Problem of leveling up

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

I have a strange problem and sometimes(most of the time, actually) playground really comes up with really good advice, so I turn to you.

I'm running a 5e module Mine of Phandelver and players are passing the events nicely. I messed up a bit at leveling up, though. Due to them not killing several encounters, but alloweing half of opponents to run away and regroup, there became a "super blob" of enemies. PCs had fought them, it was a great fight and ... I decided to give them a level.

Now, this module can be XP-driven, or you can give PCs levels per milestones. I found the very hard fight they have encountered, a real braking point in the campaign and have given them levels. Things went on and eventually, they got another level. They are currently level 3 and they are just plowing throught ANYTHING in the module (there is one more exception waiting for them - a green dragon), but mostly, they are alrady a real heroes that can waltz through a dozen goblins no problem. And I saw players after four or five sessions of combat getting frustrated, because they did not get another level up.

And I understand them. They must have filled their "XP quota" for next level three times over, it is true. But, milestone is still not there!

I, as a DM, have another problem. I do not want to ramp up difficulty of an entire world in order, to make things more challenging and thus more interesting, for my players. This is not Skyrim and at the same time - if PCs have earned their power levels, they should enjoy them. On the other hand, I do not like to run fights, where NPCs have zero chance in hell.

So I think I'll stick to my milestone approach, no giving it up, but I'd still like your opionion. I know EVENTUALLY PCs will encounter proper opponents, but it will take some time, which i may not enjoy as much.

[Firest Kathon]

I advise you to communicate this problem to your players. You wrote that they are not happy that they have not leveled up, so the best way is to tell them someting along the lines of "Hey guys, sorry, I messed up the leveling. It will be about X sessions until the next level." Maybe you can also give them something for it (e.g. some cool minor magic item). In the end, it's the problem with running a finished module which expects the players to have certain levels at certain parts. Again, tell them, they should have understanding for it.

In addition, you could skip battles which are "too easy". Alternatively, the goblins might recognize the "terrifying goblin slayers" and give up/run away without combat - that certainly will give the players a sense of achievement.

[DeTess]

So, regarding milestones: If you use those, you should communicate that to your players, and then not also use XP on the side. Xp does not have any meaning while using milestones. PC's might level up after gaining nowhere near enough XP to do so if they where using XP, or they could only encounter the next milestone after a series of grueling fights that would have gained them 2-3 levels if you where using XP, and that's fine. But the players should be aware which one you're using.

Regarding the problem with having the fights be too easy; If you're not willing to make the fights tougher, you should maybe skip them. Either remove the fights from the module altogether, or skip over them using the power of narrative: "You make your way through the caves. You et ambushed by goblins several times, but the weak greenskins are no threat to you at all, and you easily dispatch them"

[Pinjata]

Great advice, guys, really! :) I had a plan of talking to my group about this, but idea of skipping easy encounters is great!

[Quertus]

So, if you had given the PCs the XP from the encounters, what level would they be now? At what level will they be able to defeat the green dragon?

[Pinjata]

So, if you had given the PCs the XP from the encounters, what level would they be now? At what level will they be able to defeat the green dragon?
At least level 5, I think. They could defeat him at level 6, but module caps them at lvl4 at that point.

[Imbalance]

I'm in a similar pickle with the same module, though the encounters haven't been overly easy due to a combination of poor dice rolls and foolishness (the sorcerer gets the party into more trouble than anything else). I'm sticking to milestones, too, but I'm letting the players bookkeep the XP that the adventure says to award to try and stay parallel with their expectations. Doesn't much matter, though, since most of their character sheets get updated by me, anyway.

[HouseRules]

OD&D
1 lb gold = 10 gold coins = 10 xp, but 1 gold coin =/= 1 xp.
Three Little Book: about 20 enemies to level up, and slowly increase because of 100 xp per HD.
Supplement I: Greyhawk - 200 enemies to level up to level 2, about 100 enemies per level after that.
More experience gains using the xp per hp rule and the xp per treasure rule.

AD&D 1E
AD&D 2E
Holmes' BD&D aka BD&D 1E
Moldvay's & Cook's BXD&D aka BD&D 2E
Mentzer's BECMI D&D aka BD&D 3E
Troy's The New Easy-to-Master D&D aka BD&D 4E
Allston's RC/WotI D&D aka BD&D 5E
Troy's The Classic D&D aka BD&D 4E - removed the tournament module
1 lb gold = 10 gold coins = 10 xp, but 1 gold coin =/= 1 xp.
Similar to Greyhawk
More experience gains using the xp per hp rule and the xp per treasure rule.

D&D 3E
1 lb gold = 50 gold coins =/= 10 xp except through Wish to unidirectional conversion of xp to gold.
13 1/3 enemies per level

D&D 4E
10 enemies per level

D&D 5E
6 to 30 enemies per level depending upon level

[Quertus]

At least level 5, I think. They could defeat him at level 6, but module caps them at lvl4 at that point.

The module… caps their level. Uh-huh.

Well, yeah, I'll agree with "talk with the players". Let them know all this, and see what they have to say.

Me? If I knew going in that I'd be throwing away XP, I'd look for ways to spend it that would usually be suboptimal, just so that I didn't feel like I was "wasting" all the XP that I had "earned".

[DeTess]

Me? If I knew going in that I'd be throwing away XP, I'd look for ways to spend it that would usually be suboptimal, just so that I didn't feel like I was "wasting" all the XP that I had "earned".

Quertus, for context: this is for fifth edition. There is no way to spend xp other than levelling up, and milestone levelling is an official variant.

[Tanarii]

So, regarding milestones: If you use those, you should communicate that to your players, and then not also use XP on the side. Xp does not have any meaning while using milestones. Milestones in 5e are a way of handing out XP. You hand out an amount of XP equal to a Hard encounter for a Major Milestone, and an Easy Encounter for a Minor Milestone.

Leveling without XP is called exactly that, Leveling Without XP.

[DeTess]

Milestones in 5e are a way of handing out XP. You hand out an amount of XP equal to a Hard encounter for a Major Milestone, and an Easy Encounter for a Minor Milestone.

Leveling without XP is called exactly that, Leveling Without XP.

Huh, you're right. I've seen everyone call 'level advancement without xp' milestone leveling though. Doesn't really change my claim though, as both are in the DMG.

[Tanarii]

Huh, you're right. I've seen everyone call 'level advancement without xp' milestone leveling though. Doesn't really change my claim though, as both are in the DMG.
People commonly misapply it to D&D 5e. I'd guess it was a common usage term in the community before 5e release and 5e tried to redefine it. So ... technically it could be the 5e Devs are the ones who are wrong. :smallamused:

[Hellpyre]

People commonly misapply it to D&D 5e. I'd guess it was a common usage term in the community before 5e release and 5e tried to redefine it. So ... technically it could be the 5e Devs are the ones who are wrong. :smallamused:

It was, in fact, a somewhat common term. Of course, it was applied in many ways in prior editions depending on group, some of which applied XP as a portion of the amount needed to level. So the community and the rulebooks are at odds, but not terribly much so.

[Lvl45DM!]

Hey guys,

I have a strange problem and sometimes(most of the time, actually) playground really comes up with really good advice, so I turn to you.

I'm running a 5e module Mine of Phandelver and players are passing the events nicely. I messed up a bit at leveling up, though. Due to them not killing several encounters, but alloweing half of opponents to run away and regroup, there became a "super blob" of enemies. PCs had fought them, it was a great fight and ... I decided to give them a level.

Now, this module can be XP-driven, or you can give PCs levels per milestones. I found the very hard fight they have encountered, a real braking point in the campaign and have given them levels. Things went on and eventually, they got another level. They are currently level 3 and they are just plowing throught ANYTHING in the module (there is one more exception waiting for them - a green dragon), but mostly, they are alrady a real heroes that can waltz through a dozen goblins no problem. And I saw players after four or five sessions of combat getting frustrated, because they did not get another level up.

And I understand them. They must have filled their "XP quota" for next level three times over, it is true. But, milestone is still not there!

I, as a DM, have another problem. I do not want to ramp up difficulty of an entire world in order, to make things more challenging and thus more interesting, for my players. This is not Skyrim and at the same time - if PCs have earned their power levels, they should enjoy them. On the other hand, I do not like to run fights, where NPCs have zero chance in hell.

So I think I'll stick to my milestone approach, no giving it up, but I'd still like your opionion. I know EVENTUALLY PCs will encounter proper opponents, but it will take some time, which i may not enjoy as much.

I mean, I know you said that you don't want to ramp up difficulty, but you implied that its because you don't want a 'video gamey' effect of scaling monsters to their level.

BUT

Consider ramping up the difficulty either contextually or narratively.

If theres a dozen goblins, either
A) They fight smarter, using traps, cover, the terrain to their advantage. They fight in a mine shaft riddled with little side tunnels that the sneaky goblins pop in and out of, whittling them down. Change the circumstances of the fight

Or

B) Theres not a dozen goblins, because the shaman sacrificed 6 of them to summon a Devil to back them up, out of stark terror because the PC's are so casually annihilating their minions. Or the goblins hire a Drow mercenary group, enslaving themselves to save their lives.

Either way the characters feel like they got to be more powerful, enjoy it, have an impact on the world and also get fun fights.

[Son of A Lich!]

First off, yes, talk it out with your players. Make sure they understand that you are not punishing them by not handing out XP.

Next up, "The Module Says..." is always weaker then "The fun thing to do is..." - If your players are having fun, and you go off the rails of the module and can keep up, then dive in and have fun. I know there are many MANY players that want to experience "Proper" D&D, but mistakes will always happen. We are all human, and learning to shake off a couple of mistakes and keep the game moving is a skill that DMs of any game should practice at first.

Finally, you might want to take this as an opportunity to practice Encounter Design. Your players are a little higher then where they are supposed to be. That's cool, so imagine the next fight like it's in a comic book or movie - how do you make it more interesting then rolling initiative and hacking at each other? Why are the rooms designed the way they are in the module? What happens if you change it? The Module writer didn't know your party's composition, is there something that one player likes to do and doesn't get a good chance to practice? How can you give them opportunities to try it? Can you modify the enemies so they aren't all the same static blocks they were before? Maybe the players are expecting 8 Goblins, but now it's 8 and 1 'Shaman' with wild shape and the Fog Cloud Spell. The Goblins had bows and daggers, so drop the Bows and give them spears. Now there is a fog cloud in the middle of the battlefield and a Giant Worg sniping bites in and out of the cloud using his sense of smell. Bonus points if one of the players speaks Goblin and you can give them insight into the goblin's tactics.

Remember that, as a DM, you get to play with parts that you've never played before and get to test the PCs mettle with them, but the PCs are always playing the same characters session after session. They can't change that on the fly, so if encounters are "This is the room and Kill these guys before they kill you", the players start to get into a rut - they know what they are doing this encounter, because they've done it in every encounter thus far. Encounters in a room that is on fire, with a fire elemental, on the other hand - Now they have to figure out how to protect themselves against incoming damage they were not prepared for, the Red Dragonborn Sorcerer is suddenly surprisingly tanky for the party and the cleric needs to consider who and when to hand out heals to or how to put out the fire and keep the fire elemental from setting it on fire again. This is a drastic change up from their usual routine that they can't just shrug off as another usual fight.

Also, check out Critical Role. Matt Mercer is pretty good with his encounter designs by only changing up a few elements to make it his own. If nothing else, each episode has at least one set piece that challenges the group in a unique way.

[SimonMoon6]

This sort of thing is an inherent part of any game that has massive power increase with discrete "levels" of advancement. (Mostly, this is just D&D but some copycat games are similar.) The problem is the game system.

For many people, this is not a problem. They enjoy having everything constantly scale. ("Oh, you did x damage to kill a goblin with x hp? Congratulations, now you do x + 1 damage and every goblin you meet has x + 1 hp. Don't you feel how much more powerful you are?") For some people, that's the fun of the game, the illusion of progression, getting slightly larger numbers to kill other monsters that have equally slightly larger numbers. To me, that's just silly, but many people really love that sort of thing.

The problem can not be fixed without switching game systems (unlikely to happen while in the middle of an adventure, though I've been known to do it). And even switching game systems may not be an acceptable solution if it is that particular quality of the game system that is desired by the players.

So, there is no fix. It's the old "feature/bug" dilemma. (Is leveling up a feature or a bug of the game system?) But once you've accepted that you're using a game system in which players level up, one of two things happen: (1) all enemies magically scale up in difficulty or (2) a lot of adventures suddenly become way too easy.

[Onos]

I mean, I know you said that you don't want to ramp up difficulty, but you implied that its because you don't want a 'video gamey' effect of scaling monsters to their level.

BUT

Consider ramping up the difficulty either contextually or narratively.

If theres a dozen goblins, either
A) They fight smarter, using traps, cover, the terrain to their advantage. They fight in a mine shaft riddled with little side tunnels that the sneaky goblins pop in and out of, whittling them down. Change the circumstances of the fight

Or

B) Theres not a dozen goblins, because the shaman sacrificed 6 of them to summon a Devil to back them up, out of stark terror because the PC's are so casually annihilating their minions. Or the goblins hire a Drow mercenary group, enslaving themselves to save their lives.

Either way the characters feel like they got to be more powerful, enjoy it, have an impact on the world and also get fun fights.

Yeah this is in line with my 2 pence, if badass heroes suddenly appear then a proportionate response is absolutely fine in-game. Obviously a goblin/kobold/etc tribe may not be able to upscale 10 levels, but 2-3 shouldn't be a huge issue. Desperate times call for desperate measures an all that. Likewise a group that is struggling may be "underestimated" to help them along a little bit, particularly with intro quests like Phandelver. In my view this actually helps versimilitude rather than hindering it, if there's literally no wiggle room in a quest it can seem a bit railroady.

OP, for your case specifically I'd suggest recalling scouts and outlying forces to increase numbers and also throwing in a handful of more difficult enemies (big fan of the devil summoning idea). More cannon fodder will deplete the party's resources while making them feel fairly badass, and combined with a few mini-bosses will emphasise the threat they pose. Bonus points if the party can find some indication of in-world reasoning, maybe with overheard conversations via Comprehend Languages or something.

[Incorrect]

2 points of advice

Just use milestone levels. I have done so for the last 10 years and I never miss xp.
But be very clear, and tell everyone how they can expect level-ups.
This might even encourage your players to seek other solutions to a problem than fighting.

If you see that your party will wipe the floor with an encounter, just free-form it.
"You guys murder the goblins. Fighter, 4 goblins are coming towards you, describe how you kill them"
"Rogue, you have flanked the leader, describe what you do"