View Full Version : [3.5] So... Eldritch Doom
Is there a source that specifies that Eldritch doom is centered on you? Maybe something that says that applying the shape causes the blast to lose its range? All I can find is the Complete Arcane description:
Dark Invocation; 8th; Blast Shape
This blast shape invocation allows you to invoke your eldritch blast as the dreaded eldritch doom. This causes bolts of mystical power to lash out and savage nearby targets. An eldritch doom deals eldritch blast damage to any number of targets designated by you and within 20 feet. This is not a ray attack, so it requires no ranged touch attack. Each target can attempt a Reflex save for half damage.
This is also the only mention that I can find that explains what an "eldritch doom" is. Since we all know how a cone functions, it is safe to imply that Eldritch cone works like any other cone. At least I don't know any way to move a cone from originating from you as the point of origin. The quote never mentions being centered on you or that the range is removed.
I'm pretty hesitant to use the wording in the epic warlock article for Eldritch Sculptor as the article also uses an interpretation of the rules to say that Warlock's Call has a cast time of 10 minutes. I also can't ignore the collaboration done on NWN 2 either.
ExLibrisMortis
2019-11-09, 09:44 PM
In absence of any qualifiers, I believe "targets designated by you and within 20 feet" defaults to "within 20 feet of you". Hence the centering.
Nothing in the errata.
CArc p9 says "Blast affects all enemies within 20 feet."
The more detailed description on p133, which you quote, doesn't clarify this.
I guess it's a dysfunction, or an ambiguity at least.
Celestia
2019-11-09, 10:45 PM
I mean, it should just be a fireball-style burst attack. It is a dark invocation, after all, but only the core full casters get nice things. As far as I can tell, it is centered on the caster for whatever dumb reason.
In absence of any qualifiers, I believe "targets designated by you and within 20 feet" defaults to "within 20 feet of you". Hence the centering.
If you compare it to any other shape, they all mention how they change the range of your Eldritch Blast. The only exception to this is Eldritch Chain which mentions nothing and everyone takes the implication that it means the range stays as is. Yet, this isn't the case for Eldritch Doom?
A way to phrase the description without adding meaning is: "invoke...the dreaded eldritch doom...deals...damage to any number of targets {designated by you}|{within 20 feet}"
I don't think it can default to just "within 20 feet of you" when "within 20 feet of the eldritch doom" can work just as well.
Nothing in the errata.
CArc p9 says "Blast affects all enemies within 20 feet."
The more detailed description on p133, which you quote, doesn't clarify this.
I guess it's a dysfunction, or an ambiguity at least.
Haah, I'm hoping it isn't this ambiguous. I've got a game next Sunday with someone who decided to pick up the invocation. Houseruling is cool and all but consistancy between tables is nice.
I mean, it should just be a fireball-style burst attack. It is a dark invocation, after all, but only the core full casters get nice things. As far as I can tell, it is centered on the caster for whatever dumb reason.
Practically permanent flight? Permanent greater invisibility and easy crafting for an item with permanent nondetection combined with 250 feet of blasting range? A 1 min long nauseating essence that targets a wizard's weaker save that can be cast indefinitely? Untrackable and scentless? There are quite a few more really strong options too such as AoE negative levels, AoE stun targeting will. Lots of stackable effects for some consistant fun. Heck, you can coat an entire battlefield full of will saves/grapples/and fire wall hellscapes.
Hint for something I found out only recently, contingent spells are considered items...I'll let you confer what you will from that.
Aotrs Commander
2019-11-10, 07:30 AM
I mean, it should just be a fireball-style burst attack. It is a dark invocation, after all, but only the core full casters get nice things. As far as I can tell, it is centered on the caster for whatever dumb reason.
I must admit, I agree and changed it to be so.
That said, it was surprisingly difficult to re-word absolutely unambiguously (as I did it myself recently); I initially changed it to "any number of targets, no two of which can be more than 40 feet apart", but then realised I then needed to make a specific exception for swarms counting as area effect. (Which you have to do, as if "targets" is mentioned, it doesn't affect swarms).
After some fiddling, I settled on "An Eldritch Doom deals Eldritch Blast damage to any and all creatures (including swarms) or objects that you choose to affect within the radius." and having "20-foot-spread" in the Area part of the spell description, but it was more effort than I rather thought should have been needed... So I can kind of see how they didn't manage to great a job of in Complete Arcane.
Remuko
2019-11-10, 12:30 PM
Huh I never thought it was ambiguous until now. All the shapes give you various shapes and I always assumed the shape for Doom was an emanation and the creators just thought an effect like that was op (its not) thus limiting it to "only" 20 feet from you (tho i assumed 20 feet in all directions from you, thus a 40' diameter).
Troacctid
2019-11-10, 02:13 PM
The source is the invocation itself. It says pretty clearly that you can only choose targets within 20 feet. If a target is 40 feet away, it's not within 20 feet. The range of a spell-like ability is, by definition, measured from the caster.
Imagine if it said "within range" instead. Would you consider that ambiguous because it didn't say "within range of you"? What about "within reach"? Still ambiguous without the "of you"?
If you think this makes the invocation useless, remember that it still a. boosts the save DC of eldritch essences applied to it and b. can target any number of objects in addition to creatures.
Zancloufer
2019-11-10, 02:44 PM
Not sure if it matters but Never Winter Nights 2 did rule it as Fireball-esque shape that could be fired off at some range. Might not be the best of sources but it does seem to support the possible RAI interpretation of being able to center it at least 60ft away.
Troacctid
2019-11-10, 03:38 PM
Anyway it's referenced in the Eldritch Sculptor epic feat, so there you are.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/643187314419564580/unknown.png
Fizban
2019-11-10, 04:27 PM
NWN is not RAI, it's Rules as We Decided are Appropriate for a Video Game. NWN1 had 24 hour summons and Mage Armor was four different types of +1, NWN 2 adds a whole extra PF-esque pile of stuff to the bard and treate Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor as an enhancement bonus. The default in NWN is friendly-fire: off, so you can already cast Fireball centered on self with no problems. That, combined with the fact that every other caster of the game (and Warlock plays exactly like a caster with slightly weaker but infinite spells) has just been pointing AoEs, means Eldritch Doom would look no different from a Fireball you were bizzarely not allowed to cast anywhere but self.
In tabletop it's quite clear that Eldritch Doom's lack of firendly fire is a significant feature. Lobbing Fireball bursts at Dark would probably be fine, but as-is it's still an on-self no-friendly-fire effect, and the Warlock's only proper AoE without friendly fire.
I include a rather significant number of alternate (and sure, objectively more powerful) blast shapes, as I find the blast shape to be the most effective method for "fixing" flaws in the damage progression (keep the essences carefully in line, then one blast shape to modify the area/damage/both, works). So Dark has other AoEs with friendly-fire on, or other multi-targets with fewer than "everything in 20 feet."
Mr Adventurer
2019-11-10, 04:58 PM
I always read it as being 20 feet from you and I always hated it as a result - how often would it matter in comparison to a cone or a chain, when the opportunity cost is a Dark Invocation?
As a short-range fireball effect, I love it. But I do think it's a house rule
The source is the invocation itself. It says pretty clearly that you can only choose targets within 20 feet. If a target is 40 feet away, it's not within 20 feet. The range of a spell-like ability is, by definition, measured from the caster.
Imagine if it said "within range" instead. Would you consider that ambiguous because it didn't say "within range of you"? What about "within reach"? Still ambiguous without the "of you"?
If you think this makes the invocation useless, remember that it still a. boosts the save DC of eldritch essences applied to it and b. can target any number of objects in addition to creatures.
If we are adding words to add clarity to the description, "at a range of up to 60 feet" would make just as much sense.
From the point of view that Eldritch Doom is simply changing the way your EB works as a blast shape does the only modifiers are given as follows: radius of 20 feet, your choice of targets, no longer a ray attack, and adds reflex for half. No mention of changing the range.
Let's do the same for Eldritch Cone: the area becomes cone, the range becomes 30 feet, hits everything in the area, no longer a ray attack, reflex for half.
Complete Arcane's definition of a blast shape:
Some invocations can modify a warlock's eldritch blast attack. These invocations are either blast shape invocations or eldritch essence invocations. They do not produce an effect on their own like regular invocations, but must be used in conjunction with eldritch blast to generate an effect.
If the description of Eldritch Cone never mentioned the range of 30 feet, what would be the assumed distance? The description had to include that it isn't a touch attack or it would have an attack roll. The same had to be done to add a reflex save as cones don't have saves just by default.
If we take CA RAW you have your Eldritch Blast then modify it with a shape. You have:
An eldritch blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw. An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.
An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects.
Then you have:
An eldritch doom is an eldritch doom with a range of 60 feet. It causes bolts of mystical power to lash out and savage any target designated by you and within 20 feet, allowing a reflex saving throw. An eldritch doom deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch doom is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell. If you apply an eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch doom (see page 130), your eldritch doom uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.
An eldritch doom is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch doom. An eldritch doom deals half damage to objects.
It seems that it could be taken the other way too, which makes it hard to decipher. Done your way:
An eldritch doom is an eldritch doom with a range of self. It causes bolts of mystical power with a range of 20 feet to lash out and savage any target designated by you, allowing a reflex saving throw. An eldritch doom deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch doom is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell. If you apply an eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch doom (see page 130), your eldritch doom uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.
An eldritch doom is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch doom. An eldritch doom deals half damage to objects.
Anyway it's referenced in the Eldritch Sculptor epic feat, so there you are.
It says it doubles the range and area of your blasts. It could be said that the author acted on incorrect conceptions by pointing out that a cone doesn't have an area to double so the quadrupling of the range of Eldritch Cone is incorrect. Not to mention eldritch doom doesn't have an area either if you take the description literally as it "lashes" with bolts at designated targets.
P.S. I like your Warlockopedia, although your disembodied hand review seems a little limited in scope as the actions presented in the invocation description aren't limitations and are examples. The hand never becomes not you and therefore benefits from anything that is cast on you. As spell like abilities can be released from any where from your body (still needs single free hand for that pesky somatic component, hehe get it?) your invocations can be cast from the disembodied hand.
Troacctid
2019-11-11, 01:34 AM
If we are adding words to add clarity to the description, "at a range of up to 60 feet" would make just as much sense.
Who said we were adding words?
P.S. I like your Warlockopedia, although your disembodied hand review seems a little limited in scope as the actions presented in the invocation description aren't limitations and are examples. The hand never becomes not you and therefore benefits from anything that is cast on you. As spell like abilities can be released from any where from your body (still needs single free hand for that pesky somatic component, hehe get it?) your invocations can be cast from the disembodied hand.
But you already benefit from anything cast on you. You don't need to detach your hand for that.
Who said we were adding words?
Imagine if it said "within range" instead. Would you consider that ambiguous because it didn't say "within range of you"? What about "within reach"? Still ambiguous without the "of you"?
Based on my understanding of english, the words of the description make no implication of how or where the point of origin is determined. Only that it exists. My hope for the thread is to find non-third party clarification on the issue (which is what the epic warlock article is, with several errors or contradictions with rules)
But you already benefit from anything cast on you. You don't need to detach your hand for that.
Well, you can apply walk unseen again after you break invisibility and re-maneuver the hand. Or do the recast for retributive invisibility + nondetection and just eldritch doom bomb from a distance; which is a combo the other player came up with in case the other tables don't allow the blast shape at range.
Psyren
2019-11-11, 03:06 AM
RAI is pretty clear from the Epic feat Troacctid quoted. You can say RAW is ambiguous and you may even be right, but since we have the designer intent then you have to convince your DM otherwise.
Troacctid
2019-11-11, 03:24 AM
Based on my understanding of english, the words of the description make no implication of how or where the point of origin is determined. Only that it exists. My hope for the thread is to find non-third party clarification on the issue (which is what the epic warlock article is, with several errors or contradictions with rules)
That's not adding words, that's comparing similar wordings.
Here, let's look at the ghast's stench aura.
The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes.
Ambiguous?
That's not adding words, that's comparing similar wordings.
Fat and large can be used in similar situations and even interchangeably in others. Doesn't mean that they mean the same thing except within a given context.
Ambiguous?
Not really. It tells you that the creatures are the source of a smell, and anyone that smells it within 10 feet are forced to make a save.
RAI is pretty clear from the Epic feat Troacctid quoted. You can say RAW is ambiguous and you may even be right, but since we have the designer intent then you have to convince your DM otherwise.
The article was written by a third party, so the designer intent can't be known from that. Not to mention several inconsistencies or contradictions can be found within the article, even the feat itself. The trustworthiness of the text of the feat as clarification on rules is iffy at best.
Psyren
2019-11-11, 06:17 PM
The article was written by a third party,
Irrelevant - publisher is what matters for 1st vs. 3rd party, and it was published by WotC. It even explicitly says it was an update to pg. 189 of Complete Arcane.
Irrelevant - publisher is what matters for 1st vs. 3rd party, and it was published by WotC. It even explicitly says it was an update to pg. 189 of Complete Arcane.
Let me get this straight. We should believe that Eldritch Doom has an area because the feat says
The area of the eldritch doom blast shape increases to 40 feet from you.
Want to know what that same publisher says about areas?
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects.
Eldritch doom is targeted. There is no area to speak of. It's like saying magic missile has an area just because it can select multiple targets. A person in sanctuary is protected from eldritch doom.
The area and range of all your eldritch blasts is doubled... The range of your eldritch cone increases to 120 feet.
How is 120 feet double 30 feet? Or does the doubling apply after the adjustments so in actuality your cone has a range of 240 feet? Eldritch doom having a range of 80 feet (according to the article)? Even if the area could be doubled on Eldritch cone, the range would still be 60 feet.
That should be enough to call into question the fidelity of the feat itself.
Troacctid
2019-11-11, 07:40 PM
Not really. It tells you that the creatures are the source of a smell, and anyone that smells it within 10 feet are forced to make a save.
Within 10 feet of where?
Fizban
2019-11-11, 08:05 PM
Irrelevant - publisher is what matters for 1st vs. 3rd party, and it was published by WotC. It even explicitly says it was an update to pg. 189 of Complete Arcane.
Which, incidentally, is why "1st party WotC" means absolutely nothing with regards to expectations of a cohesive well-balanced game, and it's hilarious cross-checking all the different authors/designers/etc involved in various "updates" of material down the years.
Within 10 feet of where?
The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures
It's quite easy to understand.
Blast shapes modify eldritch blast. They dont make it not eldritch blast. Eldritch doom is still eldritch blast. Eldritch blast has a range of 60 feet. I just don't see convincing evidence that an eldritch blast modified by eldritch doom can't emanate from a point up to 60 feet from the warlock.
Troacctid
2019-11-11, 08:45 PM
It's quite easy to understand.
Blast shapes modify eldritch blast. They dont make it not eldritch blast. Eldritch doom is still eldritch blast. Eldritch blast has a range of 60 feet. I just don't see convincing evidence that an eldritch blast modified by eldritch doom can't emanate from a point up to 60 feet from the warlock.
How about the Manyshot feat?
As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet.
Within 30 feet of where?
Or the rogue's sneak attack?
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Every target is going to be within 30 feet of something, right?
Psyren
2019-11-11, 08:47 PM
Let me get this straight. We should believe that Eldritch Doom has an area because the feat says
Yes.
Want to know what that same publisher says about areas?
Also irrelevant. Specific trumps general.
That should be enough to call into question the fidelity of the feat itself.
You are free to question anything you want.
DarkSoul
2019-11-11, 09:21 PM
...but consistancy between tables is nice.Eight people in this thread, myself included, agree that it's centered on the warlock. At this point it's up to you to decide if you want to be consistent or rule differently.
Eight people in this thread, myself included, agree that it's centered on the warlock. At this point it's up to you to decide if you want to be consistent or rule differently.
Consistency is probably the rule of the day, just exhausting any arguments I can come up with to preemptively address the issue. I honestly can't thank everyone enough for all the insight.
How about the Manyshot feat?
Within 30 feet of where?
Or the rogue's sneak attack?
Every target is going to be within 30 feet of something, right?
Within 30 feet of the origin of the projectile. If the rogue some how had telekinetic control of a bow and arrows and the ability to fire the arrows from the bow, I don't see why the rogue couldn't be 100 feet from the target and benefit from both feats if an attack action is able to be performed from the bow and arrows positioned 15 feet from the target. Edit: I would probably apply the range penalty as normal regardless though, but that would be personal flavor to balance such a scenario.
You are free to question anything you want.
Is it correct to assume that when things aren't mutually exclusive that both aspects can apply? How would you interpret the eldritch sculptor epic feat with how it portrays eldritch cone? Is it making an exception just for eldritch cone, would the doubling apply in addition to the adjusted range (i.e. 240 feet range), or was it simply a mistake on the author's part? These questions aren't meant to be argumentative, just genuinely curious.
Thanks for the help, both of you.
It's quite easy to understand.
Blast shapes modify eldritch blast. They dont make it not eldritch blast. Eldritch doom is still eldritch blast. Eldritch blast has a range of 60 feet. I just don't see convincing evidence that an eldritch blast modified by eldritch doom can't emanate from a point up to 60 feet from the warlock.
That's not quite how range works in 3.5
Range
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.
The ambiguity is caused by this shape not having a defined Range. The standard interpretation is that the range is 20'; but you can argue for 60' since that is the general range for Eldritch Blast and there is no formal specific rule to over-ride this.
That's not quite how range works in 3.5
The ambiguity is caused by this shape not having a defined Range. The standard interpretation is that the range is 20'; but you can argue for 60' since that is the general range for Eldritch Blast and there is no formal specific rule to over-ride this.
Specifically,
as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin.
is the point of contention. The Complete Arcane is fairly ambiguous on this point. Neverwinter Nights 2 is an excellent example visually of how it would be if you could designate a point of origin beyond yourself since it is no longer a ray attack. Because 60 feet is short range when you compare it to many other similar effects, it can be pretty easy to just convince the DM to allow it regardless of their interpretation.
Troacctid
2019-11-12, 01:29 AM
Within 30 feet of the origin of the projectile. If the rogue some how had telekinetic control of a bow and arrows and the ability to fire the arrows from the bow, I don't see why the rogue couldn't be 100 feet from the target and benefit from both feats if an attack action is able to be performed from the bow and arrows positioned 15 feet from the target. Edit: I would probably apply the range penalty as normal regardless though, but that would be personal flavor to balance such a scenario.
Where are you getting that from the wording?
skunk3
2019-11-24, 05:51 AM
The way I interpret Eldritch Doom is that is essentially turns your EB into a 'fireball' so you can affect more than one target at range without friendly fire. Otherwise, for a Dark invocation it's really not that great because how often are Warlocks wading into the thick of things, and how often would it be more beneficial than, say, Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Cone? (Or Eldritch Glaive, for that matter if we are talking being THAT close to enemies.)
With Eldritch Sculptor it gets really badass because it can affect enemies in a 40' area of effect AND since your EB range is double that means you can center the effect much further away than before.
Also, this page shows the range as 60 feet and area as 20 feet: http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/eldritch-doom
The way I interpret Eldritch Doom is that is essentially turns your EB into a 'fireball' so you can affect more than one target at range without friendly fire. Otherwise, for a Dark invocation it's really not that great because how often are Warlocks wading into the thick of things, and how often would it be more beneficial than, say, Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Cone? (Or Eldritch Glaive, for that matter if we are talking being THAT close to enemies.)
With Eldritch Sculptor it gets really badass because it can affect enemies in a 40' area of effect AND since your EB range is double that means you can center the effect much further away than before.
Also, this page shows the range as 60 feet and area as 20 feet: http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/eldritch-doom
It's really easy to see it as a fireball type scenario and I don't think many DMs care all that much, but you can always pick up Disembodied hand to let you cast it from range regardless of the ruling. Entropic Warding, Retributive Invisibility, and non-detection will make sure that the hand can't be targeted while the close nature of the shape will protect the hand from AoE in most cases. Throwing out 17d6 dooms at will is really strong regardless.
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