first pass stuffed it full of bonus feats a la fighter (every other level - but before PF and even during, I'd already given fighter afeat every level.))
teeth that most of those domains aren't even full of spells!)

I’m not trying to build it into something it isn’t. It’s one of my favorite T5s, but I’m not pretending. It’s one of my first choices in tier based gestalt and I like it better than 3.5 monk.

I agree with respect to some mantles being basically required. You need freedom or conflict. Maybe more mantles would be good. Part of the reason it’s T5 in my mind is that it’s easy to screw up. That said, the playground being what it is, I’ve been seeing a lot of assumptions lately for higher base optimization levels than I agree with personally.

My concern with pile of feats is that it then just clobbers PF fighter. So really, the first q is what do you want it to be. A solid T3 like most of the DSP classes, or a combat capable T4 like most of the PF muggles if they make reasonable choices.

As for talents, I’d be looking at psionic versions of paladin class features, like divine (psionic) bond. Maybe an option to build a network like a mender or tactician. Extra powers known or power points.

[Zaq]

I think Divine mind, while far from good, is better than most think. Divine Grace is a solid class feature for a tank. And it does have access to move+full attack powers on a full bab base. All of which adds up to high mid tier 5 in my mind as opposed to the bottom.

Anyway. I’d give it lurk manifesting (because starting at level 4 hurts) add 5 feet to the aura and give it bonus feats or pathfinder style pool of talents at 2nd and every third or 4th level after.

It’s not full BAB, and divine grace is literally its only class feature that uses CHA.

To answer the OP’s question, how deep into homebrew are you willing to dive? What if you gave it a new niche by allowing it to manifest personal-range buff powers on allies in the aura? Psionics are famously poor for party buffing, so there’s some good design space to play around with there.

[JMS]

Take a look at DSP’s highlord, it’s a similar psionic leader and warrior.

[Psyren]

If you must do it (I hate the fluff with a passion), I'd make it an archetype of the Tactician, Psywar or even Ardent if you're going with that. It doesn't need to be a standalone class honestly.

[Prime32]

Make it an Inquisitor archetype that gets psionics instead of spellcasting, and modifies judgement into an aura.

As for the weird divine-psionic fluff, best option I can think of is making them "spiritually pure". One who can see hidden things and hear their voices, who through their own power scrubs the land clean to make it a suitable place for the divine to reside (costless consecrate, hallow and/or banishment SLAs as class features, basically). And get rid of the part where they can lose innate abilities by breaking a code of conduct. Maybe look at PF's idol (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/idols/) mechanics - they might be good at negotiating with idols, or capable of stabilising their spirits (which staves off entropy for the next month as if they'd received sufficient sacrifices).

Another option would be to take "you radiate a constant aura" and extend it into "you can imbue things with auras, which persist without your input". That's a rare field for psionics.

[animewatcha]

What about combining marshal and divine mind. I'm surprised that a feat wasn't made for these two as multiclass since they are both Aura fanatics.

[Aotrs Commander]

If you must do it (I hate the fluff with a passion), I'd make it an archetype of the Tactician, Psywar or even Ardent if you're going with that. It doesn't need to be a standalone class honestly.

Yeah? I suppose, if you kept it at 3/4 Bab and downgraded the HD,,,? (I apparently, had already ungraded the divine mind to full BAB.)

...

...

But now we're at this point, There's a fair arguement to be made, I think at this point, to make Divine Mind an archtype of PALADIN instead, actually, since that WAS sort of what they were going for - only really badly, actually. Just give it a neutral smite that works on owt (maybe down grade to D4s?) and replace spells with psions and twiddle the auras and mercies and stuff...

So, maybe do the "combine all the mantle powers lists into a single list" and then replace mercies with just the current (formerly mantle-based) auras, maybe find somewhere to slip the mantles in as granted powers...? (Where the paladin's auras are now, maybe...?)

(Okay, at this point you're changing as much as antipaladin, and there's a certain arguement to be made that anti-paladin ought REALLY to have been an extensive archtype for paladin rather than its own class, so whether this is "archtype of paladin" or just "subclass of paladn" would be a matter for debate.)

Straight-up "not-paladin of a diety but psionic" makes more sense than the half-arsed fluff the divine mind had before, anyway. Rounds it out (if you have crusader for noncaster/manifester)...!


Thoughts?

[upho]

But now we're at this point, There's a fair arguement to be made, I think at this point, to make Divine Mind an archtype of PALADIN instead, actually, since that WAS sort of what they were going for - only really badly, actually. Just give it a neutral smite that works on owt (maybe down grade to D4s?) and replace spells with psions and twiddle the auras and mercies and stuff...This sounds more reasonable IMO. Although there's already the Purifier (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-options/paladin/purifier/) psionic pally archetype.


So, maybe do the "combine all the mantle powers lists into a single list" and then replace mercies with just the current (formerly mantle-based) auras, maybe find somewhere to slip the mantles in as granted powers...? (Where the paladin's auras are now, maybe...?) My worry with this would be that the divine bit doesn't have much of a mechanical impact anymore. Which in turn means the archetype (or class) comes dangerously close to the zealot (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/zealot/) (which is also clearly stronger than the PF pally and vastly superior to the 3.5 Divine Mind). Actually, I think it may fit even better as a zealot archetype with limited manifesting from domain-specific power lists.

I'm honestly doubting whether a PF-version of the DM would be of much value. There's a considerable risk it just ends up as pointless bloat, its concept better realized by existing PF classes. AFAICT, the only way to avoid this is to emphasize the divine connection. Make the choice of deity/domain really matter. Unfortunately, that's also a lot of work if the result is to be reasonably balanced instead of a no-brainer choice between a couple of options (like in the 3.5 version).

[Aotrs Commander]

This sounds more reasonable IMO. Although there's already the Purifier (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-options/paladin/purifier/) psionic pally archetype.

My worry with this would be that the divine bit doesn't have much of a mechanical impact anymore. Which in turn means the archetype (or class) comes dangerously close to the zealot (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/zealot/) (which is also clearly stronger than the PF pally and vastly superior to the 3.5 Divine Mind). Actually, I think it may fit even better as a zealot archetype with limited manifesting from domain-specific power lists.

I'm honestly doubting whether a PF-version of the DM would be of much value. There's a considerable risk it just ends up as pointless bloat, its concept better realized by existing PF classes. AFAICT, the only way to avoid this is to emphasize the divine connection. Make the choice of deity/domain really matter. Unfortunately, that's also a lot of work if the result is to be reasonably balanced instead of a no-brainer choice between a couple of options (like in the 3.5 version).

Hmm.

I'm half-tempted to say you're right, and replace divine mind with that zealot, but... At that point, it then becomes more specific to me, and I don't know how well the Path of War stuff meshes into an environment where ToB (plus some fan homebrew from the old WotC forums some of which I contributed to) is the primary adept source (and is in use with at least one character in every party I have), for one thing (or what to replace what path of war with what tob school with).

Secondly, I ree-heaaaaaaaally do NOT want to add a metric ton of new martial schools right now - 50% because that's a lot of work on the rules side and 50% because I would have to make, print, cut out and store all the maneuver cards for them.

[Psyren]

Ultimately it's up to you to make what you feel are the best choices for your "3.Aotrs" system. From my perspective though, psionics and divine magic are polar opposites in this respect and can't be adequately meshed. Divine is the ultimate representation of power coming from outside the self, while Psionics is the ultimate representation of power coming from within. This is why Divine casters can "fall" for violating whatever tenets, rules, or philosophy is representative of the power they draw from, and it's why psionicists should never be able to. For me, the Divine Mind's power is a inherent oxymoron.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ultimately it's up to you to make what you feel are the best choices for your "3.Aotrs" system. From my perspective though, psionics and divine magic are polar opposites in this respect and can't be adequately meshed. Divine is the ultimate representation of power coming from outside the self, while Psionics is the ultimate representation of power coming from within. This is why Divine casters can "fall" for violating whatever tenets, rules, or philosophy is representative of the power they draw from, and it's why psionicists should never be able to. For me, the Divine Mind's power is a inherent oxymoron.

Have to respectfully disagree on that, I'm afraid - but I view magic and psionics as just, in the end, a form of power (one of several...), which still runs off the You. Even divine magic is not fully power from without, else it wouldn't have internal limitations (e.g. spell slots). A wizard casts a spell by doing all the complex mathmatical calculations to make reality roll over and scream, a cleric... Well, I think fundementally, in the best lies-to-children way of putting is the cleric, via a very specific prayer, hands god a wadge of magic and says "please set that gentleman over there in the corner on fire a lot, ta muchly, chief."



Let me put it this way; I basically come from Rolemaster, where there is Essence magic (3.x's arcane), Channenling magic (3.x's divine) and Mentalism magic (D&D's psionics1; the description of mentalism is more or less "works like divine magic, but you are effectively a super-minoir deity"2), and you have characters that draw from both realms. (Necromancers are Ess/Chan for example.) And if you add all three realms together, you get Arcane (a.k.a The Really Broken Four-Asterisks).

So from my point of view, Divine Mind (should probably be) just an Chan/Ment realmed character, like, say Warlock is in RM.

(Now, if you want to argue from Rolemaster's mechanical perspective that "but Bleakbane, you can't have a hybrid semi-spell users, semi-spell users are all one realms and arms and hybrid are all two realms," and I can argue "and is a hybrid semi-spell user who will have very few spells considering the costs it creates possibly going to be worse than the archmage who gets to pick whatever the hell spell lists he likes out of all of Rolemaster?" and you can say "oh, yeah, okay, I see your point, Bleakbane...!")

So fundementally, I don't see there being a problem with you (metaphorical you, obviously, at this point) and god meeting up and saying "hey god, I wanna be a paladin, but I can't use magic," and god saying "hey, no problem dude, you still have groovy mind-powers, let's team up together and combine our powers!" As I always am of the opinion that By Our Powers Combined is fundementally better and more fun than Mutually Incompatible.

(Do NOT get me started on the whole Science Verses Magic nonsense (Dragonflight makes me cringe at that last bit, to this day)...)

(Else I would not be such a fundementally big fan of 3.x's multiclassing system, which was its single best idea ever.)



My problem with the divine mind's flavour was not it that was fundementally "psionic guy teaming up with god to smack people around," it was because it was a poorly written paragraph of complete guff which didn't really TELL you anything or mean anything in the grand scheme of things (and in that, rather adquately reflected the mechanical result of the divine mind).

"Psionic Paladin" is, as far as my outlook on the universe goes, a valid fluff concept, it's the mechanics that need work on. (I mean, it took me until this thread to even grock that it what the divine mind probably was intended to be, but really the only evidence is "divine" in the name and them having Divine Grace as a class feature, really...)




1Argueably until you integrate SpaceMaster's slightly different psionics that is like magic or the entirely DIFFERENT psionics alternate rules in SpaMCoII, and then things get confusing, but by then you're also dealing with Prosaic magic and potentially Elemental magic as a whole other realm, so...

2RM never statted gods (well, not outside of the Valar on Middle-Earth oif that counts, and they showed a cheerful disregard for realm), but it raises an interesting possiblity that gods would all mentalism-realmed casters... Think about that for a moment in context with D&D...!

[Psyren]

That's fine, we can agree to disagree. Yes there's a "You" component to divine magic too, but the fact of the matter is that divine casters can Fall (as can Divine Minds) and lose their powers, while psionicists can't.

And as far as "I want to mechanically be a devout servant of deity X without being a divine caster" - that's represented more than adequately throughout PF, just look at the Obedience subsystem and its related prestige classes, especially Evangelist.

[Yogibear41]

divine grace is literally its only class feature that uses CHA.




They can take Serenity. Boom, no need for charisma.


If Divine Mind was full bab I think it would be a really good class honestly.

[Karl Aegis]

Wouldn't Divine Mind be more of a Warpriest Archetype than a Paladin? Trade out Blessings and Fervor for Mantles and Psionic Auras and give them a halfway decent powers known progression. Let them get access to all mantles offered by their diety for using items, but let them only choose powers from mantles selected. Give them two mantles at level one and one more at six and twelve.

[Bucky]

Keep - Auras, meaningful mantle choices
Ditch - mantle auras that don't scale (or barely scale), -4 ML, +5' aura initially being meaningful because it starts at 0, 1 hour to change auras, dead levels
Meh - Grace

It'd be nice if they had a few off-mantle powers, but the mantle selection still strongly influenced their manifesting repertoire.

[Sereg]

Maybe give it a domain and allow it to treat the domain spells as psionic powers?

[Zaq]

Ultimately it's up to you to make what you feel are the best choices for your "3.Aotrs" system. From my perspective though, psionics and divine magic are polar opposites in this respect and can't be adequately meshed. Divine is the ultimate representation of power coming from outside the self, while Psionics is the ultimate representation of power coming from within. This is why Divine casters can "fall" for violating whatever tenets, rules, or philosophy is representative of the power they draw from, and it's why psionicists should never be able to. For me, the Divine Mind's power is a inherent oxymoron.

[Note: I'm not saying that this is the existing fluff. It is not. I'm proposing it as a way—which I would personally find interesting—of bridging the "psionics internal, divine magic external" gap.]

Just playing devil's advocate here: what do you feel about the fluff potential of a divine mind's powers still coming from within, but it's catalyzed by their connection to the deity? I think we could potentially have some fun if the understanding was that the divine mind viewed a deity less as an object of worship and more as a really powerful mentor figure. That would actually, to me, be an interesting dichotomy between a divine mind's connection to their deity and a traditional divine caster's connection to the same deity.

As I'm envisioning it, in a setup like this, the divine mind is still using his/her/their own mind as the source of their powers, but it's through their relationship with the deity that they realize that they can do so at all. So their psionics are somewhat colored by the teachings of that deity (or rather, by the aspects of the deity's teachings that matter the most to the divine mind—hence mantles), but they aren't necessarily (and really shouldn't be) absolute slaves to that deity's doctrines. To invoke the cliché, it's still a case of "the power is within you the whole time," but it's through the lens of the concept of the deity that the DM becomes sufficiently familiar with / comfortable with / aware of their own psionic potential that it actually, well, manifests.

This means, crucially, that in the way I'd play it, the DM would usually be drawn to rely on the deity until such time as they felt like they could continue alone. Again, think of a mentor figure. Let's use musical ability as an awkward analogy for psionics. In this analogy, the DM doesn't automatically start playing music on their own (contrast with, like, the self-taught wilder who picks up a guitar in middle school and has a moderately noteworthy solo career by their mid-twenties), but at some point in their life—through their own choices, their environment, the urging of someone close to them, or whatever is interesting for that character's story—they end up learning how to play music (manifest psionics) through the instruction of a musical tutor (deity). Left alone, the DM probably never would have picked up an instrument; with tutoring, they've got far more potential than they would have guessed. If they stick with it, some DMs will keep learning from that tutor from a really long time, and some DMs will stick with the tutor long enough to learn how to grow and then they'll strike out on their own, letting their own research, practice, and experience be their source of advancement. They'd still recognize that the tutor got them started and they'd (probably) feel some degree of gratitude for the broadening of perspective that came along with that, but they're able to advance and grow without still being taught by the same tutor.

Naturally, we'd leave room for the player/character to interpret the depth of direct intervention of the deity in the character's life. Just like we can have some clerics who feel personally chosen by their deity and feel that the deity literally speaks to them and some clerics who were just drawn to the church/role/whatever (but they both pull spells from the same deity), we can have DMs who feel like the deity personally teaches them how to unlock their mental potential and we can have DMs who feel like learning about the deity's portfolio helped them self-recognize their own abilities (with the implication that they wouldn't have otherwise—you know, the old "I got into [xyz philosophy] because I started researching it after it came up a few times in [abc book that wasn't directly about xyz philosophy]" feeling). Having a range like that would be 100% normal and expected.

Just my opinion, of course. But I think that this proposal has potential as a way of justifying the DM's existence in a fluff sense without completely stomping over what psionic power means.

(The class itself is still hot garbage that needs a massive amount of TLC to be on par with its psionic brethren, of course.)

[Psyren]

@Zaq: I still don't find it appealing, but your write-up is detailed/admirable.



It'd be nice if they had a few off-mantle powers, but the mantle selection still strongly influenced their manifesting repertoire.

The Medium sort of works like this - they have a limited "base list" but the caster spirit they channel has a big influence on the actual power of their spellcasting, particularly the high-level stuff. Just put more spells in the mantle(s) than in the central list (or if that's excessive, at least tweak the ratio) and you're basically there.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just to say, I'm still mulling over things at this, point, still taking everything said on board. I was just crossing a few more ts and dotting a few more is in the last couple of days... At this point, I can ACTUALLY see the light at the end of the tunnel now...!

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, I've had another bit of a think, and I think before I tackle the Divine Mind properly, I think the issue of Mantles need to be addressed, which is good 'cos it'll cover the Ardent as well.

To whit.

Mantles are like the Domains, but kind of half-arsed. They're very unbalanced in a way which the Domains aren't, because the variance in domains is backed up by the extraordinatily solid cleric spell list.

Th Ardent and the Divine Mind don't have that.

The Ardent, which is essentially supposed to be a psionic cleric full caster, essentially only has 2 powers of every level, plus 3 1st and 4 9th. (Sure, you could skew that down to more powers of lower levels, but the odds are, most of the time, you'll take the highest level power you can when you learn a new power).

The mantles are so thin that even WotC basically said "just fill in the blanks yourself!" because the couldn't be arsed to make up enough new powers. So to fix that, you either have cart blache to make up your own power list (for what little good that does) or muggins has to make up enough new credible powers to fill the gaps himself with thematically appropriate, likely new powers.

It also means that you also have to assign every diety a load of mantles in addition to their domains, for the sake of the Divine Mind and maybe Ardent.




Maybe give it a domain and allow it to treat the domain spells as psionic powers?

Honestly? The more I think about it? This isn't such a bad idea.

One. Cohere, as I mused before, all the existing mantle power into the equivilent of the "cleric spell list." Even Ardents are only going to pick two powers from every level, so to some extent, it kind of doesn't matter much?

The mantles would then have a direct equivilence to a domian (or maybe more than one, if there's more than one suitable and you get to choose which one). The Ardent and/or Divine mind picks a mantle, and gets the granted power of the mantle, plus the granted power of the domain. (Bearing in mind that aside from some Turn-creature-removing tweaks, the domain powers are 3.5 standard, not PF, so they're not getting a lot!)

They also get to manifest the domain's spells, one of each level per day, as a Psi-Like Ability. (You could either let them freely pick, or you could make them only learn [x] number of each level. I'd be inclined just to let the ardent manifest one SLA, picking from any of their ultimately six domain choices when the manifest it.)

This would preserve to a degree the flavour a bit of the mantles being domain-like with ramifications beyond just a granted power, but without requiring as much work again to make them actually sensibly work as domains. It also (though Psyren will wince) meshes with the Rolemaster Mentalism take, that the ardent/divine mind is essentially manifesting the spell through his own power, not from god, and becomign a super-minor divinity in his own right as it were, so it's not totally unaligned with flavour.

It is, I'll admit, maybe just a little bit of a cheat, but considering the effort involved, I think it's be fine. Ardents felt horribly starved for powers anyway, this gives them a bit more flexibility.



That issue potentially solved, the Divine Mind's auras can remain tied to the mantles (and after a balance pass) and one of those choices isn't tied to Freedom just so they can get Hustle, and they can be integrated into the chassis (possibly still paladin-base).

Thoughts?