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samuraijaques
2019-11-08, 07:25 PM
Hey all, the most recent unearthed arcana has provided some much needed love for my favorite underrated mechanic, hand to hand combat. With bonuses to both unarmed attacks and grappling through the unarmed fighting style and an additional grappling based maneuver I think it's time to re look at the optimiziation of some fun pugilistic characters.

What's the best character we can make that fights in hand to hand and abuses the power of grappling?

I was leaning toward simic hybrid barbarian/fighter. Hybrid gives us 2 extra arms for grappling and bonuses to 2 stats we care about. Barbarian rage gives us advantage on athletics and some much needed survivability. And fighter battlemaster gives us that lovely lovely restraining attack as well as a bundle of other valuable maneuvers. I'm imagining a character a lot like goro from mortal kombat.

What does everyone else think? How would you use the new content to kill enemies with your bare hands?

Protolisk
2019-11-08, 07:42 PM
I will be entering a campaign I had to make an exit from, and the unarmed fighting style caught my eye since they needed a front liner, and I like control.

I don't like multi-classing all that much, so I was just simply thinking going Variant Human with Prodigy to get expertise in athletics, then Battle Master for the Restraining Strike and the fighting style. The way I see it, if I do grapple a target with the maneuver (and it shouldn't be hard with Expertise and near maxed Strength, plus the multitudes of spell-casters in the party to hopefully give me advantage) I both get increased damage from the style, and advantage on my attacks, and I don't really need feats for things like GWM. It also provides a bit of buffing allies on the grappled target via restrain, since I know a lot of them use Dex spells like Guiding Bolt often, and the rest just use flat attacks, so restrain looks very good in combination with them. I was also going to use a versatile Warhammer so that I still get a slightly increased damage buff and hopefully get more magical weapons, as the DM doesn't give homebrewed items all that much. However, the DM does often give items that hold spells X times per day, so maybe an Enhance Ability or Enlarge belt might be coming my way. Maybe.

I was actually asking how others would build such a character. If multi-classing was allowed, I'd easily take the barbarian too for easy advantage.

Daithi
2019-11-09, 12:37 AM
Here is my shot at this challenge. Apologies if I gotten something wrong, which is not only possible, but probable.

Ranger-2/Barbarian-3/Ranger-6/Fighter-11
Variant Human to take Shield Master as a feat.
Ranger-2 gives--
- Medium Armor and Shield
- Deft Explorer - Tireless feature which adds a ton of temp hit points if high WIS.
- Deft Explorer - Tireless feature also adds recovery of 1 exhaustion level (see Barbarian).
- Favored Foe / Hunter's Mark adds extra 1d6 every time you strike something.
- Unarmed Fighting Style delivers 1d8 when hitting with both hands or 1d6 when hitting with one hand.
- Unarmed Fighting Style adds 1d4 damage on a successful grapple attempt.
- Unarmed Fighting Style adds an extra 1d4 on a melee hit of a grappled opponent.
- 2 cantrips and one should be Guidance to add 1d4 to ability checks (e.g. grappling, shoving)
Barbarian-3 (Berserker) gives--
- Rage which gives advantage on Strength checks (e.g. grappling, shoving)
- Rage which adds +2 to damage for melee weapon attacks (e.g. unarmed attacks)
- Rage which adds resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
- Frenzy gives a single melee weapon attack (e.g. unarmed strike, grapple, shove) as a Bonus Action on each turn.
- Frenzy suffers 1 level of exhaustion when rage ends, but Ranger's Tireless feature negates.
Ranger-6 gives--
- Extra Attack at 5th
- Deft Explorer - Canny grants expertise with Athletics (doubles proficiency bonus for grappling).
Fighter-11 (UA Brute) gives--
- Action Surge at 2nd level
- Brute Bonus Damage at 3rd is extra 1d4
- Extra Attack at 5th level
- Brute Bonus Damage at 10th is extra 1d6
- Extra Attack at 11th level

Starts as a variant human with the Shield Master feat as this grants a bonus action to shove prone. You'll also want to get STR up to 20 as soon as possible, and you'll want proficiency in Athletics. So, start by shoving prone as a bonus action then use normal attack action to grapple (only 1d4 damage). On your next turn you can drop your shield and start a pounding him. Presumably this will be with one hand, unless you can convince your DM that you have full mount and are grappling with your legs. The Hunter's Mark feature gives you another 1d6 when you hit your foe, so damage will be 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d4 + STR mod. I'll also note that if you have the chance to cast the Guidance cantrip then you can add 1d4 to your grapple/shove ability check. Lastly, note that some of the above comes online at 1st level and some at 2nd level.

Now switch to Barbarian for Rage, which will give you advantage on your grappling and shoving attacks. You'll also get to add +2 to your strike damage, and you get resistance to a bunch of damage. At your 3rd level of Barbarian you can become a Berserker, which gives you an extra weapon attack while raging that can be used to grapple or shove. So, now you can pound them twice on each turn, so double your damage ((1d6 + 1d6 + 1d4 + STR mod + 2) x 2).

Now switch back to Ranger and at 5th level you get an extra attack, so damage for one attack, then another attack, and then the bonus attack. So, ((1d6 + 1d6 + 1d4 + STR mod + 2) x 3). At 6th level you'll also get expertise in your Athletics checks. This means you now have Advantage, Expertise, and 1d4 Guidance on your checks to grapple or shove.

Now switch to fighter and go UA Brute. This adds another 1d4 to your strikes and at 10th level this increases to 1d6. You'll also get another extra attack at 5th and 11th levels, plus you'll get Action Surge at 2nd which means that by 20th level you have one Attack Action, plus 3 Extra Attacks, and can double all of these with Action Surge (for one turn), and you also have your Bonus Attack for a total of 9 attacks. So you have ((1d6 + 1d6 + 1d4 + STR mod + 2 + 1d6) x 9) or an average damage of (3.5 + 3.5 + 2.5 + 5 + 2 + 3.5) x 9 = 180 damage for the first round and 100 damage on subsequent rounds (5 attacks without Action Surge).

However, the main benefit here is that you get your opponent locked down with all of your strikes at advantage and their strikes at disadvantage.

I have another build I'm thinking through as well that is completely different. If it looks good I'll post it here too.

EdenIndustries
2019-11-09, 12:41 AM
- Frenzy gives a single melee weapon attack (e.g. unarmed strike, grapple, shove) as a Bonus Action on each turn.


I don't think the bonus action usable for a single weapon attack allows you to grapple or shove. From the PHB:

"When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it,
you can use the Attack action to make a special melee
attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks
with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them."

I think you have to take the Attack action to sub out attacks for grapples and shoves.

Daithi
2019-11-09, 12:53 AM
I don't think the bonus action usable for a single weapon attack allows you to grapple or shove. From the PHB:

"When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it,
you can use the Attack action to make a special melee
attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks
with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them."

I think you have to take the Attack action to sub out attacks for grapples and shoves.

Actually, I think you're right. The wording here is very confusing as it says "If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them." To me this means your grapple replaces one of the multiple attacks, but I seem to recall that there was a ruling that said otherwise. In event, it doesn't matter. You can use the Shield Master for the bonus action to grapple/shove and after that your extra bonus action can be used to punch someone's face, so I'll just strike the wording in the original above.

Daithi
2019-11-09, 05:37 AM
Here is a similar build but it goes with 3 levels of Monk and only 1 of Barbarian and only 5 of Ranger.

Ranger-2/Barbarian-1/Monk-3/Ranger-5/Fighter-11
Variant Human to take Shield Master as a feat.
Ranger-2 gives--
- Medium Armor and Shield (will eventually ditch shield to strike and grapple with 2 hands)
- Deft Explorer - Canny grants expertise with Athletics (doubles proficiency bonus for grappling).
- Favored Foe / Hunter's Mark adds extra 1d6 every time you strike something.
- Unarmed Fighting Style delivers 1d8 when hitting with both hands or 1d6 when hitting with one hand.
- Unarmed Fighting Style adds 1d4 damage on a successful grapple attempt.
- Unarmed Fighting Style adds an extra 1d4 on a melee hit of a grappled opponent.
- Now gets 2 cantrips and one should be Guidance to add 1d4 to ability checks (e.g. grappling, shoving)
Barbarian-1 gives--
- Rage which gives advantage on Strength checks (e.g. grappling, shoving)
- Rage which adds +2 to damage for melee weapon attacks (e.g. unarmed attacks)
- Rage which adds resistence to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Monk-3 (UA Way of the Astral Self) gives--
- Arms of the Astral Self (3rd Level - 2 ki points)
- You can use your WIS mod in place of your STR mod when making STR checks.
- The arms are monk weapons and have a reach of 10 feet and can add WIS mod instead of DEX or STR mod.
- Can make extra attack with arms as a bonus action.
- Flurry of Blows can spend 1 ki point for two unarmed strikes as a bonus action
Ranger-5 gives--
- Extra Strike to punch in the face one more time.
Fighter-11 (UA Brute) gives--
- Action Surge at 2nd level
- Brute Bonus Damage at 3rd is extra 1d4
- Extra Attack at 5th level
- Brute Bonus Damage at 10th is extra 1d6
- Extra Attack at 11th level

This is pretty close to the other build, but it only takes 1 level of Barbarian for Rage, and does not become a Berserker. So there is no need to take the Deft Explorer - Tireless feature, as there is no need to reduce exhaustion levels. So, instead Deft Explorer - Canny can be taken to gain expertise with Athletics right away. This is followed by a single level of Barbarian to get Rage and advantage on Strength checks. So, as a 3rd level character you have have Advantage, Expertise, and 1d4 Guidance on your checks to grapple or shove. You're a full blown grappler pretty early.

Now you can take 3 levels of Monk and Way of the Astral Self. This gives you astral arms with 10' reach as well as an extra attack to pound your foe one more time. Just as importantly, it allows you to use your WIS mod when you are making Athletics checks and on the damage you make with your unarmed strikes. So you can be a little less MAD by concentrating on WIS, which will also apply to Ranger spells and to Monk ki.

In terms of damage at this point, your first round is to use shield master feat for a bonus action to shove followed by a normal action to grapple (which delivers 1d4 damage). On subsequent rounds your normal action will be an unarmed strike for 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d4 + WIS/STR mod. This is followed by a bonus action for the same amount of damage. This is the same damage as the first build I provided. However, you also have 1 Ki point to spend and this would allow for 1 more unarmed strike.

Now you can go to Ranger-5 (no need for Ranger-6) then go to Fighter-11. Once again, you'll basically have the same damage as you did in the first build I provided.

However, the Arms of the Astral Self can only be used once between short rests. Then again, you can only reduce a level of exhaustion for the Barbarian build once per short rest as well, so probably a wash.

The Dual Wielder (feat) allows you use two weapons that don't have the light property (including unarmed strikes). This allows you to throw a bonus attack with your off-hand, plus it adds +1 to AC. Additionally, when you take a level of Fighter you can choose another fighting style and can take Two-Weapon Fighting to add your STR/WIS mod to your off-hand strikes. This is all useful as a pugilist, but it doesn't help with grappling. When you're grappling then one hand is tied up grappling. If you haven't started grappling yet then it doesn't help you grapple at lower levels. However, it does once you have an Extra Attack as part of your normal attack action. At that point, as part of your normal action you can grapple, and as part of the extra action of your normal attack action you shove. Lastly, you use your bonus action to make an unarmed strike.

RAW, you can't use the bonus action to grapple or shove --- which personally I find stupid. In a home rule game I'd allow it, but that's just me. This would allow you to replace the Shield Master feat with the Dual Wielder feat to become a grappler. Who cares if one of the extra attacks is part of the normal attack or is an extra attack as part of a bonus attack? But once again, it isn't RAW.

da newt
2019-11-09, 07:54 AM
Some random thoughts:

Some races count as large for carrying capacity which doubles your drag weight.

Some races fly - grapple. fly, drop.

Rogue is another way to get double prof for athletics (and SA) and cunning action is great for the BA dash to get to the guy who needs to be grappled NOW.

WRT shield master - isn't one of the downsides to the shield the 1 action requirement to don or doff, limiting you to one free hand unless you burn an action to doff the shield? So push prone and grapple, then doff shield (burns an action), then start hitting the bad guy... (Maybe you can convince your DM to let you pick up the Lizardfolk's spiked shield.)

I think the restrained condition of these builds could be very handy for taking casters out. (restrained arms = no somatic component, right?)

I like the idea of a bugbear grappler thematically. You may be able to take advantage of the surprise damage, reach, and added carry capacity too.

CheddarChampion
2019-11-09, 09:24 AM
How about a V. Human Battlemaster 5/Cleric 9/Battlemaster X?
16/10/14/10/14/10, take prodigy for athletics expertise.
Unarmed fighting style, restraining strike, trip attack, the works.

As a cleric, take spells that benefit from creatures being grappled or restrained: DoT spells you can hold an enemy in, Dex save spells...
The point of the build is that at level 8 you can cast silence, action surge, and attempt a restraining strike against a mage. It should be fairly effective so long as it's not counterspelled (you'll grapple at 1d20+1d8+9).

Consider Str+2, Con+2, Mage Slayer, Grappler, Sentinel, and Tough for feats.

jaappleton
2019-11-09, 09:50 AM
You can use that fighting style and still carry a shield.

Congrats, you're Captain America.

samuraijaques
2019-11-09, 01:18 PM
These are all great guys. Keep em coming

Daithi
2019-11-09, 02:24 PM
As I was going to bed last night, it occurred to me that the reason for going Barbarian-3 or Monk-3 was to get the bonus action for the extra strike. However, after Ranger-2/Barbarian-1 you could simply go straight to Ranger-5 for the Extra Attack.

Ranger-2/Barbarian-1/Ranger-5/Fighter-14 might be a nice easy progression.

Another good option is simply Ranger-2/Barbarian-1/Fighter-17

You wouldn't get the extra strike until level 8 instead of level 6, but the Brute's extra damage die goes to 1d8 at level 16 and you get another use of Action Surge at 17th level. I should also note that you can take the Monster Slayer sub-class as Ranger and this adds another 1d6 on your chosen foe. Total damage at level 20 for this build is--

1d6 (UF) + 5 (STR) + 1d4 (UFG) + +1d6 (HM) + 2 (BR) + 1d6 (RMS) + 1d8 (BBD) = 24.5 damage on average

UF = Unarmed Fighting
STR = Strength Modifier
UFG = Unarmed Fighting Grapple
HM = Hunter's Mark
BR = Barbarian Rage
RMS = Ranger Monster Slayer
BBD = Brute Bonus Damage

You will have one normal attack and three extra attacks plus one bonus attack. If you use Action Surge, of which you have 2 uses, then everything except the bonus attack doubles. So, for two turns you will have 9 attacks for a total of 220 damage, and you'll have 5 attacks on subsequent turns for 122 damage.

CheddarChampion
2019-11-09, 05:01 PM
1d6 (UF) + 5 (STR) + 1d4 (UFG) + +1d6 (HM) + 2 (BR) + 1d6 (RMS) + 1d8 (BBD) = 24.5 damage on average

UF = Unarmed Fighting
STR = Strength Modifier
UFG = Unarmed Fighting Grapple
HM = Hunter's Mark
BR = Barbarian Rage
RMS = Ranger Monster Slayer
BBD = Brute Bonus Damage

You will have one normal attack and three extra attacks plus one bonus attack. If you use Action Surge, of which you have 2 uses, then everything except the bonus attack doubles. So, for two turns you will have 9 attacks for a total of 220 damage, and you'll have 5 attacks on subsequent turns for 122 damage.

3 extra attacks how?
Looks to me like you get 3 on your action... and a bonus action attack from monk?

Additionally, you need to use three bonus actions and one grapple attempt to set this up. "RMS" only applies to the first hit on your turn, and to get the bonus action monk attacks in you have to wait for the fourth round.

Finally, to get the bonus action attack from monk, you can't wear armor. You already need 13's in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, you max out your Str, and what's your endgame AC? 15 or something?
Well, at least you have... only two uses of rage?

Spo
2019-11-09, 06:17 PM
Thought it was settled that for shield master feat you had to do your action first before the bonus action shove to prone feature. Thus, the maneuver of knocking someone prone then attacking them cannot be accomplished with this feat.

CheddarChampion
2019-11-09, 06:51 PM
Thought it was settled that for shield master feat you had to do your action first before the bonus action shove to prone feature. Thus, the maneuver of knocking someone prone then attacking them cannot be accomplished with this feat.

Shield Master may never be settled. Just agreed on in groups smaller than the whole.
As a DM I allow the shove to happen prior, but a PC locks themselves into the attack action.

Spo
2019-11-09, 07:08 PM
Just agreed on in groups smaller than the whole.

Thought it was the game’s designer that came out with that clarification.

CheddarChampion
2019-11-09, 08:10 PM
Thought it was the game’s designer that came out with that clarification.

Not all players/DM's go along with it AFAIK.

It's like a free feat at level one, rolling for stats, playing a blood hunter, using UA material... all Houserules.

Daithi
2019-11-09, 09:30 PM
3 extra attacks how?
Looks to me like you get 3 on your action... and a bonus action attack from monk?

Additionally, you need to use three bonus actions and one grapple attempt to set this up. "RMS" only applies to the first hit on your turn, and to get the bonus action monk attacks in you have to wait for the fourth round.

Finally, to get the bonus action attack from monk, you can't wear armor. You already need 13's in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, you max out your Str, and what's your endgame AC? 15 or something?
Well, at least you have... only two uses of rage?

3 extra attacks how?
You get an Extra Attack at Ranger-5, Fighter-5, and Fighter-11

Additionally, you need to use three bonus actions and one grapple attempt to set this up.
Even without any feats at all, but just 1 Extra action, you can set this up.
You can shove prone on your action, and grapple on your extra action. If you also have a bonus action you can strike as well.
On all subsequent turns you can use all your actions to strike.

"RMS" only applies to the first hit on your turn
You're right about RMS only applying to the first hit on your first turn. I forgot and made mistake.

to get the bonus action monk attacks in you have to wait for the fourth round
???

to get the bonus action attack from monk, you can't wear armor.
The bonus action comes from the Arms of the Astral Self feature and this places no limits on what armor you are wearing.

You already need 13's in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis...
If you are going with the Monk build you only need Dex and Wis 13.
If you are going with the Barb build you need Str, Dex, and Wis 13.

CheddarChampion
2019-11-09, 09:49 PM
3 extra attacks how?
You get an Extra Attack at Ranger-5, Fighter-5, and Fighter-11

Additionally, you need to use three bonus actions and one grapple attempt to set this up.
Even without any feats at all, but just 1 Extra action, you can set this up.
You can shove prone on your action, and grapple on your extra action. If you also have a bonus action you can strike as well.
On all subsequent turns you can use all your actions to strike.

"RMS" only applies to the first hit on your turn
You're right about RMS only applying to the first hit on your first turn. I forgot and made mistake.

to get the bonus action monk attacks in you have to wait for the fourth round
???

to get the bonus action attack from monk, you can't wear armor.
The bonus action comes from the Arms of the Astral Self feature and this places no limits on what armor you are wearing.

You already need 13's in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis...
If you are going with the Monk build you only need Dex and Wis 13.
If you are going with the Barb build you need Str, Dex, and Wis 13.

Different sources of extra attack don't stack. Unless you're using a houserule...?
What I mean with the bonus action stuff is: You get one bonus action per turn. Hunter's Mark takes a bonus action to activate. Rage takes a bonus action to activate. RMS takes a bonus action to activate. That's three turns of bonus actions used. Only on the fourth turn will your bonus action be available for any bonus action attacks.

Per the multiclassing rules in the PHB, multiclassing into or out of different classes have different ability score requirements.
Barbarian requires a minimum of 13 Str and 13 Con. Fighter requires a minimum of 13 Str or 13 Dex. Ranger requires a minimum of 13 Dex and 13 Wis. Monk also requires a minimum of 13 Dex and 13 Wis.
So a character that has levels in barbarian, fighter, and ranger needs 13 Str, 13 Dex, 13 Con, and 13 Wis or they can't take levels in the desired classes.
...I don't like this stat requirement rule myself.

I thought I was looking at a build with 17 levels fighter, 2 levels ranger, and 1 level barbarian. I was trying to figure out where the bonus action attack came from, so I guessed it was from monk...


Another good option is simply Ranger-2/Barbarian-1/Fighter-17

You wouldn't get the extra strike until level 8 instead of level 6, but the Brute's extra damage die goes to 1d8 at level 16 and you get another use of Action Surge at 17th level. I should also note that you can take the Monster Slayer sub-class as Ranger and this adds another 1d6 on your chosen foe. Total damage at level 20 for this build is--

1d6 (UF) + 5 (STR) + 1d4 (UFG) + +1d6 (HM) + 2 (BR) + 1d6 (RMS) + 1d8 (BBD) = 24.5 damage on average

UF = Unarmed Fighting
STR = Strength Modifier
UFG = Unarmed Fighting Grapple
HM = Hunter's Mark
BR = Barbarian Rage
RMS = Ranger Monster Slayer
BBD = Brute Bonus Damage

You will have one normal attack and three extra attacks plus one bonus attack. If you use Action Surge, of which you have 2 uses, then everything except the bonus attack doubles. So, for two turns you will have 9 attacks for a total of 220 damage, and you'll have 5 attacks on subsequent turns for 122 damage.

Looking at the post again I'm even more confused.
You don't pick up a monk level, so IDK where the bonus action attack is from.
You don't have the 5th level of ranger, so IDK where you got the 3rd extra attack from (regardless of rules adherence).

Yeah I'm giving up on trying to understand this.

samuraijaques
2019-11-10, 01:43 PM
Different sources of extra attack don't stack. Unless you're using a houserule...?
What I mean with the bonus action stuff is: You get one bonus action per turn. Hunter's Mark takes a bonus action to activate. Rage takes a bonus action to activate. RMS takes a bonus action to activate. That's three turns of bonus actions used. Only on the fourth turn will your bonus action be available for any bonus action attacks.

Per the multiclassing rules in the PHB, multiclassing into or out of different classes have different ability score requirements.
Barbarian requires a minimum of 13 Str and 13 Con. Fighter requires a minimum of 13 Str or 13 Dex. Ranger requires a minimum of 13 Dex and 13 Wis. Monk also requires a minimum of 13 Dex and 13 Wis.
So a character that has levels in barbarian, fighter, and ranger needs 13 Str, 13 Dex, 13 Con, and 13 Wis or they can't take levels in the desired classes.
...I don't like this stat requirement rule myself.

I thought I was looking at a build with 17 levels fighter, 2 levels ranger, and 1 level barbarian. I was trying to figure out where the bonus action attack came from, so I guessed it was from monk...



Looking at the post again I'm even more confused.
You don't pick up a monk level, so IDK where the bonus action attack is from.
You don't have the 5th level of ranger, so IDK where you got the 3rd extra attack from (regardless of rules adherence).

Yeah I'm giving up on trying to understand this.

I'm reasonably certain it's from "dual wielding" unarmed attacks. Which definitely doesn't work.

Hytheter
2019-11-10, 01:59 PM
You can use that fighting style and still carry a shield.

Congrats, you're Captain America.

I was basically already playing that using Tavern Brawler, but the new stuff makes it so much more effective. The style and the maneuver (I was already a Battlemaster) all but obselete the feat and then some. I may keep TB for when I run out of superiority dice, though, especially since it gives me +1 STR anyway.



The Dual Wielder (feat) allows you use two weapons that don't have the light property (including unarmed strikes). This allows you to throw a bonus attack with your off-hand, plus it adds +1 to AC.

It doesn't work like that. Two-weapon fighting requires you to be holding weapons in each hand, which you definitely aren't if you are unarmed.

tsuyoshikentsu
2019-11-10, 04:51 PM
I feel like you can get very far by just making a Vuman Battle Master. Prodigy for Athletics Expertise at L1, the maneuver at level 3, and Martial Adept at level 8 for 6x per short rest.

Really, I’d honestly just drop the “unarmed” concept at that point and take Dueling instead to repeatedly whack them with a sword.

Hytheter
2019-11-10, 10:25 PM
Really, I’d honestly just drop the “unarmed” concept at that point and take Dueling instead to repeatedly whack them with a sword.

Sure, if you hate fun. :(

The sword is the more effective choice. While grappling it more or less evens out; a weapon user gets slightly more (+0.5) damage per attack but the unarmed guy also gets decent up front damage (+2.5) added any time he starts a grapple. The real issue is when grappling is unviable or impossible, in which case the sword clearly wins. Plus there's magic weapons and the like to consider. Nevermind the possibility of dipping another martial class to get both unarmed AND duelling, which stack on a grappled enemy.

But unarmed is way more stylish. :)

Grapple+shield is a genuine niche though. Besides grappling two dudes at once it's the only thing I can think of that unarmed can do and duelling can't.

Monster Manuel
2019-11-11, 12:25 PM
I was basically already playing that using Tavern Brawler, but the new stuff makes it so much more effective. The style and the maneuver (I was already a Battlemaster) all but obselete the feat and then some. I may keep TB for when I run out of superiority dice, though, especially since it gives me +1 STR anyway.



It doesn't work like that. Two-weapon fighting requires you to be holding weapons in each hand, which you definitely aren't if you are unarmed.

100% correct, RAW, but this is strong houserule territory for me. Letting the fists count as "weapons" for the purposes of two-weapon fighting didn't break anything mechanically, it was just fun.

I even let players pull this off without the feat; you brought a fist to a swordfight, pal. Go ahead and use the straight "two-weapon fighting" rules for an extra bonus action punch that does 1 point of damage with no strength mod. And they DO! For no other reason than because punching bad guys is fun. I can't argue with that.

Of course, with this new UA, I may have to re-think how permissive to be with two-weapon fighting. Letting you have it with a 1+STR punch, or 1D4+STR punch with the investment of a feat seemed like no real impact, but upping that to 1d6+STR plus a free grapple with a bonus 1d4 on grapples, we may have passed the point of "go ahead, you're not hurting anything" territory. I would say, at minimum, if you plan to try attacking with two fists, you can't do the improved 1d8 damage...you're using two SEPARATE hands, not just hitting with both hands.

Argument could be made that the fighting style should downgrade the damage to 1d4/1d6 to be more in-keeping with the existing feats (and also the monk's unarmed strike). The combination of the unarmed fighting style with the Restraining Strike maneuver really does surpass almost everything that you were getting from Tavern Brawler. The only thing you get from it that you're not getting from the new UA (other than the +1 STR) is proficiency with improvised weapons.

That's a thought, though. Could you make the argument that, while your fists are not weapons, you could use them as "improvised" weapons, so that the Tavern Brawler feat lets you use your bare fists for other weapon-dependent abilities, like two-weapon or sneak attack? That maybe makes the investment of the TB feat not sting so much...

GlenSmash!
2019-11-11, 01:52 PM
Duergar Rune Knight can use it's Giant's Might to get to size large then Racial Enlarge to get to size Huge. Thus it can grapple Gargantuan creatures. The ild rune lets you toss restrain one creature per short rest without using your hands, so you are free to grapple some more.

Rangers can now be surprisingly good single classed grapplers with the new fighting style and double proficiency on Athletics checks.