Some Eberron Book spoilers

[jaappleton]

Eberron: Rising From the Last War is coming out soon.

I know some things about the book. If something you’re looking for isn’t listed, doesn’t mean it’s not in the book, it just means I don’t know about it.

If I learn any new information, I will be sure to pass it along.

Here is what I know so far:

Artificer is in it. Archivist did not make the cut.

Orc got a revamp from Volo’s. No more INT penalty, still has that charge-like ability. Str & Con.

Warforged Integrated Protection is gone. +1 AC, and they can wear armor by incorporating it into their design.

Shifters are still terrible, which is a shame.

DRAGONMARKS ARE DIFFERENT FROM WAYFINDER’S

The modified races still exist, so Sentinel Human is still a thing. But now each gets a list of bonus spells thematically appropriate to their Dragonmark, which are added to your class list if you’re a spell caster, very similar to the Ravnica backgrounds. No more Greater Dragonmark Feats at level 8.

I know one of those Dragonmarks grants access to Armor of Agathys.

There are TWO feats in the book:
Aberrant Dragonmark
Revenant Blade

Revenant Blade has been nerfed slightly. +1 Dex or Str, double scimitars become Finesse for you, and +1 to AC. (No more +1d4 on the bonus action attack)


EDIT:

Mark of Healing Halfling grants Healing Word and Cure Wounds to your spell list. Sorcs? Warlocks? PALADINS CAN FINALLY HAVE HEALING WORD! Mark of Healing retains Halfling Nimbleness, Brave and Lucky as well.

Warforged: Con +2, any other stat +1, one skill and one tool proficiency, one language, adv on saves VS poison, resistance to poison, immune to disease, magic can't put you to sleep, +1 to AC and armor becomes integrated into you (and can't be removed unwillingly)

ARTIFICER: Proficiency only in simple weapons. Big change! If your world has firearms, Artificers are automatically proficient. To cast spells, you must have tools in your hand OR an infused item (once you gain the ability to do so). You can magically create artisans tools at lv3, kinda like how a Tome Warlock can get their tools back on a long rest (so if you ever lose your tools, you can generate new ones). At level 6, if you're proficient with a tool, you gain automatic Expertise.

Their lv7 ability is Flash of Genius: Use your Reaction, you can add your Intelligence modifier to someone else's ability check or saving throw that you can see within 30ft of you. You can use this a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier per long rest. (Note: You can use this to boost an allies casting of Counterspell, or apply it to someones Initiative)

Level 10 is when you can attune to 4 items.

At 11, you get Spell Storing Item. When you finish a long rest, choose a 1st or 2nd level spell from the Artificer list. It must have a casting time of an action. Someone else can then take object and cast the spell, using your spellcasting modifier. The object can be used to cast the spell this way a number of times equal to DOUBLE your Intelligence modifier. (WOW!)

Level 14 is Magic Item Savant: Attune to up to 5 items, and ignore all class, race and spell and level requirements for using or attuning to magic items.

At 18th, attune to up to 6 items.

Level 20 gets you +1 to all saves per magic item you're attuned to, and if you drop to 0 HP but not killed outright, you can use your reaction to end an infusion and instead drop to 1 HP. (I do believe Death Saves are in fact saving throws)

NOTE THE ARTIFICERS DO NOT GET A LEVEL 5 FEATURE. That's now a SUBCLASS feature. They don't get blanket Extra Attack like the UA version!

ALCHEMIST

Homonculous is gone, replaced with Experimental Elixer. Create one at the end of a long rest, lasts until next long rest or you make a new one. Can create two at level 6 and three at level 15.

You can choose the effects of the elixer IF you use a spell slot of 1st level or higher to create one, or you get one for free if you want to chance rolling on the d6 table for the effect.

Healing regains 2d4+Int Mod HP
Swiftness is +10ft walking speed for an hour
Resilience is +1 AC for 10 minutes
Boldness is essentially the targets gets Blessed for one minute (But actually stacks with Bless)
Flight nets a 10ft flying speed for 10 minutes
Transformation gets Alter Self for 10 minutes, and the drinker picks the effects of Alter Self

Alchemical Savant is different. +Int Mod to healing, OR to damage rolls of spells that deal Fire, Necrotic, Poison, or Acid.

At level 9, cast Lesser Restoration a number of times per long rest equal to your Int modifier. Also, whenever someone drinks your Elixer, they gain 2d6+Int Mod temp HP.

Chemical Mastery at lv15 nets you immunity to the poisoned condition, resistance to acid and poison damage, and you can cast Greater Restoration and Heal once per long rest. (YES. Heal. Holy ****)

ARTILLERIST

Ok, things are getting wordy.

You can make a Small or Tiny item called an Eldritch Cannon. Small one takes up a 5ft unoccupied space, and the Tiny version can fit in your hand. Can create one cannon (regardless of which size) once per long rest. Can only have one cannon at a time. Can create one per long rest, and can make another one after that by spending a spell slot of 1st level or higher. Cannon is a magical object, with 18AC and immunity to all conditions. HP equals 5x your Artificer level. Also immune to poison and psychic. Its a bonus action to activate.

Flamethrower is a 2d8 fire damage, 15ft cone
Force Ballista is 2d8 force damage VS single target, pushes 5ft away
Protector is 1d8+Int Mod Temp HP to everyone you choose within 10ft of it

Arcane Firearm at 5th level. You can carve sigils into a wand, staff, rod, etc and when you cast a spell through that sigil having item, deal an extra 1d8 damage of the same type with one of the damage rolls.

Level 9 gets Explosive Cannon. The damage rolls of Flamethrower and Force Ballista increase by 1d8, and you can make the Eldritch Cannon explode for 3d8 force damage (dex save for half)

Level 15 is Fortified Position. Eldritch Cannon now grants allies within 10ft half cover, and you can have two cannons at once, activating both with the same bonus action. The cannons can activate different effects (so one flamethrower and one protector if you want)

BATTLE SMITH

You gain proficiency in Martial Weapons
You can use Int instead of Str or Dex for weapon attacks with magical items

Steel Defender at 3rd level. Only dodges unless you use your bonus action to command it.

You get Extra Attack at 5th level

Arcane Jolt at lv9. Bumped up to 2d6, instead of the 2d4 of the UA version.

15th level is Improved Defender: Arcane Jolt bumped to 4d6, +2 AC to your steel defender, whenever your steel defender uses Deflect Attack, the attacker takes 1d4+Your Int Mod force damage.

[stoutstien]

Haven't heard about the dragonmark changes yet. I'm hoping they still have some use for non casters.

shifters can still have a solid ablity if only for thp every s/l rest. +2 Wis races are rare so any more is nice. I think they will be over shadowed by the other new picks but I still like then.

The double scimitar still bugs me but I'm glad they toned it down.

[Millstone85]

Archivist did not make the cut.And there goes the setting I was working on. :smalleek:

[Zhorn]

Warforged Integrated Protection is gone. +1 AC, and they can wear armor by incorporating it into their design.
Revenant Blade has been nerfed slightly. +1 Dex or Str, double scimitars become Finesse for you, and +1 to AC. (No more +1d4 on the bonus action attack)
For the best, those were a on the OP side of things, and even post change they are still strong.

[stoutstien]

And there goes the setting I was working on. :smalleek:

It did have a lot of wording issues. I could see you get released whenever they do a psionic book.

On a side note they did buff The alchemist. Some unknown enhancement on potion making. Here hoping for infused spell/potions.

[ChaosOS]

Adam Koebel spilled all the beans on Thursday, did a roll20 stream and just went through all the charactermancer options.

[Dork_Forge]

Adam Koebel spilled all the beans on Thursday, did a roll20 stream and just went through all the charactermancer options.

Where was the stream? Can't seem to find it

[jaappleton]

Adam Koebel spilled all the beans on Thursday, did a roll20 stream and just went through all the charactermancer options.

Why you gotta spoil my source like that? :smalltongue:

[GreyBlack]

Any reason given for why the Archivist was nixed?

[Arkhios]

And there goes the setting I was working on. :smalleek:

Don't worry, if it was your own setting (and not some existing one), you might as well keep using the UA version of Archivist, until it ends up printed in another book (if it ever will). IMHO, it's not that Archivist was unbalanced, per sé. It's just a bit of a mess regarding its wording.

[Arcturus]

Any reason given for why the Archivist was nixed?

Based on a DnDBeyond interview with JC it sounded like people couldn’t wrap their heads around the concept so it received low satisfaction scores.

Did the alchemist keep their homunculus? He had mentioned that was potentially going to get turned into something akin to a familiar - less powerful but available to all artificers.

[Sception]

Any changes to wargorged stat mods & sub races?

[Trandir]

Any changes to wargorged stat mods & sub races?

For what I've hunderstood there are no more subraces but they hava a simic hybrid like customizable options instead.

[Joe the Rat]

So more purpose built than Three Molds. If the points work out (and you can more-or-less recreate the three), I think this would better capture the construct factor.

[Throne12]

Where was the stream? Can't seem to find it

It's up on his youtube page now

[Throne12]

Based on a DnDBeyond interview with JC it sounded like people couldn’t wrap their heads around the concept so it received low satisfaction scores.

Did the alchemist keep their homunculus? He had mentioned that was potentially going to get turned into something akin to a familiar - less powerful but available to all artificers.

You get a magical elixir. Its a roll on table for effect.

[jaappleton]

Adam did indeed put the stream up on his YT page. I will comb through it and update the first post.

I likely won’t get EVERYTHING, but a good chunk of stuff.

[jaappleton]

Updated the first post quite a bit with Artificer info.

[stoutstien]

The alchemist changes look interesting. The lose of the little helper hurts but what they got in trade look well worth it.
I like how they spread out some of the class features to fill the void it had from 5-10. Definitely looking forward to playing one.

[Millstone85]

For what I've hunderstood there are no more subraces but they hava a simic hybrid like customizable options instead.Now that would actually help with my setting.

Hmm, I will just replace the archivists of my story with battle smiths.

[jaappleton]

The alchemist changes look interesting. The lose of the little helper hurts but what they got in trade look well worth it.
I like how they spread out some of the class features to fill the void it had from 5-10. Definitely looking forward to playing one.

I like the Alchemist most overall. I really dislike how reliant the other subclasses are on using their bonus action.

I think Hobgoblins make possible the best Artificers, as they get proficiency in any martial weapon. So hand crossbows are a full go with non-battle smiths.

[Makorel]

What do Alchemists get at 5th level?

Edit: Glad they gave Alchemists a few more damage types than acid that was probably my biggest concern with the subclass. Necrotic, Poison, Fire and Acid is a good amount of types to use without being a master of all damage types.

[trctelles]

I'm kinda sad that the Gunsmith and the Thunder Cannon did not make the cut for this book (As for the info we have now)... I really liked that

[chainer1216]

I really hate the change to warforged, i understand why they did it balance wise but their solution is so lazy and thematically just really off.

[Joe the Rat]

The alchemist changes look interesting. The lose of the little helper hurts but what they got in trade look well worth it.
Pets for everyone was an interesting take, but I suspect that was one of the things that sunk the Archivist. You are the scroll artificer oh and also you have Cortana and engage in ECM warfare was a bit sidewsys.

Pity though. My Artificer player is having a ton of fun with Steinway.

[ImperiousLeader]

I'm surprised that the Kalashtar got locked into bonuses to WIS and CHA, they're an archetypal Psion. Unless Psions are not going to be an INT casting class?

[chainer1216]

I'm surprised that the Kalashtar got locked into bonuses to WIS and CHA, they're an archetypal Psion. Unless Psions are not going to be an INT casting class?

Psions likely wont be a class at all.

[AgenderArcee]

Do you know if the cantrip progression has changed for artificer? Two cantrips until level 10 feels very limiting, particularly for the Alchemist with extra attack gone.

Also, any changes to the spell list? Is Arcane Weapon totally gone? That'd be a pity.

[ImperiousLeader]

Do you know if the cantrip progression has changed for artificer? Two cantrips until level 10 feels very limiting, particularly for the Alchemist with extra attack gone.

Also, any changes to the spell list? Is Arcane Weapon totally gone? That'd be a pity.

Difficult to say, the stream wasn't reading the full book, it was through the Roll20 character creator (which I was underwhelmed with, the search function wasn't great), so we didn't get the full class progression table. Ultimately, until we see people previewing the actual paper book, I don't think we'll know.

[Tectorman]

Pets for everyone was an interesting take, but I suspect that was one of the things that sunk the Archivist. You are the scroll artificer oh and also you have Cortana and engage in ECM warfare was a bit sidewsys.

Pity though. My Artificer player is having a ton of fun with Steinway.

On the one hand, I'm glad there is at least one way to play an Artificer without that mandating that I manage more than one stat block. Not every Wizard needs or wants a familiar, not every Paladin needs or wants a mount, not every Ranger needs or wants an animal companion, and picking Artificer shouldn't automatically impose a pet.

On the other hand, I wish they'd kept the pet separate from the subclasses altogether, the same way picking the Fiend patron for the Warlock completely leaves open whether you get a hellish glaive, an imp, or a diabolicon tome. For those who wanted both a pet and alchemical artificing, that option could easily have been there, just like I'd like to have an artillerist or battlesmith character without a required pet.

[ImperiousLeader]

Pets for everyone was an interesting take, but I suspect that was one of the things that sunk the Archivist. You are the scroll artificer oh and also you have Cortana and engage in ECM warfare was a bit sidewsys.

Pity though. My Artificer player is having a ton of fun with Steinway.

I know someone at WotC said that the Archivist was favourably rated in the Artificer Survey, it did better than the Alchemist. I'd expect that the subclass will be in whatever book gets published with all the other UA subclasses that have been tried out.

[Cassinopa]

Any changes to wargorged stat mods & sub races?

For what I've hunderstood there are no more subraces but they hava a simic hybrid like customizable options instead.

Now that would actually help with my setting.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like that's the case, warforged do not seem to have any customization options.(other than a skill and tool proficiency)

Warforged
ASI +2 Con +1 Any other ability score
Languages: Common, one other language
Proficiency in one Skill and one Tool
Constructed resilience - Magic cant sleep you, advantage against poisoned, Resistant to poison damage, don't need to sleep, eat, drink.(Same, except for the removal of the no exhaustion from lack of rest feature)
6 hour Sentry rest
+1 AC, you take an hour to "equip" and "remove" armour.

To me this is very disappointing with just how much they've gutted. Integrated protection I can understand(though I would have rather it be nerfed than removed), but did they have to gut everything else too?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Unfortunately it doesn't look like that's the case, warforged do not seem to have any customization options.(other than a skill and tool proficiency)

Warforged
ASI +2 Con +1 Any other ability score
Languages: Common, one other language
Proficiency in one Skill and one Tool
Constructed resilience - Magic cant sleep you, advantage against poisoned, Resistant to poison damage, don't need to sleep, eat, drink.(Same, except for the removal of the no exhaustion from lack of rest feature)
6 hour Sentry rest
+1 AC, you take an hour to "equip" and "remove" armour.

To me this is very disappointing with just how much they've gutted. Integrated protection I can understand(though I would have rather it be nerfed than removed), but did they have to gut everything else too?

I'm not too torn up about it, although it's a pretty large step back from making Warforged feel unique for what they were built for as far as I'm concerned. Now all Warforged are essentially Envoy minus the tool expertise. I'm not seeing how it's "gutted" beyond losing subraces, more like "pruned".

I think I prefer the +2 over +1 Con though, that's a pretty nice bonus with a +1 of your choice attached.

[Arkhios]

I must say I'm really glad they nixed Homunculus (*ahem* Spelling, Jaappleton *ahem*), at least as an Alchemist exclusive feature, because I like the Alchemist in on itself a lot, but not the mandatory Homunculus. Of course, I understand why it was specifically part of Alchemist in the UA, but I think it's not something every alchemist is interested in creating. I know I wouldn't be.

[chainer1216]

I'm not too torn up about it, although it's a pretty large step back from making Warforged feel unique for what they were built for as far as I'm concerned. Now all Warforged are essentially Envoy minus the tool expertise. I'm not seeing how it's "gutted" beyond losing subraces, more like "pruned".

I think I prefer the +2 over +1 Con though, that's a pretty nice bonus with a +1 of your choice attached.

Theyre just a worse dwarf now.

[Arkhios]

Theyre just a worse dwarf now.

Not necessarily. I'd like to see the racial feature description before making any such claims, because there's still slight possibility that the integrated armor doesn't interfere with their movement, just like it didn't in UA.

[Cassinopa]

Not necessarily. I'd like to see the racial feature description before making any such claims, because there's still slight possibility that the integrated armor doesn't interfere with their movement, just like it didn't in UA.

https://i.imgur.com/48W6wzV.png

So, you can only use armour you are proficient in, and there is nothing about removing movement penalties imposed by armour.

[Arkhios]

https://i.imgur.com/48W6wzV.png

So, you can only use armour you are proficient in, and there is nothing about removing movement penalties imposed by armour.

Gotcha. Thanks, by the way.

[AdAstra]

The warforged seems off. If they're not adding in any other features this'll be pretty disappointing. There should definitely be some kind of selected feature beyond this.

[Arkhios]

The warforged seems off. If they're not adding in any other features this'll be pretty disappointing. There should definitely be some kind of selected feature beyond this.

Glanced through the Adam Koebel's stream, and I must say I don't know what program he's using to overview the book's content, but it kinda looks like it's not entirely finished product and some stuff might still be missing. But again, I don't know what it is so I really can't say for certain.

[AdAstra]

Glanced through the Adam Koebel's stream, and I must say I don't know what program he's using to overview the book's content, but it kinda looks like it's not entirely finished product and some stuff might still be missing. But again, I don't know what it is so I really can't say for certain.

Yup. We'll just have to wait and see. I doubt they'd just walk back on what they've said earlier, so it's probably just a work in progress.

[jaappleton]

Glanced through the Adam Koebel's stream, and I must say I don't know what program he's using to overview the book's content, but it kinda looks like it's not entirely finished product and some stuff might still be missing. But again, I don't know what it is so I really can't say for certain.

Roll20.

He’s the Matt Mercer of Roll20.

[Arkhios]

Roll20.

He’s the Matt Mercer of Roll20.

Oh god no.

[Joe the Rat]

That is like the opposite of simic hybrid. Which has its own poetic irony I suppose.

Armor *must* be integrated to be used - so that had to go in racial.

There's a sliver of a possibility that integrated tools (or whatnot) are a cost tucked in with equipment. Or a feat.

[stoutstien]

That is like the opposite of simic hybrid. Which has its own poetic irony I suppose.

Armor *must* be integrated to be used - so that had to go in racial.

There's a sliver of a possibility that integrated tools (or whatnot) are a cost tucked in with equipment. Or a feat.

The race presented in the video seems like a preview but I think they have more added I the actual printed version. A blanket +1 AC and 2 con plus a floating +1 is a solid foundation. I think that it still maintaining the role of AC king without the problems that had before was smart.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I must say I'm really glad they nixed Homunculus (*ahem* Spelling, Jaappleton *ahem*), at least as an Alchemist exclusive feature, because I like the Alchemist in on itself a lot, but not the mandatory Homunculus. Of course, I understand why it was specifically part of Alchemist in the UA, but I think it's not something every alchemist is interested in creating. I know I wouldn't be.

The minionmancy aspect is exactly why I gravitated towards the Artillerist. Of course, it wasn't without its own extra bits and bobs to manage but it wasn't an entirely new creature with its own actions and complete statblock.

Strange quirk of mine, I don't mind having my character be complex with dozens of moving parts but add in a minion with more than a few actions and/or a changing stat block and my brain can't function properly. Familiar good, Homunculus bad.

[Damon_Tor]

Their lv7 ability is Flash of Genius: Use your Reaction, you can add your Intelligence modifier to someone else's ability check or saving throw that you can see within 30ft of you. You can use this a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier per long rest. (Note: You can use this to boost an allies casting of Counterspell, or apply it to someones Initiative)

Being able to selectively boost an allies initiative is great in situations where it's advantageous to have initiative run in a certain order. For example, a paladin will usually want his mount to go right before he does, this makes it much more likely that you can engineer that outcome.


Level 10 is when you can attune to 4 items.

Very nice


At 11, you get Spell Storing Item. When you finish a long rest, choose a 1st or 2nd level spell from the Artificer list. It must have a casting time of an action. Someone else can then take object and cast the spell, using your spellcasting modifier. The object can be used to cast the spell this way a number of times equal to DOUBLE your Intelligence modifier. (WOW!)

That is HUGE. Any reason a tiny servant can't use it? IE, is there an int requirement on it again? If not, my TSARs come online WAY earlier than normal.


Level 14 is Magic Item Savant: Attune to up to 5 items, and ignore all class, race and spell and level requirements for using or attuning to magic items.

At 18th, attune to up to 6 items.

I definitely like spreading out the attunement limit increases, and the ability to use out of class items is a needed change.


Level 20 gets you +1 to all saves per magic item you're attuned to, and if you drop to 0 HP but not killed outright, you can use your reaction to end an infusion and instead drop to 1 HP. (I do believe Death Saves are in fact saving throws)

Damn, great capstone.

[MaxWilson]

That is HUGE. Any reason a tiny servant can't use it? IE, is there an int requirement on it again? If not, my TSARs come online WAY earlier than normal.

Sounds like you only get one though. Are your TSARs effective with only one item?

Edit: Google answered my question ("Damon_Tor TSAR"). 30d8 from 10x Shatters at level 11 isn't out of line, especially since I believe you don't have enough spell slots to actually create 10 Tiny Servants until level 17 unless you multiclass. Seems more like "Cool! That really feels like an Artificer!" than broken.

[WadeWay33]

Do we know if the Artificer is still a half caster? It probably is, but it doesn’t hurt to hope.

[Luccan]

Do we know if the Artificer is still a half caster? It probably is, but it doesn’t hurt to hope.

My hope would be that most of their magic would be accessed via infusions (similarly to how the worked in 3.5, updated for 5e as needed of course) but I know I'm not going to get that so I'm also curious about their spellcaster ability.

Edit: Also, small thing, glad they realized that only giving two playable races in the entire game an ability score penalty was stupid. Now if only we could get them to officially remove it from Kobold. And also make the Orc an equal choice to Half-Orc, which it still isn't from the sounds of it.

[MaxWilson]

And also make the Orc an equal choice to Half-Orc, which it still isn't from the sounds of it.

The Orc is substantially better than the Half-Orc. That's what you get for mixing your blood with impure humans.

[HappyDaze]

Theyre just a worse dwarf now.

Worse how? They get a floating +1 rather than a fixed and they will always be +1 better in AC than what the equivalent dwarf would be. Is it the darkvision part that's a problem?

[ProsecutorGodot]

The Orc is substantially better than the Half-Orc. That's what you get for mixing your blood with impure humans.

You would say that Aggressive and Powerful Build rate higher than Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks?

I suppose the Orc's features are never really in question for "if" you can use them so I can see how that would be more appealing.

[WadeWay33]

You would say that Aggressive and Powerful Build rate higher than Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks?

I suppose the Orc's features are never really in question for "if" you can use them so I can see how that would be more appealing.

I think he was being sarcastic

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think he was being sarcastic

Hard to tell, I generally don't assume sarcasm unless we're speaking in blue text or it's explained literally.

[Luccan]

You would say that Aggressive and Powerful Build rate higher than Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks?

I suppose the Orc's features are never really in question for "if" you can use them so I can see how that would be more appealing.

To be fair, I actually don't think Aggressive is inadequate, it's just inadequate by itself. My houserule is to take away the Int penalty, which this is going to do for me now, and also give Savage Attack. It gives them more in common with their offspring, while letting Half-Orcs keep something cool and unique in Relentless Endurance (which I headcanon as a combination human willpower+actual orcish endurance).

[WadeWay33]

Hard to tell, I generally don't assume sarcasm unless we're speaking in blue text or it's explained literally.

Didn't know that, makes a lot more sense now that I think about it. Thanks!

[MaxWilson]

You would say that Aggressive and Powerful Build rate higher than Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks?

I suppose the Orc's features are never really in question for "if" you can use them so I can see how that would be more appealing.


I think he was being sarcastic

Nope, I'm fully serious. Savage Attacks is a minor damage boost to 5% of your attacks; Relentless Endurance is basically 1/long rest Healing Word. (It would be considerably better if it prevented insta-kills, but it explicitly doesn't.)

Aggressive, on the other hand, is a bonus action mobility boost which is applicable in close to 100% of hostile situations, at least if you're a melee-oriented Str fighter like the Orc stereotype. Spend fewer rounds Dashing and more rounds Attacking. It even has defensive benefits by allowing you to e.g. strafe more easily: spend your Aggressive movement moving towards the enemy, hit them a few times, then move away with your regular movement, taking only an opportunity attack in return (depending on relative movement rates, e.g. w/ Barbarian Fast Movement or Longstrider).

Orc is still on the weak side because there are plenty of other ways to get even more flexible bonus actions, but half-orc is weaker still.

[Damon_Tor]

Sounds like you only get one though. Are your TSARs effective with only one item?

Edit: Google answered my question ("Damon_Tor TSAR"). 30d8 from 10x Shatters at level 11 isn't out of line, especially since I believe you don't have enough spell slots to actually create 10 Tiny Servants until level 17 unless you multiclass. Seems more like "Cool! That really feels like an Artificer!" than broken.

In my opinion, the best way to use the spell storing item as a Battlesmith was to have tiny servants cast Warding Bond on you while tossing magic stones from a shoulder-mounted "bunker" built into your armor. Not sure if battlesmiths still have Warding Bond though.

[MaxWilson]

In my opinion, the best way to use the spell storing item as a Battlesmith was to have tiny servants cast Warding Bond on you while tossing magic stones from a shoulder-mounted "bunker" built into your armor. Not sure if battlesmiths still have Warding Bond though.

It's not terrible, but it's not exactly overpowered either. Not only will AoEs have a good chance of wiping them out (depending on whether you can get your DM to consider armor "total cover" for some or all Tiny Servants), but you're only a half-caster spending your 11th level feature and your spell slots on Tiny Servant (at 11th level you've got 3 3rd level slots, so only 3 Tiny Servants) to boost your effective HP by, what, 50 HP? And your AC and saving throws by +1. You get a bonus action quasi-attack on top of that which is (guesstimating) maybe 10% as powerful as the equivalent Necromancer's bonus action attack, 20% against weapon-resistant foes.

(Also it's technically illegal to have allies, even Tiny allies, end their turn inside your space, but a reasonable DM is likely to waive that restriction--although the same reasonable DM might also rule that it's unreasonable for Tiny Servants small enough to hide inside your armor to be chucking Magic Stones.)

It sounds interesting but not unprecedented. Similar in power to an Eldritch Knight.

[Luccan]

Nope, I'm fully serious. Savage Attacks is a minor damage boost to 5% of your attacks; Relentless Endurance is basically 1/long rest Healing Word. (It would be considerably better if it prevented insta-kills, but it explicitly doesn't.)

Aggressive, on the other hand, is a bonus action mobility boost which is applicable in close to 100% of hostile situations, at least if you're a melee-oriented Str fighter like the Orc stereotype. Spend fewer rounds Dashing and more rounds Attacking. It even has defensive benefits by allowing you to e.g. strafe more easily: spend your Aggressive movement moving towards the enemy, hit them a few times, then move away with your regular movement, taking only an opportunity attack in return (depending on relative movement rates, e.g. w/ Barbarian Fast Movement or Longstrider).

Orc is still on the weak side because there are plenty of other ways to get even more flexible bonus actions, but half-orc is weaker still.

Half-Orc has abilities at least useable with non-melee characters, though I suppose the value of that is subjective.

In your opinion, which races make better melee characters?

[MaxWilson]

Half-Orc has abilities at least useable with non-melee characters, though I suppose the value of that is subjective.

In your opinion, which races make better melee characters?

Is the question which is better in melee, orc or half-orc? In the kinds of games I run, where encounter distances are based off of real-world distances, clearly the orc is better than the half orc. Again, fewer rounds Dashing = more rounds attacking = more likely to be relevant in any given encounter. If I were going to play e.g. a Barbarian, Orc would be one of the top contenders for my race choice, because a Barbarian who's chucking javelins from long range is a sad Barbarian.

In other games? Hard to say. I don't play 5E as fanatically as many, but in addition to the games I run, I've played under a handful (five or so?) other local DMs, and I don't remember seeing any campaigns where mobile tactics wouldn't have be useful, although there certainly are parties who aren't equipped to use them (because it requires cooperation). In none of the campaigns that I've seen would a half-orc be more valuable than an orc for a melee warrior.


Edit: oh, were you asking which races make better melee characters than half-orcs and orcs? Humans are obviously a top contender because of feats like HAM/PAM/GWM. Goblin Moon Druids are rather amusing, although they're not restricted purely to melee. Half-elves wind up being good Paladins (Padlocks/Paladorcs/Paladorlocks/etc.) and therefore good tanks. And obviously Shepherd Druids are terrific at vicarious melee. Melee is all about bringing a knife to a gunfight so even the "best" melee character had better be good at other things too besides melee, which means that my favorite "melee characters" tend to be things like human wizard tanks (HAM Enchanter X/Forge Cleric 1), but if I for some reason want to play a straight melee Barbarian, orcs and GWM humans would have to be my top picks.

[chainer1216]

Worse how? They get a floating +1 rather than a fixed and they will always be +1 better in AC than what the equivalent dwarf would be. Is it the darkvision part that's a problem?

Well theres also all those proficiencies and the possibility of +1hp/lvl, and thats not to mention how a +2 str is likely much more useful than a floating +1.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well theres also all those proficiencies and the possibility of +1hp/lvl, and thats not to mention how a +2 str is likely much more useful than a floating +1.

It's not going to make that much of a difference in the long run and a floating +1 is also significantly better for non strength based classes than a +2 str.

I much prefer the fact that we can have a debate on how the warforged is comparable to other races rather than simply superior.

[Damon_Tor]

Half-Orc has abilities at least useable with non-melee characters, though I suppose the value of that is subjective.

In your opinion, which races make better melee characters?

Just because the aggressive trait requires you use your bonus action to move toward an enemy, it imposes no such requirement on your normal movement. So you can absolutely use the ability to kite more effectively: you can begin your turn 30 feet outside the range of your spells or weapons, use a bonus action to move 30 feet closer, make your ranged attack or cast your spell, then move 30 feet back with your regular movement. This allows an orc to stay further back from combat while still contributing.

[chainer1216]

It's not going to make that much of a difference in the long run and a floating +1 is also significantly better for non strength based classes than a +2 str.

I much prefer the fact that we can have a debate on how the warforged is comparable to other races rather than simply superior.

You might think we can but i wholeheartedly disagree, to me warforged are now an unfinished skeleton of a race that arent worth playing.


Its the champion fighter of races, technically playable but bland as hell and mechanically worse than all the other options.

[stoutstien]

You might think we can but i wholeheartedly disagree, to me warforged are now an unfinished skeleton of a race that arent worth playing.


Its the champion fighter of races, technically playable but bland as hell and mechanically worse than all the other options.

They still match/beat others in flat AC which is hardly a small boon. A lv 1 warforged fighter is sitting at 20 AC all day even when they sleep.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You might think we can but i wholeheartedly disagree, to me warforged are now an unfinished skeleton of a race that arent worth playing.


Its the champion fighter of races, technically playable but bland as hell and mechanically worse than all the other options.

I thought we were talking about Warforged here, not Standard Human.

Your opinion on them now is noted, although I'm going to echo your statement with a hearty "I disagree". My opinion is that they're very much worth playing (+2 Con by itself lends enough of a boost to race that they can be considered for almost any class) and you're certainly not lacking in any features, at least not enough to be called the mechanically worst race option.

[ImperiousLeader]

We get a flip through the book here:

https://youtu.be/bL9Ru9e2DAw

I didn't bother trying to pause and get a full read on the crunch, but my major takeaways:
- I love the news stories peppered throughout the book, very flavourful.
- Art is a mix of reused stuff and new, but all very pretty
- The group patron section is beefier than anticipated, of the 70 pages in Chapter 1 on character creation, about half of it is on having a group patron.
- The DM section is also quite impressive, there are some neat maps

[Makorel]

Nope, I'm fully serious. Savage Attacks is a minor damage boost to 5% of your attacks; Relentless Endurance is basically 1/long rest Healing Word. (It would be considerably better if it prevented insta-kills, but it explicitly doesn't.)

Aggressive, on the other hand, is a bonus action mobility boost which is applicable in close to 100% of hostile situations, at least if you're a melee-oriented Str fighter like the Orc stereotype. Spend fewer rounds Dashing and more rounds Attacking. It even has defensive benefits by allowing you to e.g. strafe more easily: spend your Aggressive movement moving towards the enemy, hit them a few times, then move away with your regular movement, taking only an opportunity attack in return (depending on relative movement rates, e.g. w/ Barbarian Fast Movement or Longstrider).

Orc is still on the weak side because there are plenty of other ways to get even more flexible bonus actions, but half-orc is weaker still.

As a routine player of Half-Orcs I can understand where you're coming from. Relentless Endurance isn't useful until you need it and Savage Attacks really only puts a cherry on top of your crit unless you're doing some high level Barbarian Battleaxe thing. I will say though that Relentless Endurance has absolutely saved my hide a couple of times, and was especially useful at level 1 in the Adventure's League campaign I was in.

That being said I won't knock Aggressive; more mobility is always good for a melee character. I was pretty disappointed we got Savage Fury over the Aggressive feat for Half-Orcs in Xanathar's if only because Orcs and Half-Orcs don't seem to have any abilities that overlap.

As for the Warforged armor debate I'm just glad that the armor can't be removed against your will. For me the appeal of the race was not having any "down" time. With not needing to breathe, sleep eat or be disarmored all I need to do is to make my Warforged an Eldritch Knight for Weapon Bond and I can have a character that doesn't get disabled from being able to fight.

[MaxWilson]

Well theres also all those proficiencies and the possibility of +1hp/lvl, and thats not to mention how a +2 str is likely much more useful than a floating +1.

But dwarves are slow (25' speed) and you can put the Warforged floating +1 in Dex or Cha to support archery. Plus the armor boost.

The dwarf is almost, but not quite, a worse Warforged.

My powergamer instincts are only mildly interested in Warforged, but my RP instincts would enjoy being a Warforged in a steampunk setting, and that puts Warforged in a pretty nice position: interesting but not overpowered. Good design choice.


As a routine player of Half-Orcs I can understand where you're coming from. Relentless Endurance isn't useful until you need it and Savage Attacks really only puts a cherry on top of your crit unless you're doing some high level Barbarian Battleaxe thing. I will say though that Relentless Endurance has absolutely saved my hide a couple of times, and was especially useful at level 1 in the Adventure's League campaign I was in.

Yeah, I saw a 3rd level Half Orc fighter survive a point-blank blast of dragon fire from an Adult Red, which impressed the dragon so much that he made the fighter one of his deputies. But he came within 3 HP of being vaporized instead. I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thing very often, which is why it's a good story. In the more usual case, Healing Word is as useful, unless the DM is using negative HP rules (which I actually do, so maybe I'm underestimating half-orcs--but usually when I see PCs die it is due to bad decisions and bad luck, and usually in a way such that Relentless Endurance wouldn't help, e.g. getting paralyzed while surrounded).

[T.G. Oskar]

Gonna do the race and Dragonmarks previews, though spoilered for your consideration. Do note that this is the Roll20 content, so it might change most likely.

First and foremost, AWESOME PIC. Really, kudos to whoever made the art. Changelings ain't my faves, but they look the part.

+2 Cha, +1 anything.
Gain proficiency with two of the following: Deception, Insight, Intimidation and Persuasion.
Speak Common and 2 languages of your choice.
Shapechanger, which works mostly like Disguise Self but as a real transformation.

One thing they lost from WGtE is Unsettling Visage. It's a shame, since it's not exactly the most potent ability, but it was fun and flavorful. Probably a racial feat?

One thing I miss from Kalashtar is their weird fetish for headwear. This kalashtar lady lacks pimp headbands. Where are the pimp headbands!?

+2 Wis, +1 Cha. As mentioned, they're...odd, not having an Int score, but otherwise it makes sense; they're super wise, and also meant to be charismatic.
Can speak Common and Quori, plus a language of their choice.
Advantage on Wisdom saving throws and resistance to psychic damage. This is pretty cool, since those are the main stats that affect...oh wait, no advantage on INTELLIGENCE saves. So Intellect Devourers, those little pesky walking brains that can be a menace to an unprepared party, still can affect them. Also - Synaptic Static can still be a threat to them, even though they halve psychic damage.
Mind Link, allowing you to speak telepathically equal to (10 x level, up to 200 ft.), and you can give that power to a creature of your choice so it can answer to you. You can only communicate with creatures that can understand at least one language, though you don't need to SHARE that language.
No trance like Elves, but they are immune to spells that require dreaming. They are still vulnerable to Sleep spells. I repeat; they are STILL vulnerable to Sleep spells.


In short: they get a minor focus on Charisma, but lose the free skill proficiency advantage they got. On the other hand, Mind Meld has turned into the ultimate communications ability, allowing you to essentially spread out commands from your leader to the rest of your party. I'd say this is the race with the least changes.

Oh, goodness, that image is hideous! I'll take Ms. Mel Gibson with tits and sideburns any time of the day. Any. Time. *shudders*

NO base ability score increase. Yes, I'm kidding you not. Shifters do NOT get a base ability score increase like other races do. This probably means the subraces get all the ability score increases.
Darkvision
Shifting, which is their key trait. You activate it as a bonus action, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you dismiss it. You can use it 1/short or long rest. The base feature is temporary HP equal to your level + your Constitution modifier, so you become VERY beefy. Your shifting varies depending on your race, which was exactly how shifters operated originally.

As mentioned, Shifters have subraces - four, at that. Two of them are iconic (Beasthide and Longtooth), the others are known but named differently (Swiftstride as the iconic Longrunner, and Wildhunt as the...well, I think it was the Dream-whatever shifter?) Here are the four subraces:

+2 Con, +1 Str.
Proficiency in Athletics
When shifting, you get +1d6 additional temporary HP, and +1 to AC.


These are the tanky shifters, probably related to the Bear. They're tough to kill, and when shifting, they're even TOUGHER to kill. Perfect for that Barbarian, or tanky Fighter like a Cavalier, that needs to survive one more hit.

+2 Str, +1 Dex
Proficiency in Intimidation
While shifting, you can make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action, dealing 1d6 + Strength worth of piercing damage.


An odd choice for Monks, but do note that they get to use Unarmed Strikes, so you can allow yourself to bite while shifting. Otherwise, it's perfect for any class that wants an extra attack. Curiously enough, if you don't mind the lack of Charisma or Constitution, they make interesting Paladins, as their better Unarmed Strike damage gains the benefit of Improved Divine Smite and, if you have it, Divine Favor.

+2 Dex, +1 Cha
Proficiency in Acrobatics
While shifted, your walking speed increases by 10 ft., and you can use your reaction to move away 10 ft. from you when a creature ends its move within 5 ft. of you, without causing OAs.


High Dex? Check. Proficiency in Acrobatics, arguably one of the rarest proficiencies to get? Check. Better movement speed while shifting? Check. This makes for a great anything - a great Bard, a great Sorcerer, a great Warlock, even a great Paladin if you think about it.

+2 Wis, +1 Dex
Proficiency in Survival
While shifting, gain advantage on Wisdom checks, and no creature can make attack rolls with advantage against you within 30 ft., unless incapacitated.


Again, amazing for Rangers and Monks, because it deals with the scores they most likely need. That ability to just negate advantage is sweet. Also - sweet Druids.

In short, you get almost four different races in one. Either you get a tanky Bear, a savage Wolf, a fast Cheetah or an observant Owl. Shifters are one of my favorite races, and they're pretty decent if you think about it. That said, Shifters do get a bit of a nerf, in that they aren't automatically proficient with Perception, and both Swiftstride and Wildhunt Shifters lose some class features.

Sleek, slim Terminators. Yep. No wonder Warforged are the face of the Eberron campaign setting.


+2 Con, +1 any score. This is pretty awesome, since they can be just about anything, if only because Constitution is such a valuable score.
Free skill proficiency and tool proficiency. So, again, as mentioned before, all Warforged are Envoys, ,but without the integrated toolkit. Still, it's pretty cool, since they feel like they can be customized as you like.
One free language of your choice. Now, THIS is new, since Warforged usually lacked the ability to speak any other language than Common, and that was during the time where high Intelligence gave you bonus languages.
Constructed Resilience. Alright, this is difficult to explain, but I'll try to make it easy: you have the same advantages and resistances to poison as dwarves, plus the immunity to magical sleep of elves, plus immunity to disease, and you don't need to eat, drink or breathe. So, you're pretty much implacable. Emphasis on pretty much, because...
Sentry's Rest means you need to spend at least 6 hours inert and motionless when taking a long rest. So, while you don't sleep at all (you're not unconscious as a sleeping character would), you still need to do nothing for those six hours. A far cry from Coffeelocks.
Integrated Protection, arguably the most controversial change they did. As mentioned, instead of a modular protection, you get a simple +1 to AC, and you can integrate armor that you're proficient with. That said, you don't get better mobility or the ability to ignore certain traits of armor, so you still get disadvantage on Stealth checks with most medium or heavy armor, and you still need Str 13 to wear chain mail, or Str 15 to wear heavier armor. One thing, though, is that you can rest while wearing armor, which is important because most people don't recall that sleeping with heavy armor doesn't allow you to recover from exhaustion.

Before saying anything: Integrated Protection is a rollback to the original version of the Warforged, giving you +1 to AC. This is great for most classes, including Barbarians and Monks, since they can still take advantage of their class features and get better armor in exchange. What I do miss is the loss of subrace features. After Eberron was released, some variant Warforged were released, such as the Psiforged (a Warforged with "innate" psionic potential) and the Warforged Scout (all the benefits of the Warforged in a smaller, sleeker package!). Warforged Juggernauts weren't a variant of the race, but rather a way to make Warforged more like constructs, and the options offered in WGtE made them pretty awesome. I think the lack of a 'vanilla' Warforged killed things a little, so they decided to go as vanilla as possible.

Before going with the Dragonmarks, I have to mention one little thing: Spells of the Mark. This is what jaappleton was speaking about. If you have Spellcasting OR Pact Magic, you add these spells to your list. Arguably, it works like how Warlocks get spells, so don't get too happy with it. They also follow the same format: two spells for every level up to 4th, then one 5th level spell. No less, no more.

Can you SMEEEELLLLLL...what poison...is in the cooking... *plays The Rock WWE theme*

+2 Wisdom, +1 any. Basically replaces your scores. Do note this.
Darkvision, Fey Ancestry remain, but Skill Versatility is replaced with all they get from this "subrace".
+1d4 on Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Insight) checks. So, they keep the Inspiration dice mechanic, but only to two skills related to the mark.
Can cast Detect Magic and Detect Poison 1/long rest, and then See Invisibility 1/long rest at 3rd level. Spellcasting ability is Int, and you don't need Material Components for that.


1st: Detect Evil and Good, Detect Poison and Disease
2nd: Detect Thoughts, Find Traps
3rd: Clairvoyance, Nondetection
4th: Arcane Eye, Divination
5th: Legend Lore


Overall, a great increase from the original version, since they keep their skill with languages and the ability score improvements are much better.

Yup, they can find Dragonshards, alright.

+2 Wis, +1 Con. Makes them great Clerics, Druids, Rangers and Monks. Who would have thought of it?
+1d4 on Wisdom (Perception or Survival) checks
Can cast Hunter's Mark 1/long rest, and eventually Locate Object 1/long rest. You read that right. HUNTER'S. MARK.
They can speak Common and...Goblin? Don't ask.



1st: Faerie Fire, Longstrider
2nd: Locate Animals or Plants, Locate Object
3rd: Clairvoyance, Speak with Plants
4th: Divination, Locate Creature
5th: Commune with Nature.


So they lose Imprint Prey (which was kinda like a souped-up Favored Enemy, letting you essentially sense your targeted quarry by getting twice the result from your d4, plus a special sense ability when you were very close, allowing you to ignore half cover and invisibility), but they get one use of free Hunter's Mark. Pretty fair trade, though Half-Orcs also lose their few racial traits. Then again, judging by the conversations, YMMV with Half-Orcs.

(Do note that Koebel skipped on the Human version, but as with the original incarnation, both Humans and Half-Orcs get the same Mark, so most likely they get the same benefits. I say "most likely" because something will differ: probably, Half-Orcs get Darkvision and Humans won't, but their ability scores will be different. Again, this is from the preview, so take it with a grain of salt.)

I choose you! Magebred Owlbear!

+2 Wis, +1 any score
+1d4 on Wisdom (Animal Handling) or Intelligence (Nature) checks
Animal Friendship and Speak with Animals 1/SHORT or long rest, using Wis as your score. Note that this is different from other marks, which only get these benefits per LONG rest only.
At 3rd level, you can target beasts or monstrosities with either Animal Friendship or Speak with Animals. Do note that you don't need to use your own versions.

1st: Animal Friendship, Speak with Animals (i.e., you get the spells you can cast for free, so that your 3rd level ability remains useful)
2nd: Beast Sense, Calm Emotions
3rd: Beacon of Hope (!?), Conjure Animals (!!)
4th: Aura of Life, Dominate Beast
5th: Awaken

Roughly equal compared to the WGtE version, replacing Expert Handling which worked wonders with animal companions and mounts for Speak with Animals, plus the new spells. Do note that they get a summoning spell as part of their added spell list. That said, unless you're playing a Cleric, you won't get much mileage out of this, because these are spells that Druids have (other than Beacon of Hope and Aura of Life), and Rangers won't get much use of this either.

I'm not sure if I've seen this art before, but to be honest - it's super awesome. You see a horrifying monster at the distance, and the halfling is just doing his job, all cocky and everything... Yup, hold the fort guys; the battle may yet be won!

+2 Dex, +1 Wis. Again, great for Rangers and Monks.
+1d4 on Wisdom (Medicine) checks or any ability check when using a herbalism kit.
Cure Wounds 1/long rest, and eventually Lesser Restoration 1/long rest, using Wis as your spellcasting ability.


1st: Cure Wounds, Healing Word
2nd: Lesser Restoration, Prayer of Healing
3rd: Aura of Vitality (!!!!!), Mass Healing Word
4th: Aura of Purity, Aura of Life
5th: Greater Restoration


As Halflings, they keep Brave, Halfling Nimbleness and Lucky. As Dragonmarks go, this one has the best spell list, hands down. You'd have thought, "oh, Clerics get most of these spells"...then you see Aura of Vitality. Oh boy, Life Clerics...wait, but what about Circle of Shepherd Druids!? They actually get Prayer of Healing AND Mass Healing Word, AND Aura of Vitality. If I wanted to see something any more vomit-inducing than a Life Cleric 2/Shepherd Druid 18 doing supercharged bonus action heals and extraordinary AoE bonus action heals, I would have chain-gated Solars. They lost their cool Healing Touch feature (spend one HD, restore an ally by that amount 1/short or long rest), but this is the mark that got the most brutal buffs. And you don't even need the UA to get those...

Uh...wha!? That's the least representative art I've seen. So, the halfling is in full armor, showing a beer gut, happy...but nothing else? Boy, that was a missed opportunity...

+2 Dex, +1 Cha. Basically, same as Lightfoots.
+1d4 on Charisma (Persuasion) checks and ability checks involving brewer's supplies or cook's utensils.
Prestidigitation for free, Purify Food and Drink and Unseen Servants 1/long rest, using Cha as your spellcasting ability.


1st: Goodberry, Sleep
2nd: Aid, Calm Emotions
3rd: Create Food and Water, Leomund's Tiny Hut
4th: Aura of Purity, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
5th: Hallow


Well, it's...a thing? I'll be honest; I never was attracted to the Mark of Hospitality, but this version is arguably better than any other ever presented. For one, it has a good cantrip and a good spell accessible, it has an interesting spell list containing everything you need to make your adventuring life more pleasant... Thing is, I see this as a wonderful ability to have on an NPC, not a PC. With Brave, Lucky and Halfling Nimbleness, you could have the equivalent of the son of Nodwick and Piffany! (Add the strength of a henchmen, and they'd be the ultimate henchmen!) ...Oh, I see it now!

Aww, they're reusing old art once again? FYI, the art is from the Dragonmarked splat from 3.5; the guy with the Warforged behind as a bodyguard.

+2 Int, +1 any score.
+1d4 with Arcana or any check involving artisan's tools.
Gain proficiency with one artisan's tool of your choice.
Know the Mending cantrip, and can use Magic Weapon 1/long rest, BUT it lasts for 1 hour and requires no concentration. Int for spellcasting ability.



1st: Identify, Tenser's Floating Disk
2nd: Continual Flame, Magic Weapon
3rd: Conjure Barrage, Elemental Weapon
4th: Fabricate, Stone Shape
5th: Creation

Wait, Magic Weapon without Concentration!? Well...it's basically the same as the original WGtE class feature, except they lose the ability to enchant armor. Yup. You also no longer get any Wizard cantrip you want, BTW. Still, it's a pretty fair amount of features, good for any Artificer, or Wizard, or even Eldritch Knight Fighter.

Oh look, D&D is now playing with portals! Also: tell me that's not Commoner Chell.

+2 Dex, +1 any. Curious that humans usually get +1 to any score.
Speed increase to 35 ft. So...basically the same as Wood Elves?
+1d4 on all Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks and any ability checks to maneuver land vehicles.
Misty Step 1/long rest, with DEXTERITY as your spellcasting ability. Oh boy...reminds me of the Jaunter. Good times.


1st: Expeditious Retreat, Jump
2nd: Misty Step, Pass without Trace
3rd; Blink, Phantom Steed
4th: Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
5th: Teleportation Circle

This version is DRASTICALLY different. No longer you get a free semi-Dimension Door, your speed is nerfed to 35 ft. instead of 40 ft., lost the ability to ignore difficult terrain while Dashing...overall, it feels more like a nerf than a buff, but the spells you get are pretty thematic. One key thing is that, if you're a caster, no matter what kind, you can create permanent Teleportation Circles. Still...not very impressed. Feel kinda disappointed by the nerf, IMO.

OBJECTION! Witness the majesty of the gnome writer known only as Phelonious...the Writer! TAKE THAT! (No, seriously, the art is basically a gnome wizard, with a crystal ball, channeling Phoenix Wright.)

+2 Int, 1 Cha. Oh boy, just the one specific combination of features that makes no sense virtually anywhere!
+1d4 on Intelligence (History) checks or ability checks using calligrapher's supplies.
Message for free, and Comprehend Languages 1/long rest; eventually, you can cast Magic Mouth 1/long rest at 3rd level, using Int as your spellcating ability.


1st: Comprehend Languages, Illusionary Script
Animal Messenger, Silence
Sending, Tongues
Arcane Eye, Confusion
Dream


They keep Gnome Cunning and Darkvision, as per the base race, but they replaced the ability to work with forgery kits and the extra language for...Motor Mouth? Seriously? (Oh, and the spells; they DO get Silence and Confusion as free spells, though.) Arguably, it's the race that has the least synergy with anything, because Wizards already get most of these spells, and...well, you *could* make a weird Artificer...

Uhh...it's...decent art? To be honest, it's not like the amazing art for the Changeling (or the Goblin; that art is fun as heck), but it helps show how a Blademark would look like. Has the right mark, looks like a warrior, but nothing else.

+2 Con, +1 Wis. Yes - the only Human-based Dragonmark with fixed ability scores. Weirdly enough, CONSTITUTION gets the bigger buff, even though Sentinels were pretty heavy on Wisdom.
+1d4 on Wisdom (Insight or Perception) checks.
Shield 1/long rest, using Wis as your spellcasting ability.
1/long rest, you get exactly what the Oath of the Crown Paladin gets at 7th level (swap places, you get the full brunt of the attack), except it ONLY applies to Attack rolls.


1st: Compelled Duel, Shield of Faith
2nd: Warding Bond, Zone of Truth
3rd: Counterspell, Protection from Energy
4th: Death Ward, Guardian of Faith
5th: Bigby's hand

Hoo, boy - and I thought Mark of Passage got it hard. Sentinel got nerfed HARD. See, originally, they added that little d4 to all Initiative checks, which was AWESOME. And of course, relatively OP. Furthermore, they got Blade Ward for free, Shield 1/SHORT or Long rest, and Vigilant Guardian was essentially an action you took to designate someone as your ward, giving you the Oath of the Crown 7th level ability BESIDES advantage on Wisdom (Insight or Perception) checks to sense your ward. As a Fighter, I seriously doubt you'd get this, but I could still see it as a Paladin; just...not a Crown Paladin, which already suffered with the UA, only to get gutted mercilessly with this. A Redemption Paladin, with Mark of Sentinel on top, gets nearly ALL the spells you want from Oath of the Crown, PLUS some more (Bigby's Hand being one), while having better subclass features. However, the +1 to Wis is...well, fair, but not invaluable, considering they don't use Wisdom for anything. You know who gets a fun boost from this? Rangers. No, seriously. Rangers. They get some good defensive spells, two sweet trap spells on Guardian of Faith and Bigby's Hand, and a bonus to Wisdom and the ever-useful Constitution. But yeah. Sheesh.

Again, repeating the art? Same as with the Mark of Making, the illustration they use is from the cover of Dragonmarked.

+2 Dex, +1 Cha.
+1d4 to Charisma (Performance) or Dexterity (Stealth) checks
Minor Illusion cantrip for free, and eventually Invisibility 1/long rest at 3rd level afterwards, using Cha as your spellcasting ability.


1st: Disguise Self, Silent Image
2nd: Darkness, Pass without Trace
3rd: Clairvoyance, Major Image
4th: Greater Invisibility, Hallucinatory Terrain
5th: Mislead


Pretty huge changes, dropping the ability to use Hide as a bonus action and the free proficiency with a musical instrument or the Performance skill for 1/LR Invisibility and the new spells. Do note that Mark of Shadow Elves don't get Invisibility on their spell list, if they have one, instead getting eventual Greater Invisibility. They make pretty decent Warlocks, if you think about it, but the choice of spells makes them relatively poor Bards.

So...you're a Wizard. Skinny, elvish, with a lustrous beard and MONSTROUS HANDS. Seriously; have you seen the claws on this guy!? Those things can't qualify as nails!

+2 Cha, +1 Dex.
+1d4 to Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks or navigator's tools
Resistance to lightning damage. Yep. Full-on resistance.
Gust cantrip for free, and Gust of Wind 1/long rest, using Cha as your spellcasting ability.


1st: Feather Fall, Fog Cloud
2nd: Gust of Wind, Levitate
3rd: Sleet Storm, Wind Wall
4th: Conjure Minor Elemental, Control Water
5th: Conjure Elemental

Props to the dev team for keeping the theme real. Mark of Storm wasn't meant to provide spells that dealt damage, but instead spells that dealt with the elements related to a storm: lightning, wind and...water, yeah. So, they get a lot of spells related to that, which are pretty useful and spread out - minor crowd control, utility spells, and two summoning spells that can conjure just about ANY elemental. They lose the swim speed, though; IMO, it's...well, it's a loss, but nothing very important to lose anyways.

Oh, boy. You don't see art of a dwarf. You see art of a vault. Oh, by the Silver Flame!

+2 Con, +1 Int. Hey, a dwarf can finally make a decent Int caster! Like...an Artificer! Or a Wizard. Or an Eldritch Knight Fighter! Or an Arcane Trickster Rogue!
+1d4 on all Intelligence (Investigation) checks and ability checks using thieves' tools
Alarm and Mage Armor 1/long rest, and eventually Arcane Lock 1/long rest, using Int as your spellcasting ability. (Why not Constitution...?)


1st: Alarm, Armor of Agathys (WTF!?)
2nd: Arcane Lock, Knock (hehe!)
3rd: Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle
4th: Leomund's Secret Chest, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
5th: Antilife Shell


You keep the free proficiency with either smith's tools or brewer's supplies, Darkvision, the resistances and Stonecunning, since this counts as a subrace. That said - it's pretty byzantine to see a Mark of Warding Dwarf, since they are suited to various specific classes; as Artificers or Rogues, they can exploit this a little bit better, allowing them to get spells that they might not otherwise have, and the theme's there. I'll admit I'm impressed by Armor of Agathys, since I honestly thought that'd be a Mark of Sentinel spell. Plus, you get free Mage Armor, which saves you at least one spell slot.

After all that infodump, I can say: it's a mixed bag. Warforged are no longer as modular, the Marks of Passage and Sentinel got nerfed (the latter almost to oblivion), the Mark of Healing is bonkers, but for the most part, they are pretty similar to the WGtE incarnation. If I'd change anything, ti'd be:

Give Changelings back their Unsettling Visage reaction. It was cool, and allowed them to use their main features effectively.
Make Warforged ignore some of the armor penalties with Integrated Protection. Like...maybe have a Warforged ignore disadvantage on Stealth checks while wearing armor, since your body itself partially covers and mutes the movable armor pieces.
Have some Dragonmark spells you can cast be rechargeable on a Short Rest. For example: Shield as 1/long rest is painful, because you'll rarely use it at all, ever. If it were Shield 1/short rest, it can be more palatable to use. Same for Misty Step, and most reaction-based spells.


Oh, and as a warning: Artificers kept the Soul of Artifice capstone, and made it even more brutal. You're reduced to 0 HP? Drop one of your Artificer Infusions (of which you get four, IIRC) as a reaction and basically tank the attack completely, as long as you're not killed outright.

[Arkhios]

...OK. Whoa...

Just watched The Gaming Gang video and combined with T.G. Oskar's compilation of racial information, I must say I'm officially HYPED.


Not just because of the races, but also because the small glimpse I had on the magic items.

To name a few, there's Arcane Propulsion Arm (it's both a melee magic weapon and it has Thrown property. Yeah. It does exactly what you might think it does: you throw your hand at an opponent and then it returns! :smallbiggrin:) and Prosthetic Limb. Both being wondrous magic items that replace a limb. The latter one is a bit special in that if you have multiple prosthetic limbs they all count as a single magic item you need to attune with. So, they don't each take their own attunement slots! Since buying magic items is an established possibility in Eberron, technically the only restriction on making a "self-forged" is now money, because magic items in general are also established as widely available.


Can't wait to get my hands on my own (alternate cover) book next week!

[stoutstien]

Man o man do those dragonmarks change the game. I love seeing so many new +2 wisdom options and a lot of floating +1s I think it's going to shake VHumans and half elf's position on top of the pile.

Halflings healing wizard for the ultimate support build all the way.

[jaappleton]

SNIP

Between the two of us, I think we pretty much covered all the player options in the book (except Group Patrons, but that's not individual player specific).

Nice work, Oskar!

[Damon_Tor]

We get a flip through the book here:

https://youtu.be/bL9Ru9e2DAw

I didn't bother trying to pause and get a full read on the crunch, but my major takeaways:
- I love the news stories peppered throughout the book, very flavourful.
- Art is a mix of reused stuff and new, but all very pretty
- The group patron section is beefier than anticipated, of the 70 pages in Chapter 1 on character creation, about half of it is on having a group patron.
- The DM section is also quite impressive, there are some neat maps

Pausing to oogle the artificer, because that's where my interest lies. Going to focus on changes from the latest UA, and stuff not mentioned in the OP:

1. More Infusions Known, more Infusions per day. The UA had it at 3-8 known and 2-5 per day. Published, it's 4-12 known and 2-6 per day.
2. The right tool for the job lets you create an artisan's tool of your choice BUT you have to already have Tinker's Tools to do so. This doesn't allow you to arm yourself from nothing in a jail cell.
3. Tool expertise is pushed back to level 6 (it had been at level 3). You replace rogues as the trap-disarming specialist less easily.
4. Flash of Genius: It CAN be used on yourself or another creature within 30 feet. Adds your int mod to an ability check as a reaction IntmodXDaily.
5. At level 10, craft any common or uncommon magic item at quarter speed and half cost. This replaces each subclass being able to craft a specific subset of magic items cheaply and quickly
6. Spell Storing Item: Gained at level 11, which is huge. One major change: the SSI explicitly requires the user to concentrate on the spell if it requires concentration, though I'll note it still doesn't require you to "cast" the spell, co creatures otherwise unable to cast spells can still use it. A more subtle, but perhaps more important, change: the SSI needs to be "held", whereas in the UA the items had to be "in hand". This means creatures without hands capable of holding items in teeth or claws (such as familiars, or a paladin's mount) can use the item freely. This is massive.
7. The subclasses only gain one additional tool proficiency, not two. These proficiencies explicitly allow you to learn a different proficiency inf you already have it.

Alchemist
1. The experimental Elixir has some interesting effects, though the random nature of the free 1/day elixir is... well, it's annoying. But created using a 1st level slot, it's kind of great. Concentration-free Alter Self a free +1 1d6 magic weapon, after all, and one that can be used for unarmed attacks. Though it only lasts 10 minutes. Would make a monk's life easier in the early levels. At level 9 it also gives 2d6+Intmod temp hp.
2. They get int damage to four damage types, acid, poison, fire and necrotic. It used to be just acid and poison, so this is a nice change.

Artillarist
1. The Cannon lasts an hour now, up from 10 minutes
2. It can be made to fit in your hand, or even potentially be mounted on your armor, so the mobility issues are gone.
3. The arcane firearm is an improvement over the wand prototype. Most notably, nothing prevents you from using an already magic wand or staff as your arcane firearm. 1d8 extra damage is swingier than +intmod to damage, but it will multiply on crits, and that's a good thing. It also applies to non-cantrip spells.

Battlesmith
1. They get shield instead of searing smite! Oh my. They also swapped out some other crappy "smite" spells for conjure barrage (meh) and fire shield (nice). They retain Warding Bond: my Forcefield Generator TSAR remains operational.

Infusions
1. The "basic" +1 infusions improve to +2 at level 10 instead of level 12
2. Homunculus Servant: This is an infusion now: any artificer can make one of these, and it's basically a super-familiar, though you'll need to use your bonus action to get it to do anything useful in combat. It comes equipped with a ranged weapon attack, but as noted you need to use your bonus action to make this happen.
3. The artificer can craft the Headband of Intellect and Gauntlets of Ogre Power at level 10, down from level 12

Neat!

[jaappleton]

I'm seeing multiple reports that the Arcane Weapon spell did NOT make it in.

This greatly upsets me. It was so much better than Hunter's Mark or Hex because it applied to your weapon, not a specific target, so after you cast it, you were done. Didn't need to move it around. AND it made your weapon count as magical for bypassing resistance.

It was a lot for a 1st level spell, but... Damn.

[stoutstien]

I'm seeing multiple reports that the Arcane Weapon spell did NOT make it in.

This greatly upsets me. It was so much better than Hunter's Mark or Hex because it applied to your weapon, not a specific target, so after you cast it, you were done. Didn't need to move it around. AND it made your weapon count as magical for bypassing resistance.

It was a lot for a 1st level spell, but... Damn.

If it didn' make it I would understand. It was a tad much for a lv 1 spell. I think with the extra infusions and boost to the Subclasses at lower levels damage will be fine.

I have not caught a glimpse of the finalized alchemist spell list at all yet.

[SaintRidley]

Oof on the Warforged stuff. Pretty well kills my wrestler character if we switch over to it.

[stoutstien]

Anybody catch the new orc stats? Also is goblin now the most represented race regardless of splat book?

[jaappleton]

Anybody catch the new orc stats? Also is goblin now the most represented race regardless of splat book?

I believe Orc is +2 Str, +1 Con

Mark of Finding Half Orc is detailed in Oskar's post above.

[stoutstien]

I believe Orc is +2 Str, +1 Con

Mark of Finding Half Orc is detailed in Oskar's post above.

I can read the stats of orc but I can't make out the racial features. most I'm just being patient I have it pre-ordered so I really only have a few days to wait but as much snow as I've gotten this year already makes me think it will be delayed

[jaappleton]

I can read the stats of orc but I can't make out the racial features. most I'm just being patient I have it pre-ordered so I really only have a few days to wait but as much snow as I've gotten this year already makes me think it will be delayed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMgHdUnUko

34:54 is where you want to pause it.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm seeing multiple reports that the Arcane Weapon spell did NOT make it in.

That would be rough, but I get it. There are a bunch of ways the artificer was being set up as a big "**** you" to rangers, and that spell was one of them.

EDIT: If you look at the Artificer Spell list (7:06 on the linked video) you can see that it is indeed missing from the list. That's too bad, but like I said, I get it.

[KorvinStarmast]

That would be rough, but I get it. There are a bunch of ways the artificer was being set up as a big "**** you" to rangers, and that spell was one of them.
Yeah, Artificer remains, to my view, only suitable to Eberron.


Level 10 is when you can attune to 4 items.
Level 14 is Magic Item Savant: Attune to up to 5 items, and ignore all class, race and spell and level requirements for using or attuning to magic items.
At 18th, attune to up to 6 items.
Level 20 gets you +1 to all saves per magic item you're attuned to, and if you drop to 0 HP but not killed outright, you can use your reaction to end an infusion and instead drop to 1 HP. (I do believe Death Saves are in fact saving throws) I detest this capstone. It is waay unbalanced vis a vis anyone else. I made mention of that in my feedback to WoTC in the survey.

[Comaward]

Okay, I just spent 30 minutes “translating” a screenshot I took of Adam Koebel’s YouTube video previewing Eberron: Rising from the Last War.

This is the section on the Lord of Blades.
Please keep in mind that it may not be the actual text (as I couldn’t find an option for a better video quality):

The Lord of Blades is a Warforged warlord who has broken off ties with his former masters. He has established a nation for his people deep in the Mournland, centered on a grand fortress where Warforged from all over Khorvaire can come and feel a sense of belonging. No one knows what the Lord of Blades plans for his followers, but many fear that he intends to build a legion of Warforged zealots, primed to march from the Mournland to unleash destruction on their former masters.

Some tales assert that the Lord of Blades led the Warforged armies of Cyre in the Last War. Others cast him as a newer Warforged, perhaps the last to come out of the Cannith creation forges before the Thronehold Accords led to their dismantling. One story claims the Lord of Blades caused the destruction of Cyre and warns that he intends to repeat the Day of Mourning in each of the remaining five nations.
Whatever the truth, he has become a beacon for Warforged everywhere.

Next up, Lady Illmarrow. That one is much longer and is probably gonna give me a headache...

[Protolisk]

I detest this capstone. It is waay unbalanced vis a vis anyone else. I made mention of that in my feedback to WoTC in the survey.

What is unbalanced by getting something at level 20 for only oneself that Paladin's get and share to nearby allies at level 6, and even more allies at level 18? The protection from death also reduces their infusions, which are probably providing their attunements, so they lose effectiveness as the enemies are breaking more of their toys, not killing them. But they can only do it once per turn, because it takes their reaction.

This is a far cry from Barbarians and Moon Druids going infinite rage and wild shape.

[HolyDraconus]

The changes to the Warforge is just ew. The wording on their integrated ability makes it now that you ARE wearing armor and suffer the ramifications of it. No more druids with comparable AC Warforge: you can't wear metal. No more barbarians that don't want to rely entirely on being naked for AC: you can't rage in armor properly. Add in that the sub races are gone, making everyone a generic envoy, and it feels like a dwarf without the speed drop. Except dwarves still get things for being a dwarf, while a warforge is.. meh. Maybe they could move the missing features to the Docent?

[stoutstien]

Yeah, Artificer remains, to my view, only suitable to Eberron.

I detest this capstone. It is waay unbalanced vis a vis anyone else. I made mention of that in my feedback to WoTC in the survey.

It's a strong cap stone but not any better than barbarian, druid, or paladin. Good capstones make multiclassing a real choice.

[Damon_Tor]

I detest this capstone. It is waay unbalanced vis a vis anyone else. I made mention of that in my feedback to WoTC in the survey.

The save bonus is only a little better than a self-only paladin aura (+6 instead of +5) and keeping yourself standing when things would otherwise kill you is an inferior version of the Zealot feature, one that eats up your resources. I don't really see the problem. Several of the Paladin capstones are much better than this, the fighter's 4th attack is better than this, the Barbarian's +4 to Str and Con is better than this. Most casters have worse capstones, that's absolutely true, but they have been able to play with Wish for 3 levels so I expect it all evens out.

[Rukelnikov]

If whats presented in this thread is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, this is Ravnica Backgrounds levels power creep.

The new races are extremely powerful, not in line with the previous ones in the least, Mark of Healing, Mark of Sentinel and Mark of Warding are ridiculously OP.

Compare the the Warlock's Patrons to what the Mark races grant, 10 spells added to your list vs 8-10 spells known, with the added benefit of allowing you to freely multiclass, since you don't need 9 levels in a single spellcasting class to gain access to 5th lvl spells. And as if that wasn't enough they all get some fixed free castings, and in some cases awesome abilities on top.

I like the idea of Race having a greater impact on the character, and I'd love for this to be the level of power races grant to your character in 5.5, but currently I don't think they can be mixed with standard races in the same sense that Ravnica backgrounds can't be mixed with standard ones.

Of course there are still lots of builds that will benefit from other races more, but the builds that can make use of what the race brings, which are almost, but not limited to, EVERY half caster or full caster, are getting much more from it than what those other builds are getting, which most of the time, can be supplanted with an ASI.

This is power creep, because you are strengthening the already strongest builds.

Aside the races which seem egregiously out of line to me (but hope its an indication that 5.5e will have all races in line with that, in which case it will be awesome), Artificer is also very OP. 6 Atunnemet slots in a system without typed bonus is ridiculously strong, and that coupled with the +1 to all saves per attuned item...

Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

I'll try to read the book once its out, but the preview looks like a massive power creep, very in line with the latest UA's we have been getting, which may be indicating of this being the first handbook written with the new direction Wizards wants to take the game in mind.

[jaappleton]

If whats presented in this thread is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, this is Ravnica Backgrounds levels power creep.

The new races are extremely powerful, not in line with the previous ones in the least, Mark of Healing, Mark of Sentinel and Mark of Warding are ridiculously OP.

Compare the the Warlock's Patrons to what the Mark races grant, 10 spells added to your list vs 8-10 spells known, with the added benefit of allowing you to freely multiclass, since you don't need 9 levels in a single spellcasting class to gain access to 5th lvl spells. And as if that wasn't enough they all get some fixed free castings, and in some cases awesome abilities on top.

I like the idea of Race having a greater impact on the character, and I'd love for this to be the level of power races grant to your character in 5.5, but currently I don't think they can be mixed with standard races in the same sense that Ravnica backgrounds can't be mixed with standard ones.

Of course there are still lots of builds that will benefit from other races more, but the builds that can make use of what the race brings, which are almost, but not limited to, EVERY half caster or full caster, are getting much more from it than what those other builds are getting, which most of the time, can be supplanted with an ASI.

This is power creep, because you are strengthening the already strongest builds.

Aside the races which seem egregiously out of line to me (but hope its an indication that 5.5e will have all races in line with that, in which case it will be awesome), Artificer is also very OP. 6 Atunnemet slots in a system without typed bonus is ridiculously strong, and that coupled with the +1 to all saves per attuned item...

Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

I'll try to read the book once its out, but the preview looks like a massive power creep, very in line with the latest UA's we have been getting, which may be indicating of this being the first handbook written with the new direction Wizards wants to take the game in mind.

Anyone that's read any of my posts before knows I'm very much on the side of 'More player options, more archetypes, new ways to build characters, etc'.

However... Even I have to acknowledge this. This... This is a bit of an issue.

If my table allows all books, there's no reason for me to use any non-Ravnica background on a spellcaster PC because of the bonus spells granted. If my table is allowing all books, and I'm a Bard that can take a Ravnica background with one of these Dragonmarked races, and I'm a Bard... I mean, I have damn near all the spells available to me even before I get to Magical Secrets.

Sure, I'll be a Valor Bard with Armor of Agathys and Spirit Guardians available to me before I even pick a single Bard spell, sure!

[Luccan]

I mean, obvious thing to do is not allow dragonmarks outside Eberron. That doesn't necessarily fix balance issues in the setting itself, but it was pretty common in 3.X to allow Eberron material that wasn't tied too tightly to the setting (I've seen warforged, changelings, artificers, even shifters outside Eberron, but very few kalashtar and no one I know of ever allowed Dragonmarks outside the setting).

Why aren't dragonmarks something like a feat, again? Seems much simpler, you could even to the least,lesser,greater, etc. growth and set level requirements that would prevent fighters and rogues from grabbing all the goodies earlier than others if you're worried about that. Seems weird to have it as a subrace.

[Protolisk]

Aside the races which seem egregiously out of line to me (but hope its an indication that 5.5e will have all races in line with that, in which case it will be awesome), Artificer is also very OP. 6 Atunnemet slots in a system without typed bonus is ridiculously strong, and that coupled with the +1 to all saves per attuned item...

Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

Now, I'll agree with most everything else you put about the races providing spells, while the races like Orc and Warforged don't seem like much creep at all (especially with people saying Half Orc still beats orc and Dwarf is interchangable with Warforged), buuuut...

Wow, I get an entire new build, AND get these extra items added on? Wow, OF COURSE I'll take the option that's somehow both a level 20 paladin AND a level 20 artificer.

Sarcasm aside, it has to build up to that level first, meaning it's part of their level 10 and level 14 features. Second, most of those abilities are coming from their infusions. Now, yes, a campaign might be drowning them in upper level items needing attunement, but if that's the case, so could other characters? In that case most of the Artificer's infusions are't getting much out of it, either, they are wasted class features for the most part. If these items weren't from the campaign and it came from themselves from their own infusions, then the artificer needs to be selfish just to get their capstone.

Meanwhile, a Paladin, at level 6 gets half of the Artificer capstone, for free, just by having some Charisma. The other half, a Half Orc gets once per long rest, at no reaction cost, from level 0. The Artificer needs to burn their infusions, and it takes their reaction, so if they tried to use Shield that round, they can't cheat death that round. They go down no matter what. HOW is that "that" powerful.

It'd be like saying "Wow, imagine being a Ranger, but in addition to THAT, you also make yourself and everyone in 30 feet of you have +5 to all saves, and you could automatically end spells like Banishment on yourself for an action cost up to 5 times per day! AND can transform into an avatar of an oath you never chose. Because that's the features a Paladin could grant over a similar level range that builds up to that capstone.

It reminds me of Pact invocations. Wow, your class can cast ALL RITUALS? Probably because they need a specific pact and use of an invocation slot do do that. Otherwise, no, I can't. Wow, your spell caster also can use two handed weapons and smite AND is a magic weapon, for free? Yeah, because I had to spend lots of character features to get this far.

WOW, this character can get +6 to saves and cheat death 6 times? A level 6 paladin/level 11 barbarian could do similar tricks with fair CHA and CON, as they could give those saves to everyone (+3 o saves for you and a buddy is about +6 to one person) and still cheat death just by making a save, no reaction required.

After all, everyone reach level 20, and no one stays around level 6 too much.

[Rukelnikov]

Anyone that's read any of my posts before knows I'm very much on the side of 'More player options, more archetypes, new ways to build characters, etc'.

However... Even I have to acknowledge this. This... This is a bit of an issue.

If my table allows all books, there's no reason for me to use any non-Ravnica background on a spellcaster PC because of the bonus spells granted. If my table is allowing all books, and I'm a Bard that can take a Ravnica background with one of these Dragonmarked races, and I'm a Bard... I mean, I have damn near all the spells available to me even before I get to Magical Secrets.

Sure, I'll be a Valor Bard with Armor of Agathys and Spirit Guardians available to me before I even pick a single Bard spell, sure!

Me too, that's why I don't think this races are a good addition to the current state of the game.

Currently, if you are gonna play a caster, there are at least like, idk, 30 or more viable races to pick, depending on build and such? After this the selection space is reduced to 20 (or less, I didn't count how many Mark races there are), this "addition" is in fact reducing the selection space instead of enlarging it.

Yeah, of course you can pick anything you want, but anyone who wants for at least a modicum of optimization will likely have had his options reduced.


Now, I'll agree with most everything else you put about the races providing spells, while the races like Orc and Warforged don't seem like much creep at all (especially with people saying Half Orc still beats orc and Dwarf is interchangable with Warforged), buuuut...

Wow, I get an entire new build, AND get these extra items added on? Wow, OF COURSE I'll take the option that's somehow both a level 20 paladin AND a level 20 artificer.

Sarcasm aside, it has to build up to that level first, meaning it's part of their level 10 and level 14 features. Second, most of those abilities are coming from their infusions. Now, yes, a campaign might be drowning them in upper level items needing attunement, but if that's the case, so could other characters? In that case most of the Artificer's infusions are't getting much out of it, either, they are wasted class features for the most part. If these items weren't from the campaign and it came from themselves from their own infusions, then the artificer needs to be selfish just to get their capstone.

Meanwhile, a Paladin, at level 6 gets half of the Artificer capstone, for free, just by having some Charisma. The other half, a Half Orc gets once per long rest, at no reaction cost, from level 0. The Artificer needs to burn their infusions, and it takes their reaction, so if they tried to use Shield that round, they can't cheat death that round. They go down no matter what. HOW is that "that" powerful.

It'd be like saying "Wow, imagine being a Ranger, but in addition to THAT, you also make yourself and everyone in 30 feet of you have +5 to all saves, and you could automatically end spells like Banishment on yourself for an action cost up to 5 times per day! AND can transform into an avatar of an oath you never chose. Because that's the features a Paladin could grant over a similar level range that builds up to that capstone.

It reminds me of Pact invocations. Wow, your class can cast ALL RITUALS? Probably because they need a specific pact and use of an invocation slot do do that. Otherwise, no, I can't. Wow, your spell caster also can use two handed weapons and smite AND is a magic weapon, for free? Yeah, because I had to spend lots of character features to get this far.

WOW, this character can get +6 to saves and cheat death 6 times? A level 6 paladin/level 11 barbarian could do similar tricks with fair CHA and CON, as they could give those saves to everyone (+3 o saves for you and a buddy is about +6 to one person) and still cheat death just by making a save, no reaction required.

After all, everyone reach level 20, and no one stays around level 6 too much.

I think you missed a lot more blue in your text, like... all of it

[MaxWilson]

Aside the races which seem egregiously out of line to me (but hope its an indication that 5.5e will have all races in line with that, in which case it will be awesome), Artificer is also very OP. 6 Atunnemet slots in a system without typed bonus is ridiculously strong, and that coupled with the +1 to all saves per attuned item...

Dunno about you, but the 10th level ability to produce 4x the normal amount of Uncommon items in a given unit of time, coupled with the implicit setting-specific permission to create magic items, seem to me like an even bigger deal. Especially because of items that don't require attunement, like a Longbow +1 or Bag of Tricks or Wand of Magic Missile. Picture a 10th level Artificer whipping up 8 Bags of Tricks and 12 Wands of Magic Missile for the party, and on short notice the party can have 24 tigers/bears/giant boar/etc. meat shields, with no concentration cost, and by passing out Wands of Magic Missile to Tiny Servants or skeletons or technically even those tigers and bears (although no sane DM would allow that more than once) they can inflict 9 * 4.5 * 12 486 points of auto-hit force damage on whatever they want to, approximately once every other day.

This isn't exactly a class balance issue per se because a regular Evoker could do the same thing with 4x more time. It's more like the Artificer class is drawing extra attention to a wildly-imbalanced area of the 5E ruleset, and implicitly promising the players that they'll get to play around in that area of the rules. I've run campaigns where players are allowed and encouraged to adopt this kind of Going To War mentality, pulling out all the stops, and I'll say that:

(1) It's plenty of fun.

(2) It's very different from the kinds of standard Save The World adventures that this forum likes to talk about, both in style and in the required difficulty level to make the game interesting--if the DM sticks to encounters that would be Medium/Hard for a party of four PCs the game will be too easy to be enjoyable. Think less "a howling Barlgura attacks you" and more "an angry horde of a dozen howling Barlguras and buzzing Chasmes will be here in the next minute, what do you and your troops do?"

(3) Because large combats (12-50+ combatants) become more common, the DM needs rule support and/or tooling support for large fights, because if you play them out in turn-by-turn fashion using vanilla PHB initiative they are a real drag.

[stoutstien]

If whats presented in this thread is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, this is Ravnica Backgrounds levels power creep.

The new races are extremely powerful, not in line with the previous ones in the least, Mark of Healing, Mark of Sentinel and Mark of Warding are ridiculously OP.

Compare the the Warlock's Patrons to what the Mark races grant, 10 spells added to your list vs 8-10 spells known, with the added benefit of allowing you to freely multiclass, since you don't need 9 levels in a single spellcasting class to gain access to 5th lvl spells. And as if that wasn't enough they all get some fixed free castings, and in some cases awesome abilities on top.

I like the idea of Race having a greater impact on the character, and I'd love for this to be the level of power races grant to your character in 5.5, but currently I don't think they can be mixed with standard races in the same sense that Ravnica backgrounds can't be mixed with standard ones.

Of course there are still lots of builds that will benefit from other races more, but the builds that can make use of what the race brings, which are almost, but not limited to, EVERY half caster or full caster, are getting much more from it than what those other builds are getting, which most of the time, can be supplanted with an ASI.

This is power creep, because you are strengthening the already strongest builds.

Aside the races which seem egregiously out of line to me (but hope its an indication that 5.5e will have all races in line with that, in which case it will be awesome), Artificer is also very OP. 6 Atunnemet slots in a system without typed bonus is ridiculously strong, and that coupled with the +1 to all saves per attuned item...

Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

I'll try to read the book once its out, but the preview looks like a massive power creep, very in line with the latest UA's we have been getting, which may be indicating of this being the first handbook written with the new direction Wizards wants to take the game in mind.

I'd agree that some of the dragonmarks look very powerful on paper but it's nowhere close to spell granted from a background. Those backgrounds add huge mechanical boost where traditionally background give a few skill proficiencies and a mini feature.
Outside of specific builds i think the standard V Human and half elf still are leading the pack.
If anything we get to test a mini version of the last UA released with expanded spell lists for most casters.

[Rukelnikov]

Dunno about you, but the 10th level ability to produce 4x the normal amount of Uncommon items in a given unit of time, coupled with the implicit setting-specific permission to create magic items, seem to me like an even bigger deal. Especially because of items that don't require attunement, like a Longbow +1 or Bag of Tricks or Wand of Magic Missile. Picture a 10th level Artificer whipping up 8 Bags of Tricks and 12 Wands of Magic Missile for the party, and on short notice the party can have 24 tigers/bears/giant boar/etc. meat shields, with no concentration cost, and by passing out Wands of Magic Missile to Tiny Servants or skeletons or technically even those tigers and bears (although no sane DM would allow that more than once) they can inflict 9 * 4.5 * 12 486 points of auto-hit force damage on whatever they want to, approximately once every other day.

This isn't exactly a class balance issue per se because a regular Evoker could do the same thing with 4x more time. It's more like the Artificer class is drawing extra attention to a wildly-imbalanced area of the 5E ruleset, and implicitly promising the players that they'll get to play around in that area of the rules. I've run campaigns where players are allowed and encouraged to adopt this kind of Going To War mentality, pulling out all the stops, and I'll say that:

(1) It's plenty of fun.

(2) It's very different from the kinds of standard Save The World adventures that this forum likes to talk about, both in style and in the required difficulty level to make the game interesting--if the DM sticks to encounters that would be Medium/Hard for a party of four PCs the game will be too easy to be enjoyable. Think less "a howling Barlgura attacks you" and more "an angry horde of a dozen howling Barlguras and buzzing Chasmes will be here in the next minute, what do you and your troops do?"

(3) Because large combats (12-50+ combatants) become more common, the DM needs rule support and/or tooling support for large fights, because if you play them out in turn-by-turn fashion using vanilla PHB initiative they are a real drag.

I'll re-read that ability, but yeah, if it allows you to produce 12x Wand of Magic Missile, its absurd, I thought they had a limit on how many infusions they could have at a time though.

[MaxWilson]

Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

In most cases I can think of, the version with 6 Attunement slots and the Artificer's capstone looks far weaker. E.g. EK 20 vs. Fighter 20 with 6 Attunement slots + capstone, EK is clearly better. Most of the stuff the EK wants most doesn't even require attunement, and at least in a normal game you won't find enough good stuff for the extra attunement slots and save bonus to justify the lack of spellcasting/teleportation/etc. If Eberron has exceptionally common and powerful magic items that calculus could change.


I'll re-read that ability, but yeah, if it allows you to produce 12x Wand of Magic Missile, its absurd, I thought they had a limit on how many infusions they could have at a time though.

I'm not talking about infusions. I'm talking about the ability to create magic items in 1/4 the normal time and 1/2 the normal expense. (Expense for Uncommon items is low, IIRC in the 100gp range, so I'm disregarding it.)

[Justin Sane]

I'm not talking about infusions. I'm talking about the ability to create magic items in 1/4 the normal time and 1/2 the normal expense. (Expense for Uncommon items is low, IIRC in the 100gp range, so I'm disregarding it.)The Wand of Magic Missiles is an uncommon magic item.

[stoutstien]

As someone who adores support/buffing characters this has me itching to playing a ultimate force multiplier.

How decked out can a commoner get with a lv 12 artificer?

[MaxWilson]

The Wand of Magic Missiles is an uncommon magic item.

Yes, it is, and post #76 states that the Artificer can:

5. At level 10, craft any common or uncommon magic item at quarter speed and half cost. This replaces each subclass being able to craft a specific subset of magic items cheaply and quickly

(Clearly this means in one-quarter the normal time, not quarter speed.)

Ergo, Wands of Magic Missile, Bags of Tricks, Longbows +1 are fair game.

[jaappleton]

As someone who adores support/buffing characters this has me itching to playing a ultimate force multiplier.

How decked out can a commoner get with a lv 12 artificer?

Ask Taryon Darrington.

[Rukelnikov]

In most cases I can think of, the version with 6 Attunement slots and the Artificer's capstone looks far weaker. E.g. EK 20 vs. Fighter 20 with 6 Attunement slots + capstone, EK is clearly better. Most of the stuff the EK wants most doesn't even require attunement, and at least in a normal game you won't find enough good stuff for the extra attunement slots and save bonus to justify the lack of spellcasting/teleportation/etc. If Eberron has exceptionally common and powerful magic items that calculus could change.

Well, it may have to do with my groups playstyle, but my 17th lvl sorlock has a Staff of Power, a RotArchmage, RotPK +3, Cube of Force(familiar), If I could get 3 more attunement slots, I could likely improve my protections, or get some boots of flying, idk, I think they make even more of a difference in a Martial than a caster.

Gimme like 20 mins, Ill see what I can build for a FTR with 6 attunements.


I'm not talking about infusions. I'm talking about the ability to create magic items in 1/4 the normal time and 1/2 the normal expense. (Expense for Uncommon items is low, IIRC in the 100gp range, so I'm disregarding it.)

I'm not seeing it in jaap's OP, was it post somewhere else?

If I understand correctly its what the UA artificar had that let you create magic items cheaper and faster? If that's the case, yeah 4x cheaper and faster is a lot, but depends heavily on how easy it is to create magic items to begin with. Is it like 3e? Then yeah, its OP AF. If it is more like, you know the plans for this, these, and that magic items, if you want to create something outside of those you need to get or devise the plans, then its akin to a Magic Item spellbook, where your plans known heavily dictate the kind of artificer you are, still terrifyingly powerful, but not as versatile (similar to what in 3e was defined as the diff between T1 and T2).

A bit OT, when we do have combat after lvl 7 or so, they tend to be like one Dx10 or something combat per session, so this developed a "meta" in which we generally having to plan a lot for most encounters we're going to tackle, since when it is head on it has a really high risk of TPK (and has happened in multiple occasions)

[stoutstien]

Yes, it is, and post #76 states that the Artificer can:

5. At level 10, craft any common or uncommon magic item at quarter speed and half cost. This replaces each subclass being able to craft a specific subset of magic items cheaply and quickly

(Clearly this means in one-quarter the normal time, not quarter speed.)

Ergo, Wands of Magic Missile, Bags of Tricks, Longbows +1 are fair game.

Depending on accessibility of recipes of course. if they're on the list of infusions that means the artificer knows how to make it already...fun.

[Sception]

The new races are extremely powerful, not in line with the previous ones in the least, Mark of Healing, Mark of Sentinel and Mark of Warding are ridiculously OP.

The dragonmarked subraces, sure. The actual new races - warforged, changeling, etc? Not so much. I don't see that as 'power creep' so much, on account of it's a very specific thing. Like the guilds in ravnica, it's not something openly available in games outside of these limited settings. That said, I still would have preferred some other implementation, but the fact that 5e made feats 'optional' AND don't grant any at first level even if your DM allows them means the most obvious and appropriate implementation of the concept simply isn't available in 5e. Backgrounds would have been an acceptable alternative, but then you'd have the exact same problem as with the Ravnica guild backgrounds, in that while races in 5e weren't designed to do that much, backgrounds were designed to do even less.

Again, as a very pointedly setting specific thing I don't mind it, in the same way I don't mind the ravnica guilds *in ravnica*. The more modular stuff that could more easily transplant into other settings - the actual new races, the artificer - are much more in line with what we've seen in other book, much as the ravnica races and circle of spores druid were. Speaking of the Artificer...


Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

In most of the games I've personally played in, where magic items are rare and most of the ones that do show up are either magic weapons, armor, or minor items that don't require attunement anyway? Yeah, in most of the games I've played any standard build would be stronger than one that traded it's subclass for more attunement slots. I've played 5e since it released at several different level ranges and I can count on one hand the number of characters I've seen that have even filled their current limit of three attunement slots. I don't think I've ever been that fortunate with a 5e character I've actually played.

Items are extremely DM dependant. They're either stingy with attunement items in which case the party probably won't stretch beyond the 3/character limit already and the artificers extra slots won't actually do anything anyway, or the DM is generous with attunement items and the artificers extra slots, while admittedly strong in that case, are also practically required in order to be able to effectively use one of their primary class features.

Either way, I don't really see the sky falling as a result.

[Wildarm]

Thanks for the race summary. Super handy!

I'm particularly interested in the Mark of Warding Dwarf. You can finally build a Dwarf Abjurer Tank!



Oh, boy. You don't see art of a dwarf. You see art of a vault. Oh, by the Silver Flame!

+2 Con, +1 Int. Hey, a dwarf can finally make a decent Int caster! Like...an Artificer! Or a Wizard. Or an Eldritch Knight Fighter! Or an Arcane Trickster Rogue!
+1d4 on all Intelligence (Investigation) checks and ability checks using thieves' tools
Alarm and Mage Armor 1/long rest, and eventually Arcane Lock 1/long rest, using Int as your spellcasting ability. (Why not Constitution...?)


[SPOILER=Mark of Warding Spells] 1st: Alarm, Armor of Agathys (WTF!?)
2nd: Arcane Lock, Knock (hehe!)
3rd: Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle
4th: Leomund's Secret Chest, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
5th: Antilife Shell



There was previously no way to combine AoA /w Abjurers ward without taking a level in Warlock(or 3 in Conquest Paladin). Now you can do it and the extra race features all tie into a wizard quite nicely. Well designed race IMO. Spell list is all nice but really great for a Wizard with a treasure hunter feel.

Free Mage armor is OK but you don't want to be getting hit ALL the time even with AoA up. Maybe dip Fighter 1 to start for armor/Shield Proficiency. Or maybe even go for a Barbarian 1. I forget how Rage interacts with Abjurer Ward. I think the ward takes the full damage first and any overflow is halved.

[MaxWilson]

Well, it may have to do with my groups playstyle, but my 17th lvl sorlock has a Staff of Power, a RotArchmage, RotPK +3, Cube of Force(familiar), If I could get 3 more attunement slots, I could likely improve my protections, or get some boots of flying, idk, I think they make even more of a difference in a Martial than a caster.

Gimme like 20 mins, Ill see what I can build for a FTR with 6 attunements.

Yeah, could be a playstyle thing, and maybe your sorlock is also undervaluing their subclass features. After all, you didn't say "Infernal Divine Sorlock" or "Fey Wild Sorlock", you just said "Sorlock," so I'm presuming you're not doing much with Bend Luck or Divine Soul Flight or whatever your subclass features are.


I'm not seeing it in jaap's OP, was it post somewhere else?

Post #76 of this thread, bullet point #5.


If I understand correctly its what the UA artificar had that let you create magic items cheaper and faster? If that's the case, yeah 4x cheaper and faster is a lot, but depends heavily on how easy it is to create magic items to begin with.

Yes. As I said, this is less of a class balance issue, and more of a rule imbalance issue that a class is drawing extra attention to. If a DM hasn't realized yet how powerful Uncommon item-forging can be, well, the first Artificer to reach 10th level will show them, and then after that all the Evokers and Necromancers etc. will follow suit, just 4x slower. (Yes, you need to find formulas and ingredients, but those are solvable issues.)


Is it like 3e?

My only exposure to 3E is via the ToEE video game, which had insanely powerful item crafting rules, but that was partly due to the fact that the game completely ignored time requirements and only charged you gold and XP to craft. In a real game, time is or ought to be a significant concern, and you won't be forging decades' worth of magic items in instants like you would in a video game. But there's still 52 weeks in a year and that's enough time to make lots of Uncommon magic items.


A bit OT, when we do have combat after lvl 7 or so, they tend to be like one Dx10 or something combat per session, so this developed a "meta" in which we generally having to plan a lot for most encounters we're going to tackle, since when it is head on it has a really high risk of TPK (and has happened in multiple occasions)

Yeah, I like that combat-light-but-deadly style too. It gives combat more narrative weight: it's dangerous and rare conflict between near-peers, instead of just casual murder of weaker creatures, and it gives you lots of incentive to want to avoid combat if you can because it's so dangerous, which creates more roleplaying opportunities for negotiation/etc.

============================================


Depending on accessibility of recipes of course. if they're on the list of infusions that means the artificer knows how to make it already...fun.

Yes, but in a game with Artificers the DM will not be too stingy with recipes or he's nerfing the Artificer's class features, which again is why this is more of a setting/rules issue than a class-balance issue. Besides, there's always the Sage background and/or NPC sages.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm particularly interested in the Mark of Warding Dwarf. You can finally build a Dwarf Abjurer Tank!

That's... that's really quite good. Highly efficient in spell slot usage because of the free spells per day. Hell, even the "ribbony" Alarm and Arcane Lock can be used to heal your ward a bit. And yeah, obviously Armor of Agathys is a gem here. Really the only thing obviously missing is a source of proper armor: you still need to crank dex for AC without multiclassing for armor proficiency.

[Wildarm]

That's... that's really quite good. Highly efficient in spell slot usage because of the free spells per day. Hell, even the "ribbony" Alarm and Arcane Lock can be used to heal your ward a bit. And yeah, obviously Armor of Agathys is a gem here. Really the only thing obviously missing is a source of proper armor: you still need to crank dex for AC without multiclassing for armor proficiency.

Yeah starting stats of 8/14/16/16/12/8 is possible which is pretty solid on a Wizard. 15AC is painful though if you're planning on being front line. At 5th level you'd have a 14 point ward and 15 THP point AoA active with 37HP. You should be able to tank 2-4 hits from foes and deal out a decent amount of damage back.

You'd probably want at least 17+ AC to make you tougher to hit so you don't go down under 3+ enemies with multiple attacks in Tier2. Can't think of an easy way to do that beyond multicassing. I think the best option would be a Forge Cleric 1/Abjurer X. You don't lose spell slot progression and get an additional point of AC, some cantrips and healing. All good things. Will be considering that build for a future character I think.

Tempest 2/Abjurer X would also be pretty good too I think. Medium Armor + Shield gives you a respectable 19AC. Attacks against you do Cold damage + Rebuke damage. Maximized Lightning bolt as your big move. Having 3rd level spells when everyone else is getting 4th level is tough but you're a very solid front line caster. Martial weapons so you can booming blade with comparable damage to other melee classes and makes you sticky as well.

[Makorel]

We get a flip through the book here:

https://youtu.be/bL9Ru9e2DAw

I didn't bother trying to pause and get a full read on the crunch, but my major takeaways:
- I love the news stories peppered throughout the book, very flavourful.
- Art is a mix of reused stuff and new, but all very pretty
- The group patron section is beefier than anticipated, of the 70 pages in Chapter 1 on character creation, about half of it is on having a group patron.
- The DM section is also quite impressive, there are some neat maps

Video actually shows the full Artificer spell list:

Acid Splash
Create Bonfire
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Frostbite
Guidance
Light
Mage Hand
Magic Stone
Mending
Message
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Resistance
Shocking Grasp
Spare the Dying
Thorn Whip
Thunderclap
Absorb Eleements
Alarm
Catapult
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
Faerie Fire
False Life
Feather Fall
Grease
Identify
Jump
Longstrider
Purify Food and Drink
Snare
Aid
Alter Self
Arcane Lock
Blur
Continual Flame
Darkvision
Enlarge/Reduce
Heat Metal
Invisibility
Lesser Restoration
Levitate
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Protection from Poison
Pyrotechnics
Rope Trick
See Invisibility
Skywrite
Spider Climb
Web

Blink
Catnap
Create Food and Water
Dispel Magic
Elemental Weapon
Flame Arrows
Fly
Glyph of Warding
Haste
Protection from Energy
Revivify
Tiny Servant
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Arcane Eye
Elemental Bane
Fabricate
Freedom of Movement
Leomund's Secret Chest
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Stone Shape
Stoneskin

Animate Objects
Bigby's Hand
Creation
Greater Restoration
Skill Empowerment
Transmute Rock
Wall of Stone

3rd: Healing Word, Ray of Sickness
5th: Flaming Sphere, Melf's Acid Arrow
9th: Gaseous Form, Mass Healing Word
13th: Blight, Death Ward
17th: Cloudkill, Raise Dead
3rd: Shield, Thunderwave
5th: Scorching Ray, Shatter
9th: Fireball, Wind Wall
13th: Ice Storm, Wall of Fire
17th: Cone of Cold, Wall of Force
3rd: Heroism, Shield
5th: Branding Smite, Warding Bond
9th: Aura of Vitality, Conjure Barrage
13th: Aura of Purity, Fire Shield
17th: Banishing Smite, Mass Cure Wounds
No Arcane Weapon to be found.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah, could be a playstyle thing, and maybe your sorlock is also undervaluing their subclass features. After all, you didn't say "Infernal Divine Sorlock" or "Fey Wild Sorlock", you just said "Sorlock," so I'm presuming you're not doing much with Bend Luck or Divine Soul Flight or whatever your subclass features are.

I'm an Air Genasi Storm Sorc 8/GOOChainlock 9, despite what I do in the boards, I don't generally optimize my chars as much, I picked my spells more from an RP perspective, don't remember them all by heart, but mostly spells that had to do with air, thunder and mobility from my ancestry, and mindraping or mysterious stuff from GOOness.

There is some truth to me not valuing my subclass features in combat very much, but tbh they aren't very useful there, I don't think I've used my no-AoO 10 feet flight more than 2 or 3 times since lvl 10, and I think I've only used Entropic Ward a total of 1 time in the entire playthrough.

However, Awakened Mind is kind of the reason that the char exists, its completely character defining for me, my dm plays it that people just hear a voice, they have no idea who is talking to them, I've pretended to be gods, demons, other people whom I wanted to be labeled as warlocks, w/e, its an amazingly versatile ability and you getit at lvl 1. And the ability to control winds in nice and thematic, and the resistance to thunder and lightning saved me from death twice.

Idk, I probably don't rate most subclasses very highly, EK though is one of those I do rate highly because they fundamentally change your character, which for every other Fighter subclass is not the case (I guess there can be an argument for battlemaster though).


Post #76 of this thread, bullet point #5.

Yes. As I said, this is less of a class balance issue, and more of a rule imbalance issue that a class is drawing extra attention to. If a DM hasn't realized yet how powerful Uncommon item-forging can be, well, the first Artificer to reach 10th level will show them, and then after that all the Evokers and Necromancers etc. will follow suit, just 4x slower. (Yes, you need to find formulas and ingredients, but those are solvable issues.)

I guess it will depend on the availability of said formulae and the cost to make them.


My only exposure to 3E is via the ToEE video game, which had insanely powerful item crafting rules, but that was partly due to the fact that the game completely ignored time requirements and only charged you gold and XP to craft. In a real game, time is or ought to be a significant concern, and you won't be forging decades' worth of magic items in instants like you would in a video game. But there's still 52 weeks in a year and that's enough time to make lots of Uncommon magic items.

Oh it was godly, with Wondrous Items you could do pretty much w/e you want, there was a table of costs for thing, and some mechanics on the costs of multiple powers per item, and such, if you were a MI crafter in 3e (and if you were a caster you should have at least 1 Item Creation feat), it was almost like making a build, as a matter of fact, itemization was a very important part of 3e builds, and for a char with IC feats, that was taken to eleven, since you could custom make yourself items.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm


Yeah, I like that combat-light-but-deadly style too. It gives combat more narrative weight: it's dangerous and rare conflict between near-peers, instead of just casual murder of weaker creatures, and it gives you lots of incentive to want to avoid combat if you can because it's so dangerous, which creates more roleplaying opportunities for negotiation/etc.

Yeah, we've resorted to asking for help from different factions on multiple occasions.

============================================

Regarding the build, as I was making it, I could already see the complaints a mile away that "where did you get all those items? how can you get all that? You can't be sure you'll get all of those!" So I scrapped it, I think the best stick to compare them would be using AL TP rules, but I never understood them properly. Is there a simple number of TP points you should have by lvl 20, and a list of how much each item costs?

[Damon_Tor]

Yeah starting stats of 8/14/16/16/12/8 is possible which is pretty solid on a Wizard. 15AC is painful though if you're planning on being front line. At 5th level you'd have a 14 point ward and 15 THP point AoA active with 37HP. You should be able to tank 2-4 hits from foes and deal out a decent amount of damage back.

You'd probably want at least 17+ AC to make you tougher to hit so you don't go down under 3+ enemies with multiple attacks in Tier2. Can't think of an easy way to do that beyond multicassing.

To be fair, you have shield, and using shield is rewarded by healing your ward as well. So the situation isn't quite as dire as you might imagine.

[T.G. Oskar]

Between the two of us, I think we pretty much covered all the player options in the book (except Group Patrons, but that's not individual player specific).

Nice work, Oskar!

Thanks. Felt like that info was necessary to transcribe - in particular, since between that, the Artificer and the magic items, that's basically most of what we're interested in. (Though, I'm also interested in the setting per se, so I'll love seeing the info on everything. I'm already excited for the Bone Knight NPC!)


Yeah, Artificer remains, to my view, only suitable to Eberron.

I detest this capstone. It is waay unbalanced vis a vis anyone else. I made mention of that in my feedback to WoTC in the survey.


What is unbalanced by getting something at level 20 for only oneself that Paladin's get and share to nearby allies at level 6, and even more allies at level 18? The protection from death also reduces their infusions, which are probably providing their attunements, so they lose effectiveness as the enemies are breaking more of their toys, not killing them. But they can only do it once per turn, because it takes their reaction.

This is a far cry from Barbarians and Moon Druids going infinite rage and wild shape.


The changes to the Warforge is just ew. The wording on their integrated ability makes it now that you ARE wearing armor and suffer the ramifications of it. No more druids with comparable AC Warforge: you can't wear metal. No more barbarians that don't want to rely entirely on being naked for AC: you can't rage in armor properly. Add in that the sub races are gone, making everyone a generic envoy, and it feels like a dwarf without the speed drop. Except dwarves still get things for being a dwarf, while a warforge is.. meh. Maybe they could move the missing features to the Docent?


The save bonus is only a little better than a self-only paladin aura (+6 instead of +5) and keeping yourself standing when things would otherwise kill you is an inferior version of the Zealot feature, one that eats up your resources. I don't really see the problem. Several of the Paladin capstones are much better than this, the fighter's 4th attack is better than this, the Barbarian's +4 to Str and Con is better than this. Most casters have worse capstones, that's absolutely true, but they have been able to play with Wish for 3 levels so I expect it all evens out.

I agree the capstone is a tad too much for them; a +6 to all saves (including, as suggested, Death saving throws) is pretty bomb, and essentially six lives on a class that's a solid supporter is also pretty brutal. (Then again, that means you'd have to sacrifice your Homunculus; so great that it managed to survive as an option!) I also agree that you can get the same through other options. The thing here is the principle of the matter - they have a better capstone than over a third of the classes out there.

Bard? You can recharge one use of Bardic Inspiration on an initiative roll if you have nothing.
Monk? You can recharge four Ki points on an initiative roll if you have nothing.
Ranger? Add Wis to one attack roll or damage roll, 1/turn, against one of your favored enemies. (This is the worst, because it's far too situational, even if it has the same language as Sneak Attack, so you could technically add your Wis to damage rolls on opportunity attacks or attacks granted by reactions)
Sorcerer? You can recharge four Sorcery points on an initiative roll if you have nothing.
Warlock? Spend 1 minute to recharge all of your 4 spell slots, 1/long rest.

Compare to Barbarian (+4 STR/CON, and a boost to their limits), Cleric (1/week equivalent to Wish, except without the hassle; note that you got that since 10th level, but now it's 100% accurate), Rogue (1/short or long rest, turn a miss into a hit or essentially roll a 20 on an ability check if you failed it) or Wizard (have two 3rd-level spells cast as if they were a Warlock). Do note that YMMV on Druid (infinite uses of Wild Shape; not so great for some, but wonderful for Moon and Wildfire Druids) and Fighter (an Extra Attack might not seem like much, but it improves the Fighter's nova capabilities with Action Surge and you can do some nice things with four attacks you can replace by Shoves). Also, I specifically removed Paladin from this list because it's probably the most broken capstone anyway (since it's determined by your Oath, and even if it's 1/long rest, it's basically going Super Saiyan).

Having a tease of a capstone when other classes have nothing like such isn't fair to those classes that have sucky capstones. Even if very few to no games reach 20th level, the fact that if they did, an Artificer would have a better capstone than over half of the classes is bad taste. Even if you could do it with other classes ten to seventeen levels ago, the fact that it makes reaching the top of your class more enticing in comparison to others still makes it unfair.

Though, I'm personally more miffed about additional attunement slots. It's one step shorter to extra concentration slots, and that's essentially one step closer to truly breaking the game.


If whats presented in this thread is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, this is Ravnica Backgrounds levels power creep.

The new races are extremely powerful, not in line with the previous ones in the least, Mark of Healing, Mark of Sentinel and Mark of Warding are ridiculously OP.

Compare the the Warlock's Patrons to what the Mark races grant, 10 spells added to your list vs 8-10 spells known, with the added benefit of allowing you to freely multiclass, since you don't need 9 levels in a single spellcasting class to gain access to 5th lvl spells. And as if that wasn't enough they all get some fixed free castings, and in some cases awesome abilities on top.

I like the idea of Race having a greater impact on the character, and I'd love for this to be the level of power races grant to your character in 5.5, but currently I don't think they can be mixed with standard races in the same sense that Ravnica backgrounds can't be mixed with standard ones.

Of course there are still lots of builds that will benefit from other races more, but the builds that can make use of what the race brings, which are almost, but not limited to, EVERY half caster or full caster, are getting much more from it than what those other builds are getting, which most of the time, can be supplanted with an ASI.

This is power creep, because you are strengthening the already strongest builds.

Aside the races which seem egregiously out of line to me (but hope its an indication that 5.5e will have all races in line with that, in which case it will be awesome), Artificer is also very OP. 6 Atunnemet slots in a system without typed bonus is ridiculously strong, and that coupled with the +1 to all saves per attuned item...

Make the following excercise, make a build for whatever class you want, but dont pick a subclass and instead give it 6 attunemet slots instead of 3, plus the artificers capstone at 20, now ask yourself, which looks more powerful, this build or a standard one?

I'll try to read the book once its out, but the preview looks like a massive power creep, very in line with the latest UA's we have been getting, which may be indicating of this being the first handbook written with the new direction Wizards wants to take the game in mind.

Well, I have differing opinions in this.

For one, the Dragonmarks are all over the place. A Mark of Hospitality Halfling doesn't have the best spells around, though Sleep and Confusion are pretty funny to have; as I said, it feels like an NPC choice. Mark of Sentinel was actually nerfed, since it lost Blade Ward as a cantrip, and can't use its d4 to boost Initiative checks, let alone use Vigilant Guardian more than once per long rest; the spells are pretty nice, and any way to get Warding Bond for a Paladin is always a plus for me, but I feel they dialed down House Deneith far too much. I also cringe a bit for the Mark of Passage (House Orien), because they lost a few goodies too. Then, you have things like the Mark of Healing (which I totally agree is way too OP, getting the best healing spells on demand) and Mark of Making (which has quite a bit of buffs stacked there), and I can agree with your proposal.

Here's a thing, though. Guild Spells are locked to Guilds. From what I see, you don't have to be part of their background; what you do need is to be a member of the Guild. Now, I don't know very much about it, because I'm not interested in GGtRavnica. At all. And I saw the magic items and monsters, and they're gorgeous, but I don't think my table's gonna get it, even if a good part of the table also plays CCGs. About the only content I'd really miss are the subclasses (Order Domain Clerics and Circle of Spores Druids), and those are because I always enjoy more subclasses. (Plus, the Circle of Spores Druid is a perfect match for the Children of Winter Druid sect in Eberron.) Dragonmarks, on the other hand, lock your race. Consider the Mark of Finding Half-Orc; while most people here are saying that the vanilla Half-Orc isn't that great, the replacements you get aren't that impressive either. Good, yeah, but not impressive. Mark of Healing Halflings are the best of the bunch, because they get all the Halfling goodies (Brave, Lucky, Halfling Nimbleness) with the goodies from the Mark itself. Their stat distribution is favorable for many classes (Clerics, Druids, Monks, Rangers), and their spell list is out of whack. I consider Jorasco Halflings the most OP of the bunch.

Humans are different, because they get nothing, so you need to compare them to variant Humans and their free feat/skill proficiency. A feat can be VERY powerful, if chosen correctly. While a Deneith Blademark (essentially a Mark of Sentinel Human going for a warrior class such as Fighter and Paladin) has access to two minor powers, a variant Human with Sentinel already has better crowd control than them. Even if the Fighter goes into Eldritch Knight, and the Paladin gains more spells (hence, adding the Mark of Sentinel spells to their list, which is a pretty nice boon to the former since they get more Abjuration spells from different classes and more non-Abj/Evo spells from the Wizard list), that early feat means the variant Human can complete a build as early as 4th level (Polearm Master), or boost their ASIs before the Blademark can start their own. And I went specifically for tanking, because that's what the Mark of Sentinel focuses on.

I think that the Mark had to have a modular benefit. Non-casters should have had better benefits to reflect their use of the Dragonmark in a different way than casters do. Let's use as an example the Monk - it lacks spellcasting options (other than 4E and Sun Soul, but they use Ki to fuel those "spells" instead), so it won't use those spells at all unless it MCs. Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration are great, but once they're used, that's that. They could get the Healer feat, so that they don't get shafted by not having Spare the Dying; it spreads their build too thin, but it fits the concept better. The Healing Touch power from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron is pretty awesome for them, since it makes them slightly better healers. If that was the alternative option for those non-casters, I'd argue the race was insanely attractive.

I can see why it's an issue to suddenly have non-class ways to expand your spell list (Crawford is very adamant on toying with the spell lists of every class that has them, if the most recent UA is an indicative), in particular if bound to a specific race, or in case of GGtR, guild membership. (After all, allying to a Faction in Forgotten Realms amounts to nothing other than roleplay benefits and maybe a cool trinket; this is a much better benefit, in particular for factions such as the Harpers which were traditionally magic-inclined and pretty trigger happy when granting magic items.) Eberron tied these benefits to races, which has its own issue; do you want to get all healing spells on a Druid/Cleric MC while getting only 2 levels for Disciple of Life? Well, you HAVE to be a Halfling! (...I know, not the best example because of what I described above, but it fits the bill.) By locking them behind races, they force you to play as a specific race to get the benefit you want, instead of arbitrarily join to a guild just to get certain benefits (where a guild is something that's more abstract to your build than race and class, which are fundamental instead). IMO, it's a better approach and a nice benefit than Guild Spells.

As for replacing subclasses with 6 attunement slots and the Artificer's capstone? I'll take subclasses any day of the week. Not everyone gets cool stuff like Warlocks and Invocations, or heck, the Spellcasting class feature in their entirety. (Fighters suffer the most from it; their archetypes define what they are.)

[Damon_Tor]

they have a better capstone than over a third of the classes out there.

That's still below average then. I don't understand your argument.

[stoutstien]

I think the problem with discussing capstones is there is no average, there's good ones and then bad ones. Of course in some cases like wizard they don't really need a strong capstone because they're level 9 spells combined with a level 18 feature is pretty much a capstone in itself. You really just can't compare level features to another class about taking the entire class into consideration.

[MaxWilson]

I agree the capstone is a tad too much for them; a +6 to all saves (including, as suggested, Death saving throws) is pretty bomb, and essentially six lives on a class that's a solid supporter is also pretty brutal.

How do you figure six lives? Say the dragon breathes fire on you for 93 HP of fire damage, and instead of casting Absorb Elements you instead burn an infusion to drop to 1 HP. What's to stop the dragon from just swatting you to 0 HP with its tail as a legendary action? You don't have another reaction, so all you did was trade a an infusion for one more attack from the dragon. What's OP about that? In practice it's just a worse version of Death Ward.

Under what circumstances would you actually get "six lives?"

(Bear in mind also that this is 20th level play, so stuff like Regenerate spells and ubiquitous Revivify is also available.)

[stoutstien]

The way I figure it a level 20 artificer is about as tough as a level 20 Monk. the monks pretty easy to use in this regard where the artificer is using a combo of spells, magic items, subclass features, and such.

[WadeWay33]

Homonculus is now a 6th level infusion, and can channel magic touch spells as an action! The spell lists and infusions were leaked today

EDIT: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/dw1no9/additional_information_on_the_new_artificer_class/
Source

[T.G. Oskar]

How do you figure six lives? Say the dragon breathes fire on you for 93 HP of fire damage, and instead of casting Absorb Elements you instead burn an infusion to drop to 1 HP. What's to stop the dragon from just swatting you to 0 HP with its tail as a legendary action? You don't have another reaction, so all you did was trade a an infusion for one more attack from the dragon. What's OP about that? In practice it's just a worse version of Death Ward.

Under what circumstances would you actually get "six lives?"

(Bear in mind also that this is 20th level play, so stuff like Regenerate spells and ubiquitous Revivify is also available.)

Context?

To explain it succinctly: if you choose to spend one of those "lives" (by turning off one of your Infusions) instead of a spell that's tailored to those interests, then it might not count as having "six" lives. However, it could instead be surviving from an arrow attack, or being farther than the dragon's tail attack (hence, that reaction may be more useful spent on sacrificing the infusion than spending the spell). After that, you still have five lives. And, what if you get healed afterwards? I mean, it's not like the dragon just decided to take it on the Artificer to take away all of its Death Saves. You can still spend your reaction afterwards to survive another deadly blow, even if the dragon can still take you afterwards.

Then again, how about managing to survive because the breath weapon did 47 instead of 93? (After all, you do get the overall bonus to saving throws, which is independent from the Aura of Protection from a Paladin, hence it stacks.) If you have that little amount of HP to be unable to survive even a halved breath weapon from a dragon, it can be questionable to think why you're so close to it in the first place. (Dragon's breath weapons aren't as long as their tails, after all.)

And again: it's a "tad" too much. Again, context - I consider the capstone a bit too much if I compare it to other capstones (like the Bard's, Monk's, Ranger's, Sorcerer's and to an extent Warlock's), but it's not necessarily a 1/week Wish, or the super-Sanctuary you get from a certain capstone. It all depends on the context on which you look at it. In my case, I see it as unfitting their fluff; how does an Artificer gets to cheat death, even if only as a reaction, while the class that might benefit from something like that (the Rogue) doesn't? Then again, the Rogue gets something related to its fortune, and most Rogues live by their wits and fortune, so it fits. Explaining how an artificer gets a massive bonus to saving throws and ways to cheat death when their principal fluff is essentially being mad scientists and gadgeteers?

Hence, my emphasis on "context". Had you stated your premise as "why do you treat the Artificer as having six 'lives' if they are tied to their reaction, since there are ways to negate or consume it, hence denying them their main feature?", it would have been more difficult to counter (as it stands, I counter your example argument with minor tidbits that change the context behind it), but it'd still have a counter - that is, I perceive the ability of the Artificer to cheat one instance of death as a reaction six times as if having "six lives", even if they are downed afterwards. Using your same example, an Artificer that didn't use Absorb Elements and then gets downed by a breath weapon, THEN gets hit by a tail attack from a legendary action, is one step closer to death than the Artificer that sacrificed one infusion (hence, one "life") to survive one of the hits. In that context, the response would be "I treat them as having six 'lives' in the context of being able to survive situations that could down others, and thus giving themselves a chance to escape danger and thus survive". It won't hold in every example, but it'll hold in a vast majority of them. (After all, the Artificer CAN have Death Ward, hence having potentially more "lives".)

[MaxWilson]

Hence, my emphasis on "context". Had you stated your premise as "why do you treat the Artificer as having six 'lives' if they are tied to their reaction, since there are ways to negate or consume it, hence denying them their main feature?", it would have been more difficult to counter (as it stands, I counter your example argument with minor tidbits that change the context behind it), but it'd still have a counter - that is, I perceive the ability of the Artificer to cheat one instance of death as a reaction six times as if having "six lives", even if they are downed afterwards. Using your same example, an Artificer that didn't use Absorb Elements and then gets downed by a breath weapon, THEN gets hit by a tail attack from a legendary action, is one step closer to death than the Artificer that sacrificed one infusion (hence, one "life") to survive one of the hits. In that context, the response would be "I treat them as having six 'lives' in the context of being able to survive situations that could down others, and thus giving themselves a chance to escape danger and thus survive". It won't hold in every example, but it'll hold in a vast majority of them. (After all, the Artificer CAN have Death Ward, hence having potentially more "lives".)

I'm not presenting an premise to be "countered," I'm asking what you meant. Under what conditions would you actually get six "extra lives?" by dropping to 0 HP on six different rounds on the same day but never dropping to 0 HP twice in one round or when you don't have a reaction? I can't think of anything plausible.

Don't "counter", just explain yourself please.

Edit: oh, are you talking about the in-character perspective, about how the ability actually works from an artificer's perspective? Do you mean "six lives" in a fairly literal sense, something like "six Horcruxes"? If so I agree that the flavor is weird. Why would an artificer be associated with hiding extra lives in objects?

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not presenting an premise to be "countered," I'm asking what you meant. Under what conditions would you actually get six "extra lives?" by dropping to 0 HP on six different rounds on the same day but never dropping to 0 HP twice in one round or when you don't have a reaction? I can't think of anything plausible.

Don't "counter", just explain yourself please.

Edit: oh, are you talking about the in-character perspective, about how the ability actually works from an artificer's perspective? Do you mean "six lives" in a fairly literal sense, something like "six Horcruxes"? If so I agree that the flavor is weird. Why would an artificer be associated with hiding extra lives in objects?

I think it fits pretty well, they harness the energy of magic items to protect themselves (hence the +1 per attunement). In dire circumstances they can rip all of the magic out of an item of their creation (their infusion) to momentarily boost that defense to avoid going down. They have healing spells on their list so it isn't that far out.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm not presenting an premise to be "countered," I'm asking what you meant. Under what conditions would you actually get six "extra lives?" by dropping to 0 HP on six different rounds on the same day but never dropping to 0 HP twice in one round or when you don't have a reaction? I can't think of anything plausible.

Don't "counter", just explain yourself please.

More on the video game sense, though I'm torn whether it fits more platformers or beat 'em ups. Platformers usually force you to restart the stage at the beginning or give you "mercy invincibility", where you aren't threatened by incoming danger that could consume more of those lives. Beat 'em ups keep you on the same stage, potentially placing you on the same risk of danger (though some beat 'em ups also grant mercy invincibility or a stage-clearing effect).

The Artificer's ability to cheat death by burning off an infusion works somewhere in between. It's like an extra life, but for Nintendo Hard games; you cheated death, but you're still not out of danger. However, if you somehow get out of danger (by healing, teleporting, etc.), and a similar situation happens again, you can cheat death one more time by doing the same thing. In that sense, they count as "extra lives".

Perhaps the reason you don't see it that way is because, unlike the usual "life", it requires a triggering mechanic. To put it simpler; it's not like, say, Reraise in Final Fantasy games, which is essentially the Death Ward effect. It works more like a "timed guard"(forgive me if the terminology isn't correct) coupled with a "guts" mechanic, where if you trigger the move correctly, you survive with 1 HP. In that regard, it's not like the usual "extra life", but because it consumes a resource that you can't recharge until you do a certain action (a long rest), it fits the bill. This is in contrast to such actions in fighting games, where a "timed guard" or similar mechanic consumes some sort of gauge that recovers with time, or usual "guts" mechanics which allow you to survive but trigger instantly.

As for the fluff behind it: I can see how the Artificer can exploit such a mechanic, but don't see how that's different from any other class having a similar mechanic. You could expect that from a Paladin, where its divine resolve allows it to survive blows that would otherwise be fatal. About the only thing I can see that it works is that, by 20th level, the Artificer has outfit his or her heart with a magical pacemaker mechanism, and when the Artificer's about to go unconscious, it draws from its stored magical resources (the infusions) to power up this emergency mechanism. Even then, it doesn't feel like a "soul of Artifice" or explains how the Artificer gets the ability to wrest itself from bindings, dodge area explosions, withstand being petrified, perfectly avoid a logic bomb, avoid mental assault and reinstate its personality against charms and compulsions better than the rest of the party, aside from a divine warrior who basically grants that power because of divine happenstance. Maybe because of magic, but then it makes little sense that both systems (the saving throw system and the pacemaker system) run off different resources (it'd make more sense if the pacemaker triggers ran off the Artificer's attunement slots, but that'd make it even more dangerous; alternatively, have the saving throw be based on active infusions).

[Lanrutcon]

Man, the poor Artillerist. It was actually looking like a good ranged class until the published changes.

Lost a second attack, lost Arcane Weaponry, gimped crafting discount, static turret stats instead of something you upgrade and tinker with, and that level 5 ability? check the wording: it says "cast Artificer spells". You can't apply the bonus damage to multiclass spells, Magic Initiate spells, spells from items such as wands, etc. Infusions still can't be applied to magic items, making them a class feature that literally stops working as you get better gear. The capstone is great, but who cares? 0.1% of players are ever going to experience it. There were a million cool things they could have done and it all got cut to fit the spec into the tiny, tiny box that 5e needs its classes to fit in.

I don't get what the class is supposed to do well. It's not crafting. It's not wand use. It's not blasting. It's not ranged combat. It's not support. It's not even a particularly good at representing the Tinkerer or Engineer class fantasy.

I guess at least it's not as terrible as the Alchemist?

So bummed. I have zero hope the new UA specs aren't going to be butchered prior to release.

/rant

[Dork_Forge]

Man, the poor Artillerist. It was actually looking like a good ranged class until the published changes.

Lost a second attack, lost Arcane Weaponry, gimped crafting discount, static turret stats instead of something you upgrade and tinker with, and that level 5 ability? check the wording: it says "cast Artificer spells". You can't apply the bonus damage to multiclass spells, Magic Initiate spells, spells from items such as wands, etc. Infusions still can't be applied to magic items, making them a class feature that literally stops working as you get better gear. The capstone is great, but who cares? 0.1% of players are ever going to experience it. There were a million cool things they could have done and it all got cut to fit the spec into the tiny, tiny box that 5e needs its classes to fit in.

I don't get what the class is supposed to do well. It's not crafting. It's not wand use. It's not blasting. It's not ranged combat. It's not support. It's not even a particularly good at representing the Tinkerer or Engineer class fantasy.

I guess at least it's not as terrible as the Alchemist?

So bummed. I have zero hope the new UA specs aren't going to be butchered prior to release.

/rant

So... Why do you think it's not good at any of those things?

Besides the crafting discounts, the class can literally create magic items and trinkets, and they do it fairly well (better than anything else we have and it'd be hard to argue badly at all). The spell list is pretty much loaded with support and utility, none of them are lacking ranged options. Why do you think the class does any of this badly?

[Makorel]

Man, the poor Artillerist. It was actually looking like a good ranged class until the published changes.

Artillerist is still a good ranged class, but with ranged aoe magic damage. A d8 for a single roll is a good damage kicker to any Fireball that hits more than one person and when you're out of 3rd level slots you can fall back on your wand of spell storing that has 10 shatters or scorching rays loaded into it, and because you have to make the wand using one of your artificer spells you get the d8 bonus to those casts too. Add the 2d8 bonus action turrets on top (3d8 at 11th level) and with your action and bonus action you're doing comparable single target damage to a Fighter with a Greatsword. Manage to get some more mooks in your shatter/flamethrower and that damage only multiplies.

[Lanrutcon]

So... Why do you think it's not good at any of those things?

Besides the crafting discounts, the class can literally create magic items and trinkets, and they do it fairly well (better than anything else we have and it'd be hard to argue badly at all). The spell list is pretty much loaded with support and utility, none of them are lacking ranged options. Why do you think the class does any of this badly?

The infusions? Very restricted options, both in terms of variety and application, of which you can only have 1 at a time, and a small number in total for most of your character's lifespan. And they don't work with actual magic items, meaning they don't work with magic weapon/armor crafting (or dungeon loot). You can't apply an infusion to a magic item.

Their actual crafting? same as all the other classes until level 10, which means that the majority of Artificers will never craft better than a conventional class. Then when they do get the discount it's (again) super limited and still a matter of "DM may I" because of recipe reliance. Read that again: the class that invents things doesn't have a rule for inventing things. The class text describes infusions as prototype magic items, but doesn't include a rule for then turning the prototype into a crafting recipe. And no Artificer specialisation has a discount on crafting trinkets, btw.

The spell list isn't as broad as other support classes, and comes with half the spell slots. Whatever utility infusions were supposed to provide is dramatically reduced once you realise you have to learn a separate infusion for every magic item you try to duplicate, and you get a tiny number of those.

And lastly in terms of ranged: the class is in no way geared towards ranged damage. Cantrips are inferior to martial weapons, even with the Artillerist bonus (which is deceptively worded as to make it more limited than most people initially reading it will realise), and have none of the support options such as feats or multiclassing (or even as basic as adding your attribute bonus). In terms of spell damage, again: the lack of spell slots and limited spell selection (where the heck is Magic Missile for the class that makes Force damage gun turrets?) means you're worse at magic damage than Sorcs/Wizards/Warlocks. By the time you can fireball they've been doing it for 4 levels and have moved on.

They do a bunch of stuff kind of ok-ish. They do nothing well. The things they're supposed to be exceptional in? (crafting, wand use, engineering...pick one) Not so much.

[Lanrutcon]

Artillerist is still a good ranged class, but with ranged aoe magic damage. A d8 for a single roll is a good damage kicker to any Fireball that hits more than one person and when you're out of 3rd level slots you can fall back on your wand of spell storing that has 10 shatters or scorching rays loaded into it, and because you have to make the wand using one of your artificer spells you get the d8 bonus to those casts too. Add the 2d8 bonus action turrets on top (3d8 at 11th level) and with your action and bonus action you're doing comparable single target damage to a Fighter with a Greatsword. Manage to get some more mooks in your shatter/flamethrower and that damage only multiplies.

You can't use your 5th level feature on wands. The text reads "whenever you cast an Artificer spell". Wand of Spell Storing is a homebrew item.

The turret is he only decent thing about Artillerists that survived the purge, but I already factored it in. It's a bit better than most bonus action attacks, but it starts off decent and just falls off in scaling. You're not doing comparable single target damage to a Fighter with a Greatsword because Great Weapon Master exists and by level 11 every Fighter with a Greatsword has Great Weapon Master unless the GM specifically disallows it or feats in general. And he's probably a Battle Master to boot. And he's swinging 3 times. And he benefits from Haste, where you and your turret don't. Etc etc.

[Arkhios]

So... Why do you think it's not good at any of those things?

Besides the crafting discounts, the class can literally create magic items and trinkets, and they do it fairly well (better than anything else we have and it'd be hard to argue badly at all). The spell list is pretty much loaded with support and utility, none of them are lacking ranged options. Why do you think the class does any of this badly?

Honestly, I'm sensing a lot of need to huff and puff and really nothing to back it up with. All because they failed to understand what the designers have said time and again about the content in UA: It's intentionally made strong, perhaps even too strong, in the articles, at first, so that they can balance it better before publication. It has happened to all of the creations that ended up into a book at some point.

Also, having studied game design (I kid you not), it's a common practice in the industry to start with a strong first build, and then polish it down. It's much easier to get balanced results when you tone something down than it would be if you had to buff it up.

You don't get something out of nothing. It's common sense. Think about a sculptor. Do they carve a statue out of thin air? No? Exactly. They start with a chunk of raw material, and then slowly cut pieces out of it to realise their idea of a statue, basically carving the statue out from the chunk of raw material (whatever it may be: clay, marble, wood). Heck, the principle applies to a painter as well. They start with an empty canvas. Usually, if you're painting a portrait, you start with the frames and then slowly add details, until you're finished and satisfied of your work.

[Lanrutcon]

Honestly, I'm sensing a lot of need to huff and puff and really nothing to back it up with. All because they failed to understand what the designers have said time and again about the content in UA: It's intentionally made strong, perhaps even too strong, in the articles, at first, so that they can balance it better before publication. It has happened to all of the creations that ended up into a book at some point.

Also, having studied game design (I kid you not), it's a common practice in the industry to start with a strong first build, and then polish it down. It's much easier to get balanced results when you tone something down than it would be if you had to buff it up.

You don't get something out of nothing. It's common sense. Think about a sculptor. Do they carve a statue out of thin air? No? Exactly. They start with a chunk of raw material, and then slowly cut pieces out of it to realise their idea of a statue, basically carving the statue out from the chunk of raw material (whatever it may be: clay, marble, wood). Heck, the principle applies to a painter as well. They start with an empty canvas. Usually, if you're painting a portrait, you start with the frames and then slowly add details, until you're finished and satisfied of your work.

Fair enough. I guess I just wanted a more focused specialisation. Artificers try to do so much they end up spreading their class budget super thin.

[Makorel]

And lastly in terms of ranged: the class is in no way geared towards ranged damage. Cantrips are inferior to martial weapons, even with the Artillerist bonus (which is deceptively worded as to make it more limited than most people initially reading it will realise), and have none of the support options such as feats or multiclassing (or even as basic as adding your attribute bonus). In terms of spell damage, again: the lack of spell slots and limited spell selection (where the heck is Magic Missile for the class that makes Force damage gun turrets?) means you're worse at magic damage than Sorcs/Wizards/Warlocks. By the time you can fireball they've been doing it for 4 levels and have moved on.

A Fireball does 8d6 damage. A Shatter does 3d8, buffed by Arcane Firearm adds 1d8, and with the turret you can do another 2d8 for a total of 6d8 damage; very comparable to Fireball. You can do this as many times as a full caster can cast fireball at 5th level and then you switch to thunderwave for 7d8. Eventually the full caster outpaces the Artillerist a bit but that's fine since it's a fullcaster, the damage the Artillerist can dish out is a bit smaller but very respectable.

At 11th level the Artillerist can cast Fireball and the turret scales for a total of 6d8 + 4d8. At 15th level you get two turrets so it becomes 8d6 + 7d8, and then when you run out of high level slots you have the spell storing item for a second level spell. A shatter even without the Arcane Firearm buff is still 3d8, add in the 6d8 from the turrets and that's 9d8 damage on a round. That's almost a Chain Lightning's worth of damage and the Artificer can do it 10 times before they run out of juice and still have their spell slots left over. Artillerist has no problems as things scale up.

The Artificer is also a defensive power house second only to the Paladin. Shield, Absorb Elements and Flash of Genius runs the gamut of defensive abilities for mitigating direct attacks, spell damage and general saving throws.

[Dork_Forge]

The infusions? Very restricted options, both in terms of variety and application, of which you can only have 1 at a time, and a small number in total for most of your character's lifespan. And they don't work with actual magic items, meaning they don't work with magic weapon/armor crafting (or dungeon loot). You can't apply an infusion to a magic item.

Their actual crafting? same as all the other classes until level 10, which means that the majority of Artificers will never craft better than a conventional class. Then when they do get the discount it's (again) super limited and still a matter of "DM may I" because of recipe reliance. Read that again: the class that invents things doesn't have a rule for inventing things. The class text describes infusions as prototype magic items, but doesn't include a rule for then turning the prototype into a crafting recipe. And no Artificer specialisation has a discount on crafting trinkets, btw.

The spell list isn't as broad as other support classes, and comes with half the spell slots. Whatever utility infusions were supposed to provide is dramatically reduced once you realise you have to learn a separate infusion for every magic item you try to duplicate, and you get a tiny number of those.

And lastly in terms of ranged: the class is in no way geared towards ranged damage. Cantrips are inferior to martial weapons, even with the Artillerist bonus (which is deceptively worded as to make it more limited than most people initially reading it will realise), and have none of the support options such as feats or multiclassing (or even as basic as adding your attribute bonus). In terms of spell damage, again: the lack of spell slots and limited spell selection (where the heck is Magic Missile for the class that makes Force damage gun turrets?) means you're worse at magic damage than Sorcs/Wizards/Warlocks. By the time you can fireball they've been doing it for 4 levels and have moved on.

They do a bunch of stuff kind of ok-ish. They do nothing well. The things they're supposed to be exceptional in? (crafting, wand use, engineering...pick one) Not so much.

You want to be a blaster then Artillerist is obviously the best choice, bonus damage to all your spells and turrets that do 2d8 damage. Later on not only does that damage scale but you get another turret, for a total of 6d8 damage, as a bonus action.

I'm not really sure how many infusions you would be happy with, I think it goes up to 6 now? That's ample to provide items to yourself and others, and only one of each recipe might not be to everyone's taste, but it make you think a bit more and encourages something besides everyone just get +1 gear (there was multiple infusions that provide the +1 for weapons as well).

Unless they've removed it and no one has mentioned it so far, they got an ability to make a minor trinket, up to Int mod at a time.

Support wise, they have pretty solid support spells on their list and the new Flash of Genius ability. Spell Storing item later on as well helps round that out.

Besides the Forge Cleric, they are the only class to be able to make +x items and they do it unquestionably better than said Cleric. They are the ONLY class able to magic named magic items.

There needs to be a balance in something like this between flooding the game with magic items (without DM control) and maintaining the crafter feel of it. It's a hard line to walk but after increasing the number of infusions I think WotC have done a decent job of it considering the landscape of 5e.

[Lanrutcon]

A Fireball does 8d6 damage. A Shatter does 3d8, buffed by Arcane Firearm adds 1d8, and with the turret you can do another 2d8 for a total of 6d8 damage; very comparable to Fireball. You can do this as many times as a full caster can cast fireball at 5th level and then you switch to thunderwave for 7d8. Eventually the full caster outpaces the Artillerist a bit but that's fine since it's a fullcaster, the damage the Artillerist can dish out is a bit smaller but very respectable.

At 11th level the Artillerist can cast Fireball and the turret scales for a total of 6d8 + 4d8. At 15th level you get two turrets so it becomes 8d6 + 7d8, and then when you run out of high level slots you have the spell storing item for a second level spell. A shatter even without the Arcane Firearm buff is still 3d8, add in the 6d8 from the turrets and that's 9d8 damage on a round. That's almost a Chain Lightning's worth of damage and the Artificer can do it 10 times before they run out of juice and still have their spell slots left over. Artillerist has no problems as things scale up.

The Artificer is also a defensive power house second only to the Paladin. Shield, Absorb Elements and Flash of Genius runs the gamut of defensive abilities for mitigating direct attacks, spell damage and general saving throws.

Yeah, that does look better than it did it my head. There are some niggles, but for the most part that seems sound. How do you get the 7d8 Thunderwave at 5th level btw? (2d8 turret + 2D8 Thunderwave + 1D8 arcane firearm +? typo?). The defensive power house comment is a bit misleading though, as you don't have the spell slots to power both your offense and defense. Those turrets are basically the saving grace to the spec, it seems (at least where combat is concerned). Thanks. I was considering multiclassing after 5 to get more spell slots from somewhere, but I guess you need to stick with the turret progression?

[Anymage]

The infusions? Very restricted options, both in terms of variety and application, of which you can only have 1 at a time, and a small number in total for most of your character's lifespan. And they don't work with actual magic items, meaning they don't work with magic weapon/armor crafting (or dungeon loot). You can't apply an infusion to a magic item.

If you have enough good magic items that your infusions aren't attractive enough, you enjoy the fact that you have extra attunement slots to use those items.

If your DM is stingy, you enjoy being able to have some magic items as a class feature.

The balance might be a little imprecise. But the extremes of both "no items to put in the bonus attunement slots" and "so packed with legendary items that infusions are not competitive for an attunement slot" both seem like cases where the artificer will be able to leverage a feature to come out ahead.

[Lanrutcon]

You want to be a blaster then Artillerist is obviously the best choice, bonus damage to all your spells and turrets that do 2d8 damage. Later on not only does that damage scale but you get another turret, for a total of 6d8 damage, as a bonus action.

I'm not really sure how many infusions you would be happy with, I think it goes up to 6 now? That's ample to provide items to yourself and others, and only one of each recipe might not be to everyone's taste, but it make you think a bit more and encourages something besides everyone just get +1 gear (there was multiple infusions that provide the +1 for weapons as well).

Unless they've removed it and no one has mentioned it so far, they got an ability to make a minor trinket, up to Int mod at a time.

Support wise, they have pretty solid support spells on their list and the new Flash of Genius ability. Spell Storing item later on as well helps round that out.

Besides the Forge Cleric, they are the only class to be able to make +x items and they do it unquestionably better than said Cleric. They are the ONLY class able to magic named magic items.

There needs to be a balance in something like this between flooding the game with magic items (without DM control) and maintaining the crafter feel of it. It's a hard line to walk but after increasing the number of infusions I think WotC have done a decent job of it considering the landscape of 5e.

Fair point on the blaster. I'd have preferred something more mechanical to go with the turrets, but ah well.

Yeah, 5/6 max but the growth is very slow. For the majority of players you'll have 3 max. So all those flavor items you see on the replication list? Will never happen. They consider something like a +1 weapon equal to night vision goggles or a rope of climbing. Most players are just going to go +1 armor, bag of holding, +1 weapon for a teammate. It just seems so limiting, especially on the utility items. I get not wanting to toss +1 weapons around like its Christmas though, but a rope of climbing wouldn't break the game.

Ah, you mean the little magic trick trinkets. Sorry, I was thinking magic items that don't fit into the wand/armor/weapon/potion/scroll categories.

Point of clarity: they don't make +1 weapons. They temporarily turn a single non-magical weapon into a +1. That's not really crafting benefit. That's a better Magic Weapon spell. I think the infusions are too heavily weighed for the level 12+ bracket. At that point I think the party loves you (provided nobody has been crafting or finding the actual stuff you'll be replicating, and again: you have so few infusions that you can only kit yourself out unless you're generous). Before that? Meh. Free bag of holding.

[JackPhoenix]

You can't use your 5th level feature on wands. The text reads "whenever you cast an Artificer spell".

Any spell on an artificer list is an artificer spell. You still casts spells from wands. Artillerist has Fireball on its list, though unfortunately not Magic Missile.


Wand of Spell Storing is a homebrew item.

Wand of Spell Storing is non-magic wand with Spell Storing Item on it. Though apparently you don't cast spells from SSI anymore, so it depends on exact wording of both abilities.

[Lanrutcon]

Any spell on an artificer list is an artificer spell. You still casts spells from wands. Artillerist has Fireball on its list, though unfortunately not Magic Missile.



Wand of Spell Storing is non-magic wand with Spell Storing Item on it. Though apparently you don't cast spells from SSI anymore, so it depends on exact wording of both abilities.

I googled it, and you're right. Spells from items still count as casting a spell for the sake of class features. As long as the spell is on your Artificer spell list, you're golden. My bad.

Wand of Spell Storing as in the 18th (now 11th) level class feature Spell Storing Item, not the homebrew Wand of Spell Storing that mimics the ring of the same name to a certain extent. Gotcha. That's a good point, the Spell Storing Item release version is much better than the UA version. Frees up a lot of spell slots for Shield and the like.

[stoutstien]

The addition of allowing to make all the common magic items in xanathar is interesting. I wonder how mang Walloping ammo you make with one infusion.

[Damon_Tor]

The addition of allowing to make all the common magic items in xanathar is interesting. I wonder how mang Walloping ammo you make with one infusion.

I may have missed something, but I think you're misreading. Artificers have two relevant abilities you appear to be conflating:

At level 10, they can craft any common or uncommon item for half the price and 1/4 the time.
At level 2 they can create "infusions" during a long rest, which are a sort of temporary magic item

There is a list of magic items an infusion can replicate, but it doesn't include "any common item" as far as I can tell.

Yes, I simply missed it.

That IS interesting.

I think it's pretty clear you could just make 1 piece of ammunition though. There's no exception for expendable items.

[stoutstien]

I may have missed something, but I think you're misreading. Artificers have two relevant abilities you appear to be conflating:

At level 10, they can craft any common or uncommon item for half the price and 1/4 the time.
At level 2 they can create "infusions" during a long rest, which are a sort of temporary magic item

There is a list of magic items an infusion can replicate, but it doesn't include "any common item" as far as I can tell.

Yes, I simply missed it.

That IS interesting.

I think it's pretty clear you could just make 1 piece of ammunition though. There's no exception for expendable items.

Yes rereading it i can't find anything that says otherwise. Which is sad I get the long-term implications of a artificial making an infinite source of magical ammunition but at least a 2d4 worth wouldn't be so bad.
I can't think of anything else on that list that someone would want other than flavor. Maybe the invincible spell book.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes rereading it i can't find anything that says otherwise. Which is sad I get the long-term implications of a artificial making an infinite source of magical ammunition but at least a 2d4 worth wouldn't be so bad.
I can't think of anything else on that list that someone would want other than flavor. Maybe the invincible spell book.

The clockwork amulet gives you a 10 on the D20 once a day, that's not bad and martial casters would appreciate a Ruby of the War Mage (though any Warlock or Wizard would want a necklace or hat just for having a no hand required focus).

[stoutstien]

The clockwork amulet gives you a 10 on the D20 once a day, that's not bad and martial casters would appreciate a Ruby of the War Mage (though any Warlock or Wizard would want a necklace or hat just for having a no hand required focus).

Yes, it definitely a nice expanded list of items to make. Not powerful but flexible which is what I hoped for the class as a whole. Everyone's best friend.

[Keeganwilson]

Mark of healing halfing is the new Wizard healing meta at 17th.

[Damon_Tor]

The addition of allowing to make all the common magic items in xanathar is interesting. I wonder how mang Walloping ammo you make with one infusion.

So with this new peice of information, a few interesting uses:
Create friendly awakened shrubs during a month of downtime with Pots of Awakening. This one's my favorite. Free employees for whatever business venture you desire.
The Talking Doll is a more complex Magic Mouth, and you could use it as a processor in place of 6 magic mouths in a magic mouth computer system.
Unbreakable Arrow: An unbreakable 3-foot stick has a ton of potential uses. You could use this to bar a door or brace a collapsing corridor. Because it is literally unbreakable outside of an antimagic field, there is no upper limit to the amount of force it can withstand
Veteran's Cane: This one interacts oddly with the infusion rules. Once the cane transforms into a longsword, the transformation is permanent, and it explicitly becomes non-magical. By my reading, this gives an artificer a way to manufacture longswords at the cost of wooden canes. Longswords are 15 gp a peice, so if a level 2 artificer uses all three of his infusions every day to create 3 longswords, that's 45 gp every day, 22.5 if he sells them at half price. And because it takes virtually no time at all, it can be done alongside any normal profession.

[Damon_Tor]

Create friendly awakened shrubs during a month of downtime with Pots of Awakening. This one's my favorite. Free employees for whatever business venture you desire.

Prune them into topiaries. Adorable. This is the best idea I've ever had.

[Dork_Forge]

So with this new peice of information, a few interesting uses:
Create friendly awakened shrubs during a month of downtime with Pots of Awakening. This one's my


I love that, I was always a fan of that item.

Good to see they've included what basically amounds to a Wand of the Warmage to the infusion list for the Artillerist/other casters in the party.

The Homucluous looks good, basically a beefier familiar that can partake in combat but you can't see through or dismiss. As it stacks with Find Familiar, my in head game of pokemon will progess quite nicely now.

[stoutstien]

Some not so optimized but interesting combos.
Mark of warding dwarf /moon druid - free mage armor, AoA, and a bunch of non druid spells makes for a very tanking furball with added utility.

Mark of passage human arcane trickster - make the shadow monk jealous of your mobility. Plus 60 ft movement with dash.

Mark of hospitality halflings celestial warlock - a boy scout level of preparedness.

Mark of animal handling human Cleric - you are a druid now.

Healing halflings - doesn't need a long look to see the power of this. But healing is healing and even without much work most healing is Overkill for most parties. Can finally make an oracle. Divination wizard + mark of healing. I doubt spell mastery is worth blowing on healing but infinite healing would be amazing for world building.

[Dork_Forge]

Some not so optimized but interesting combos.
Mark of warding dwarf /moon druid - free mage armor, AoA, and a bunch of non druid spells makes for a very tanking furball with added utility.

Mark of passage human arcane trickster - make the shadow monk jealous of your mobility. Plus 60 ft movement with dash.

Mark of hospitality halflings celestial warlock - a boy scout level of preparedness.

Mark of animal handling human Cleric - you are a druid now.

Healing halflings - doesn't need a long look to see the power of this. But healing is healing and even without much work most healing is Overkill for most parties. Can finally make an oracle. Divination wizard + mark of healing. I doubt spell mastery is worth blowing on healing but infinite healing would be amazing for world building.

Gotta say really not thrilled that the marks add spells to your class list, that seems unnecessary and will have unintended consequnces somewhere.

Edit: unrelated, but what the hell kind of weird flintlock raygun mash up is the Artificer with the flying cat thing holding

[stoutstien]

Gotta say really not thrilled that the marks add spells to your class list, that seems unnecessary and will have unintended consequnces somewhere.

Edit: unrelated, but what the hell kind of weird flintlock raygun mash up is the Artificer with the flying cat thing holding

Probably a spell storing item lol. Web gun maybe

[Dork_Forge]

Probably a spell storing item lol. Web gun maybe

WAIT.

Bracelet turned into storing item...

Thorn whip...

Web...

Did we just make spiderman? I think we did...

[stoutstien]

Only real complaint I have is the alchemist bonus damage doesn't work for items like alchemist fire, acid, and so on.

I wanted to make a rocket launcher that used catapult/spell storing and items to make a bomber.

[Evaar]

Mark of hospitality halflings celestial warlock - a boy scout level of preparedness.

Oh god. You aren't kidding. Grab a Tome, get all the cantrips, all the rituals, and run the best damn tavern this side of the Talenta Plains.


Edit: unrelated, but what the hell kind of weird flintlock raygun mash up is the Artificer with the flying cat thing holding

I believe that character is a depiction of a PC from a streamed game, though I don't recall which. I assume the gun is something she described for herself. But you can easily justify it in current rules for the Artillerist - it's the tiny cannon option.

EDIT

I believe it was Vi, which is an NPC Jeremy Crawford plays in Acquisitions Inc who is a planar traveler from Eberron.

[Makorel]

Yeah, that does look better than it did it my head. There are some niggles, but for the most part that seems sound. How do you get the 7d8 Thunderwave at 5th level btw? (2d8 turret + 2D8 Thunderwave + 1D8 arcane firearm +? typo?). The defensive power house comment is a bit misleading though, as you don't have the spell slots to power both your offense and defense. Those turrets are basically the saving grace to the spec, it seems (at least where combat is concerned). Thanks. I was considering multiclassing after 5 to get more spell slots from somewhere, but I guess you need to stick with the turret progression?

Yeah that's my bad it should've been 5d8. it was very late when I wrote that and I immediately went to bed so as not to make mistakes like that basically. But yeah just stick with the progression and the Artillerist won't be dead weight.

I still think Artificer's defenses are very good, better than most other classes sans Paladin. I didn't even mention how you can add a +1 to your armor and your shield and that doubles at 10th level. I'd also argue that the spell storing wand frees up some spell slots to focus on shield & absorb elements but I don't know how often the turrets will go down in practice and you need to spend first level slots for those after the first one.

[Dessunri]

Am I crazy, or was the Changeling supposed to be part of Eberron? Admittedly I wasn't a huge Eberron fan until I played the first four modules at Gamehole Con so maybe I missed it?

[Evaar]

Am I crazy, or was the Changeling supposed to be part of Eberron? Admittedly I wasn't a huge Eberron fan until I played the first four modules at Gamehole Con so maybe I missed it?

It is and it's included in the book

[ProsecutorGodot]

Am I crazy, or was the Changeling supposed to be part of Eberron? Admittedly I wasn't a huge Eberron fan until I played the first four modules at Gamehole Con so maybe I missed it?

Changeling is confirmed for the book, do you mean that you weren't aware that Changeling's were part of Eberron? To my knowledge they've always been a part of the setting and that isn't stopping here.

[Arkhios]

Changeling is confirmed for the book, do you mean that you weren't aware that Changeling's were part of Eberron? To my knowledge they've always been a part of the setting and that isn't stopping here.

They have indeed. And still are.

Along with the Shifters, Changelings are one of the most interesting races in Eberron as a whole. Descendants of humans and shapeshifters who are free to choose their own paths in life, instead of being bound by the universal laws of lycanthropy or whatever it was for doppelganger.

[JackPhoenix]

They have indeed. And still are.

Along with the Shifters, Changelings are one of the most interesting races in Eberron as a whole. Descendants of humans and shapeshifters who are free to choose their own paths in life, instead of being bound by the universal laws of lycanthropy or whatever it was for doppelganger.

Maybe. Or maybe not. Their origins are unclear, and the way Eberron keeps things for DMs to decide, they may as well be ancestors of lycanthropes (which has been suggested for Shifters), or completely unrelated to doppelgangers and created by divine blessing (as one legend claim for changelings).

"Long ago there was a woman named Jes, and she had a hundred children. Her rivals conspired against her, and swore to kill her hundred children. These enemies numbered in the thousands and wielded dark magic, and the Children would never prevail against them. Jes begged the Sovereigns for help, but their only answer was the wind and rain. She sought the aid of the Silver Flame, but its keepers would not hear her. In the depths of her despair, a lonely traveler took her hand. ‘I will protect your children if they follow my path. Let them wander the world. None will know them. They will have no kingdom but the road, and no enemy will find them. They may be shunned by all the world, but they will never be destroyed.’ Jes agreed, and the traveler gave her his cloak. When she draped it over her children, their old faces melted away, and they could be whoever they wanted to be. And so it is until this day. Though the Children are shunned by all, the gift of the traveler protects them still, so long as they follow his path."

[NOMster]

Man the shifters suck even worse. I was hoping they fix them, but taking away a Prof and keeping shifting tied to short rests is terrible. I've been playing one for close to a year now and it just make shifting feel like more trouble than it's worth. Meanwhile in another group, the DM made it 3/long rest and it's so much better. Anyway, rant over.

[Arkhios]

Man the shifters suck even worse. I was hoping they fix them, but taking away a Prof and keeping shifting tied to short rests is terrible. I've been playing one for close to a year now and it just make shifting feel like more trouble than it's worth. Meanwhile in another group, the DM made it 3/long rest and it's so much better. Anyway, rant over.

Man, kids these days. In the old times, during 3.5 when Shifter was introduced along with Eberron in the first place, Shifting was once per DAY. That it's now once per short or long rest is waaaaaay better than that.

[Degwerks]

I thought this might be helpful to some folks

https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/news-announcements/50427-select-ua-being-archived

[NOMster]

Man, kids these days. In the old times, during 3.5 when Shifter was introduced along with Eberron in the first place, Shifting was once per DAY. That it's now once per short or long rest is waaaaaay better than that.

except it wasn't once per day permanently. you could increase the frequency by taking shifter feats which also increased the amount of time you could shift and made your abilities better. come on man. there's no comparison.

[Arkhios]

except it wasn't once per day permanently. you could increase the frequency by taking shifter feats which also increased the amount of time you could shift and made your abilities better. come on man. there's no comparison.

I'd argue it's a lot better still, since you don't need a feat for the frequency of once per rest. Do note that you may have more than one short rest between long rests. When you look at the big picture, without a single feat, you could use Shifting from 1 to 'n' times "per day" (where n < 24).

[NOMster]

I'd argue it's a lot better still(where n < 24).

let's just disagree then. You should probably play one if you haven't though. in use, it's really just good for flavor and with one less proficiency now, it's even less desirable mechanically than before. especially if you're not taking short rests often, you'll find yourself not even using the feature. the last time my character shifted was probably 2 months ago and i don't even remember the time before that. because it's just not worth it.

[Tectorman]

let's just disagree then. You should probably play one if you haven't though. in use, it's really just good for flavor and with one less proficiency now, it's even less desirable mechanically than before. especially if you're not taking short rests often, you'll find yourself not even using the feature. the last time my character shifted was probably 2 months ago and i don't even remember the time before that. because it's just not worth it.

Exactly. Right now, if I wanted to play a Shifter in Eberron, I'd use a Tabaxi and call it a Shifter, because at least then, it would feel like I was a member of that race all the time.

[Damon_Tor]

If it were up to me I would let them shift for free a number of times per long rest equal to their con modifier. Every shift after that would cost a hit dice.

[NOMster]

If it were up to me I would let them shift for free a number of times per long rest equal to their con modifier. Every shift after that would cost a hit dice.

that is freaking brilliant actually. I may bring this up to my group but the DM is pretty hard nosed about RAW most of the time. I'll tone it down to just using HD for extras and a Max of 1/4 of your level times.

[Evaar]

Exactly. Right now, if I wanted to play a Shifter in Eberron, I'd use a Tabaxi and call it a Shifter, because at least then, it would feel like I was a member of that race all the time.

I just want to comment on the irony of wanting to realize the fantasy of playing a shapechanger by being in one shape all the time.

This is that comment.

[ProsecutorGodot]

that is freaking brilliant actually. I may bring this up to my group but the DM is pretty hard nosed about RAW most of the time. I'll tone it down to just using HD for extras and a Max of 1/4 of your level times.

AFB and can't fact check but wouldn't this be an almost always superior option to us HD for? Iirc your temp hp from shifting is fairly generous, unless your party has a source of temp hp available it's not even a question of worth, you're always going to shift until you run out of HD.

[NOMster]

AFB and can't fact check but wouldn't this be an almost always superior option to us HD for? Iirc your temp hp from shifting is fairly generous, unless your party has a source of temp hp available it's not even a question of worth, you're always going to shift until you run out of HD.

thats why i said you can only use up to 1/4 of your levels in HD for this. so it works like this:

you get one shift per short rest. at level 4 you have the option to use 1 hd for an additional shift per long rest. at level 8, you can use up to 2. level 12, you can use 3, etc. so the most you could ever use is at level 20 where you could use 5 per long rest in addition to 1 per short rest.

[MaxWilson]

thats why i said you can only use up to 1/4 of your levels in HD for this. so it works like this:

you get one shift per short rest. at level 4 you have the option to use 1 hd for an additional shift per long rest. at level 8, you can use up to 2. level 12, you can use 3, etc. so the most you could ever use is at level 20 where you could use 5 per long rest in addition to 1 per short rest.

At that point, the HD cost is just adding extra complexity but not any real cost.

Why not just make it cost 3 HD per extra use? At 1st level you can shift once per short rest; at 3rd level you can burn all three HD for one extra use, and so on up to 18th level where you can get 6 extra uses.

[stoutstien]

Careful with shifters. Unless I misread it those THP last until lost or long rest. I could see an extra use per short rest but gate it at lv 5 .

[Wizard_Lizard]

honestly I wpuld play shifter just for the thematics....

[NOMster]

At that point, the HD cost is just adding extra complexity but not any real cost.

Why not just make it cost 3 HD per extra use? At 1st level you can shift once per short rest; at 3rd level you can burn all three HD for one extra use, and so on up to 18th level where you can get 6 extra uses.

I'm okay with that too. I was thinking that the extra shift doesn't give the temp HP just the shifting feature but I forgot to put that. The only problem is that at 3rd level that's incredibly costly. 1 HD at 4th is a reasonable costly trade.
Also this same concept could be used for any racial feature. Dragonborns breath weapon and such.

[Damon_Tor]

AFB and can't fact check but wouldn't this be an almost always superior option to us HD for? Iirc your temp hp from shifting is fairly generous, unless your party has a source of temp hp available it's not even a question of worth, you're always going to shift until you run out of HD.

I don't have the inclination to look and see what values they landed on in the print version (trying to read the text based on that youtube video is annoying) and my proposed houserule was off the cuff. I would have no problem linking the temp HP to a roll of that expended hit die +conmod if it seemed too out of line.

[NOMster]

I don't have the inclination to look and see what values they landed on in the print version (trying to read the text based on that youtube video is annoying) and my proposed houserule was off the cuff. I would have no problem linking the temp HP to a roll of that expended hit die +conmod if it seemed too out of line.
Hell, a number of shifts per long rest equal to 1+CON mod. Done. No extras, no HD math. I'd love that.

[T.G. Oskar]

Man the shifters suck even worse. I was hoping they fix them, but taking away a Prof and keeping shifting tied to short rests is terrible. I've been playing one for close to a year now and it just make shifting feel like more trouble than it's worth. Meanwhile in another group, the DM made it 3/long rest and it's so much better. Anyway, rant over.

The proficiency sucks, and removing the stuff from Swiftstride and Wildhunt indeed does suck, but IMO, the least of my worries involve Shifting as a short rest. In fact, as mentioned by old man Arkhios, Shifting originally was 1/day, and as indeed clarified afterwards, you could increase the amount of uses of Shifting one more time per day for every 2 Shifter feats you took. Do take note that, while Ability Score Increases and Feats were taken separately, you only had a total of 7 feats, and sacrificing up to six of your feats (and waiting for level 15) to get four uses of Shifting wasn't a good use of your resources. So, tops, you'd take about 2 feats, and that's it.

And, not all Shifter feats were good. I still remember Shifter Savagery - it increased the damage from your natural attacks, but it blocked every other source of damage increase. This included Improved Natural Attack, which was considered a Shifter feat (IIRC). It's like...taking the Unarmed Fighting Style from the most recent class features UA, but then getting a gauntlet that would allow you to increase your damage from unarmed strikes by one step as if you were a Monk. That'd be awesome...except not, because the former is a larger increase. (And in 3.5, you really wanted those damage increases.) You did get some fun stuff, though - Extra Shifter Trait was almost a requirement, because two shifter powers during shifting, and just requiring one more feat to get two uses was just peachy.

Compared to that, Shifting now is a bit more generous. If you feel any concern about it, how about suggesting racial feats for upcoming Eberron content (if they do any, which I hope they do; they NEED a sourcebook that explores the continents beyond Khorvaire) that enhance Shifters, and said feats grant one extra use of Shifting per SR?

I mean, it's not like it's Action Surge or a Warlock's spell slot, or Channel Divinity, where their instantaneous applications make them a liability once you face the One Big Fight problem. Shifting's meant to last for a while, so it'll last that OBF. That you can't transform at every instance is an issue, and it hurts Swiftstriders a lot more because they lost their speed boost, but at least it's not "I use my four empowered spell slots and then I'm back to cantrips!"

[NOMster]

The proficiency sucks, and removing the stuff from Swiftstride and Wildhunt indeed does suck, but IMO, the least of my worries involve Shifting as a short rest. In fact, as mentioned by old man Arkhios, Shifting originally was 1/day, and as indeed clarified afterwards, you could increase the amount of uses of Shifting one more time per day for every 2 Shifter feats you took. Do take note that, while Ability Score Increases and Feats were taken separately, you only had a total of 7 feats, and sacrificing up to six of your feats (and waiting for level 15) to get four uses of Shifting wasn't a good use of your resources. So, tops, you'd take about 2 feats, and that's it.

And, not all Shifter feats were good. I still remember Shifter Savagery - it increased the damage from your natural attacks, but it blocked every other source of damage increase. This included Improved Natural Attack, which was considered a Shifter feat (IIRC). It's like...taking the Unarmed Fighting Style from the most recent class features UA, but then getting a gauntlet that would allow you to increase your damage from unarmed strikes by one step as if you were a Monk. That'd be awesome...except not, because the former is a larger increase. (And in 3.5, you really wanted those damage increases.) You did get some fun stuff, though - Extra Shifter Trait was almost a requirement, because two shifter powers during shifting, and just requiring one more feat to get two uses was just peachy.

Compared to that, Shifting now is a bit more generous. If you feel any concern about it, how about suggesting racial feats for upcoming Eberron content (if they do any, which I hope they do; they NEED a sourcebook that explores the continents beyond Khorvaire) that enhance Shifters, and said feats grant one extra use of Shifting per SR?

I mean, it's not like it's Action Surge or a Warlock's spell slot, or Channel Divinity, where their instantaneous applications make them a liability once you face the One Big Fight problem. Shifting's meant to last for a while, so it'll last that OBF. That you can't transform at every instance is an issue, and it hurts Swiftstriders a lot more because they lost their speed boost, but at least it's not "I use my four empowered spell slots and then I'm back to cantrips!"

That's true but bonus feats and flaws (if the DM allowed) we're good way around 7 feats though. Savagery was good enough if used right with Weretouched master (that also gives bonus feats). Shifter stamina, instincts, extra trait, longtooth Elite, beasthide elite, Razorclaw elite were all excellent IMO. With the right setup, you could have 4 shifts/day by L9 or 10.

Oh well. I didn't mean to derail it. Here's hoping for racial feats.

[JackPhoenix]

Compared to that, Shifting now is a bit more generous. If you feel any concern about it, how about suggesting racial feats for upcoming Eberron content (if they do any, which I hope they do; they NEED a sourcebook that explores the continents beyond Khorvaire) that enhance Shifters, and said feats grant one extra use of Shifting per SR?

Unlikely we'll see another Eberron book. WotC focuses on FR way too much, and the only setting book we've got was SCAG years ago. That said, Keith Baker works on his own project with more Eberron lore provided (mostly things that didn't make it to 3.5 material back in the day), though that's separate from official sources.

Also, unlike FR, beyond mechanics, all lore from previous editions is still valid, and many of the mechanics either wouldn't be hard to translate, or deserve to never return (Planar Shepard....)

[Arkhios]

Unlikely we'll see another Eberron book. WotC focuses on FR way too much, and the only setting book we've got was SCAG years ago. That said, Keith Baker works on his own project with more Eberron lore provided (mostly things that didn't make it to 3.5 material back in the day), though that's separate from official sources.

Also, unlike FR, beyond mechanics, all lore from previous editions is still valid, and many of the mechanics either wouldn't be hard to translate, or deserve to never return (Planar Shepard....)

I feel like Eberron: Rising From the Last War in itself is kind of a huge dispute to your claim that they focus on FR way too much, because this book is THE first actual OTHER THAN FR setting book for a previously established and fully fleshed out setting. Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica came a little bit out of nowhere, but an official Eberron setting book has been long overdue.

I'd even go as far as to claim that, for now, WotC is satisfied with what they have released for FR and might actually be turning their focus towards other settings.
I honestly don't think it's very far fetched to look forward for another Eberron book in the relativelty near future.

[Dork_Forge]

I feel like Eberron: Rising From the Last War in itself is kind of a huge dispute to your claim that they focus on FR way too much, because this book is THE first actual OTHER THAN FR setting book for a previously established and fully fleshed out setting. Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica came a little bit out of nowhere, but an official Eberron setting book has been long overdue.

I'd even go as far as to claim that, for now, WotC is satisfied with what they have released for FR and might actually be turning their focus towards other settings.
I honestly don't think it's very far fetched to look forward for another Eberron book in the relativelty near future.

Can I ask why everyone thinks that WothC is so entrenched in FR? The only book for it was the SCAG, unless we're counting adventures (which I don't think we should) but even then we've seen some Greyhawk.

[stoutstien]

On the subject of SSI and dragonmarks spell counting as your class spells there are a few niche but interesting combos.
Knock- prison break in a can. Or ring what ever. Why isn't this on the class spell list to begin with???
Pass without a trace- +10 stealth for an army practically.
Silence- having a familiar spamming this can really mess with casters.
Darkness/fog cloud - concealment is concealment
Silent image- a better fog cloud.
Gust of wind- pretty weak but it's an air cannon.

[HappyDaze]

Can I ask why everyone thinks that WothC is so entrenched in FR? The only book for it was the SCAG, unless we're counting adventures (which I don't think we should) but even then we've seen some Greyhawk.

Why would you not count adventures? They have the vast bulk of all setting material produced by WotC for 5e. Ignoring them leave you with practically nothing as a sample.

[JackPhoenix]

I feel like Eberron: Rising From the Last War in itself is kind of a huge dispute to your claim that they focus on FR way too much, because this book is THE first actual OTHER THAN FR setting book for a previously established and fully fleshed out setting. Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica came a little bit out of nowhere, but an official Eberron setting book has been long overdue.

They've been releasing nothing but FR material for 4 years, only Ravnica broke that, and the newest adventure is still FR based, and so will be the next. All of the adventures are, with the honorable exception of Saltmarch earlier this year, even the latest incarnation of Ravenloft is connected to FR. Only getting something other than FR after 4 years is focusing way too much on FR.


I'd even go as far as to claim that, for now, WotC is satisfied with what they have released for FR and might actually be turning their focus towards other settings.
I honestly don't think it's very far fetched to look forward for another Eberron book in the relativelty near future.

I find that unlikely. As I've said, they've only released one setting book (I don't count VGtM and XHtE as setting books, though both carry FR flavor) for the setting they've been pushing in all the years since 5e release, I highly doubt they'll do more than one book for different setting. It's more likely we'll get another character option book unrelated to Eberron, more FR adventures, and basic introduction to a different setting. Keith Baker certainly didn't mention about other official books being planned, that's why he's doing his Project Raptor separately. Maaaaybe we'll get separate Eberron adventure, but most likely not, as it would either be mostly incompatible with FR (and thus general AL stuff), or worse, would require butchering Eberron to resemble FR.


Why would you not count adventures? They have the vast bulk of all setting material produced by WotC for 5e. Ignoring them leave you with practically nothing as a sample.

Ignoring adventures, we're (so far) left with SCAG (FR), VGtM (FR), XGtE (FR), and GGtR (MtG's Ravnica).

[sulimo0310]

They've been releasing nothing but FR material for 4 years, only Ravnica broke that, and the newest adventure is still FR based, and so will be the next. All of the adventures are, with the honorable exception of Saltmarch earlier this year, even the latest incarnation of Ravenloft is connected to FR. Only getting something other than FR after 4 years is focusing way too much on FR.



I find that unlikely. As I've said, they've only released one setting book (I don't count VGtM and XHtE as setting books, though both carry FR flavor) for the setting they've been pushing in all the years since 5e release, I highly doubt they'll do more than one book for different setting. It's more likely we'll get another character option book unrelated to Eberron, more FR adventures, and basic introduction to a different setting. Keith Baker certainly didn't mention about other official books being planned, that's why he's doing his Project Raptor separately. Maaaaybe we'll get separate Eberron adventure, but most likely not, as it would either be mostly incompatible with FR (and thus general AL stuff), or worse, would require butchering Eberron to resemble FR.



Ignoring adventures, we're (so far) left with SCAG (FR), VGtM (FR), XGtE (FR), and GGtR (MtG's Ravnica).

And Mordenkainen's Tom of Foes (Greyhawk)
And if you DO count adventures you have Ghosts of Saltmarsh (Greyhawk) and Curse of Strahd (Ravenloft). So several entries into other settings. Clearly FR has the most, but it's not like the other settings are completely ignored. They are moving at a slow pace this edition and when they launched they focused on their most popular setting. Now that 5e has matured a bit, I bet we start seeing more and more settings pop up.

[Dork_Forge]

Why would you not count adventures? They have the vast bulk of all setting material produced by WotC for 5e. Ignoring them leave you with practically nothing as a sample.

An adventure is not a setting and I wouldn't really take most of the information in them as anything but circumstantial to the adventure. Books like the SCAG and Wayfinders (now Rising) are actual lore dumps for a setting taht can be called a setting book.

[Millstone85]

Ignoring adventures, we're (so far) left with SCAG (FR), VGtM (FR), XGtE (FR), and GGtR (MtG's Ravnica).
And Mordenkainen's Tom of Foes (Greyhawk)Is a Character's Book of Stuff really tied to said character's original setting?

Those three could be considered setting neutral or default 5e Planescape.

[Luccan]

I feel like getting another Eberron book is unlikely. They're updating the most common mechanical options and introducing new players, but given the point of Eberron is that world events beyond a certain point are up to your table I doubt they'll bother to detail the rest of the world. That information exists online, unlike FR which theoretically still needs a great deal of setting detail filled out since it's moved into the future.

[Arkhios]

That's true but bonus feats and flaws (if the DM allowed) we're good way around 7 feats though. Savagery was good enough if used right with Weretouched master (that also gives bonus feats). Shifter stamina, instincts, extra trait, longtooth Elite, beasthide elite, Razorclaw elite were all excellent IMO. With the right setup, you could have 4 shifts/day by L9 or 10.

Oh well. I didn't mean to derail it. Here's hoping for racial feats.

I mean, the feats and prestige classes were all great toolkits to have been available, but if we're looking at the race itself, in a vacuum, comparing the race and its base traits from 3.5e version to 5e version, the latter is undisputedly better than it was before. Whatever they were in UA, it doesn't matter, because the to-be-released book is what counts. Besides, as I said earlier in another post (not sure if it was this thread or the latest UA-thread), the designers themselves have emphasized multiple times that Unearthed Arcana is playtest material, and is often built stronger first so it's easier to balance it down to be more in line with others.

[NOMster]

I mean, the feats and prestige classes were all great toolkits to have been available, but if we're looking at the race itself, in a vacuum, comparing the race and its base traits from 3.5e version to 5e version, the latter is undisputedly better than it was before.
Well in their introduction it spells out how feats increase it and the feats were in the same book, so you can't really seperate the two as they are simultaneous and released as a unit intended for use together. In a vacuum the race existed with the feats from the inception.


Whatever they were in UA, it doesn't matter, because the to-be-released book is what counts.

Yes. I said that also.

[HappyDaze]

An adventure is not a setting and I wouldn't really take most of the information in them as anything but circumstantial to the adventure. Books like the SCAG and Wayfinders (now Rising) are actual lore dumps for a setting taht can be called a setting book.

I'll go so far as to say SCAG was a dump of something, but it wasn't lore.

[sulimo0310]

Is a Character's Book of Stuff really tied to said character's original setting?

Those three could be considered setting neutral or default 5e Planescape.

It's as much a setting book as XGTE or VGTM. Which is to say not very much a setting book, but it has a little flavor colored in to let you know that those settings are "there" if no explicit mechanics or new deep lore tied to them. But it qualifies as much as the examples given. And adventures like Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Curse of Strahd serve as primers for the region in which their adventures take place. Much like Waterdeep: Dragonheist does for Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus does for BG.

[Dork_Forge]

I'll go so far as to say SCAG was a dump of something, but it wasn't lore.

Whether or not you like the book, a significant amount of it was devoted to lore for the FR unlike Xanathar's which was basically just player options and alt rules.

[Millstone85]

Is a Character's Book of Stuff really tied to said character's original setting?

Those three could be considered setting neutral or default 5e Planescape.
It's as much a setting book as XGTE or VGTM. Which is to say not very much a setting book, but it has a little flavor colored in to let you know that those settings are "there" if no explicit mechanics or new deep lore tied to them. But it qualifies as much as the examples given."It" being MToF, I assume? But my question was already about VGtM, XGtE and MToF.

[sulimo0310]

"It" being MToF, I assume? But my question was already about VGtM, XGtE and MToF.
Yes, "It" in this case refers to MToF. I apologize for being unclear. I agree with you that those three books are not exactly "setting books" per se. I was bringing up MToF in response to Jack Phoenix using VGtM and XGtE as examples of FR "setting" material and how if we exclude adventures that was all there was. I was just pointing out that if in his view VGtM and XGtM are FR setting material, then MToF would count the same for Greyhawk. I then went on to point out that adventures usually have more "setting" content in this edition than those kinds of "books of things" as you call them. Which is why I think the adventures should be included in a discussion about what settings are being supported. That's where the majority of setting material has come from at this point.

[T.G. Oskar]

On the topic of D&D's focus on Forgotten Realms (or the lack of it):

I do concur that there was too much of a focus on the setting, since most of the adventures were written on that setting (as mentioned, other than Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Curse of Strahd, every adventure not only was ran on Faerun, but specifically on the Sword Coast). If you go to the D&D website, and read the "Story" thus far, you'll notice that most of the "Heroes" are from Forgotten Realms (they specifically mention Drizzt and Minsc), and the "factions" are specifically from FR (the Harpers being the main, but also the Zhentarim). If you were to read that without being initiated, you'd think the main setting is actually the Forgotten Realms, because of all that's mentioned.

I'd consider the adventures, more than the splats, to define the bias. If you go by the splats only, the only book that is unabashedly biased towards FR is Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and that's because it's trying to detail as much information on the Sword Coast as possible, ignoring other parts of the world itself (Maztica, Kara-Tur, the Unapproachable East and the Shining South).

That said, WotC has definitely tried to expand and tie in to the idea of a multiverse, where different worlds exist. That the...what, third?..."Monster Manual" out there is Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes does lend to that idea, as well as the fact that they made one of their adventures in the Demiplane of Dread (though they haven't expanded beyond Barovia; note; "Ravenloft" is the name of the setting, but neither the plane NOR the actual section of that plane is called that). CoS has little, but significant, information about Barovia, including a beautiful map and explanation on various places that you'd otherwise be unable to explore in the previous iterations of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, to which CoS is essentially its inheritor. (After all; how many of the old guard can remember that Vallaki exists? Plus, the way Tarot cards and Madame Eva is used as a plot hook is pretty amazing.) They probably noticed in their surveys that people felt that bias, and decided to make Ghosts of Saltmarsh outside of FR (though, to be honest, it's easier to transplant Saltmarsh in FR than to transplant, say, Phandelin to Eberron), then a full splat on Ravnica (in an attempt to create a new setting that could use content from WotC's flagship, Magic: the Gathering), and then FINALLY create content for Eberron.

Do note one thing: 5e is heavy on how people perceive things. Content may be proven to be balanced, but if enough people claim it's not, that won't be released. It's the reason why the Mystic hasn't been released yet, and why, if it eventually comes out, it'll be as the Psion; it's the reason subclasses like the Brute and fighting styles like Mariner and Tunnel Fighter were dropped out, and why stuff like the Battlesystem and the alternate initiative rules haven't been released. Judging by the response from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, and how Eberron: Rising from the Last War plays out, we might see more Eberron content after all. Do consider that Eberron has a pretty ravid fanbase (to which I include myself; our party's next campaign WILL be in Eberron, and I'll take the helm as DM after a couple of years), so it's basically pandering to them (and to me, as well). Not having a follow-up adventure that gives that sweet ride through Khorvaire and maybe even Xen'drik would be criminal.

That, though, depends greatly on what WotC plans for. They're already taking the time to revise the previous rules, so we might be closer to a 5.5/Essentials 5th refresh, and they might drop the entire concept of focusing on one campaign to instead focus on the multiverse aspect; in fact, judging by how Crawford seems to talk about Eberron, the book itself may serve as a gateway to that revision. (In specific; the character he plays in one of the many celebrity campaigns is from Eberron, and he specifically mentioned how Eberron has been essentially isolated from the rest of the multiverse by the Ring of Siberys, but that there has been several cracks within, and the powers in other realms may realize there's a whole new world to explore).


That's true but bonus feats and flaws (if the DM allowed) we're good way around 7 feats though. Savagery was good enough if used right with Weretouched master (that also gives bonus feats). Shifter stamina, instincts, extra trait, longtooth Elite, beasthide elite, Razorclaw elite were all excellent IMO. With the right setup, you could have 4 shifts/day by L9 or 10.

Oh, I won't deny there were good feats. (I personally love Beasthide wherever it is; my second D&D character, Arrek, was primarily Beasthide, even if he was a Ranger spec'ced in Archery). That said, it all depends on whether you had access to bonus feats; Shifters could do decent Fighters and Rangers, but not decent casters (barring Druid, then the Moonspeaker PrC that allowed Item Creation feats to count as Shifter feats) or even classes like Paladin (which are feat starved). In particular; if a class was feat-starved, choosing a Shifter feat was a risky proposal.

Regarding Savagery - do note that there were a lot of ways to increase natural attack damage. Improved Natural Attack was one, and Warshaper was another. (In fact, because of their shapeshifter subtype, they automatically qualified, and their powers would activate while Shifting.) If you had more than two or three ways to improve your natural attack damage, choosing Shifter Savagery was a bad idea. And I feel bad for Weretouched Master, since while it gave you additional bonus feats, the capstone was nerfed horribly (you couldn't turn into a humanoid-animal hybrid anymore, just the animal itself; then again, turning into a Bear was pretty sick).


I'll go so far as to say SCAG was a dump of something, but it wasn't lore.

Hey. I resent that comment. Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide can be filled with the most unnecessary fluff you can imagine, in particular for someone who loathes FR as I do, but it has the Oath of the Crown Paladin, and it has the cantrips that every gish swears to (Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade). That content hasn't migrated over anywhere. (It also has Bladesinger, Monk of the Long Death, Battlerager, the Arcana Domain for Clerics and the Undying Patron for Warlocks, which hasn't migrated over either.) Even with XGtE taking the remainder and reworking them a slight bit, it's still full of usable content. (Plus, it has options for Half-Elves and Tieflings.)

It just follows Sturgeon's Law.

[HappyDaze]

Hey. I resent that comment. Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide can be filled with the most unnecessary fluff you can imagine, in particular for someone who loathes FR as I do, but it has the Oath of the Crown Paladin, and it has the cantrips that every gish swears to (Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade). That content hasn't migrated over anywhere. (It also has Bladesinger, Monk of the Long Death, Battlerager, the Arcana Domain for Clerics and the Undying Patron for Warlocks, which hasn't migrated over either.) Even with XGtE taking the remainder and reworking them a slight bit, it's still full of usable content. (Plus, it has options for Half-Elves and Tieflings.)

SCAG and AI are the only products that I ban at my table. I don't find it mechanically appealing in the least, especially not the unnecessary cantrips.

[Millstone85]

other than Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Curse of Strahd, every adventure not only was ran on Faerun, but specifically on the Sword CoastTomb of Annihilation mostly takes place in Chult, and several of the adventures in Tales from the Yawning Portal belong to Greyhawk.


That said, WotC has definitely tried to expand and tie in to the idea of a multiverse, where different worlds exist.I kind of dislike 5e's use of the term "multiverse". To me, it suggests alternate timelines and such, whereas 5e speaks of "worlds of the Material Plane" and has made multiple references to Spelljammer.


they made one of their adventures in the Demiplane of Dread (though they haven't expanded beyond Barovia; note; "Ravenloft" is the name of the setting, but neither the plane NOR the actual section of that plane is called that)According to the DMG, the Dark Powers are beings of the Shadowfell, and the Domains of Dread can be reached from remote corners of that plane.


he specifically mentioned how Eberron has been essentially isolated from the rest of the multiverse by the Ring of Siberys, but that there has been several cracks within, and the powers in other realms may realize there's a whole new world to exploreI am really curious to see how exactly the new book describes this. In a recent video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvGkY3JiIsM#t=7m20s), they described the Orrery as a "microcosmology" with a "micro material plane and these other small planes", which I think might not sit well with some fans.

[Dork_Forge]

SCAG and AI are the only products that I ban at my table. I don't find it mechanically appealing in the least, especially not the unnecessary cantrips.

Can I ask what you mean be AI?

And do you actually find the content unblanaced to the point of disruptive or are you just banning it because it's not to your tastes?

[stoutstien]

If anything artificer is a class to play if your games tend to have a lot of Downtime. Hello to nigh infinite casting of continual flame at the cost of pushing a button.
" Sure i can safely illuminate your fleet of ships. How's 1% of profits shares sound?I'll even toss in a few potions of water breathing and walk for free for emergency ship repairs."

[ProsecutorGodot]

Can I ask what you mean be AI?

And do you actually find the content unblanaced to the point of disruptive or are you just banning it because it's not to your tastes?

Acquisitions Incorporated. Not a lot of player content in it but the things that are are goofy with some room for exploitation.

[ImperiousLeader]

Acquisitions Incorporated. Not a lot of player content in it but the things that are are goofy with some room for exploitation.

I'm actually kinda impressed with the AI sourcebook. Yes, there's some flotsam, and it does have a specific tone which may or may not work for your table. But if you're at all interested in having your PCs run or be the part of any kind organization, be it a franchising corporation, or a kingdom, there is material here to mine.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm actually kinda impressed with the AI sourcebook. Yes, there's some flotsam, and it does have a specific tone which may or may not work for your table. But if you're at all interested in having your PCs run or be the part of any kind organization, be it a franchising corporation, or a kingdom, there is material here to mine.

Group Patron background is going to see a lot of use with our campaign having an adventuring company. It's a bit harder to retroactively work in the intern positions and such IMO.

I don't dislike Acq Inc myself but I can see why some would.

[Ravinsild]

One thing that bothers the f&$@ out of me is how Eberron goes on to talk about how Some Gnolls have shunned their demonic ancestry and try to live normally outside of being demonic corrupted raving beasts yet there’s still no PC stats whilst at the same time talking about why you might be in an adventuring party as a Gnoll. How dare you. Just make stats reeeeee

[Gydian]

Warforged:

Where are the docents, the arm-blades, the wandsheths, or the body mods?
Making the warforged less overpowered I understand, and I love monk above all other classes so going back to the old AC system is not so big for me. But It's a race of living constructs. Now they just LIVING constructs? I want to mod my Warforged with extra arms and ****.

[stoutstien]

Warforged:

Where are the docents, the arm-blades, the wandsheths, or the body mods?
Making the warforged less overpowered I understand, and I love monk above all other classes so going back to the old AC system is not so big for me. But It's a race of living constructs. Now they just LIVING constructs? I want to mod my Warforged with extra arms and ****.
There are some prosthetic limbs/magic items that might help fill this void.

[ImperiousLeader]

Warforged:

Where are the docents, the arm-blades, the wandsheths, or the body mods?
Making the warforged less overpowered I understand, and I love monk above all other classes so going back to the old AC system is not so big for me. But It's a race of living constructs. Now they just LIVING constructs? I want to mod my Warforged with extra arms and ****.

No, some made the book. Armblade and Wand Sheath are options for the Artificer to Infuse with the Replicate Magic Item Infusion. I think Docents were in Wayfarer's Guide, which should mean a reprint in Eberron. I'm hoping for Final Messengers.

[Damon_Tor]

Armblade and Wand Sheath are options for the Artificer to Infuse with the Replicate Magic Item Infusion.

I missed that: neat. I wonder if they closed the Wand Sheathe loophole that allowed artificers to get +8 to saves with their capstone instead of +6.

[stoutstien]

I missed that: neat. I wonder if they closed the Wand Sheathe loophole that allowed artificers to get +8 to saves with their capstone instead of +6.

How did that work? I thought a magic wand that requires attunement and the sheathe counted as one item

[Damon_Tor]

How did that work? I thought a magic wand that requires attunement and the sheathe counted as one item

They count as one item for one purpose:


"However, the wand sheathe and the attached wand only count as a single item for purposes of the maximum number of items you can be attuned to."

For other purposes, they remain two items. There are a number of ways they could have solved this problem. Most importantly, they should simply remove attunement from the sheathe entirely. There's just not much point to it.

[stoutstien]

They count as one item for one purpose:


"However, the wand sheathe and the attached wand only count as a single item for purposes of the maximum number of items you can be attuned to."

For other purposes, they remain two items. There are a number of ways they could have solved this problem. Most importantly, they should simply remove attunement from the sheathe entirely. There's just not much point to it.

Got ya, because the artificer Cal stone is based on total items and not attunement slots it counts as two. Good catch.

[Luccan]

One thing that bothers the f&$@ out of me is how Eberron goes on to talk about how Some Gnolls have shunned their demonic ancestry and try to live normally outside of being demonic corrupted raving beasts yet there’s still no PC stats whilst at the same time talking about why you might be in an adventuring party as a Gnoll. How dare you. Just make stats reeeeee

Oh, so 5e's gnoll lore stays intact even here... great.

I shouldn't complain too much, they make great no-guilt fodder for a game that has made underdark races, orcs, goblinoids ,and kobolds more multifaceted, but they were actually my favorite monstrous humanoids once.

[RifleAvenger]

Oh, so 5e's gnoll lore stays intact even here... great.

I shouldn't complain too much, they make great no-guilt fodder for a game that has made underdark races, orcs, goblinoids ,and kobolds more multifaceted, but they were actually my favorite monstrous humanoids once.I take great pains to disregard 5e gnoll lore, and I nurse a secret hatred for whoever at WotC made it and is so damn proud of it.

Also outright bizarre that they have text about how to run a gnoll PC, with no stats. Are they just assuming that gnoll players will just use one of the homebrews floating about?

[JackPhoenix]

And Mordenkainen's Tom of Foes (Greyhawk)

Derp, I totally forgot about that book. Dunno how, it's the one I actually own. It's not Greyhawk, though, it's generic 5e fantasy setting. Still, it's NOT FR.

[HappyDaze]

Derp, I totally forgot about that book. Dunno how, it's the one I actually own. It's not Greyhawk, though, it's generic 5e fantasy setting. Still, it's NOT FR.

Some might say that (a 5e version of) Greyhawk is a generic 5e fantasy setting.

[JackPhoenix]

Some might say that (a 5e version of) Greyhawk is a generic 5e fantasy setting.

Eh, so is FR (which is one of reasons why I think they won't be proper 5e setting book for GH, unfortunately). So is the implied setting in core books, which is neither FR or GH.

[T.G. Oskar]

Nitpicking the nitpicks, but don't take it in stride.


Tomb of Annihilation mostly takes place in Chult, and several of the adventures in Tales from the Yawning Portal belong to Greyhawk.

The principle mostly stands: the adventures have mostly focused on a specific part of a specific world. TftYP does have a menagerie of old modules that exist primarily in Greyhawk, true, so you can account that as several adventures instead of one, and they lack that sandbox quality that LMoP or CoS have, where the areas are fully fleshed so you can expand upon after the main story's done.

I'd say that adventures that allow a sort of "sandbox" quality, where you get enough information to create adventures outside of the main story, are prime to define where's the focus. Might seem a bit unfair (since it basically eliminates Tales from the Yawning Portal because of its concept as a collection of adventures, rather than a large one), but it should also remove one or two adventure collections that are specifically on Faerun (IIRC, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist)


I kind of dislike 5e's use of the term "multiverse". To me, it suggests alternate timelines and such, whereas 5e speaks of "worlds of the Material Plane" and has made multiple references to Spelljammer.

It...shouldn't, since a multiverse is defined as a multitude of universes. The key difference is whether you could consider an alternate timeline a different universe, since it's no longer part of the main continuum.

That said, 5e can use "multiverse" in the proper sense, if you consider each setting a different "universe". After all, Eberron's cosmology is vastly different from that of Faerun or Krynn or Greyhawk. Eberron ascribes to 13 worlds self-contained, whereas Greyhawk exists within the Great Wheel, and Faerun exists within the Great Tree (IIRC).

The issue here lies within Spelljammer, which made traveling between these settings possible, and to do so, it had to contain each as if it were different solar systems, thus making them part of the same "universe" (which would invalidate the concept of a multiverse, as it'd be essentially like traveling from Earth to Mars or Venus). There's also the thing that Spelljammer never accounted for Eberron and its vastly different cosmology, since a plane like Fernia, Risia or Syrania is vastly different from the Elemental Plane of Fire, the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Ice and the Elemental Plane of Air, respectively. Even Shavarath is different from Acheron, and Dolurrh to the Shadowfell, even though the latter is an invention from the preceding edition in an attempt to renovate the concept of a Plane of Shadow, making it a sort of transitory afterlife. That, or the fact that our conception of a "multiverse" tends to conflate the concept of "alternate timelines" and "multiple universes", thus marring everything.


According to the DMG, the Dark Powers are beings of the Shadowfell, and the Domains of Dread can be reached from remote corners of that plane.

This is a result of refluffing the Plane of Shadow as the Shadowfell. And the Dark Powers weren't defined originally, as far as I can recall, as part of the Plane of Shadow that eventually resurfaced as the Shadowfell; they're meant to be undefinable entities, much like the agents in Dark City, which mostly observed and rewrote the self-contained world to experiment on the human condition, on whether "nature vs. nurture" was stronger. The Demiplane/Domains of Dread are essentially a similar experiment, except they serve as prisons to the Darklords for the most part.

[Arkhios]

Eh, so is FR (which is one of reasons why I think they won't be proper 5e setting book for GH, unfortunately). So is the implied setting in core books, which is neither FR or GH.

Indeed. Basically, there is no default setting in 5th edition. For reference, 4th edition was, at first, vague about the default setting, but eventually it became known (informally) as the Points of Light or Nentir Vale setting.. It would seem that while 5th has taken the same approach, they've taken more careful steps for not to name any setting above others.

In other words, that the players perceive Forgotten Realms (or any other setting for that matter) as the default setting is just that, their perception, and thus entirely in their heads. Nothing of the sort has ever been claimed by the designers. Adventurer's League also doesn't dictate anything for the matter. Neither does the amount of books for any particular setting. What books we have, is only for now. There's zero mention in any of these books that would claim any of the settings as the default for 5th edition.

It's true that they have focused more on Forgotten Realms from the start, but that is mostly due to Forgotten Realms' popularity over the four decades that D&D has existed. Still, that doesn't mean Forgotten Realms was intended as the default setting. If it was intended to be default setting, they would have said so.

[Millstone85]

The issue here lies within Spelljammer, which made traveling between these settings possible, and to do so, it had to contain each as if it were different solar systems, thus making them part of the same "universe" (which would invalidate the concept of a multiverse, as it'd be essentially like traveling from Earth to Mars or Venus).The universe in question being the Prime one-and-only Material Plane. I guess other planes (Fire, Astral, etc.) can still be considered other universes, which is what allows 5e to call the Great Wheel a multiverse


There's also the thing that Spelljammer never accounted for Eberron and its vastly different cosmologySomething that Rising from the Last War seems to tackle. As I understand it, the new story goes that the Ring of Siberys make it so the inhabitants of Eberron can only plane shift to a bunch of demiplanes, collectively called the Orrery, masquerading as the true cosmology. Conversely, people beyond the Ring can not plane shift to these demiplanes. Even big players of the actual all-encompassing cosmology, the Great Wheel, have been kept unaware of Eberron's existence. But the Ring has been growing weaker, and one inhabitant of Eberron, a gnome artificer named Vi, has recently made her way to Sigil.

I am still too sick to go purchase my copy, so I am only going by interviews.
Edit: Like this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c#t=27m25s).

And Keith said, wait a second, what if that Ring is a shield? It is essentially, in Eberron, you can actually see what in other worlds we might refer to as the crystal sphere. [...] And [the Progenitors] made a world with little planes surrounding it, with the desire of controlling something of their own.
Or, as previously mentioned, this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvGkY3JiIsM#t=7m20s).

Eberron exists within its own sort of microcosmology. [...] It was intentionally sort of hidden away, to keep it safe from the extraplanar forces like Lolth and Asmodeus, of all these things like Gruumsh, that love to get in and meddle with mortal races. And even gods like Moradin or Corellon or Pelor.

[RifleAvenger]

On the downside OOC, I don't like Eberron's original cosmology being suborned to the Great Wheel. Especially if it mucks with Eberron's looser interpretation of the alignments.

On the upside IC, if this means Eberron characters get afterlives besides Dolurrh, probably a better fate for Good and Neutral characters. Again though, OOC that defeats the interesting wrinkle that there is no intrinsic reward or punishment in Eberron for one's actions in life.

[8wGremlin]

On the downside OOC, I don't like Eberron's original cosmology being suborned to the Great Wheel. Especially if it mucks with Eberron's looser interpretation of the alignments.

On the upside IC, if this means Eberron characters get afterlives besides Dolurrh, probably a better fate for Good and Neutral characters. Again though, OOC that defeats the interesting wrinkle that there is no intrinsic reward or punishment in Eberron for one's actions in life.

They didn't did they... that really spoils the whole different cosmology, the Great wheel and it's alignment structure really limit the imagination. What they did with Eberron was good, you had reasons for things, the way the planes influenced the world had rational well thought out structure.

Disappointed again, with the dumbing down and limiting guiding principle the design team has. (first disgruntled post ever on this forum)

[Ravinsild]

Oh, so 5e's gnoll lore stays intact even here... great.

I shouldn't complain too much, they make great no-guilt fodder for a game that has made underdark races, orcs, goblinoids ,and kobolds more multifaceted, but they were actually my favorite monstrous humanoids once.

No that's what's so disrespectful. An excerpt from Wayfinder's Guide:

"In ancient times, the gnolls were servants of the fiendish Overlords. Some are savage creatures that remain in the thrall of these demons. But the largest population of gnolls is the Znir Pact of Droaam. Thousands of years ago, these gnolls purged themselves of demonic influence and swore to never allow any other creature to hold dominion over them. The Znir Pact sell their services as soldiers and trackers. Most of the Pact currently serves the Daughters of Sora Kell in Droaam, but some fought in the Last War as agents of House Tharashk, and Tharashk continues to broker their services.

As a gnoll, you could be a former mercenary who’s chosen to stay with comrades you met during your service; as a rule, Znir gnolls are deeply loyal to those that they consider to be members of their pack. You might be driven by curiosity, eager to explore the world beyond Droaam. You could be driven by visions of a demonic power rising in the Five Nations or working on behalf of the Daughters of Sora Kell. Or you could be a mercenary still, insisting on regular payment for your ongoing services to the party."

Then proceeds to not have Gnoll PC stats and basically what's the point of this? I don't understand? Why be like "GNOLLS AREN'T EVIL HERE TOTALLY NORMAL AND CAN EVEN BE ADVENTURERS. NO STATS THOUGH SORRY." ??????? hello? why? What is this?

[Comaward]

For Eberron, I personally would just use the stats of the PC lizardfolk, but switch out Draconic in favor of Goblin or something.

[JackPhoenix]

Then proceeds to not have Gnoll PC stats and basically what's the point of this? I don't understand? Why be like "GNOLLS AREN'T EVIL HERE TOTALLY NORMAL AND CAN EVEN BE ADVENTURERS. NO STATS THOUGH SORRY." ??????? hello? why? What is this?

It's "They have little importance in Eberron and we feel no need to add every minor race that used to be playable in the past, especially if it's not central to the setting".

[Gydian]

In the Eberron lore The warforged were not built all identical. If there race options or so limited that all you can do is pick 1 state bump, tool, and skill stuff, than there are so many warforged that you will interact that you cant play. Seriously wtf!

Ape charge warforged?

Extra arm warforged?

Empty treasure compartment warforged?

There are more I cant think of flight now.

[Ravinsild]

It's "They have little importance in Eberron and we feel no need to add every minor race that used to be playable in the past, especially if it's not central to the setting".

You just hurt my feelings :( Gnolls are important, haha.

[Luccan]

It's "They have little importance in Eberron and we feel no need to add every minor race that used to be playable in the past, especially if it's not central to the setting".

I think that's a bad precedent to set. At least without any monster->PC conversion guidelines. Might as well say they're explicitly unplayable for all the good "this race can be PCs, no we won't give you an easy way to do that" does.

[Damon_Tor]

It's "They have little importance in Eberron and we feel no need to add every minor race that used to be playable in the past, especially if it's not central to the setting".

Seems a bit arbitrary; why are shifters given stats? Why are changelings? Or orcs? I had fun playing as a Droaam-based mercenary company in prior editions, the concept of a "monster nation" is fascinating and it's an established part of the setting. Their connection to Droaam make them more important to the setting than Shifters or Changelings in my opinion.

[Evaar]

Oh, so 5e's gnoll lore stays intact even here... great.

I shouldn't complain too much, they make great no-guilt fodder for a game that has made underdark races, orcs, goblinoids ,and kobolds more multifaceted, but they were actually my favorite monstrous humanoids once.

I just want to point out, Eberron's gnolls were demon-worshippers long before 5e ever came out. You can read this stuff in the old novels, source books, and even blog posts (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-66-droaam-and-the-daughters-of-sora-kell/). There's no compromise of the setting happening here.

On the topic of having their stats because they exist, I'm sympathetic to wanting to play a gnoll in this context. I think they probably could and should have done stats. But keep in mind that Droaam is also home to medusas, harpies, trolls, manticores, and all sorts of other things you probably wouldn't expect a player stat block for. Gnolls aren't as inherently problematic as those things given their lack of inherent monster powers, but I can see why it might've been set aside as out of scope. Maybe we'll see something in the Exploring Eberron book.

[Ravinsild]

It is entirely possible gnolls merely aren’t as popular as I would hope or like to think. I do love Gnolls and I was vexed when they weren’t included into Volo’s because it was drawing from FR lore I think where they are all evil demon spawn no matter what.

Disappointed in a setting where they are not they still didn’t stat them out for PC

[MeeposFire]

Seems a bit arbitrary; why are shifters given stats? Why are changelings? Or orcs? I had fun playing as a Droaam-based mercenary company in prior editions, the concept of a "monster nation" is fascinating and it's an established part of the setting. Their connection to Droaam make them more important to the setting than Shifters or Changelings in my opinion.

Well the big reason is that those races were either explictly in teh original Eberron Campaign Setting book as base races or are a part of a major traditional player character faction (one of the Dragon mark houses has a lot of influence from Orcs). Gnolls have neither of these.

Granted I would add them in because I like adding races but if I was going to cut just one race between gnolls and the races we got (considering that orcs apparently got an upgrade) yea gnolls probably make the most sense to cut. I would rather have them than not but they may have other plans for gnolls later.

[JackPhoenix]

Seems a bit arbitrary; why are shifters given stats? Why are changelings? Or orcs? I had fun playing as a Droaam-based mercenary company in prior editions, the concept of a "monster nation" is fascinating and it's an established part of the setting. Their connection to Droaam make them more important to the setting than Shifters or Changelings in my opinion.

Shifters and changelings are Eberron-specific races, they don't exist elsewhere. There's little need to put new stats for orcs them into Eberron book, I suspect their presence is more of a stealth fix for the atrocious VGtM version, but orcs are certainly more important than gnolls are, due to them being the original Khorvaire druids.

Their connection to Droaam doesn't make gnolls any less irrelevant in the rest of the setting. Unless your game is set in Droaam or Breland, you're unlikely to meet a Znir gnoll. And even in Droaam, they pretty much serve as minions for the rulers, a role in which they are replacable. Znir pact's neutrality and non-interference policy kinda acts against them in this regard.

By the way, (ignoring Eberron for a moment) I like the new lore for gnolls. It gives them some identity beyond "basically orcs, but furry and slightly tougher" which was the extent of gnoll's role in previous editions.

[Arkhios]

In the Eberron lore The warforged were not built all identical. If there race options or so limited that all you can do is pick 1 state bump, tool, and skill stuff, than there are so many warforged that you will interact that you cant play. Seriously wtf!

Ape charge warforged?

Extra arm warforged?

Empty treasure compartment warforged?

There are more I cant think of flight now.

Trying my best to ignore the spelling here, but how is a Variant Human any different from that? Because thirteen in a dozen times people tend to choose a variant human over any other race just for the chance to take one feat from a very narrow list of feats. How are they not identical to each other in the same way as you claim the warforged would be? And why is this not an issue, but somehow the warforged is going to be?

[Evaar]

So I asked Keith Baker if he’d consider putting together a stat block for playable Gnolls in the next Eberron book he’s releasing, Exploring Eberron. I got this response:


Exploring Eberron will delve into Droaam, including gnolls!

That doesn’t promise mechanics, and any mechanics that did appear would still effectively be homebrew, but maybe that gives the Gnoll fans something to hope for.

[HolyDraconus]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the wording on infusions now make it to where the item no longer MUST be mundane before you can infuse them.... doesn't that mean an artificer can have a +5 weapon?

[Arkhios]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the wording on infusions now make it to where the item no longer MUST be mundane before you can infuse them.... doesn't that mean an artificer can have a +5 weapon?

Difficult to say without the book in front of me. I'd take everything from the videos with a grain of salt until then.

[HolyDraconus]

Difficult to say without the book in front of me. I'd take everything from the videos with a grain of salt until then.

Nevermind. Its not on the table but its in the description. Meh.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Difficult to say without the book in front of me. I'd take everything from the videos with a grain of salt until then.

The book is available now on DND Beyond, the item is still required to be mundane (nonmagical) before infusion. The wording is identical to the UA version.

[JackPhoenix]

There's also gnoll as NPC "race" in DMG: +2 Str, -2 Int, 60' Darkvision and Rampage.

[Arkhios]

Nevermind. Its not on the table but its in the description. Meh.

Heh. That somehow reminds me of the painfully typical way of handling quests in various RPG videogames (such as WoW, in my case; do note, this is just as much sarcasm as it is self-irony).

Questgiver: "The quest text rolls slowly, word for word..."
Player: "Cut the crap, get to the point, give me the quest already" *clicks the Accept button before reading the instructions*
...Later, at the quest location:
Player: "Where the F is this target objective, I can't find it!"
...all the while, the quest, should you have read it, gives clear instructions with which you would find the target with ease, but no, reading is boring...


The book is available now on DND Beyond, the item is still required to be mundane (nonmagical) before infusion. The wording is identical to the UA version.

To be honest, that feels a bit unfair. Hardcovers may have been revealed from the wraps in Local Gaming Stores but the opening hours vary (especially from a time zone to another), and I still maintain the opinion it's bollocks to pay twice for the same product just because of different (plat)form. :smallfrown: :smallannoyed:

[ProsecutorGodot]

To be honest, that feels a bit unfair. Hardcovers may have been revealed from the wraps in Local Gaming Stores but the opening hours vary (especially from a time zone to another), and I still maintain the opinion it's bollocks to pay twice for the same product just because of different (plat)form. :smallfrown: :smallannoyed:

While it was disappointing to lose out on special covers and a nice shelf collection, DND Beyond is a lot better for my group play.

You don't necessarily pay twice for content once you switch over to DND Beyond as a main book source. Use them for online play, bring them up on a tablet or phone for table play.

[stoutstien]

While it was disappointing to lose out on special covers and a nice shelf collection, DND Beyond is a lot better for my group play.

You don't necessarily pay twice for content once you switch over to DND Beyond as a main book source. Use them for online play, bring them up on a tablet or phone for table play.

Ill stick to hard copies😀. I wish the books had a built in online option sometimes but I have shotty internet so more of a searchable digital text would be best.

A few of my games I disallow phones, tablets, and other digital devices for the joy of the simplicity of pen and paper. Maybe I'm just old and all this dang techno babble makes me feel even older.

[Evaar]

So I asked Keith Baker if he’d consider putting together a stat block for playable Gnolls in the next Eberron book he’s releasing, Exploring Eberron. I got this response

Someone else replied to him saying the response wasn’t explicitly a “yes” and he responded saying “It’s a yes.”

So sounds like you’ll at least get Keith Baker’s version of a Gnoll stat block for adventurers.

[Ravinsild]

Someone else replied to him saying the response wasn’t explicitly a “yes” and he responded saying “It’s a yes.”

So sounds like you’ll at least get Keith Baker’s version of a Gnoll stat block for adventurers.

Well at least it's someone's! I mean if you check my signature I myself took a stab at making a PC Gnoll Race and according to that "is it balanced" calculator that's floating around the score came to 27 so yeah it's balanced maybe even on the weaker side. So hey I think I did good, but not every DM will let me run my homebrew so having a real life book as an option that's official will feel good man.

[AgenderArcee]

Well at least it's someone's! I mean if you check my signature I myself took a stab at making a PC Gnoll Race and according to that "is it balanced" calculator that's floating around the score came to 27 so yeah it's balanced maybe even on the weaker side. So hey I think I did good, but not every DM will let me run my homebrew so having a real life book as an option that's official will feel good man.

Exploring Eberron won't be official WotC product, though it will have extra weight compared to typical Homebrew since it comes from the actual creator of the official setting.

[Joe the Rat]

There's also gnoll as NPC "race" in DMG: +2 Str, -2 Int, 60' Darkvision and Rampage.
So basically orcs, only furry and slightly faster.

[Pex]

Personal bias since I started a new warforged artificer a month before the book came out, utilizing D&D Beyond. I'm only level 2 so I'm not adversely affected with artificer. In fact I gain an infusion known. The subclass I wanted is still there, and overall the changes from unearthed arcana are ribbon changes relatively speaking. As for warforged, I was playing an Envoy with total +2 CO +1 IN anyway, so the only major change is the integrated armor. Using Wayfinder warforged and class abilities, my AC at level 2 is 20. Using official warforged and class abilities, my AC at level 2 would be . . . 20. What's different is the aesthetic of how armor works, and I won't get very high for 5E AC at later levels since there's no more +proficiency to AC. The DM was open to letting me use the original wayfinder warforged unearthed arcana artificer, but it's just as well I use the official stuff.

Whew! :smallsmile:

[Envyus]

So basically orcs, only furry and slightly faster.

Rampage is a different ability. They slower than Orcs. It allows them to make a bite attack and mover after downing a creature.

[Envyus]

Using official warforged and class abilities, my AC at level 2 would be . . . 20. What's different is the aesthetic of how armor works, and I won't get very high for 5E AC at later levels since there's no more +proficiency to AC.


20 AC is really good AC

[Ravinsild]

Okay, regarding the new Orc race - how does Aggression work? You only get 30 movement speed as an Orc (barring buffs from this or that or the other). So you move 30 feet. Now you can't use your bonus action to move? Or is it basically a dash action built into the race?