On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

[Gandariel]

Hylgia mentioned a couple times that she's ready to Plane Shift away at the first sign of danger, therefore avoiding death if the gods decide to unmake the universe.

However, this creates some complications.
If this is possible, since this is not the first time the gods create a dnd-like world (loki complains about this one being *another* fantasy tropes world), it should mean that every new "cycle" some high level characters manage to survive destruction, and presumably enter the next one.

We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?

[Peelee]

5 gold says that Inevitables hunt down stragglers that escaped. Because why not?

[The MunchKING]

My question is how much "rumbling" will she actually get, versus "all the threads of reality just got pulled, all of you sitting in hard vacuum now"?

Will she have enough advanced warning TO Plane Shift out of there?

[The Aboleth]

My personal headcanon is that once the world is unmade, all creatures/individuals quickly start to lose their physical forms as the quiddities that composed them are likewise becoming "unraveled" or "separated." Thor mentions mortals are made with quiddities from each color...presumably during the "unraveling" of the Snarl's prison, the combined colors that make up mortals are also separated and returned to their respective pantheons.

It's probably not a perfect theory (I haven't tried too hard to poke holes in it), but to me it explains why plane-shifted mortals don't survive from world to world. Which is a shame, because I'd really love a Laser-Snail cameo!

[Schroeswald]

Hylgia mentioned a couple times that she's ready to Plane Shift away at the first sign of danger, therefore avoiding death if the gods decide to unmake the universe.

However, this creates some complications.
If this is possible, since this is not the first time the gods create a dnd-like world (loki complains about this one being *another* fantasy tropes world), it should mean that every new "cycle" some high level characters manage to survive destruction, and presumably enter the next one.

We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?

Dead, they're all dead because it takes quite a while to wait for the Snarl to calm down, and even the people who could have made it through that are all dead after 2000+ years on this world.




Oh and even if they aren't they're busy not knowing what's going on, or being selfish and hiding, or being evil lazy bastards and hiding, or being forced to be stuck somewhere, or doing other important things (coincidentally that's what all but at most 15 of the high-level characters in the word are doing).

[The Pilgrim]

Hylgia mentioned a couple times that she's ready to Plane Shift away at the first sign of danger, therefore avoiding death if the gods decide to unmake the universe.

However, this creates some complications.
If this is possible, since this is not the first time the gods create a dnd-like world (loki complains about this one being *another* fantasy tropes world), it should mean that every new "cycle" some high level characters manage to survive destruction, and presumably enter the next one.

We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?

Plane shifting away doesn't makes you inmune to the effects of aging. Given the interim period, any character who has managed to plane shift away, will be dead of old age before the Gods roll the next world.

[Ron Miel]

I don't recall anything said about an interim period. Why would there be one? Wouldn't the gods make a new world ASAP to contain the Snarl?

[Peelee]

I don't recall anything said about an interim period. Why would there be one? Wouldn't the gods make a new world ASAP to contain the Snarl?

Third panel from the end (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html).

[Ron Miel]

Okay, fair enough, but who says the interim period is long enough to age someone to death?

[Yirggzmb]

Okay, fair enough, but who says the interim period is long enough to age someone to death?

I think it's mostly just an assumption. However, it's an assumption based on the fact that the interim period is long enough to potentially kill any gods who don't have enough energy stored up. It's probably a safe bet to figure that any period of time long enough to totally drain a god is probably longer than any humanoid's natural lifespan.

[EyethatBinds]

Plane shifting away doesn't makes you inmune to the effects of aging. Given the interim period, any character who has managed to plane shift away, will be dead of old age before the Gods roll the next world.

Except when you travel to any timeless plane, such as the Astral plane. Once you return to a plane with normal time, depending on DM, you advance to the age you would have been if you stuck around, which is basically the same.

[Fyraltari]

Plane Shifting to avoid the end of the world requires knowledge of the coming end of the world. Since the Gods keep the existence of the Snarl a secret, it would really rare for anyone to be in the know except for the high priests present when the vote is cast (assuming the Snarl doesn't escape first) which would mean that only those high priests who had Plane Shift prepared would be able to escape and their resêctive patrons would probably forbid them to mess with their next creation.


And really would they want to? The new world would be so very different from theirs they'd be considered some eldritch monster by evryone on it.

[Gandariel]

Re:Interim period

Planes where time goes much slower exist, right? As do immortal creatures

[BaronOfHell]

Perhaps it explains why there exists planes such as the ranch dressing one? I.e. leftovers from previous worlds (who do not remember what happened since now they're outsiders and have had their memories wiped)?

[Morquard]

"They die of old age" is an easy way out, but what if a whole family (or multiple) planeshifts? They build their own demi-plane, have kids, marry, have more kids, have grandkids, and so on.

And planeshifting doesn't require you to know the world ends. Those families of mages might have plane-shifted away to avoid constant nagging neighbors that disturb their study. Or a million other reasons.

But yes, maybe some of the eldritch horrors are in fact remnants from previous worlds (who either don't remember it because they're just descendants) or have gone mad in the meantime. Or fully remember it, but can't make any use fo that knowledge, because the new world works on totally different principles. Or maybe once the new reality is made, they die because the new laws of reality don't support them.

[Peelee]

Except when you travel to any timeless plane, such as the Astral plane. Once you return to a plane with normal time, depending on DM, you advance to the age you would have been if you stuck around, which is basically the same.


Re:Interim period

Planes where time goes much slower exist, right? As do immortal creatures


"They die of old age" is an easy way out, but what if a whole family (or multiple) planeshifts? They build their own demi-plane, have kids, marry, have more kids, have grandkids, and so on.

And planeshifting doesn't require you to know the world ends. Those families of mages might have plane-shifted away to avoid constant nagging neighbors that disturb their study. Or a million other reasons.

Oh hey look a bunch of problems that can all be solved by "Inevitables hunt them down." :smallamused:

[woweedd]

Hm...You know, I wonder if this explains why Heretera, Ganonron, and Jepheton came from: No one knows them other then the fiends because they aren't FROM this world. They're from some other D&D themed world. Funnily enough, if so, that kinda proves Xykon wrong: it's possible they died to the gods destroying the world, which means they weren't "chumps without the cajones to stay in the game". No way to solve that.

[Peelee]

Hm...You know, I wonder if this explains why Heretera, Ganonron, and Jepheton came from: No one knows them other then the fiends because they aren't FROM this world. They're from some other D&D themed world. Funnily enough, if so, that kinda proves Xykon wrong: it's possible they died to the gods destroying the world, which means they weren't "chumps without the cajones to stay in the game". No way to solve that.

Counterpoint: Xykon is largely unknown, despite being a phenomenally powerful sorcerer lich.

I think a world without the internet or wired communications systems just have more difficulty disseminating information to the masses.

[woweedd]

Counterpoint: Xykon is largely unknown, despite being a phenomenally powerful sorcerer lich.

I think a world without the internet or wired communications systems just have more difficulty disseminating information to the masses.
True enough, but Ganonron was apparently an interdimensional conqueror of some description. You'd think someone like Tarquin would know about the guyu. And, for that matter, Hertera seems like Xykon's exact kind of people.

[Fyraltari]

True enough, but Ganonron was apparently an interdimensional conqueror of some description. You'd think someone like Tarquin would know about the guyu. And, for that matter, Hertera seems like Xykon's exact kind of people.

What makes you think Tarquin doesn’t know Ganonron? And Xykon had never opened a history book in his life.

[Schroeswald]

What makes you think Tarquin doesn’t know Ganonron. And Xykon had never opened a history book in his life.
I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon has never opened a book in his life.

[Fyraltari]

I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon has never opened a book in his life.

History book, said I.

[Schroeswald]

History book, said I.

Oh I was just adding on to that point.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon has never opened a book in his life.

On the one hand, I don't want to burst your bubble, but on the other.... A significant part of the plot is entirely dependent on Xykon having read an especially difficult to read book.:smallwink:

[Schroeswald]

On the one hand, I don't want to burst your bubble, but on the other.... A significant part of the plot is entirely dependent on Xykon having read an especially difficult to read book.:smallwink:
Blah blah, I suck at memory and whatever, I bet he could count all the books he’s read on one hand, in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html).

He learned to read by having an intelligence of 3+ and not being a barbarian.

EDIT: Wait no, he read another book, ignore my link and just say one hand.

[Riftwolf]

On the one hand, I don't want to burst your bubble, but on the other.... A significant part of the plot is entirely dependent on Xykon having read an especially difficult to read book.:smallwink:

Counterpoint: He didn't start reading it till after he died.

[Aidan]

So, this is going to sound a little strange, but, assuming the world and all mortals are made up of the strands of reality provided by the multiple pantheons, would the mortals simply seize to exist? If the Gods are "collecting" the strands of reality, if they just decided to "pull" them back, wouldn't the physical bodies of all mortals vanish, with their souls then moving to the after life?
I'm just shooting in the dark over here

[Schroeswald]

Counterpoint: He didn't start reading it till after he died.
Sure, uh-huh, that's exactly what I meant.

[Peelee]

Counterpoint: He didn't start reading it till after he died.

Counter-counter-point: IIRC, he seemed familiar with Rich Baker's work while he was still alive.:smalltongue:

[Schroeswald]

Counter-counter-point: IIRC, he seemed familiar with Rich Baker's work while he was still alive.:smalltongue:

Counter-counter-counter-point: Eh, not really
Also he totally knew the dude, knowing the work of one of your coworkers who exclusively seems to talk about this work seems pretty easy without needing to ever read it.
I know you're joking here, yada-yada-yada

[The Pilgrim]

"They die of old age" is an easy way out, but what if a whole family (or multiple) planeshifts? They build their own demi-plane, have kids, marry, have more kids, have grandkids, and so on.

Then they become Outsiders, and have their mind wipped like all other outsiders.

[Peelee]

Counter-counter-counter-point: Eh, not really
Also he totally knew the dude, knowing the work of one of your coworkers who exclusively seems to talk about this work seems pretty easy without needing to ever read it.
I know you're joking here, yada-yada-yada
Counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: Though really there should be one more "counter" in there.
He was in high school, so he had at least read quite a few textbooks up to that point.:smalltongue:

[The Pilgrim]

Counterpoint: He didn't start reading it till after he died.

After he died and became a Lich, gaining +2 Int and +2 Wis.

[Schroeswald]

Counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: Though really there should be one more "counter" in there.
He was in high school, so he had at least read quite a few textbooks up to that point.:smalltongue:

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: At least according to wikipedia in quite a few places grade retention is illegal or severely discouraged, maybe his school is like those places.

[Peelee]

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: At least according to wikipedia in quite a few places grade retention is illegal or severely discouraged, maybe his school is like those places.

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:

Xykon's schoolteachers all cast Protection From Law!

[Schroeswald]

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:

Xykon's schoolteachers all cast Protection From Law!

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:

Xykon didn't seem to know any casters.


HA!

I'm sure this argument can be debunked, I just want to see how many counters we can get

[Peelee]

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:

Xykon didn't seem to know any casters.


HA!


Marble counter: They just didn't tell him.

[The Pilgrim]

By the way, who strikes you as the person who has read fewer books, if any? Xykon the Sorcerer or Miko Mayazaki?

[Schroeswald]

By the way, who strikes you as the person who has read fewer books, if any? Xykon the Sorcerer or Miko Mayazaki?
Xykon, as seen by this "argument", I wouldn't be surprised if he read his first book after he died, Miko Miyazaki may have a lot of problems but I'm sure she at least picked up a book in school.

EDIT:Argue about Miko! Argue about Miko! Argue about Miko!

[Dr.Zero]

So, this is going to sound a little strange, but, assuming the world and all mortals are made up of the strands of reality provided by the multiple pantheons, would the mortals simply seize to exist? If the Gods are "collecting" the strands of reality, if they just decided to "pull" them back, wouldn't the physical bodies of all mortals vanish, with their souls then moving to the after life?
I'm just shooting in the dark over here

It might be like that.

Or it might be that they cast a special super uber godly spell "Dissolve reality" on a specific plane, and that returns the reality hit by the super uber godly spell back to its quantistic 40 dimensions strings (which we cannot comprehend or imagine, and so the Gods kindly described them as normal strands for us) and collect this tiny strings, then working them back to "strands" with their big super uber godly loom, not differently from what we do when we recycle things[1].

In the latter case, if one is away from the plane where the super uber godly spell is casted, is safe. Like a sheet of paper who falls off from the garbage collecting truck and flies away, carried away by a sweet spring wind, while the other sheets of paper go to face their destiny at the recycling center.


[1] Honestly I'm not sure about fabric, but since wool is obtained starting from the quite short body hair of sheeps, and then we can get strands quite long, I think that might work when we recycle it, too. Anyway, about recycling I was thinking more of paper, honestly: minced, dissolved, and then used to create new sheets.

[Fyraltari]

Counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: Though really there should be one more "counter" in there.
He was in high school, so he had at least read quite a few textbooks up to that point.:smalltongue:

No, I don't think so. :smalltongue:
He was a lousy student.

[Morquard]

Then they become Outsiders, and have their mind wipped like all other outsiders.

I'm pretty sure that's not how one becomes an Outsider

[Resileaf]

I wouldn't be surprised if the gods had a demiplane somewhere where survivors of the previous world can chill out for the rest of their natural life with an understanding that they can't have children once they're there.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't be surprised if the gods had a demiplane somewhere where survivors of the previous world can chill out for the rest of their natural life with an understanding that they can't have children once they're there.

Only a third of the gods are Good, so that seems like pie-in-the-sky level optimism. Especially since we already know they kill everyone right off the bat to begin with.

[Emanick]

Only a third of the gods are Good, so that seems like pie-in-the-sky level optimism. Especially since we already know they kill everyone right off the bat to begin with.

In fairness, though I very much doubt it exists, the Good gods probably are capable of creating just such a demiplane by themselves. (My rule of thumb is that if a level 30 wizard could do it, a god probably also could.) They might even do it, if there were survivors who asked nicely.

[Mightymosy]

Is there actual reason Hilgya's would work, really?

I thought when gods unmade the world to make a new world, that this meant the entire story world, not just the planet where the OotS population works.
Because the plane of gold or elemental water or ranch dressing or 45° slopes all belong to D&D world number 1223, don't they? And when the gods next make Star Wars themed LARP world, there will be small planets of hats where players can travel to, and not demi plains and pocket dimensions made by wizards.

[The Aboleth]

Is there actual reason Hilgya's would work, really?

I thought when gods unmade the world to make a new world, that this meant the entire story world, not just the planet where the OotS population works.
Because the plane of gold or elemental water or ranch dressing or 45° slopes all belong to D&D world number 1223, don't they? And when the gods next make Star Wars themed LARP world, there will be small planets of hats where players can travel to, and not demi plains and pocket dimensions made by wizards.

It's a little ambiguous, but it seems like certain places (such as the Astral Plane) are always around, even between worlds. In theory, a mortal could travel to one of those places and attempt to wait until the next world is formed, but it's unlikely they would survive long enough to succeed in that goal.

My reasoning: Thor explains in Strip #1138 that the Outer Planes are composed of ideas "so powerful, they became places" and that even the Gods themselves are shaped by beliefs. Whether those places remain in-between worlds is up for debate, but presumably the Gods keep their personal domains from world-to-world (even if the particulars of those domains might change a bit based on what the new mortals believe in World #3,765,912,400,756).

Thor also mentions in Strip #1144 that there is an "interim period" where the Gods have to wait until the Snarl calms down before beginning another World; while he doesn't specify where they hide, the fact he calls the Astral Plane "a place to stash stuff" in #1138 suggests they might hide there (perhaps even in their respective domains).

[Resileaf]

Only a third of the gods are Good, so that seems like pie-in-the-sky level optimism. Especially since we already know they kill everyone right off the bat to begin with.

I'd be surprised if the evil gods were so petty that a handful of mortals in some demiplane would get their ire.

[RatElemental]

Some of the outer afterlife planes have still alive mortals living on them in some versions of the DND cosmology. If those are around in oots, they've gotta come from somewhere.

[deuterio12]

It's a little ambiguous, but it seems like certain places (such as the Astral Plane) are always around, even between worlds. In theory, a mortal could travel to one of those places and attempt to wait until the next world is formed, but it's unlikely they would survive long enough to succeed in that goal.


Why not? As Xykon pointed out, true immortality isn't that hard with a bit of magic. The afterlife scheme only nets you a tiny bit of extra time in the grand scene of things, but by becoming a lich or something else you get to stay around forever.


I'd be surprised if the evil gods were so petty that a handful of mortals in some demiplane would get their ire.

Maybe some evil gods get complacent.

Those are the ones that get starved out of souls.

You don't get to remain a god for a zillion of cycles for leaving loose ends, in particular when there's new gods keep popping up either because Thor/Loki knocked up some goddess or mortals ascending, but soul supply remains limited, and since there's less than a hundred gods on sight after said zillion cycles, it means only the most efficient gods get to eat enough souls to survive to the next cycle.

[Schroeswald]

Maybe some evil gods get complacent.

Those are the ones that get starved out of souls.

You don't get to remain a god for a zillion of cycles for leaving loose ends, in particular when there's new gods keep popping up either because Thor/Loki knocked up some goddess or mortals ascending, but soul supply remains limited, and since there's less than a hundred gods on sight after said zillion cycles, it means only the most efficient gods get to eat enough souls to survive to the next cycle.
Why are you talking about efficiency and complacency here? What about any of these gods makes you think that they would need to murder a handful of souls in a demi-plane as opposed to just like, letting them die when they get too old? And why is efficiency brought in here? Maybe it’s gods with broad enough portfolios to consistently get people to care about them across worlds, which based on the portfolios we’ve seen among these gods, makes sense.

[Riftwolf]

An oft-overlooked rule with Plane Shift is that you need an attuned focus to travel to another plane (and its a different focus for each plane). If a particular plane doesn't fit the next Material Planes campaign setting, the Gods could cut them out and make sure no one from an excluded plane can get a focus for the new Material Plane and vice versa.
Edit: after rechecking the rule, it doesn't use the word 'attunement' in the SRD; the plane is dictated by size and metal of the focus. Point still stands, however, if the Gods make a new metal on the new Material Plane that didn't exist in previous worlds.

[The Aboleth]

Why not? As Xykon pointed out, true immortality isn't that hard with a bit of magic. The afterlife scheme only nets you a tiny bit of extra time in the grand scene of things, but by becoming a lich or something else you get to stay around forever.


My theory, as posted earlier in this thread:


My personal headcanon is that once the world is unmade, all creatures/individuals quickly start to lose their physical forms as the quiddities that composed them are likewise becoming "unraveled" or "separated." Thor mentions mortals are made with quiddities from each color...presumably during the "unraveling" of the Snarl's prison, the combined colors that make up mortals are also separated and returned to their respective pantheons.

It's probably not a perfect theory (I haven't tried too hard to poke holes in it), but to me it explains why plane-shifted mortals don't survive from world to world. Which is a shame, because I'd really love a Laser-Snail cameo!

If this were the case, becoming a lich or something wouldn't matter as you'd still be "unraveled" when the Gods unmake the world.

EDIT: Also, Xykon never says achieving immortality "isn't that hard." He just said it was possible, and listed some ways people could do it.

[Dr.Zero]

Why are you talking about efficiency and complacency here? What about any of these gods makes you think that they would need to murder a handful of souls in a demi-plane as opposed to just like, letting them die when they get too old? And why is efficiency brought in here? Maybe it’s gods with broad enough portfolios to consistently get people to care about them across worlds, which based on the portfolios we’ve seen among these gods, makes sense.

Indeed, if anything at all, a God, for example, should be only pleased to have one of his followers surviving the massacre, to spread his word (of the God, not of the follower) in the next world. If that happened to Odin, with a 18 level cleric moving around a newly created world, I bet the barbarians wouldn't have thought magic was for fools.

(One might argue that other gods are interested to kill a cleric of an opposing god, but that stands true even with the material plane intact, and yet they don't go around smithing clerics of opposing deities).

The most probably answer to this OOTS's version of Fermi's paradox is that 1) very few survived every time: usually if you feel all shaking, you think of an eartquake and, if you are in the open, you wait it stops, don't planeshift out of fear that the material plane is being destroyed; 2) the few ones are mostly long dead; 3) the very little few (if any) descendants would feel completely out of place in the next world.

(I mean, If I'd survived to a extinction level event, flying away with my super rocket, and my descendants were living an acceptable life out in the deep space with an hologram deck programmed with a very promiscuous version of Lt. Deanna Troy, would they care to return to an earth populated by intelligent giant cockroaches? I'd bet no.)

[Draconi Redfir]

easy workaround: If someone exists on World A, and plane-shift out before it's destruction, then somehow survives until the creation of world B, they're simply not going to be able to plane-shift onto world B. they'd just kind of be locked out of it because they weren't built for that world, like trying to put a key into the wrong lock.

It might be possible for someone in world B to open a gate for the plane-shifter to pass through, but this would likely require knowledge about the shifter, which may be impossible to get.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Possibly the Snarl calming down is related to the world's remainders.

The Snarl is obviously a continuity/thematic snarl and so if the setting continues the snarl continues trying to destroy it. If everyone plane shifts to a new plane and the material plan is destroyed, the new plane is probably the same world as far as the Snarl problem goes. Or any solution where the world is only technically destroyed will fail to handle the snarl problem.

We also have reason to believe that the snarl isn't actually interested in destroying the physical world, as there is a spare material world in the snarl; no continuity/thematic problems in an empty world.

[Dion]

The Snarl is obviously a continuity/thematic snarl and so if the setting continues the snarl continues trying to destroy it.

If the snarl is a metaphor for the conflict and contradictions eventually destroy any fictional world, then I’d argue that plane shift will work!

There’s nothing to stop tiny groups from continuing on in isolation, even after the larger work has fallen apart.

For example, your group can continue adventuring in Middle Earth, even though JRRT has died and his estate would shut down an organized effort with trademark and copyright laws. But as long as you keep it to your own little demiplane, the snarl won’t shut you down.

Heck, your My Little Pony Lycan Vampires named Cersei and Daenerys can use the force on platform 9 3/4 to fight both Spider Man and Superman. As long as you can find at least one other person to game with you (or at least read your slash fiction), your desperate little demiplane of weirdness can live on the rest of your life, long after My Little Pony goes off the air and the last poor child named Daenerys turns 18 and legally changes her name.

[Fyraltari]

For example, your group can continue adventuring in Middle Earth, even though JRRT has died and his estate would shut down an organized effort with trademark and copyright laws. But as long as you keep it to your own little demiplane, the snarl won’t shut you down.

*coughs*
https://shinygames.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/the-one-ring.jpghttps://diw2l4zrbsp3w.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/TOR_Core_Standard-Edition-Cover-copy-3.jpg
*coughs*

[deuterio12]

Indeed, if anything at all, a God, for example, should be only pleased to have one of his followers surviving the massacre, to spread his word (of the God, not of the follower) in the next world.


No, they wouldn't.

Because the gods aren't moving a single finger to evacuate the mortals from the doomed world.

Thor could easily open a Gate to the other planes and evacuate the dwarves and other mortals. But instead nope, the gods are all "In case of doubt, KILL EVERYBODY!"

The Snarl must be kept secret.

The mortals must believe the gods supreme above everything.

And more important the mortals can't be allowed to realize they don't actually need the gods, their souls already go to their aligned planes by default anyway.

Any mortals that are allowed to survive with knowledge of the Snarl and that the gods aren't that supreme and that it's perfectly possible to live in other places besides whatever ball of dirt the gods come up with, that's just asking for trouble in the long run for the gods very survival.

[The Aboleth]

No, they wouldn't.

Because the gods aren't moving a single finger to evacuate the mortals from the doomed world.

Thor could easily open a Gate to the other planes and evacuate the dwarves and other mortals. But instead nope, the gods are all "In case of doubt, KILL EVERYBODY!"

The Snarl must be kept secret.

The mortals must believe the gods supreme above everything.

And more important the mortals can't be allowed to realize they don't actually need the gods, their souls already go to their aligned planes by default anyway.

Any mortals that are allowed to survive with knowledge of the Snarl and that the gods aren't that supreme and that it's perfectly possible to live in other places besides whatever ball of dirt the gods come up with, that's just asking for trouble in the long run for the gods very survival.

Once again, Followers of the Bramble is the webcomic you are reading. Here at Order of the Stick, the Gods have very clearly explained they do make real attempts to save their followers before the Snarl escapes; this time, however, the situation with the Gates (and now the Bet with Hel) makes that course of action a much more complicated matter than it otherwise (presumably) has been in the past.

Thor, specifically, is also having Durkon enact a plan that will save EVERYONE on this world and FOREVER contain the threat of the Snarl--so at the very least that makes one God who clearly cares for mortalkind.

As far as "The Snarl must be kept secret at all costs," that's demonstrably false considering Thor was quick to "bend the rules" to let Minrah in on the Snarl situation (yes, she sort of had an idea already, but she clearly lacked vital information that Thor didn't particularly care to press her on). Yes, the Snarl isn't common knowledge, but that also doesn't mean that all the Gods are going out of their way to purge Knowledge of the Snarl from existence.

[deuterio12]

Once again, Followers of the Bramble is the webcomic you are reading. Here at Order of the Stick, the Gods have very clearly explained they do make real attempts to save their followers before the Snarl escapes; this time, however, the situation with the Gates (and now the Bet with Hel) makes that course of action a much more complicated matter than it otherwise (presumably) has been in the past.

No idea what that followers of the bambe is, but in Order of the Stick Thor was talking about saving the mortal's juicy souls, which otherwise would be destroyed by the Snarl. A terrible waste of perfectly fine food.



Thor, specifically, is also having Durkon enact a plan that will save EVERYONE on this world and FOREVER contain the threat of the Snarl--so at the very least that makes one God who clearly cares for mortalkind.

In order of the stick, the Snarl is a threat to the gods themselves, so of course the gods would love a way of dealing with it for good.

Still a plan B for evacuating the mortals in case the Snarl breaks free yet again wouldn't hurt-Wait, it would, that's why Thor and the other gods aren't bothering with it.



As far as "The Snarl must be kept secret at all costs," that's demonstrably false considering Thor was quick to "bend the rules" to let Minrah in on the Snarl situation (yes, she sort of had an idea already, but she clearly lacked vital information that Thor didn't particularly care to press her on). Yes, the Snarl isn't common knowledge, but that also doesn't mean that all the Gods are going out of their way to purge Knowledge of the Snarl from existence.

In order of the stick Minrah herself points out it's forbidden by their religion to even ask why there's a whole pantheon of missing gods.

If Thor's sharing some info, it's because a) time is running out for this one shot at locking out the eldritch abomination that could slay Thor himself so he's taking a gamble or/and b)he's drunk as usual.

[Theshipening]

The Snarl must be kept secret.

The mortals must believe the gods supreme above everything.

And more important the mortals can't be allowed to realize they don't actually need the gods, their souls already go to their aligned planes by default anyway.

Any mortals that are allowed to survive with knowledge of the Snarl and that the gods aren't that supreme and that it's perfectly possible to live in other places besides whatever ball of dirt the gods come up with, that's just asking for trouble in the long run for the gods very survival.

Maybe, just maybe, the gods do it because if people knew about the Snarl, every single wannabe BBEG would be doing what Xykon is currently doing, or some other variation of ‘use it to get their way’ ?

Ah yes, all those poor mortals believe the gods supreme and worshiping them at all occasions. Except Roy, who doesn’t care about the gods beyond "they created the world and are very powerful I guess. Nifty." and isn’t surprised when he goes to LG afterlife without being claimed by a god. Haley never prays either. Let’s not talk about Belkar. Elan worships Banjo. The dwarves know they don’t need to worship the gods, just to die with honor.

Gods are more of a “Become our clerics and we give you magic powers. Pray to us and maybe we, über-powerful beings that we are, will lend you some help, and you get to go to our private after-life when you die.” Deal rather than “Pray or get annihilated.”

[Dr.Zero]

Once again, Followers of the Bramble is the webcomic you are reading.

I wouldn't dismiss Deuterio12's points so quickly.
Mortals are the equivalent of cattle for them, indeed. When living, milked for nice believing juice. When died, slowly transformed in food (I think the author himself talked about "batteries", not sure though).

Granted, good Gods are still better than Evil, since they treat their cattle in a nicer fashion[1]. But nonetheless...

[1] One, indeed, might wonder why Evil gods don't treat their followers a little better. You know, Hel, if, instead of torturing them, you gave them beer and some nice cloud caves tree free, maybe dwarves wouldn't be so hostile to the idea of ending up with you. [2]

[2] Otoh, one could argue that Hel is not really capable of self determination, and no God is really able to do that, they are just projection of what people think they should be, puppets driven by common belief, which is apparently what Loki says, and common belief is that Hel must mistreat souls.

[Quartz]

We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?


We already know: they don't survive the intermission. Remember Thor explaining about having to wait until the Snarl quietened down and some godlings not surviving and thus his fears for The Dark One?

[Dr.Zero]

The real sad thing of this debate? That we will never know if H's plan was going to work. :D

(On a side note, I liked the metaphor discussion about the Snarl and the counter argument about "as long as there is one playing it, then...", it was very interesting. Being myself a fan of the idea "at the end we will get the cutscene showing the players starting another game", it fits with my tastes)

[The Aboleth]

I wouldn't dismiss Deuterio12's points so quickly.
Mortals are the equivalent of cattle for them, indeed. When living, milked for nice believing juice. When died, slowly transformed in food (I think the author himself talked about "batteries", not sure though).

Granted, good Gods are still better than Evil, since they treat their cattle in a nicer fashion[1].

I am not dismissing their claims, I simply find them deeply flawed and deuterio12 has a history of boiling the comic down to the simplest (and most negative) explanation devoid of any nuance.

Yes, mortals are "food" for the Gods, but unless you're about to take a hardline stance against any being ever needing food as a means to literally survive, then the argument is a lot more complicated than "mortals are just cattle." Mortals, unlike cattle, have been shown to negatively affect the Gods--Odin is essentially brain-damaged because the Northerners in the last world decided (as in, seemingly made the free-willed choice, despite it being against Odin's personal health/interests) that magic was to be shunned. So while yes, mortals ultimately end up as "food," there is clearly some level of risk involved for the Gods everytime they make a new world.

So again, my problem with deuterio12's stance is that it removes any nuance and boils down, ultimately, to "I want the Gods to not eat at all and just wither away to nothingness." Which, fine, is an opinion one can have, but it also ignores the fact* that it would leave the Snarl unchecked causing mortals to not even get the benefit of an afterlife. So their impassioned defense of The Plight of Mortals actually leads to the worst possible scenario for mortals. It's contradictory.

*Based on what we know so far...obviously the world-within-the-rift complicates things, but until we learn more this is the info we are operating under

EDIT:

Maybe, just maybe, the gods do it because if people knew about the Snarl, every single wannabe BBEG would be doing what Xykon is currently doing, or some other variation of ‘use it to get their way’ ?

Ah yes, all those poor mortals believe the gods supreme and worshiping them at all occasions. Except Roy, who doesn’t care about the gods beyond "they created the world and are very powerful I guess. Nifty." and isn’t surprised when he goes to LG afterlife without being claimed by a god. Haley never prays either. Let’s not talk about Belkar. Elan worships Banjo. The dwarves know they don’t need to worship the gods, just to die with honor.

Gods are more of a “Become our clerics and we give you magic powers. Pray to us and maybe we, über-powerful beings that we are, will lend you some help, and you get to go to our private after-life when you die.” Deal rather than “Pray or get annihilated.”

Also, I second all of this.

EDIT 2:


In order of the stick, the Snarl is a threat to the gods themselves, so of course the gods would love a way of dealing with it for good.

Still a plan B for evacuating the mortals in case the Snarl breaks free yet again wouldn't hurt-Wait, it would, that's why Thor and the other gods aren't bothering with it.

Case in point: Here's is an example of that "most simple/negative" interpretation. Plan B is exactly what they're saying the Gods aren't doing--safely evacuating mortals' souls before the Snarl devours them--but because the Gods need mortal souls to survive deuterio12 has an issue with it and so their stance becomes "The Gods are 100% selfish." Except...what are they supposed to do, not "eat" at all and literally kill themselves? Ok, but then goodbye all mortals, too, so....*shrug*

[ShinigamiKenji]

My guess is that plane shifters eventually get memory-wiped and eventually die of old age at whatever plane they end up.

First, killing everybody may cause hassles both for Good gods (moral conundrums and such) and for Evil ones (less pawns for their schemes). You also need to check every plane for every living being. This doesn't seem practical when they already memory-wipe Outsiders, so why not extend it to all creatures? Much less trouble and less likely to start petty fights between gods for deaths and such.

Second, TDO has been building up power for (presumably) centuries, from many thousands of goblins and related races. If gods with more followers and whole pantheons backing them up (as Thor said here) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) can't survive the interim period, it's likely that no mortal can. Also, the gods are hyperbolic at everything, so the bureaucracy in deciding a new world and the time for each god to decide on something to create probably is as well.

If my theory is correct, it's quite sad for Kudzu, since he'll get memory-wiped and will never remember his father :smallfrown:

[woweedd]

I am not dismissing their claims, I simply find them deeply flawed and deuterio12 has a history of boiling the comic down to the simplest (and most negative) explanation devoid of any nuance.

Yes, mortals are "food" for the Gods, but unless you're about to take a hardline stance against any being ever needing food as a means to literally survive, then the argument is a lot more complicated than "mortals are just cattle." Mortals, unlike cattle, have been shown to negatively affect the Gods--Odin is essentially brain-damaged because the Northerners in the last world decided (as in, seemingly made the free-willed choice, despite it being against Odin's personal health/interests) that magic was to be shunned. So while yes, mortals ultimately end up as "food," there is clearly some level of risk involved for the Gods everytime they make a new world.

So again, my problem with deuterio12's stance is that it removes any nuance and boils down, ultimately, to "I want the Gods to not eat at all and just wither away to nothingness." Which, fine, is an opinion one can have, but it also ignores the fact* that it would leave the Snarl unchecked causing mortals to not even get the benefit of an afterlife. So their impassioned defense of The Plight of Mortals actually leads to the worst possible scenario for mortals. It's contradictory.

*Based on what we know so far...obviously the world-within-the-rift complicates things, but until we learn more this is the info we are operating under

EDIT:


Also, I second all of this.

EDIT 2:


Case in point: Here's is an example of that "most simple/negative" interpretation. Plan B is exactly what they're saying the Gods aren't doing--safely evacuating mortals' souls before the Snarl devours them--but because the Gods need mortal souls to survive deuterio12 has an issue with it and so their stance becomes "The Gods are 100% selfish." Except...what are they supposed to do, not "eat" at all and literally kill themselves? Ok, but then goodbye all mortals, too, so....*shrug*
Does that make Odin's condition the goldy equivalent of heart disease.

[The Aboleth]

Does that make Odin's condition the goldy equivalent of heart disease.

Something like that, though our food isn't actively trying to give us heart disease (I don't think...we shouldn't rule out the possibility that this is our cattles' ultimate plan. The cows are undoubtedly the masterminds, if true!).

[Schroeswald]

Does that make Odin's condition the goldy equivalent of heart disease.

I'd say its closer to really bad food poisoning, because Hel's condition seems closer to heart disease, she has too much of an unhealthy food after all.

[woweedd]

I'd say its closer to really bad food poisoning, because Hel's condition seems closer to heart disease, she has too much of an unhealthy food after all.
See, given that Hel's problem comes from a nutritional deficit, i'd say she has, for lack of a better term, God Diabetes.

[The Aboleth]

See, given that Hel's problem comes from a nutritional deficit, i'd say she has, for lack of a better term, God Diabetes.

I'd say it's more like a vitamin deficiency. Diabetes is the result of a bodily organ (the pancreas) not producing insulin to regulate the body's blood sugar level. Hel, on the other hand, is specifically not receiving an essential part of her "diet." She's lacking Vitamin C(leric).

[HorizonWalker]

I'd say it's more like a vitamin deficiency. Diabetes is the result of a bodily organ (the pancreas) not producing insulin to regulate the body's blood sugar level. Hel, on the other hand, is specifically not receiving an essential part of her "diet." She's lacking Vitamin C(leric).

The idea of Hel having God Scurvy works for me; real scurvy starts as gum disease, sure, but then all your scars open back up, like some sorta fantasy plague. It's cool as hell, if also more grisly than the bear.

[RatElemental]

I have no backing for this, but the answer to me seems to be really simple: The gods do nothing about mortals who escape to other planes.

Some of them probably plane shift back (because they were on the other plane for other reasons when reality ended) and oops, reality ended while you were gone. One more soul for the good gods to mourn and the evil ones to mourn not getting to use as a battery.

The rest probably sit around on the plane they were on just like the outsiders, very concerned about all the souls that just came through from everywhere all at once, or confused because no souls have come through in ages and no one who's gone to the material plane to see what's going on has come back. They're probably dead by old age the time it's time to update (and mind wipe) the outsiders for the next iteration and even if they're not the gods are already at it, what's one more mind wipe update?

[Dion]

Not to be that guy, but technically... the gods DO have a plan to shift everyone to the outer planes before destroying the world.

[The Aboleth]

Not to be that guy, but technically... the gods DO have a plan to shift everyone to the outer planes before destroying the world.

You're not being "that guy"; that's what everyone except deuterio12 has been saying. I said it myself further up thread (see bolded part, in particular):



Case in point: Here's an example of that "most simple/negative" interpretation. Plan B is exactly what they're (deuterio12) saying the Gods aren't doing--safely evacuating mortals' souls before the Snarl devours them--but because the Gods need mortal souls to survive deuterio12 has an issue with it and so their stance becomes "The Gods are 100% selfish." Except...what are they supposed to do, not "eat" at all and literally kill themselves? Ok, but then goodbye all mortals, too, so....*shrug*

[Dion]

I wouldn't dismiss Deuterio12's points so quickly.
Mortals are the equivalent of cattle for them, indeed. When living, milked for nice believing juice

I’m not happy with this characterization..

People live, the believe, they worship, they die, their souls eventually get absorbed into some outer plane. But living, believing, worshipping, dying, and being absorbed into an outer plane might just be a thing that just... happens. We don't need to assume gods are controlling it, much less architecting it.

We don’t have evidence they’re cracking souls open and sucking out on soul juice like bone marrow.

And before we go all “first law of thermodynamics” to say that since the gods have some benefit, that means mortals must suffer some loss. There’s no “three laws of belief-o-dynamics” that says soul power is a zero sum energy..

But even if you choose a personal head canon where it is zero sum, that doesn’t mean gods are harming mortals. Plants get energy from the sun. Nobody accuses plants of sucking the sun dry like some kind of evil light vampire. When the sun goes out in 7 billion years (or whatever), nobody is going to accuse plants of being greedy and using up all the sun as food.

(Actually, if the internet still exists, I’m sure someone will say that. And someone else will engage in an argument with that person. But that’s not my point.)

(Well, engaging in a pointless argument against a silly interpretation of the universe is actually my point. I’ll show myself out.)

[Draconi Redfir]

If you're desperate for some justification for the God's using worshipers as food, think of it like this. They're providing souls a service in the form of an afterlife. Infinite pleasures, reunions with long-lost loved ones, eternal youth, a lifespan of thousands of years, and the chance to gain knowledge and enlightenment beyond what they could even dream about in life.

From Roy's mountain, it seems to suggest that it's a Soul's choice on when to ascend to the top of the mountain, reach enlightenment, and become one with the plane itself. Anyone can decide "i'm not going to do that", but since you're in this particular afterlife, you'll eventually probably want to ascend for one reason or another. Either because you're bored, the rest of your family has gone, you need new meaning in unlife, or you just feel like it's time. Nothing is stopping you from not going, but you will most likely choose to go sooner or later. Can't speak for the more evil afterlives though, who knows for them.

But what's the alternative? Mortals die, and then their souls just pop out of existence like they were never even born?

I know which one i'd choose if given the choice.

[Dion]

If you're desperate for some justification for the God's using worshipers as food...

Do they use the word “food” in the comic? Or Is that just an invention of someone on the forum?

[ParadoxPotentia]

Do they use the word “food” in the comic? Or Is that just an invention of someone on the forum?

I don't think anyone called souls "food" in universe, but it's easy to get the impression that, at least to the evil gods, that's what they'd think of it as, because the "we used to have a pyramid that explained this better, but I don't think we use that anymore"[1]? That's a reference to the "food pyramid" for mortal nutrition, and "souls" is one of the four groups on it for gods. I don't think souls are actually consumed by gods in a way that is harmful to the soul, but I do think that it's fair to say that, at the minimum, souls are food for gods in the same way that apple trees are for mortals.

[1] OTS1144: "That's Jack's Fault" . I can't post links yet, but that should be citation enough, right?

EDIT: In short, it is an invention of someone on the forum, but it's also a perspective you can reach from the comic, and I think this is one of the places people found evidence towards that conclusion from.

[Dion]

I do think that it's fair to say that, at the minimum, souls are food for gods in the same way that apple trees are for mortals..

I’m happy to agree that gods get nourishment from souls in the same way plants get nourishment from the sun.

But I’m uncomfortable with assuming that “nourishment” means “food”. I don’t think we’ve seen a god “eat” a soul.

We know gods get nourishment from souls in the afterlife, and we know that souls in the afterlife are absorbed into the plane that matches their alignment. But it seems like a big jump from there to say that gods somehow eat the souls like apples, anymore than plants “eat” the sun.

[Aidan]

Thor was talking about saving the mortal's juicy souls, which otherwise would be destroyed by the Snarl. A terrible waste of perfectly fine food.

If Thor was just concerned with saving the souls, then why wouldn't he just order all the dwarves to kill one another and then join the God's hoping to destroy the world?

Yes the Snarl is a threat to the God's, this world more than ever due to Redcloaks plan, but half of the Northern pantheon is still willing to have the possibility their lives ending. If these God's were just self-preserving douches, they would have all voted in favor of ending the world, but they didn't.

So maybe the God's trust or care for the mortals, otherwise they wouldn't risk it all for the chance to see if the mortals can fix it

[ParadoxPotentia]

I’m happy to agree that gods get nourishment from souls in the same way plants get nourishment from the sun.

But I’m uncomfortable with assuming that “nourishment” means “food”. I don’t think we’ve seen a god “eat” a soul.

We know gods get nourishment from souls in the afterlife, and we know that souls in the afterlife are absorbed into the plane that matches their alignment. But it seems like a big jump from there to say that gods somehow eat the souls like apples, anymore than plants “eat” the sun.
[Agreed]. I'm saying "gods don't eat the souls" any more than you eat the apple tree. But Gods eat/consume/absorb "something the soul produces" in the same way that Humans eat "something the apple tree produces" and Plants eat "something the sun produces", and a lot of the "gods view humanity as cattle" people's posts read nearly the same if you assume gods eat "the milk" rather than "the cows". (and the milk is something the cow produces.) Now, I'm not confident I'm right, but that's the baseline concept- that souls are a food source abet not a food.

I don't think the gods view humanity as cattle, but I do think it's fair to assume a soul has a production cap (Hel clearly believes that sufficient quantity will be enough to put her in a position of "top dog" next time) and that each soul can only produce a finite amount of nutrition, and therefore it would not surprise me if some gods see mortals and souls as like cattle, even if they live on the milk and not the meat.

[Draconi Redfir]

i think it's safe to assume that most gods don't view mortals as cattle simply by virtue of how many different kinds of worlds they've created. From fantasy, to cyberpunk, to steampunk, to living snack foods, to every other genre of world in-between.

If they only cared about mortals as cattle, then it'd be easier to just copy-paste the same setting over and over again with very few alterations. But they're not, they're creators, artists, and leaders. They want to create art, stories, and adventures for their subjects, they want the world to be interesting and fun, challenging and exiting.

Mortals produce what a god needs to survive yes, but they seem much more interested in the creation of, maintaining of, and adventures of said mortals then anything else.

[Dr.Zero]

I’m not happy with this characterization..

People live, the believe, they worship, they die, their souls eventually get absorbed into some outer plane. But living, believing, worshipping, dying, and being absorbed into an outer plane might just be a thing that just... happens. We don't need to assume gods are controlling it, much less architecting it.


You seem to forget a very tiny detail: mortals and material plane are created by gods exactly as they are.




We don’t have evidence they’re cracking souls open and sucking out on soul juice like bone marrow.






And before we go all “first law of thermodynamics” to say that since the gods have some benefit, that means mortals must suffer some loss. There’s no “three laws of belief-o-dynamics” that says soul power is a zero sum energy..

But even if you choose a personal head canon where it is zero sum, that doesn’t mean gods are harming mortals. Plants get energy from the sun. Nobody accuses plants of sucking the sun dry like some kind of evil light vampire. When the sun goes out in 7 billion years (or whatever), nobody is going to accuse plants of being greedy and using up all the sun as food.


You seem to make some very strange comparisons.

Aside the fact that sun exists before plants, and is not a creation of plants for the sole purpose of granting them food (and maybe entertainment), surely enough I can admit plants take part of their nourishment from sun.
So?
I take part of my nourishment from steaks, so, since that is the same that plants do with sun, this makes the cow killed less of a cattle?


Now, let's compare sun and plants, cattle and humans, and mortals and gods, would you?

Where the cattle live? In a corral, aka a space created by us to make them live there and then give us food.
Where the mortals live? On the material plane, aka a space created by gods to make them live there and give them food. Checked.
Where the sun "lives"? In the universe, aka a space not created by the plants. Unchecked.

How we deal with the cattle? We actively breed them, actively milk them, eat their carcasses.
How the gods deal with mortals? They actively create them, actively (through diffusing the belief in them via their clerics) milk them for belief, eat their souls. Close enough.
How the plants deal with sun? They don't create and neither breed it, can't do actively anything to it, and passively get the "milk" it diffuses, underlining the "passively". Unchecked, again.

Long story made short: if your point is that everything alive must feed itself, sure, I agree, I've even said that the good gods do that in a quite nice fashion; if then, with some strange comparison, you want to prove that creatures created with the exact purpose to feed someone else are not cattle, well, good luck, because you'll need it.

[Draconi Redfir]

How the gods deal with mortals? They actively create them, actively (through diffusing the belief in them via their clerics) milk them for belief, eat their souls. Close enough.

gods don't "Eat" souls though, they never have. Souls just kind of linger in the afterlife providing passive power while enjoying the afterlife's existance, until the ultimately choose to or reach enlitenment and merge with the afterlife itself. at no point is a soul on thor's plate.

[Dion]

you want to prove that creatures created with the exact purpose to feed someone else are not cattle, well, good luck, because you'll need it.

Who said mortals are created with the purpose of feeding the gods? I missed that comic.

Is rain created to slake your thirst?

[The Pilgrim]

Now, let's compare sun and plants, cattle and humans, and mortals and gods, would you?

Where the cattle live? In a corral, aka a space created by us to make them live there and then give us food.
Where the mortals live? On the material plane, aka a space created by gods to make them live there and give them food. Checked.
Where the sun "lives"? In the universe, aka a space not created by the plants. Unchecked.

How we deal with the cattle? We actively breed them, actively milk them, eat their carcasses.
How the gods deal with mortals? They actively create them, actively (through diffusing the belief in them via their clerics) milk them for belief, eat their souls. Close enough.
How the plants deal with sun? They don't create and neither breed it, can't do actively anything to it, and passively get the "milk" it diffuses, underlining the "passively". Unchecked, again.

Long story made short: if your point is that everything alive must feed itself, sure, I agree, I've even said that the good gods do that in a quite nice fashion; if then, with some strange comparison, you want to prove that creatures created with the exact purpose to feed someone else are not cattle, well, good luck, because you'll need it.

1) Do the Cattlemen kill the Cattle to eat it? Yes.
Do the Gods kill the Mortals to eat them? No.

2) Do Cattle choose to get slaughtered and eaten by it's owner? No.
Do Mortals choose to worship a God and go to it's demiplane in the Afterlife instead of the default plane that correlates with his Alignment? Yes.

3) Do Cattle choose it's owner? No.
Do Mortals choose their God, if any, and can freely change Religion? Yes.

4) Can Cattle freely avoid to become food for it's owner? No.
Can Mortals freely avoid to become "food" for a God? Yes. A Mortal that refuses to worship any God, does not fuel the Gods and goes to the default plane correlated to his alignment.

5) Do the life of Cattle have any further purpose than to become food for their owners? No.
Do the life of a Mortal have any further purpose than to become food for the Gods? It can, as a Mortal can choose not to be fuel for the Gods and give his existence another purpose.

6) In short, Do Cattle have Free Will? No.
Do Mortals have Free Will? Yes.

7) Speaking of Free Will... Do Cattlemen have Free Will? Yes.
Do Gods have Free Will? Not really, as their actions are limited by what Mortals believe about them.

8) Because, in the end... can the belief of Cattle change the Cattlemen? No.
Can the belief of Mortals change the Gods? Yes.

[Dr.Zero]

1) Do the cattlemen kill the Cattle to eat it? Yes.
Do the Gods kill the Mortals to eat them? No.


They could make them immortal.
So, yeah, "died of old age" to give us our soul, is exactly that.



2) Can the belief of Cattle change the Cattlemen? No.
Can the belief of Mortals change the Gods? Yes.

3) Do Cattle choose to get slaughtered and eaten by it's owner? No.
Do Mortals choose to worship a God and go to it's demiplane in the Afterlife instead of the default plane that correlates with his Alignment? Yes.

4) Do Cattle choose it's owner? No.
Do Mortals choose their God, if any, and can freely change Religion? Yes.

5) Can Cattle freely avoid to become food for it's owner? No.
Can Mortals freely avoid to become "food" for a God? Yes. A Mortal that refuses to worship any God, does not fuel the Gods and goes to the default plane correlated to his alignment.

6) Do the life of Cattle have any further purpose than to become food for their owners? No.
Do the life of a Mortal have any further purpose than to become food for the Gods? It can, as a Mortal can choose not to be fuel for the Gods and give his existence another purpose.

7) In short, Do Cattle have Free Will? No.
Do Mortals have Free Will? Yes.

8) Speaking of Free Will... Do Cattlemen have Free Will? Yes.
Do Gods have Free Will? Not really, as their actions are limited by what Mortals believe about them.
[/quote]

This is another interesting point... since has 0 correlation with what being a cattle is.
Dear gods, I didn't think it was so hard, but here we go: cattle are creatures kept, bred, milked and killed for food. Full stop.

You seem to think that I said: "Mortals are cows."

No, I said that for the gods mortals are cattle, and that fit the definition.
But maybe you need some counter argument to your own, so let's enter the madness.

Let's call to help mr Lovercraft and his De La Poer family. They captured and enslaved humans keeping them in a secret cave, breeding them (and interbreeding them, up to make them deformed and quadrupedial), eating them. Were they cattle to the De La Poer?
Was the first captured generation, which was presumably sentient and completely human, cattle for them?

[Dion]

They could make them immortal.

Which comic is that in?

[Theshipening]

You seem to think that I said: "Mortals are cows."

No, I said that for the gods mortals are cattle, and that fit the definition.
But maybe you need some counter argument to your own, so let's enter the madness.

Let's call to help mr Lovercraft and his De La Poer family. They captured and enslaved humans keeping them in a secret cave, breeding them (and interbreeding them, up to make them deformed and quadrupedial), eating them. Were they cattle to the De La Poer?
Was the first captured generation, which was presumably sentient and completely human, cattle for them?
Well, you did say ‘Mortals are cows’. Sheeps and chicken aren’t cattle, because cattle refers specifically to bovines and cows kept by humans.

This metaphor being like that one time the gods took the mortals from their home plane, captured them and forced worship ?
Unless you mean the De La Poer created the first generation from scratch, then gave them all the choice to become ‘food’ (even if that’s not quite true since gods don’t eat mortals any faster than they ‘dissolve’ into the planes, as they would anyway), free to roam the world either way ?

[The Pilgrim]

They could make them immortal. So, yeah, "died of old age" to give us our soul, is exactly that.

If they made Mortals immortal, they would have created Immortals, not Mortals. Mortals, by definition, are mortal.

Do the Gods kill the Mortals, though? No. That means Gods aren't ranchers, but opportunistic scavengers at most.


You seem to think that I said: "Mortals are cows."

You actually did. But I have been already ninja'd on that.


Dear gods, I didn't think it was so hard, but here we go: cattle are creatures kept, bred, milked and killed for food. Full stop.

Since Gods don't kill mortals, they don't fit your definition of "cattle".

And since Mortals don't fit the 8 points I mentioned in my previous message, they don't fit the common definition of what constitutes "cattle", either.


Let's call to help mr Lovercraft and his De La Poer family. They captured and enslaved humans keeping them in a secret cave, breeding them (and interbreeding them, up to make them deformed and quadrupedial), eating them. Were they cattle to the De La Poer?
Was the first captured generation, which was presumably sentient and completely human, cattle for them?

Do the humans kept as cattle by De La Poer have a choice? No. As you have pointed out, they were captured and enslaved. Mortals, on the other hand, get to choose. Mortals aren't tamed animals.


This is another interesting point... since has 0 correlation with what being a cattle is.

Yes, it has. Because by definition, cattle are tamed, domesticated animals, breed for food. Mortals aren't tamed neither domesticated, neither are breed by the Gods or are forced to become food. Mortals have free will, can survive on their own without the Gods, and can choose to not help Gods or provide them with any upkeep if they want. Mortals can even choose to neglect the Gods and make them dissapear, if they wanted. Odin got turned into an idiot by the Mortals of the former World.

I have totally wrecked your analogy. Denial will not help you.

[The MunchKING]

They could make them immortal.
So, yeah, "died of old age" to give us our soul, is exactly that.

Have we seen that OotS Gods CAN make people immortal?

[Dion]

Have we seen that OotS Gods CAN make people immortal?

They can’t even choose the color of their own hair.

[RatElemental]

Have we seen that OotS Gods CAN make people immortal?

Actually, we have! Mortals that ascend to godhood become immortal, and most of those have done so with the help and support of existing gods.

Doesn't really solve the originally posed question though.

[The MunchKING]

Actually, we have! Mortals that ascend to godhood become immortal, and most of those have done so with the help and support of existing gods.

They need a whole pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) as far as Thor said...

[Draconi Redfir]

Dear gods, I didn't think it was so hard, but here we go: cattle are creatures kept, bred, milked and killed for food. Full stop.

okay, so you've just proven that the Mortals aren't cattle then, because the gods do absolutely none of that.

The mortals are not "Kept" anywhere, unless you count the planet as a whole. They're free to roam and travel as they wish, even to other planes of existence entirely. If they had enough time, they would probably develop space-travel technology, and we have nothing saying the gods would stop them from leaving the planet.

The mortals are not bred. They are free to choose their mates as they wish, and they are free to not mate at all. If every mortal on the planet decided to just never have children, there would be nothing the gods could do about it, because the mortals have free will.

The Mortals are not milked, there is no active process of going to a mortal to receive any nutrition. Mortals just passively provide it just by believing the gods exist. This is as similar to "Milking" as me typing these words to you is "Killing" me by using up my time.

And the Mortals are not killed for food. The gods do not actively kill their worshipers, they have no control over HOW a mortal dies. If they did, we wouldn't see arguments between Hel and the other gods on whether or not a Dwarf died honorably. they would just "Know", because they actively murdered the Dwarves. But they didn't, so they don't.

the mortals are not like cattle. Full stop.

[woweedd]

Keep in mind: the Gods MADE mortals. Yes, they eventually end your existence to fuel themselves, but they are also responsible for said existence. From dust to dust. Such is the way. Since mortal life could not exist without the gods, or the gods survive without mortals, it’s more like a symbiotic relationship. They create us and, in exchange, when we die, they take us out. Otherwise, they would starve and the world would die for the last time. It sucks that we must die, but the gods have no other option, unless you want your world to be the last. As a Good person, I cannot condone thinking my individual consciousness being maintained is more important then the thousands of lives that would be lost, or never exist, should the gods falter. The circle must be maintained.

[Dr.Zero]

okay, so you've just proven that the Mortals aren't cattle then, because the gods do absolutely none of that.

The mortals are not "Kept" anywhere, unless you count the planet as a whole. They're free to roam and travel as they wish, even to other planes of existence entirely. If they had enough time, they would probably develop space-travel technology, and we have nothing saying the gods would stop them from leaving the planet.

The mortals are not bred. They are free to choose their mates as they wish, and they are free to not mate at all. If every mortal on the planet decided to just never have children, there would be nothing the gods could do about it, because the mortals have free will.

The Mortals are not milked, there is no active process of going to a mortal to receive any nutrition. Mortals just passively provide it just by believing the gods exist. This is as similar to "Milking" as me typing these words to you is "Killing" me by using up my time.

And the Mortals are not killed for food. The gods do not actively kill their worshipers, they have no control over HOW a mortal dies. If they did, we wouldn't see arguments between Hel and the other gods on whether or not a Dwarf died honorably. they would just "Know", because they actively murdered the Dwarves. But they didn't, so they don't.

the mortals are not like cattle. Full stop.

I wonder why I keep debating here.
Sure, the fact that this is a High Fantasy setting changes everything and mortals are not cattle for Gods. Suit yourself.
I had enough of this.

[brian 333]

The point of debate is to propose and defend points of view others may not share with the goal of everyone learning and, perhaps, coming away with a new understanding of the complex issues being discussed.

It is not to browbeat the other guy into adopting your point of view. When debaters refuse to consider the merits of the points presented by the other, even when they disagree with them, both sides lose.

The only way to win a debate is to challenge the other side to create better defenses for their arguments. These are not attacks against the person, but against the arguement, and it is a mistake to take such things personally. When you find yourself reacting emotionally rather than logically it is time to step away.

Don't bring your feelings to a debate and they won't get hurt. And who knows? You might just learn something, even if it's just a better way to say what you want to say.

[Dion]

they eventually end your existence to fuel themselves,

I’m curious what makes you think this is true?

[TRH]

I’m curious what makes you think this is true?

They depend on the souls of the dead for power. That was the cause of this book's main conflict. They don't directly kill you (most of the time), but they created worlds full of mortals, i.e., people who must eventually die, for this purpose.

[woweedd]

I’m curious what makes you think this is true?
Well, they feed off your corpse, as it were.

[Draconi Redfir]

They depend on the souls of the dead for power. That was the cause of this book's main conflict. They don't directly kill you (most of the time), but they created worlds full of mortals, i.e., people who must eventually die, for this purpose.

but not STRICTLY for this purpose. If their only concern was food, then we wouldn't have seen snack-food world, gritty cyberpunk world, talking animal world, and gritty cyber-talking animal world.

Their creation of worlds is more for creativity fun and explorations then it is for food.

[The Pilgrim]

They depend on the souls of the dead for power. That was the cause of this book's main conflict. They don't directly kill you (most of the time), but they created worlds full of mortals, i.e., people who must eventually die, for this purpose.

They also need the living for power. As the main conflict of this book shows. Hel is dying not for lack of dead souls, but for lack of living worship.

And, given that the Gods and the Outer Planes themselves are the product of the ideas of the living, I don't think the Gods were the ones that invented the "dead-souls-fuel-the-outer-planes" cycle.

[Dion]

And, given that the Gods and the Outer Planes themselves are the product of the ideas of the living, I don't think the Gods were the ones that invented the "dead-souls-fuel-the-outer-planes" cycle.

Some people on this forum seem to believe gods are omnipotent, including creating all of the laws under which the universe operates.

In other words, some people believe the gods invented mortals, and souls, and the absorption of souls into the outer planes.

Under this viewpoint, mortal die and their souls are eventually absorbed because gods designed and constructed the laws or the universe this way at their own discretion, and are capable of changing the fundamental laws that control the universe at their discretion.

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah. What I can't figure out is, if the Gods are truly omnipotent and designed all the rules of the Universe, then why they set up things in a way that allows mere mortals to change the hair of a God, or their IQ level, and that a mere dispute between Gods can create an unstoppable deicide eldritch abomination.

As I see it, the Gods are just ultra-powerful Outsiders with the capability of creating a world in the Material Prime and set it with mortal things. But that's about it. Anything in the Outer Planes is out of their scope, including the laws of the Universe. They can mindwipe the outsiders because the Gods can cast very powerful magic, not because they can change the rules of the Universe.

In my head canon, all the worlds the Gods have created operated under the d20 rules. They change the style of the setting, and perhaps the level of self-awareness of the inhabitats of the world regarding the game rules. But that's about it.

[Fyraltari]

Some people on this forum seem to believe gods are omnipotent, including creating all of the laws under which the universe operates.

In other words, some people believe the gods invented mortals, and souls, and the absorption of souls into the outer planes.

Under this viewpoint, mortal die and their souls are eventually absorbed because gods designed and constructed the laws or the universe this way at their own discretion, and are capable of changing the fundamental laws that control the universe at their discretion.

They're wrong, though. The gods are explictly incapable of doing many things, as seen with Loki's frustration and Odin's mental state, or just the existence of the Snarl.

Also, Redcloak's info dump in SoD doesn't make sense if the gods can change the rules as they please, but you may not believe in its accuracy.

[Dion]

As I see it, the Gods are just ultra-powerful Outsiders with the capability of creating a world in the Material Prime and set it with mortal things. But that's about it.

That agrees with my personal interpretation of the comic as well.

[RatElemental]

Yeah. What I can't figure out is, if the Gods are truly omnipotent and designed all the rules of the Universe, then why they set up things in a way that allows mere mortals to change the hair of a God, or their IQ level, and that a mere dispute between Gods can create an unstoppable deicide eldritch abomination.


Who ever said the gods were omnipotent?



As I see it, the Gods are just ultra-powerful Outsiders


So the gods are gods. I agree.

[The Pilgrim]

Who ever said the gods were omnipotent?

Well, monotheistic traditions present their Gods as omniscient and omnipotent, as opposed to polytheistic traditions, whose Gods are just very powerful humans (or anthropomorphic animals) with superpowers. But I suppose this is not the asnwer you are looking for. :smalltongue:

Okey, some people in this thread take as granted that the Gods created the Mortals as mortal on purpose. Like if they could make inhabitants of the Prime Material Plane immortal. As far as I know only pure outsiders are immortal, and they are popped by the Outer Planes, not the Gods.

[KorvinStarmast]

Who ever said the gods were omnipotent? Certainly not Rich, creator of OoTSverse. :smallsmile:

[Riftwolf]

The problem with immortal worshippers is the Gods would get little/no Dedication, and that seems very important to Gods as Hel's plan would mean (in the short term) a tidal wave of dead dwarves would override her lack of Worship.
It's also worth mentioning Thor tells us the souls power the afterlives, not the Gods themselves. While the Gods might get some power from the Outer Planes, its not quite the same as 'All the Gods eat souls and want to destroy the world for a free ticket to Chompytowne'.

[Dion]

The problem with immortal worshippers is the Gods would get little/no Dedication

The problem with a universe where literally everything is immortal and nothing at all can ever die under any circumstances and there's really no risk to anyone is... ehh... that's not a comic I'd particularly want to read.

I mean, imagine an immortal Roy who's lived billions of years and knows that can't ever die. He doesn't care if the snarl eats this world, because the snarl can't hurt him or anyone he cares about, and he'll just do something else after the gods build the next world. Imagine an immortal Thor that can't ever die. He doesn't care if the snarl eats this world, because the snarl can't hurt him or anyone he cares about, and he'll just build another world.

Also, Miko would still be alive, because it would have been literally impossible for Xykon to kill her, because she is immortal. Blech.

[Riftwolf]

OK fine. It's ONE of the problems with Immortal Worshippers.

[Dion]

OK fine. It's ONE of the problems with Immortal Worshippers.

Lol. Also, think of how funky everything would smell if all the yeast lived forever!

[Riftwolf]

Lol. Also, think of how funky everything would smell if all the yeast lived forever!

How much worship can the Gods get off yeast? Assuming it's non-sentient yeast, or to give it its proper title, 'yeast'.

[Dion]

How much worship can the Gods get off yeast? Assuming it's non-sentient yeast, or to give it its proper title, 'yeast'.

Without yeast there is no beer! And without beer, the gods themselves would not survive.

(I’m not sure who in this thread came up with the strange idea that if the gods truly loved their creations, they would make them everlasting. But if we follow the idea to its end, and agree all living things should be made immortal, it makes sense that the greatest and most humble creation of the gods, yeast, would be among the undying.)

[woweedd]

Without yeast there is no beer! And without beer, the gods themselves would not survive.

(I’m not sure who in this thread came up with the strange idea that if the gods truly loved their creations, they would make them everlasting. But if we follow the idea to its end, and agree all living things should be made immortal, it makes sense that the greatest and most humble creation of the gods, yeast, would be among the undying.)
Funnily, by that logic, one could question why anyone bothers making anything.

[Dion]

Funnily, by that logic, one could question why anyone bothers making anything.

It’s almost as if I were using intentionally bad logic.

[woweedd]

It’s almost as if I were using intentionally bad logic.

I know. I was trying to add to your point.

[Dion]

I know. I was trying to add to your point.

Thank you!

Ok, to tie this back to the actual thread... I’ve also assumed the gods create primarily because they enjoy creation.

And... this is stretching... I also assume that if it were in the gods power to allow shards of their creations to live on after the global shutdowns, most would allow it.

[Draconi Redfir]

you think the plane of earth even has the organic life required to sustain other organic life like three dwarves? Since it's the plane of earth, it probably doesn't have plants, water, or animals. I suppose Hylgia can create food and water with cleric powers but... that seems a bit tiresome, and a bit of a risk. What if she somehow gets cut off from Loki when he retreats into the higher planes to escape the snarl? Plus if anything happens to her, Durkon's mom and Kudzu are pretty much screwed.

are there any other planes better suited for supporting life?

[Emanick]

you think the plane of earth even has the organic life required to sustain other organic life like three dwarves? Since it's the plane of earth, it probably doesn't have plants, water, or animals. I suppose Hylgia can create food and water with cleric powers but... that seems a bit tiresome, and a bit of a risk. What if she somehow gets cut off from Loki when he retreats into the higher planes to escape the snarl? Plus if anything happens to her, Durkon's mom and Kudzu are pretty much screwed.

are there any other planes better suited for supporting life?

Ysgard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ysgard) would work quite nicely. It's a Chaotic Good/Neutral plane, and it has rivers, continents, the works. I believe it has plenty of fields, although I don't see them mentioned in the Wikipedia article. So it probably has ample plant life.

I don't think Hilgya would mind it. It might be too Chaotic for Sigdi, but I imagine she'd adjust.

[Dion]

you think the plane of earth even has the organic life required to sustain other organic life like three dwarves?

*IF* I were running the game, I’d probably rule that all of the inner planes would be unmade along with the material plane.

So, I’d argue that plane shifting to the plane of earth (or blue cheese ranch dressing) wouldn’t save Higya and company regardless. I’d advise them to visit one of the outer planes instead.

But, I’m not running the game...

[Aidan]

*IF* I were running the game, I’d probably rule that all of the inner planes would be unmade along with the material plane.

So, I’d argue that plane shifting to the plane of earth (or blue cheese ranch dressing) wouldn’t save Higya and company regardless. I’d advise them to visit one of the outer planes instead.

But, I’m not running the game...

Obviously as you said that's only how you would do it, but do we know if the inner planes would survive the world being destroyed? We have been told that outsiders have their memories wiped, but Thor was speaking specifically about Devas, and the only source I can think of is Belkar thinking Roy could hide with Celia, but he's hardly an authority on how the planes work. Is there anything to suggest that they wouldn't be destroyed?

[Fyraltari]

Obviously as you said that's only how you would do it, but do we know if the inner planes would survive the world being destroyed? We have been told that outsiders have their memories wiped, but Thor was speaking specifically about Devas, and the only source I can think of is Belkar thinking Roy could hide with Celia, but he's hardly an authority on how the planes work. Is there anything to suggest that they wouldn't be destroyed?

The fact that the Snarl is incapable of interplanar travel?

[Forum Explorer]

Put me down for the time interval just requires too much power to survive. If full out Gods, beings considered to be more immortal and much more powerful than a Lich, often die in the passage, then I don't see how a Lich could survive either.

Though I mean, it determines on the fluff. After all, some stories have things like undead needing something to keep fueling them, if that thing is vengeance, blood, whatever. In a Lich's case 5e has that be souls, but if you wanted something different you could say they need magic. And when the world is torn apart and the rules of reality are reset they may very well lose access to their magic.

[Dion]

do we know if the inner planes would survive the world being destroyed?

We can prove they will be destroyed using mathematical induction!

Suppose the inner planes would *not* be destroyed. Since we know some worlds are cyberpunk, that means that at least one of the inner planes would be “the elemental plane of laser light shows”.

That means that all subsequent fantasy worlds would have laser light shows elementals, which means there would be an inner plane of “the elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals”.

Think of this: The elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals.

But we haven’t seen elementals made of dancing elementals made of lasers. If such an awesome thing existed, we would have seen it. Therefore they don’t exist, therefore all inner planes are destroyed.

[Fyraltari]

We can prove they will be destroyed using mathematical induction!

Suppose the inner planes would *not* be destroyed. Since we know some worlds are cyberpunk, that means that at least one of the inner planes would be “the elemental plane of laser light shows”.

That means that all subsequent fantasy worlds would have laser light shows elementals, which means there would be an inner plane of “the elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals”.

Think of this: The elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals.

But we haven’t seen elementals made of dancing elementals made of lasers. If such an awesome thing existed, we would have seen it. Therefore they don’t exist, therefore all inner planes are destroyed.

Counterpoint: the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), natch.

[Dion]

Counterpoint: the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), natch.

Ah... that is a good point. That’s clearly left over from a world with BBQ chicken wings.

It’s the eternal “BBQ Chicken Wings” vs “Laser Light Show” debate. We’ll probably never solve it.

On a more serious note, if the question is “do some planes survive”, the answer is yes, definitely the outer planes, and perhaps the inner planes as well.

If the question is “can mortals survive on those planes”, the answer is... maybe?

I think Xykon could survive in his fortress on the astral plane, and mid-to-high level clerics with a god’s help survive as well. But most folks probably wouldn’t make it very long.

If the question is “would anyone survive to see the next world?” No, I doubt it. I guess Xykon might; if your adventurous party is unlucky enough to stumble over an epic level lich sleeping on the astral plane, I suppose it doesn’t matter if it’s from this world or a few million years old. But since there don’t seem to be few thousand epic level liches crawling around, I’m going to guess they don’t wake up very much.

[Quizatzhaderac]

That’s clearly left over from a world with BBQ chicken wings.Maybe from the sentient movie theater snack universe?

I guess Xykon might; if your adventurous party is unlucky enough to stumble over an epic level lich sleeping on the astral plane, I suppose it doesn’t matter if it’s from this world or a few million years old. But since there don’t seem to be few thousand epic level liches crawling around, I’m going to guess they don’t wake up very much. I see two possibilities.

1) There's some kind of cleanup of the astral plane. Maybe Hel gets to come by personally to collect her soul (Xykon is an evil northerner). Maybe these extra planar things fade away (like the dark one might) after centuries. Maybe the Snarl (when in rampage mode) can see the fortress since it's basically a tiny shard of the material plane.

2) There are thousands of liches around, but the astral plane is big enough that it's unlikely for anyone to find them or for them to find the new material plane.

[The Pilgrim]

Maybe from the sentient movie theater snack universe?
I see two possibilities.

1) There's some kind of cleanup of the astral plane. Maybe Hel gets to come by personally to collect her soul (Xykon is an evil northerner). Maybe these extra planar things fade away (like the dark one might) after centuries. Maybe the Snarl (when in rampage mode) can see the fortress since it's basically a tiny shard of the material plane.

2) There are thousands of liches around, but the astral plane is big enough that it's unlikely for anyone to find them or for them to find the new material plane.

3) Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) Inevitables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inevitable_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)).

[Riftwolf]

3) Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) Inevitables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inevitable_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)).

Could/has Xykon beat a Marut? Is there an epic Inevitable if a problem can't be solved by adding more Maruts?

Edit: looking at the stat block, Xykon could probably walk it. It's only SLA that hurts undead is Chain Lightning... Which liches are immune to.

[Peelee]

Could/has Xykon beat a Marut? Is there an epic Inevitable if a problem can't be solved by adding more Maruts?

Edit: looking at the stat block, Xykon could probably walk it. It's only SLA that hurts undead is Chain Lightning... Which liches are immune to.

Of only there existed gods who could make Greater Maruys or something.

Also, in billions of worlds, its unlikely some one like Xykon hasn't come up. Odds are they can handle those guys.

[The Pilgrim]

Could/has Xykon beat a Marut? Is there an epic Inevitable if a problem can't be solved by adding more Maruts?

Edit: looking at the stat block, Xykon could probably walk it. It's only SLA that hurts undead is Chain Lightning... Which liches are immune to.

They can also deliver Sonic damage. Which, as we know, is the ultimate damage type in the OOTS world.

Anyway, the point is that Mechanus has self-replicating gear capable of automatically generate solutions for all anomalities and transgressions. Like mortals who avoid getting killed when the world gets destroyed. Sure, they can live off for a bit in an Outer Plane, but if they also resort to making themselves immortal, that's two transgressions too many for the LN outer plane.

[Psyren]

We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?

Dude - even gods starve to death between upheavals. No way are a bunch of mortals making it.

[woweedd]

Dude - even gods starve to death between upheavals. No way are a bunch of mortals making it.
Also, i'm like 60% sure we've seen at least three of them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). Given the extreme scarcity of Epic-level characters in this world, I wouldn't be surprised if those three were leftovers, condemned to the Lower Planes at one point or another.

[Kelenius]

I don't think there's extreme scarcity. Order of the scribble were all epic, and so is Xykon.

[Peelee]

I don't think there's extreme scarcity. Order of the scribble were all epic, and so is Xykon.

That's seven people. Out of hundreds of millions of people.

I don't think you're making your point as well as you think.

[Emanick]

Dude - even gods starve to death between upheavals. No way are a bunch of mortals making it.

I don't think this follows. Gods have no way of obtaining most kinds of sustenance during the interval between worlds. Mortals on the planes, on the other hand, should have no trouble obtaining food if they have access to Plane Shift.

There's likely nothing stopping a mortal for living for decades (or centuries or longer, if they're a particularly long-lived race) in, say, Arborea, or from having mortal children and grandchildren. There is, on the other hand, something stopping newly-risen gods from being able to exist between worlds for long.

[Draconi Redfir]

as i said before, i can see two possibilities as to why we don't see characters from worl A popping in to planet B.

option A: Due purely to the merit of being on an outer plane, people or families of people gradually turn into outsiders such as Fetchlings, Elderan, Fey, or the like just over time. they just become the new outsiders of the next world, and the gods include them in the outsider mind-wipe.

option B; and my personal favorite. People or families of people who leave planet A, find themselves "locked" out of planet B and unable to port in. They're trying to use their own house key to enter someone else's home, it's just not going to work. They might be able to enter the new world if someone on that world knew about them and opened the door, but that would require the members of the new world both knowing how to plane-shift, and somehow stumbling across the person / family of people in the vast infinity of the planes. it'd be like looking for a needle in a haystack when there is one needle in an infinite number of haystacks that are all infinitely deep.

so game-changing epic-level characters might be out there, we just can't find them, and they can't get in without us finding them.

[Quizatzhaderac]

That's seven people. Out of hundreds of millions of people.

I don't think you're making your point as well as you think.It's enough people to contradict Woweedd's comment. Severn people a generation for thousands of years is enough for three epic, evil, arcane spell-casters to have happened.


I don't think this follows. Gods have no way of obtaining most kinds of sustenance during the interval between worlds. Mortals on the planes, on the other hand, should have no trouble obtaining food if they have access to Plane Shift. Mortals are the source of sustenance for gods, if a significant numbers of mortals survive the gods wouldn't starve.

[Aidan]

It's enough people to contradict Woweedd's comment. Severn people a generation for thousands of years is enough for three epic, evil, arcane spell-casters to have happened.

Mortals are the source of sustenance for gods, if a significant numbers of mortals survive the gods wouldn't starve.

I'd bet that any small pockets of survival are more than likely two things,

1-Very small communities at the largest, so even if they were all worshipping, let's say Thor, they would be hardly affecting his diet, after all if your starving and eat 10 bits of rice, it's not going to affect the fact that you're starving.

2-Although I must admit this is a bit more speculative, I think that many mortals who escape from the material plane likely aren't going to be clerics, there are probably some high level wizards who just move to the Astral plane, doing research or whatever it is they do.

So if anyone does survive, my guess is that by the time that the world is remade, they will either be liches and other undead creatures, or the small communities will vanish due to a lack of genetic diversity.

[Emanick]

Mortals are the source of sustenance for gods, if a significant numbers of mortals survive the gods wouldn't starve.

I'm implicitly assuming here that only a very, very small fraction of mortals survive, probably no more than one out of every million and almost certainly no more than one out of every hundred thousand.

Have you ever tried to survive on 1/100,000th of your typical diet? There isn't a meaningful difference between that and no food at all.

Of course, in a world where hundreds of thousands of mortals have Plane Shifted away from the Material Plane by the time the gods destroy it, things might be different. But we have no reason to think that has ever happened.

[Peelee]

It's enough people to contradict Woweedd's comment.

I would call 0.000006% of the people "extreme scarcity."

ETA: I should note that number is for one hundred million. Which means it's the low end, and may well be higher.

[Kelenius]

That's seven people we know. And all of them were fairly secretive in their dealings (as in, didn't announce to the world "EPIC CHARACTER HERE, DOING EPIC STUFF"), except perhaps for Soon founding the Azure City and Xykon taking over it, so it's entirely possible there's more. It would be trivial for the IFCC to locate three epic-level casters, given that the only qualifications required are 1) evil 2) dead 3) epic 4) spellcaster. No tapping into previous world necessary.

[woweedd]

That's seven people we know. And all of them were fairly secretive in their dealings (as in, didn't announce to the world "EPIC CHARACTER HERE, DOING EPIC STUFF"), except perhaps for Soon founding the Azure City and Xykon taking over it, so it's entirely possible there's more. It would be trivial for the IFCC to locate three epic-level casters, given that the only qualifications required are 1) evil 2) dead 3) epic 4) spellcaster. No tapping into previous world necessary.
A. None of the three strike me as subtle. B. I'll note, there actually seems to have been a 5th qualification: Namely, specializing in one of three areas of arcane magic V lacks. Conjuration, Necromancy, and spontaneous casting. Not sure how committed they were to that, but i'd shocked if it wasn't intentional on the IFCC's part.

[Peelee]

That's seven people we know. And all of them were fairly secretive in their dealings (as in, didn't announce to the world "EPIC CHARACTER HERE, DOING EPIC STUFF"), except perhaps for Soon founding the Azure City and Xykon taking over it, so it's entirely possible there's more. It would be trivial for the IFCC to locate three epic-level casters, given that the only qualifications required are 1) evil 2) dead 3) epic 4) spellcaster. No tapping into previous world necessary.

I don't disagree that they likely didn't need to tap into previous worlds. I do disagree that epic characters in general (not even limiting it to just casters) are not extremely scarce. Having even a hundred over 1,200 years among the entire population of the world that existed since then wiuld give a good choice of casters while still being extremely scarce.

[Kelenius]

I guess I should clarify then that when I said that there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, I meant "you can find one if you look for one", not "they are common among the population".


A. None of the three strike me as subtle. B. I'll note, there actually seems to have been a 5th qualification: Namely, specializing in one of three areas of arcane magic V lacks. Conjuration, Necromancy, and spontaneous casting. Not sure how committed they were to that, but i'd shocked if it wasn't intentional on the IFCC's part.

A) Do they, though? Xykon doesn't seem like a subtle person either, but he was largely unknown to the world for a very long time. In fact, I'm not even sure if his existence is common knowledge even after the fall of Azure City. For B) that's a good point - they were likely picked among other candidates for that reason, but it probably wasn't a requirement.

[Peelee]

I guess I should clarify then that when I said that there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, I meant "you can find one if you look for one"

Oh, I getcha. I appreciate it, that's even easier to dispute. Haley disagrees with you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)

[Kelenius]

Oh, I getcha. I appreciate it, that's even easier to dispute. Haley disagrees with you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)

She's looking specifically for clerics, and funnily enough, none of the epic characters that we know are clerics. And she doesn't say there are no clerics of that level - just that she doesn't think there are any.

[Peelee]

She's looking specifically for clerics, and funnily enough, none of the epic characters that we know are clerics. And she doesn't say there are no clerics of that level - just that she doesn't think there are any.

So there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, you can find one if you look for one, so long as it's not a cleric? That's a mighty specific argument there.

[Emanick]

So there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, you can find one if you look for one, so long as it's not a cleric? That's a mighty specific argument there.

To be fair, "you can find an epic level character if you look for one" is probably at least 11 times as likely to be true as "you can find an epic level cleric if you look for one." Perhaps moreso, since high level clerics may tend to end up running churches rather than continuing to adventure.

I should also point out that Haley isn't in a great position to know whether there are any level 17+ clerics in the world. That kind of information probably isn't terribly public, and her search for a cleric who could resurrect Roy mostly consisted of wandering around the wilderness and then talking to a few people in Greysky City (plus the Oracle detour, but Belkar obviously ruined that). If you teleported to all the major cities in the world and talked with well-connected people in each of them, maybe with a few bribes, then maybe you'd be in a better position to know the prevalence of high-level or epic characters.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think this follows. Gods have no way of obtaining most kinds of sustenance during the interval between worlds. Mortals on the planes, on the other hand, should have no trouble obtaining food if they have access to Plane Shift.

There's likely nothing stopping a mortal for living for decades (or centuries or longer, if they're a particularly long-lived race) in, say, Arborea, or from having mortal children and grandchildren. There is, on the other hand, something stopping newly-risen gods from being able to exist between worlds for long.

But would magic even work after the world is destroyed? I mean, lets just flat out say Clerical Magic is right out cause the gods wouldn't bother granting it, but how about Arcane Magic? After all it's rules and format may have varied from world to world by quite a bit.

[Resileaf]

I am under no impression that epic characters are common, but in all the time the world has existed, I don't see why it should be evident that epic characters are so rare that it's impossible to have found three evil casters. It's a self-aware D&D world, and no one ever questions that high level threats exist, so why is it so unbelievable that the casters used for the splice came from this one? Only a generation ago, the Order of the Scribble was an active group of epic adventurers, surely they fought their share of epic threats. The OotS world is a world of campaigns and adventurers, and everyone knows that you gain levels by adventuring. Surely there have been enough campaigns in the past for it to be possible that those three casters were the villains of such campaigns.

[Dion]

Do we know the approximate levels of each of the high clerics at the godsmoot, based on the spells they used to attack or defend the vampires?

Edit: <joke>I am aware that “high cleric” and “highest level cleric” aren’t synonyms, but im looking for any information I can misconstrue and use to buttress my wild and otherwise unsupportable assertions. </joke>

[Aidan]

So there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, you can find one if you look for one, so long as it's not a cleric? That's a mighty specific argument there.

While I agree with the premise that epic level characters are scarce, the sort of search Haley was conducting was very different from just searching for epic level clerics. She was just looking for a cleric that could ressurect Roy, so that means what? A 17+ level cleric I believe. To find one she was going from town to town looking for temples.
Most epic level characters don't just sit around in urban areas waiting for someone to need them, they're either in their own stronghold or on some epic quest.

Granted, even if Haley was instead looking for an epic level cleric, she would likely have much more difficulty (where would she even start). Regardless of if there are any epic level clerics, I would assume there are more level 17 clerics than epic clerics.

[The Pilgrim]

I am pretty sure the three spliced souls are from this world's tenure. Because if they were from a past world:
1) Their souls would have already been absorbed by the relevant outer plane, the Fiends unable to retrieve them.
2) The Fiends wouldn't even remember them or their deeds after the mind wipe.

[Emanick]

But would magic even work after the world is destroyed? I mean, lets just flat out say Clerical Magic is right out cause the gods wouldn't bother granting it, but how about Arcane Magic? After all it's rules and format may have varied from world to world by quite a bit.

I don't think we have enough information to answer this question, but I wouldn't assume that the gods would stop granting spells to their followers after the world was destroyed. After all, that could cause them to lose out on Worship, Dedication, and maybe even Belief. There's no plausible reason I can think of for the gods to not continue to grant spells to any remaining followers after the Snarl breaks loose.

[RatElemental]

To be fair, "you can find an epic level character if you look for one" is probably at least 11 times as likely to be true as "you can find an epic level cleric if you look for one." Perhaps moreso, since high level clerics may tend to end up running churches rather than continuing to adventure.

I should also point out that Haley isn't in a great position to know whether there are any level 17+ clerics in the world. That kind of information probably isn't terribly public, and her search for a cleric who could resurrect Roy mostly consisted of wandering around the wilderness and then talking to a few people in Greysky City (plus the Oracle detour, but Belkar obviously ruined that). If you teleported to all the major cities in the world and talked with well-connected people in each of them, maybe with a few bribes, then maybe you'd be in a better position to know the prevalence of high-level or epic characters.

To be even more fair "You can find an epic level character if you look for one and they don't have to be currently alive." Is even more likely than "You can find an epic level character if you look for one."

[Riftwolf]

I don't think we have enough information to answer this question, but I wouldn't assume that the gods would stop granting spells to their followers after the world was destroyed. After all, that could cause them to lose out on Worship, Dedication, and maybe even Belief. There's no plausible reason I can think of for the gods to not continue to grant spells to any remaining followers after the Snarl breaks loose.

Maybe they don't give new clerics (ie children of planar exiles) spells so their expenditure slowly spins down. As for arcane magic: pretty sure the Gods control that too, only they can be a bit harsher because arcane magic is a bunch of bug exploits to divine magics published cheat codes.

[ElderSage]

Granted, even if Haley was instead looking for an epic level cleric, she would likely have much more difficulty (where would she even start). Regardless of if there are any epic level clerics, I would assume there are more level 17 clerics than epic clerics.

I mean, unless someone purposely went through wiping out the level 17 clerics for some reason, there probably are.

[Dion]

I don't recall Haley having trouble locating a 17th level cleric during the “Don’t Split the Party” storyline?

[Peelee]

I don't recall Haley having trouble locating a 17th level cleric during the “Don’t Split the Party” storyline?

Panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html). Cheers!

[Dion]

Panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html). Cheers!

Sure, but Belkar helped her find one. In the same panel, even!

[Peelee]

Belkar helped

Haley would dispute that. In the same panel, even!:smallamused:

ETA: Also, there's no indication Redcloak was 17th level at that time.:smalltongue:

[Dion]

Haley would dispute that. In the same panel, even!:smallamused:

ETA: Also, there's no indication Redcloak was 17th level at that time.:smalltongue:

Good point! RedCloak wasn’t “known” to be a 17th level cleric until 826.

Can someone help me remember why I’m arguing in the first place? Something about planeshift?

[woweedd]

Good point! RedCloak wasn’t “known” to be a 17th level cleric until 826.

Can someone help me remember why I’m arguing in the first place? Something about planeshift?

I would say that it’s pretty obvious Redcloak didn’t reach 17th level until 826: he explicitly mentions his “new spell level”.

[Peelee]

Can someone help me remember why I’m arguing in the first place? Something about planeshift?

Tonsies of funsies?

[Dion]

Tonsies of funsies?

Oh yeah! That’s right.

[mjasghar]

With regards to memory wipe and time etc
I’m pretty sure there was a post by the Giant that the world was created already with grown creatures with false memories
Specifically with regards to Familicde and there being mature black dragons since this world has been around for less time then it would have taken for a dragon to reach ancient age category from egg stage
Extrapolating that to the outer planes one would assume that at the start they weren’t empty of dead souls as the outsiders would get suspicious
So maybe the gods left some souls from previous worlds who were then shaped into the equivalent for this iteration - so an evil corp exec with top range cyberware would be turned into an evil epic caster

[Peelee]

With regards to memory wipe and time etc
I’m pretty sure there was a post by the Giant that the world was created already with grown creatures with false memories
Specifically with regards to Familicde and there being mature black dragons since this world has been around for less time then it would have taken for a dragon to reach ancient age category from egg stage

Nothing about false memories (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287767-How-Did-Familicide-Stop/page3&p=15461169#post15461169)(which I never even thought would have been the case), at least in the Famulicide bit.

[mjasghar]

1.) The people created at the moment of the planet's creation were all unrelated to each other, or perhaps only related in small groups—a family of 5 or 10 might have been created, but with no relation to all the other families being simultaneously created. Why? Because.
If you create a family that suggests some in that family are older - which by necessity means false memories
Add in that some of those families are dragons adults are going to be hundreds of years old
And I refer you to my point about the outer planes being empty of petitioners being unlikely

[RatElemental]

1.) The people created at the moment of the planet's creation were all unrelated to each other, or perhaps only related in small groups—a family of 5 or 10 might have been created, but with no relation to all the other families being simultaneously created. Why? Because.
If you create a family that suggests some in that family are older - which by necessity means false memories
Add in that some of those families are dragons adults are going to be hundreds of years old
And I refer you to my point about the outer planes being empty of petitioners being unlikely

Emphasis mine.

No, it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure an adult can understand the concept of having been poofed into existence five minutes ago fully grown by a literal god. Unless you're counting basic life skills being programmed into them as being false memories, I guess.

[Precure]

Who is Hylgia?

[Peelee]

Who is Hylgia?

Ya know, I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

[Schroeswald]

Ya know, I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

I on the other hand notice how often so many people consistently misspell it like that and I have no clue why.