The problem with Thor and Durkon's plan.

[Ninja Dragon]

So I've been thinking about Thor/Durkon's plan make a truce with Redcloak so they can repair the rifts and keep the Snarl from destroying the world. It's a hard plan, because it requires Redcloak to abandon his Sunk Cost Fallacy, but theory Durkon could offer peace and teritory to the goblinkind and get Redcloak to cooperate in exchange for it, assuming they have turned Xykon into an immobile pile of bones by then.

But I have a problem with this plan: what is stopping Redcloak from having his cake and eating it?

Let's say Durkon just told Redcloak about the plan (RC accepted to listen to him because he's smart enough not to refuse tactical intel). Redcloak can then just shrug, do the ritual to teleport the Snarl, enslave the gods, and then get them to repair the rifts along with him. Now the threat of the Snarl is contained and the Dark One rules everything forever. And the gods can't even destroy the world if they see RC is about to do that, because they have an agreement not to do it unless the Godsmoot decides for it (and the Godsmoot is currently on indefinite hold).

The only way I could see RC accepting Durkon's proposal is if he's already defeated, about to die, and The OOTS offers it as an alternative to dieing and never seeing The Plan come into fruition. But that's way less exciting than the epic diplomacy feat I wanna see Dukon pull off.

Any ideas?

[The MunchKING]

because if they reinforce the Gate, the Snarl can't get out of it, so he loses his gun to the head of the other Gods. At which point he's traded all the good will the other Gods would have for fixing the Snarl problem, to instead get the Gods even more ticked than they were before.

[Peelee]

Redcloak needs Xykon to enact The Plan. Once the ritual is completed, Xykon will realize he's been tricked, and will almost certainly kill Redcloak. This would leave TDO without a suitable cleric to enact Thor's/Durkon's plan, meaning when the world dies, TDO dies with it.

So Reddie really can't eat his cake and have it too. Hell need to make a choice.

[Ninja Dragon]

because if they reinforce the Gate, the Snarl can't get out of it, so he loses his gun to the head of the other Gods. At which point he's traded all the good will the other Gods would have for fixing the Snarl problem, to instead get the Gods even more ticked than they were before.

Hadn't really thought of that. I don't think it was stated in-comic but it makes sense. RC needs the rifts to use the gate teleportation thing, I suppose.

[Peelee]

Hadn't really thought of that. I don't think it was stated in-comic but it makes sense. RC needs the rifts to use the gate teleportation thing, I suppose.

Actually, assuming that the ritual did get pulled off and Redcloak lived to help, it wouldn't quite work out like that; Thor said they could spot weld as new rifts form, if a TDO cleric helps. So if TDO did help with the existing ones, then the gods would likely destroy the world which kills TDO, or TDO would not help with the existing ones and all of existence would likely end because TDO would then be the remaining god and he can't create anything with any real substance without other divine essences, and he'd eventually die regardless.

Basically there's no way for TDO to really fulfill his plan without dying. He just doesn't know this, and whether he and/or Redcloak believe the claim will be the question.

[factotum]

You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.

[Sir_Norbert]

One ninth-level spell doesn't mean any ninth-level spell. It can, but it's a real stretch to suppose that meaning applies in this case.

[The MunchKING]

At the very least I would say it has to be cast at the gate.

But yeah I interpreted it as less "he has to cast a 9th level spell", and more "we need the POWER of a 9th level spell, cast in an elaborate gate-recreating ritual".

[Peelee]

You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.

A man in the desert just needs water, but if you have a gallon jug and dump it out in his general direction, you haven't solved any problems.

How that spell slot is used is probably important, I'd wager.

[hroþila]

I wouldn't assume that the gods can't destroy the world as long as the godsmoot is on hold. If it looks like the last gate is about to be destroyed, I fully expect them to blow up the world. If that's what they consider the proper procedure, then either they have a pre-existing explicit agreement to do it on the spot (an agreement that could have been reached at previous godsmoots or during previous worlds), or it is understood that their own immediate safety takes precedence over the rules of the godsmoot. That's how I see it, anyway.

[Morty]

I personally doubt that Durkon will be able to enact Thor's plan in a way similar to how Thor envisioned it. Maybe not for the reasons described here, but it's fairly optimistic in general and assumes that Redcloak is far more reasonable than he actually is.

[Riftwolf]

I wouldn't assume that the gods can't destroy the world as long as the godsmoot is on hold. If it looks like the last gate is about to be destroyed, I fully expect them to blow up the world. If that's what they consider the proper procedure, then either they have a pre-existing explicit agreement to do it on the spot (an agreement that could have been reached at previous godsmoots or during previous worlds), or it is understood that their own immediate safety takes precedence over the rules of the godsmoot. That's how I see it, anyway.

This. Basically the Godsmoot is being held because there's still a question of the Snarl/rifts being contained. Once that's out the window, the Gods can pull the plug with ten minutes warning (according to Loki), so they probably bypass formal structures.

[The Giant]

So I've been thinking about Thor/Durkon's plan make a truce with Redcloak so they can repair the rifts and keep the Snarl from destroying the world. It's a hard plan, because it requires Redcloak to abandon his Sunk Cost Fallacy, but theory Durkon could offer peace and teritory to the goblinkind and get Redcloak to cooperate in exchange for it, assuming they have turned Xykon into an immobile pile of bones by then.

But I have a problem with this plan: what is stopping Redcloak from having his cake and eating it?

Let's say Durkon just told Redcloak about the plan (RC accepted to listen to him because he's smart enough not to refuse tactical intel). Redcloak can then just shrug, do the ritual to teleport the Snarl, enslave the gods, and then get them to repair the rifts along with him. Now the threat of the Snarl is contained and the Dark One rules everything forever. And the gods can't even destroy the world if they see RC is about to do that, because they have an agreement not to do it unless the Godsmoot decides for it (and the Godsmoot is currently on indefinite hold).

The only way I could see RC accepting Durkon's proposal is if he's already defeated, about to die, and The OOTS offers it as an alternative to dieing and never seeing The Plan come into fruition. But that's way less exciting than the epic diplomacy feat I wanna see Dukon pull off.

Any ideas?

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.


You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.

No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

[WolvesbaneIII]

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.



No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

Very informative without giving away any spoilers. well done.

[LadyEowyn]

Thank you for clarifying all of that, and especially the last bit. I thought was obvious, but it’s been being debated for ages.

The benefit of Thor and Durkon’s plan is that it means Redcloak and the Dark One can bargain using “if you meet our demands, we will help you contain the Snarl” rather than “unless you meet our demands, we will release the Snarl”.

Redcloak and the Dark One already want to negotiate, after a fashion; this just lets them shift the negotiations from being on the basis of Mutually Assured Destruction to being on the basis of mutual benefit.

It’s the difference between having a nuke and having (to substantially understate the case) the cure for cancer.

The main gap in this new plan is that the Order aren’t aware of some crucial information - that the gods created the goblins as cannon fodder - and that Thor hadn’t offered any concessions (and does not appear to have any authority to negotiate on behalf of the other gods). So there’s still a lot of potential twists and turns.

I am very, very, very excited for the next book.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That’s a lot of very helpful information. I didn’t really click with me that the Dark One wouldn’t have any particular control over the Snarl, just over the location of the Gate, until now. I am also very excited for the next book!

[factotum]

No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

Oh, OK, cool! That makes things a lot clearer, thanks.


The main gap in this new plan is that the Order aren’t aware of some crucial information - that the gods created the goblins as cannon fodder

We still don't know for 100% sure that's actually true, though. The Dark One told Redcloak that via the Crimson Mantle, but he's an evil god and is under no obligation to tell the truth to his followers.

[Rektascensja]

Well, isn't the biggest problem with Thor's plan the fact that they talked about it on panel? Elan would tell you that discussed plans never work as intended. :)

[Yirggzmb]

Well, isn't the biggest problem with Thor's plan the fact that they talked about it on panel? Elan would tell you that discussed plans never work as intended. :)

This is what I've been thinking lol Fortunately, the plan described was still pretty vague ("Well need to seal things with purple energy. Get Redcloak to help. We'll handle the rest when you let me know he's on board") so I don't think it's doomed to failure or anything. But it's definitely not going to be as simple as Thor tried to make it sound. Something is gonna come up. Probably several somethings.

My hunch is that it's gonna be something with the planet in the rift. We've been reminded of it relatively recently (can't remember the specific number), so there's no way that's gonna go unused. And then also, of course, all the problems involved with getting Redcloak to sit down and listen.

[Peelee]

We still don't know for 100% sure that's actually true, though. The Dark One told Redcloak that via the Crimson Mantle, but he's an evil god and is under no obligation to tell the truth to his followers.

I would see it more as "he doesn't actually know the full truth" than "he's lying," since lying to his own people about his cause doesn't really strike me as something TDO would do, from what little we've been told in comic (and I'll readily admit it's from a biased source). That being said, it makes sense; why else did the goblins have no deity to worship?

[factotum]

That being said, it makes sense; why else did the goblins have no deity to worship?

The Elves don't seem to have had their own deities either, with all of theirs being created by worship after the world's creation, yet I don't think anyone ever said they were created as XP fodder?

[Peelee]

The Elves don't seem to have had their own deities either, with all of theirs being created by worship after the world's creation, yet I don't think anyone ever said they were created as XP fodder?

We don't know if they did or not; the dwarves also got a demigod raised among themselves like the elves did, despite having the Northern Pantheon to worship.

This is a pretty weak rebuttal, I'll admit.

[LadyEowyn]

We do know that goblins and hobgoblins are very short-lived, tend to be weaker than the PC species, and generally aren’t any good at arcane spellcasting. All of those things fit with the idea that they were created for the purpose of being XP fodder. Contrast this with other non-humanoids like the lizardfolk who seems to be basicallly on a par with humans in terms of skills and strength.

The anti-aging effect of the Mantle is the only reason Redcloak’s had the chance to become as powerful as he is.

[factotum]

We do know that goblins and hobgoblins are very short-lived, tend to be weaker than the PC species, and generally aren’t any good at arcane spellcasting. All of those things fit with the idea that they were created for the purpose of being XP fodder.

But this is assuming that there are no other monsters which fit that role, and the fact is, there are. Dire Rats, for instance, which are the same CR as goblins. There was no need for the gods to create goblins to get their clerics beyond level 1, so I question if they actually did so or if that's just what the Dark One says in order to get his high priests on-side for a plan that, when all's said and done, could lead to the destruction of the entire goblin race.

[Fyraltari]

But this is assuming that there are no other monsters which fit that role

That's not what Redcloaks says, though:

So the gods met again and made a crucial decision: to fashion races of humanoid monsters to further populate the world. They created goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, orcs, kobolds, lizardfolk and dozens of others. And that's not even counting the ones that were added later in other monster books.

[Rrmcklin]

The Elves don't seem to have had their own deities either, with all of theirs being created by worship after the world's creation, yet I don't think anyone ever said they were created as XP fodder?

Not true; the Elves don't only worship the Elven Gods, Mr. Burlew has said they also worship some Western Gods. He has also clarified that the Goblins worshipped literally no one before the Dark One ascended.

[factotum]

That's not what Redcloaks says, though

And as I've already pointed out at least twice, what Redcloak says about these things cannot be trusted because his information comes ultimately from the Dark One--who, even if he isn't lying, *was not present* when those supposed events took place, due to a terminal case of not having been born yet.

[Fyraltari]

I get that and I agree with it, but you’re contesting a claim, ‘the goblins in particular were screwed by the gods’, that not even Redcloak is making.

[arverst_aegnar]

Has anyone other than Redcloak ever mentioned the "goblins created as XP fodder" thing? I've never done a thorough search.

I suspect we're going to find out a lot more about that element in the next book -- well, 'suspect' in the same way i 'suspect' we'll be seeing Team Evil in the next book, and that i 'suspect' Belkar will breathe his last breath ever before the end.

It's not necessary that TDO was lying, or even completely incorrect. There are a lot of gods, after all, with very varied alignments, and we saw in the scribble comics* that the gods agreed not to contest the additions of others, even if they didn't like it or thought it didn't match the theme. But i find it very interesting that Thor didn't bring this up when he was sharing his plan with Durkon. If i was part of, or aware of, a divine plot to create a race of sapient creatures solely for the purpose of giving clerics XP, i would definitely share that information with the guy i need to bargain with said creatures, partially on behalf of said gods.

I'll be surprised if TDO's version was totally without basis. I'll also be surprised if there was a universal agreement among the gods to screw over the goblins/hobgoblins/orcs/kobolds/et al.

*I'm aware the crayon drawings are not 100% accurate, but that particular detail dovetails with the origin and nature of the Snarl, and with what we've seen of the gods' interactions since then.

[Fyraltari]

Has anyone other than Redcloak ever mentioned the "goblins created as XP fodder" thing? I've never done a thorough search.

Right-Eye, but his information comes from Redcloak, presumably.

[thereaper]

The bigger problem with their plan is that it does not address the world in the rift.

[Peelee]

Thor's plan doesn't involve something he doesn't know about.

That.... Makes sense, though?

[Morty]

I sincerely doubt that Redcloak's story in SoD will turn out to be a big fat lie. Part of it is based on the Giant's own views on the subject, but also because all the crayon stories thus far were accurate, just incomplete. So I expect the story of how the goblinoids were created as XP fodder to be broadly accurate but miss some crucial information or context.

[factotum]

I sincerely doubt that Redcloak's story in SoD will turn out to be a big fat lie. Part of it is based on the Giant's own views on the subject, but also because all the crayon stories thus far were accurate, just incomplete.

Do we know the crayon stories were "accurate, just incomplete"? I mean, we're reasonably sure the Snarl exists and is trapped inside the world (since we saw it reaching out in the desert after the destruction of Girard's pyramid), but we also know it's sharing its prison with a planet of some kind, and it's difficult to resolve how those two things fit together. At the very least, the part of the crayons which says the Snarl is a mindless creature of pure chaos has to be wrong, surely?

[Morty]

Do we know the crayon stories were "accurate, just incomplete"? I mean, we're reasonably sure the Snarl exists and is trapped inside the world (since we saw it reaching out in the desert after the destruction of Girard's pyramid), but we also know it's sharing its prison with a planet of some kind, and it's difficult to resolve how those two things fit together. At the very least, the part of the crayons which says the Snarl is a mindless creature of pure chaos has to be wrong, surely?

Shojo's story told us that the gods had created the Snarl with their bickering. That is true. It's also true that it killed the Gods of the East. The gods imprisoning it within another world is also true. Eventually, cracks started to appear in the Snarl's prison. Also true. What Shojo didn't know and couldn't say was that there had been countless words between the first and current one.

Everything we saw that differs from Shojo's recount is an omission, not a falsehood. Either through Shojo's lack of knowledge or the gods'. As far as the Snarl being a mindless creature of pure chaos... how do we know it is or isn't, exactly? We've never seen it do anything other than lash out outside of a crayon section. It seems to have done everything others have claimed it has, but its motives are a mystery.

[Fyraltari]

Thor's plan doesn't involve something he doesn't know about.

That.... Makes sense, though?

That’s still a flaw in his plan, though even if it is of no fault of his own.

[factotum]

As far as the Snarl being a mindless creature of pure chaos... how do we know it is or isn't, exactly?

Because it's sharing its prison with a planet, something it would surely have destroyed if it were a creature of pure chaos.

[Fyraltari]

Because it's sharing its prison with a planet, something it would surely have destroyed if it were a creature of pure chaos.

Unless it is physically unable to. We know it didn't destroy it, we don't know that's by choice.

[Morty]

Because it's sharing its prison with a planet, something it would surely have destroyed if it were a creature of pure chaos.

There's several unfounded assumptions right here, starting with the fact that we don't know if can, as Fyraltari said, or if it's even aware of the planet. The existence of the planet in the rift doesn't render anything in Shojo's crayon section untrue. It simply adds new information, one that Shojo presumably didn't have. Though it does raise a question if the

[Peelee]

There's several unfounded assumptions right here, starting with the fact that we don't know if can, as Fyraltari said, or if it's even aware of the planet. The existence of the planet in the rift doesn't render anything in Shojo's crayon section untrue. It simply adds new information, one that Shojo presumably didn't have. Though it does raise a question if the

"Whoever's directing this is a master of suspense!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez

[Morty]

As I was going to type but apparently forgot to, it does raise the question if the Order of the Scribble knew about it.

[Fyraltari]

As I was going to type but apparently forgot to, it does raise the question if the Order of the Scribble knew about it.

I see no reason why Soon would trust Shojo's father with only part of the super secret lore, so my bet is no.

I do not count Kraagor being alive and having learned about it when falling into the rift as "the Ordred of the Scribble knowing about it", mind.

[Cavenskull]

But this is assuming that there are no other monsters which fit that role, and the fact is, there are. Dire Rats, for instance, which are the same CR as goblins. There was no need for the gods to create goblins to get their clerics beyond level 1, so I question if they actually did so or if that's just what the Dark One says in order to get his high priests on-side for a plan that, when all's said and done, could lead to the destruction of the entire goblin race.
D&D is full of XP-fodder creatures, so why would a world based on D&D only have one creature type devoted to that purpose? The gods could have created goblins and dire rats for the same reason any game has multiple enemy types: variety.

[Morty]

I see no reason why Soon would trust Shojo's father with only part of the super secret lore, so my bet is no.

I do not count Kraagor being alive and having learned about it when falling into the rift as "the Ordred of the Scribble knowing about it", mind.

Soon doesn't strike me as concealing such information from his descendants on purpose, so yeah, it's unlikely. Though I suspect there's something we don't know about Kraagor's death.

[factotum]

There's several unfounded assumptions right here, starting with the fact that we don't know if can, as Fyraltari said

OK, so you haven't actually read the Scribbles, then? Strip #274, panel 3: "Twenty-seven minutes after it revealed its existence, the Snarl had undone creation", with a picture of a very destroyed planet. So, if the Scribbles are all true but just missing information as you say, we know the Snarl can destroy a planet. I find it hard to believe that it is also somehow unaware of a planet it's sharing its prison with--it was perfectly able to see the original planet (that it destroyed, see strip I mentioned above), and it's also able to see holes in its prison and reach out through them.

[Morty]

OK, so you haven't actually read the Scribbles, then? Strip #274, panel 3:

...kindly refrain from claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. :smallannoyed:


"Twenty-seven minutes after it revealed its existence, the Snarl had undone creation", with a picture of a very destroyed planet. So, if the Scribbles are all true but just missing information as you say, we know the Snarl can destroy a planet. I find it hard to believe that it is also somehow unaware of a planet it's sharing its prison with--it was perfectly able to see the original planet (that it destroyed, see strip I mentioned above), and it's also able to see holes in its prison and reach out through them.

Again, we know it did destroy the first world and countless worlds after that one, as Thor told us. Why hasn't it destroyed the one in the rift? We don't know, just like we don't know how or why it's there to begin with. Thor and Odin don't know either. You might find it "hard to believe", but that's just personal incredulity, not proof. What we know is that the Snarl has been destroying world after world for millions of years, but that there's a planet visible in the rift that the gods don't know about. The rest is speculation, but nothing said in the scribbles is actually contradicted.

[hroþila]

My personal interpretation is that Shojo's account necessarily conflated different events because the Sapphire Guard lacked a key piece of information: the existence of more worlds between the original one and the current one. So they knew that the Snarl destroyed worlds, but they thought only one such world had existed, so the obvious assumption was that the Snarl destroyed the original world. That's what the crayons showed. In reality, the Snarl would have destroyed every world except for the very first one, the four-quiddity one.

[Fyraltari]

Why would the gods believe the Snarl had destroyed it in that case?

[hroþila]

Why would the gods believe the Snarl had destroyed it in that case?
Good question. Perhaps they just assumed, because they had seen the Snarl destroy every subsequent world when they checked. But it is quite possible that the Snarl destroyed (the) world(s) and then rebuilt it/them without anyone knowing.

In either case, what the crayons showed would still be accurate in itself.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Well, isn't the biggest problem with Thor's plan the fact that they talked about it on panel? Elan would tell you that discussed plans never work as intended. :)They didn't tells us what Thor is willing to offer. I see three was this can go down:

1) Obvious stuff the giant thought would be boring to include
2) There will be a dramatic moment where Durkon says something like "we offer you a new continent"
3) They actually didn't discuss it. Redcloak: "What does Thor offer?" Durkon: "Ya, know: I forgot to ask. Sorry, this diplomacy thing be terribly cross class for me."

[Dion]

They didn't tells us what Thor is willing to offer. I see three was this can go down:

4) You don’t have to cooperate. We offer nothing if you do. On an unrelated note, unless these gates are sealed in the next 5 minutes, we’re going to destroy the world and you’re going to die.

[Fyraltari]

Good question. Perhaps they just assumed, because they had seen the Snarl destroy every subsequent world when they checked.
That doesn't make sense, they wouldn't have built more worlds if they had not thought the first one was gone. Also I'm not sure how likely they are not to notice an entire freaking planet when building thier prison.

But it is quite possible that the Snarl destroyed (the) world(s) and then rebuilt it/them without anyone knowing.
Very possible.

4) You don’t have to cooperate. We offer nothing if you do. On an unrelated note, unless these gates are sealed in the next 5 minutes, we’re going to destroy the world and you’re going to die.

Redcloak's totally game for that, though. And so is the Dark One.

[Chronos]

Why does everyone treat Thor's plan and the Dark One's plan as separate? Thor's plan isn't an alternative to TDO's; it's its culmination. TDO wants to gain control of the Gates so he'll have enough power to negotiate a better deal for goblins. Thor's plan starts from the premise that TDO already has enough power to ensure a strong negotiating position.

As for the Snarl, I think the simplest explanation (though not necessarily correct, because there are plenty of other explanations) is that it was a mindless thing of pure destruction as of when the gods last had a good look at it (something they're hesitant to do again), but that in the countless æons since then, it's changed, and is now capable of creation, or at least of refraining from destruction.

[Jasdoif]

Why does everyone treat Thor's plan and the Dark One's plan as separate?Mostly, because they're separate. The Dark One preventing an imminent release of the Snarl directly on the gods is going to garner better concessions than the Dark One preventing an escape of the Snarl that the gods have seen legions of times; and actually sealing the rifts means there is no longer an imminent release of the Snarl for the Dark One to prevent.

[Throknor]

Mostly, because they're separate. The Dark One preventing an imminent release of the Snarl directly on the gods is going to garner better concessions than the Dark One preventing an escape of the Snarl that the gods have seen legions of times; and actually sealing the rifts means there is no longer an imminent release of the Snarl for the Dark One to prevent.

Does the Dark One know the multitude of worlds that have gone before and that the gods are literally five seconds away from having a vote in favor of destroying the current one? The strength of his bargaining position is greatly reduced merely by the fact that the gods have time during "the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)" to destroy the world from under him. Once he learns and believes that then bargaining to help seal the rifts will become his best option. Not just for his goblins but for his actual existence.

[Jasdoif]

Does the Dark One know the multitude of worlds that have gone before and that the gods are literally five seconds away from having a vote in favor of destroying the current one? The strength of his bargaining position is greatly reduced merely by the fact that the gods have time during "the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)" to destroy the world from under him. Once he learns and believes that then bargaining to help seal the rifts will become his best option. Not just for his goblins but for his actual existence.Since we're talking about it from the perspective of the Dark One now....It might. Or it might not.

No, seriously. If the Dark One knows/learns that he's unlikely to survive the inter-Snarl-um transition between worlds; he may come to the realization that the gods will still have the option to destroy the world, and him with it, after he relinquishes his ability to kill them with the Snarl. What will he do if the gods renege?

If he doesn't know/learn that, he might think he'll be better off with a hand in creating the next world than he would with whatever he could get in this one. (Come to think of it, Redcloak could possibly make that decision himself, and try to destroy the last Gate)


And, honestly, with the Dark One's zero "on-panel" appearances and the tenor of his limited (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) interactions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html); I'm not entirely convinced he should be assumed to be a "rational" actor in all of this. He was killed when trying to get concessions from established leaders, after all; he may not be the trusting/forgiving sort now. And if the short-term goal of the Plan is "be able to threaten the gods", it looks a lot less convoluted...whether the long-term goal is "get concessions from the gods that I can trust them to keep" or "I'll die and take some of them with me".

[CriticalFailure]

(Come to think of it, Redcloak could possibly make that decision himself, and try to destroy the last Gate)




imo it's pretty likely that something will happen to expose Redcloak's dishonesty to Xykon and Redcloak will try to destroy the gate as a last ditch effort to fulfill the plan.

[factotum]

No, seriously. If the Dark One knows/learns that he's unlikely to survive the inter-Snarl-um transition between worlds; he may come to the realization that the gods will still have the option to destroy the world, and him with it, after he relinquishes his ability to kill them with the Snarl. What will he do if the gods renege?


Where is he going to learn that from that he'd consider a trustworthy source, though? He appears entirely distrusting of the other Gods, even the Evil ones (hence Loki not being able to speak to him anymore).

[Mike Havran]

Where is he going to learn that from that he'd consider a trustworthy source, though? He appears entirely distrusting of the other Gods, even the Evil ones (hence Loki not being able to speak to him anymore).He might have found the cemetery of Worlds on Astral Plane; the barrier is supposed to ward off creatures, not gods. Unlikely, but possible.

[Riftwolf]

He might have found the cemetery of Worlds on Astral Plane; the barrier is supposed to ward off creatures, not gods. Unlikely, but possible.

Why would he even be looking for it? Also, Thor doesn't specify the barrier keeps only mortals out, he says 'anyone'.
But yes, it's possible to find an invisible pocket dimension in an infinite plane that no-one's told you about. I think its one of the Epic Search checks.

[Jasdoif]

Where is he going to learn that from that he'd consider a trustworthy source, though? He appears entirely distrusting of the other Gods, even the Evil ones (hence Loki not being able to speak to him anymore).If he spontaneously learned about the god's past decisions around creating the goblins after ascending, as Redcloak says, then I have no idea what he might know about his own deific condition.

[Morty]

Everything we know about the Dark One comes from other people, who are either utterly loyal to him or not particularly trustful of him - either way, their perspective is skewed or incomplete. There's not much ground to speculate what he might now and how or what he might do.

[Fyraltari]

Everything we know about the Dark One comes from other people, who are either utterly loyal to him or not particularly trustful of him - either way, their perspective is skewed or incomplete. There's not much ground to speculate what he might now and how or what he might do.

Well we do know that everything Redcloak has done for the moment scans between "Ruefully acceptable" and "exactly what I want" in his eyes.

[The Pilgrim]

If he spontaneously learned about the god's past decisions around creating the goblins after ascending, as Redcloak says, then I have no idea what he might know about his own deific condition.

Yep. That's an interesting thing...
How did The Dark One learnt that the goblins were created as cannon fodder for adventurers? Did he leart it spontaneously when he became a God, or did some other Evil God tell him? If it's the latter, why any of the Evil Gods would want to tell The Dark One about it?

- "Look, guys. Another Evil God competitor"
- "What if we tell him we designed Goblins to suck on purpose, so he speeds up the destruction of this World, and he dies of starvation in the interim period?"
- "Looks like a cool plan for me"

[thekingofb]

If the Dark One ascended without any help, couldn't he now help others ascend into his own pantheon?

[Fyraltari]

If the Dark One ascended without any help, couldn't he now help others ascend into his own pantheon?

Possibly. However, while the mechanics are not known yet, it seems safe to assume that "sponsoring" an apotheosis requires a great deal of power and the Dark One may not even have enough for his own survival according to Thor.

[The MunchKING]

If the Dark One ascended without any help, couldn't he now help others ascend into his own pantheon?

The trick is does he have enough power-reserves to do so without slaughtering another continent's worth of sentient beings. And wouldn't that DECREASE the new Pantheon's chances of survival, as they are both trying to draw from the same reserves, and using the same worship as their base?

[thekingofb]

It seems like with the goblins already under his belt, if he doesn't find some way to expand, he is going to be screwed anyway. Then again, the goblins are supposed to be weak and numerous, right? How are the northern pantheon supported mostly by the dwarves, who seem to be fewer in number, but TDO is weak, despite having hordes?

[Peelee]

It seems like with the goblins already under his belt, if he doesn't find some way to expand, he is going to be screwed anyway. Then again, the goblins are supposed to be weak and numerous, right? How are the northern pantheon supported mostly by the dwarves, who seem to be fewer in number, but TDO is weak, despite having hordes?

The Northern Pantheon isn't supported mostly by the dwarves. We don't even know if Thor is supported mostly by the dwarves. All the Northerners support the Northern pantheon, and the dwarves just really like Thor. That's not to say that there aren't huge swaths of other worshippers for the Northern gods.

For a (not very good, but good enough) analogy - imagine my family loves Costco and raves about it to everyone. You wouldn't wonder why the Birmingham Costco can exist on just us, because there are a lot of other Costco members around here that you just haven't heard from. And just because you know how much we spend at Costco doesn't mean we're the biggest spenders.

[thekingofb]

The Northern Pantheon isn't supported mostly by the dwarves. We don't even know if Thor is supported mostly by the dwarves. All the Northerners support the Northern pantheon, and the dwarves just really like Thor. That's not to say that there aren't huge swaths of other worshippers for the Northern gods.

For a (not very good, but good enough) analogy - imagine my family loves Costco and raves about it to everyone. You wouldn't wonder why the Birmingham Costco can exist on just us, because there are a lot of other Costco members around here that you just haven't heard from. And just because you know how much we spend at Costco doesn't mean we're the biggest spenders.

True, but it doesn't explain how the single god of a race that is always displayed as being numerous is having trouble when there are regions supporting whole pantheons. In the battle for Azure City, the goblin hordes look to outnumber the members of Azure City massively. Sure, goblins are weak, but if numbers and degree of devotion is all that matters, the goblins seem to be pretty devoted and highly numerous.

[Fyraltari]

Because The Northern Gods are still living on the reserves they've built up during the last world's existance and maybe even the one before (we know that since the last world's Northerners' belief is still affecting Odin) in addition to everything they got from the very beginning of this one. The Dark One has only had a few centuries and according to the Giant his original ascension left him with no power at all.

It's basically the difference between fasting for a month when you've been well fed your entire life and fasting for a month when you already are severly underfed and only have had normal nutrition for the last three days.

[The Pilgrim]

The trick is does he have enough power-reserves to do so without slaughtering another continent's worth of sentient beings. And wouldn't that DECREASE the new Pantheon's chances of survival, as they are both trying to draw from the same reserves, and using the same worship as their base?

Basically this. Why would be The Dark One interested in ascending another Deity he will have to share his power base with?

The Western Pantheon ascended the Elven deities probably because those figures were already gathering a good amount of worship and belief from the Elves. The main Pantheons have a third of the World each from themselves, and they benefit from having multiple deities appealing to multiple demographic types, both racial and alignment-wise. It makes sense for them to have specific deities targeting specific races, and for good, neutral and evil aligned people.

The Dark One got one single racial type that mostly shares an evil alignment and a warlike attitude. And those goblins who aren't evil are mostly neutral, which also fits TDO Neutral-leaning Evil stance (his demiplane seems to be in Acheron, a LN-LE place).

The best deal for TDO would be to exalt a deity from another disfranchised monster race. However, all other monster races seem to have patron deities that cares for them. During the Godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), we saw that some of the High Priests were orcs, lizardfolk, kobolds, beastmen, and even ratfolk. The goblinoids seem to be the only ones totally repudiated by the main pantheons. Perhaps the reason for that is precisely because they chose to worship their own God instead of the regular ones.

[factotum]

True, but it doesn't explain how the single god of a race that is always displayed as being numerous is having trouble when there are regions supporting whole pantheons. In the battle for Azure City, the goblin hordes look to outnumber the members of Azure City massively.

We know the exact numbers from the strip. There were eighty thousand hobgoblins attacking Azure City, and around thirty thousand defenders. The critical difference, though, is that hobgoblin society being what it is, those eighty thousand were pretty much every male hobgoblin of fighting age, with just the women, children and old folk left at home, whereas there were hundreds of thousands of Azure City residents who were not involved in the fighting. So, in terms of actual numbers of worshippers, Azure City alone had several times as many worshippers of the Twelve Gods as the hobgoblin city had for the Dark One. This makes sense, if you think about it--the goblinoid races are forced into the poor places of the world that none of the "main" races want, and those places are not going to support as large a population.

Then there's the time thing. It's never made clear just how long ago it was that the Dark One became a god, but by definition it can't have been right back at the beginning of the current world's existence, because we know it was during the current world that he arose. The worshippers of the other pantheons, though, *have* been contributing since the very beginning of the world, so there's a lot more faith built up over time there.

[deuterio12]

We know the exact numbers from the strip. There were eighty thousand hobgoblins attacking Azure City, and around thirty thousand defenders. The critical difference, though, is that hobgoblin society being what it is, those eighty thousand were pretty much every male hobgoblin of fighting age, with just the women, children and old folk left at home, whereas there were hundreds of thousands of Azure City residents who were not involved in the fighting. So, in terms of actual numbers of worshippers, Azure City alone had several times as many worshippers of the Twelve Gods as the hobgoblin city had for the Dark One. This makes sense, if you think about it--the goblinoid races are forced into the poor places of the world that none of the "main" races want, and those places are not going to support as large a population.

Considering how disciplined and well equipped the hob soldiers were, it's impossible that it was their whole male fit adult population because that's just not sustainable. Even if every hob adult woman was working the fields and crafting and everything else needed to keep society going, you can't sustain a society where 50% of fit adults are well equipped soldiers drilling all the time.



Then there's the time thing. It's never made clear just how long ago it was that the Dark One became a god, but by definition it can't have been right back at the beginning of the current world's existence, because we know it was during the current world that he arose. The worshippers of the other pantheons, though, *have* been contributing since the very beginning of the world, so there's a lot more faith built up over time there.

Then Hel would be screwed big time with her gambit because even if she cashed in every dwarf currently alive, the other gods would've cashed in multiple generations of dwarves.

[Fyraltari]

Then Hel would be screwed big time with her gambit because even if she cashed in every dwarf currently alive, the other gods would've cashed in multiple generations of dwarves.

Hel would get a massive Dedication boost, while the others are relying on soul power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). Different kind of energy for different uses.

EDIT: Also
Hobgoblins are very willing to conscript any and all able-bodied male of Gorge Ravine to fight Azurites, seeing as our two lovable hobs are a random hunter and a random trench digger.

[deuterio12]

Hel would get a massive Dedication boost, while the others are relying on soul power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). Different kind of energy for different uses.


That changes nothing, the other gods would've still cashed in multiple generations of dedication from the dwarves and the other races while Hel would cash in a single generation of dedication from a single race.



Hobgoblins are very willing to conscript any and all able-bodied male of Gorge Ravine to fight Azurites, seeing as our two lovable hobs are a random hunter and a random trench digger.

Conspricts can't materialize swords out of thin air nor march and fight in disciplined formations. Most of the hob army clearly were pretty well trained, thus couldn't be conspricts.

[Fyraltari]

That changes nothing, the other gods would've still cashed in multiple generations of dedication from the dwarves and the other races while Hel would cash in a single generation of dedication from a single race.
I'm guessing they already used that dedication to power their or that it cannot be be stored long-term. Again different kind of energy have different uses.




Conspricts can't materialize swords out of thin air nor march and fight in disciplined formations. Most of the hob army clearly were pretty well trained, thus couldn't be conspricts.

The hobgoblins are a highly mitlitarized society (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html), it's likely all of them receive military training when they are young regardless of their future job.

[The Pilgrim]

According to Redcloak, they mobilized 90% of the Hobgoblin population. The Giant said he chose to draw all hobgoblins the same, not diferentiating males and felames like in the Azurite Army, to help the reader's identification with the latter rather than the former.

So, it was everyone out there except the childs and elderly. Since goblins have very short lifespans, I suppose it takes few time for them to grow up, and they don't remain old much time either, meaning the percentage of children and elderly in their society is a lot smaller than in PC races.

Most of the azurite population didn't fight the battle. Kubota and a lot other nobles refused to commit their troops to it. And most of their male population were non-combatants. I think Azure City was stated to be about 500.000 pop, and only 30.000 fought in the battle. Not counting inhabitants from other minor cities of the region, or the peasant population in the countryside (which, by medieval standards, would far surpass the inhabitants of the city areas). While most of the hobgoblin pop did, menaning the whole hob pop was about 100.000. All in all, it's not unreasonable to assume that the azurite population outnumbered the hobgloblin one by at least 10 to 1. And that's just one of the nations in the southern continent. The 12 Gods have several others.


Considering how disciplined and well equipped the hob soldiers were, it's impossible that it was their whole male fit adult population because that's just not sustainable. Even if every hob adult woman was working the fields and crafting and everything else needed to keep society going, you can't sustain a society where 50% of fit adults are well equipped soldiers drilling all the time.

They aren't drilling all the time. Hobgoblins are good soldiers by instinct. They don't need to be taught how to march in formation or to mantain their position under enemy fire. They come with the knowlede at birth.

Also, you don't need to be drilling all the time to remain a disciplined trooper. You only need to practice like one day a week, tops. Humans and other races don't like to drill, they prefer to invest their day off in other things. While hobgoblins like it, it's like they Sunday BBQ.

This also explains why hobgoblin society excels at warfare and... not in anything else.

In a pitch, anyway, the question of "how can hobgoblin society manage to sustain itself with such a high percent of combatants" boils down to the same category as "how can dragons flight with all that weight and such small wings". Fantasy world is Fantasy.

[Jasdoif]

According to Redcloak, they mobilized 90% of the Hobgoblin population. The Giant said he chose to draw all hobgoblins the same, not diferentiating males and felames like in the Azurite Army, to help the reader's identification with the latter rather than the former.

So, it was everyone out there except the childs and elderly. Since goblins have very short lifespans, I suppose it takes few time for them to grow up, and they don't remain old much time either, meaning the percentage of children and elderly in their society is a lot smaller than the ones in PC races.

Most of the azurite population didn't fight the battle. Kubota and a lot other nobles refused to commit their troops to it. And most of their male population were non-combatants. I think Azure City was stated to be about 500.000 pop, and only 30.000 fought in the battle. Not counting inhabitants from other minor cities of the region, or the peasant population in the countryside (which, by medieval standards, would far surpass the inhabitants of the city areas). While most of the hobgoblin pop did, menaning the whole hob pop was about 100.000. All in all, it's not unreasonable to assume that the azurite population outnumbered the hobgloblin one by at least 10 to 1. And that's just one of the nations in the southern continent. The 12 Gods have several others.It's strip 320a where Redcloak says it'd never occurred to the hobgoblin's previous Supreme Leaders to mobilize 90% of their population before. (Which Xykon said was probably because of their sense of self-preservation, something he'll take care of soon enough....)

The travel guide excerpt at the back puts the Azure City nation's population at 530,000; half of which live within the city itself.

[hroþila]

Also, I think the number of Azurite soldiers at the battle was stated to be around 9,000-10,000, with the hobgoblins and undead being around 30,000.

[factotum]

Also, I think the number of Azurite soldiers at the battle was stated to be around 9,000-10,000, with the hobgoblins and undead being around 30,000.

I went back to check because those numbers sounded low, but you're right:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html

Note they say that the hobgoblin army has "at least" 30,000, so it could have been more, while there were "no more than" 9000 Azure City soldiers available, so could have been a bit less. Now I just need to figure out where the 80,000 number I quoted earlier came from!

[Jasdoif]

...with the hobgoblins and undead being around 30,000.While true, I suspect most of the undead were hobgoblins pre-mortem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html).

[Peelee]

While true, I suspect most of the undead were hobgoblins pre-mortem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html).

It's a shame that they lose their ears on undeath.

[The Pilgrim]

So, turns out my estimation of the Azurite pop outnumbering the Hobgoblin one by 10 to 1 was short. If the estimated population of the Azurite nation is 530.000 and a rough estimation of the Hobgoblin population is 34000, the followers of the Southern Gods outnumber the followers of the Dark One by 15 to 1, just with one of the nations of the southern continent. This strip shows four (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) others, and those are just the ones friendly to Azure City. Add the Realm of the Dragon, for example.

So, even though the Twelve Gods have to parcel the worship and dedication of their followers by the Twelve of them, each one is still getting a minimum average of about six times the worship and dedications the Dark One gets, and like 70 times the Belief, since every worshipper of the Southern Pantheon Believes in all the 12 Gods.

[Fyraltari]

That assumes that the hobgoblin of Ravine Gorge (the name of the city/fortress Team Evil took over) were the only goblinoids in the South. This strikes me as extremely unlikely.

[137beth]

This is what I've been thinking lol Fortunately, the plan described was still pretty vague ("Well need to seal things with purple energy. Get Redcloak to help. We'll handle the rest when you let me know he's on board") so I don't think it's doomed to failure or anything. But it's definitely not going to be as simple as Thor tried to make it sound. Something is gonna come up. Probably several somethings.

My hunch is that it's gonna be something with the planet in the rift. We've been reminded of it relatively recently (can't remember the specific number), so there's no way that's gonna go unused. And then also, of course, all the problems involved with getting Redcloak to sit down and listen.

And they need to get Redcloak to sit down and listen without Xykon near by, since any information which could convince Redcloak to help would also shatter any illusion Xykon might have that The Plan could benefit him

[Draconi Redfir]

Conspricts can't materialize swords out of thin air nor march and fight in disciplined formations. Most of the hob army clearly were pretty well trained, thus couldn't be conspricts.

Most likely that during peacetime, most hobgoblin males have non war-based jobs, such as farmers, trench-diggers, and brick-layers. However like the spartains, they all get some degree of military training growing up. So while they may get paid to build walls, they still have swords and know how to march and fight in disciplined formations.

i wouldn't be surprised if a good half of their schooling was dedicated to military training, while their peacetime professions were only learned either after becoming adults, or by helping parents or other family perform those same tasks as children outside of school.

[Morty]

I'm really not sure what crunching the exact numbers of hobgoblins and Azurites is supposed to accomplish, particularly given the Giant's self-admitted tendency to eyeball this kind of thing.

[The Pilgrim]

I'm really not sure what crunching the exact numbers of hobgoblins and Azurites is supposed to accomplish, particularly given the Giant's self-admitted tendency to eyeball this kind of thing.

Accomplishes to point that...


True, but it doesn't explain how the single god of a race that is always displayed as being numerous is having trouble when there are regions supporting whole pantheons. In the battle for Azure City, the goblin hordes look to outnumber the members of Azure City massively. Sure, goblins are weak, but if numbers and degree of devotion is all that matters, the goblins seem to be pretty devoted and highly numerous.

... the goblinoids are not that numerous.

[Riftwolf]

The Dark One has only been a God a few hundred years, while the other Pantheons have been around for billions of planet-lifetimes. He might get a big burst of goblin souls, but because he's not built up enough worship and belief, he'll still be vulnerable.
While Dedication might be (number of goblins=God points), belief might be (goblins*time=God points) and Souls might be (goblins*time-Outer Plane upkeep=God points).
In short, TDO might be bossing the game, but he's not been playing it long enough. You don't get 50,000 playing Double Dragon for ten seconds.

[The Pilgrim]

TDO isn't bossing the Game. If he were, then he wouldn't be enacting a Plan to wreck the Game. You don't shake the board when you are winning.

[Draconi Redfir]

it might be more akin to every god having seven cards, while the dark one only has two. And he's trying to rearrange the game so that either he also has seven cards, or everyone has five cards.

Problem is he doesn't realize that he has the one card in the deck that all the other gods need in order to win the game, and he's too busy grumbling about his lack of cards to listen to the others.

granted this analogy kind of implies he'd be helping Thor win over Loki or something... Assume it's a timed game, where either someone wins and they all go home, or nobody wins and every player gets eaten alive or somethin, idk :P

[ijuinkun]

As for the Snarl, I think the simplest explanation (though not necessarily correct, because there are plenty of other explanations) is that it was a mindless thing of pure destruction as of when the gods last had a good look at it (something they're hesitant to do again), but that in the countless æons since then, it's changed, and is now capable of creation, or at least of refraining from destruction.

Consider also that each world's lifespan is a little longer than the one before, as the Gods grow more skilled at reinforcing it against the Snarl. Also, the current world has gotten an extra sixty years or so from the Gates holding the fissures together. Perhaps the Snarl has been trying to build this world-within-the-world for a number of cycles now, but only due to the longer survival of the current world has it gotten so close to completion now. The earlier attempts, having been incomplete when the Snarl breaks out, were unraveled along with those cycles' Prime Material Worlds, and so the Gods never noticed them.

[Dion]

Like, what if the snarl represents open source software, so like the world in the snarl is the open source world, and anyone can just use it to make their own world?

So TDO and all the goblins (or orcs, or firbolgs, or whatever) can just go live on the open source world, and Durkon and Roy can continue to live on The Oracle world.

[Draconi Redfir]

Like, what if the snarl represents open source software, so like the world in the snarl is the open source world, and anyone can just use it to make their own world?

So TDO and all the goblins (or orcs, or firbolgs, or whatever) can just go live on the open source world, and Durkon and Roy can continue to live on The Oracle world.

if that's the case, i certainly hope it's not made abundantly clear like that. would kinda break my immersion on the whole situation of the big bad snarl threat TBH.

[Jasdoif]

Like, what if the snarl represents open source software, so like the world in the snarl is the open source world, and anyone can just use it to make their own world?

So TDO and all the goblins (or orcs, or firbolgs, or whatever) can just go live on the open source world, and Durkon and Roy can continue to live on The Oracle world.So would you say you're looking forward to the sequel?

[Dion]

So would you say you're looking forward to the sequel?

The sequel where Durkon and Elan fight over Windows vs Mac, while all the goblins use Linux?

Yes, that sounds like a lovely comic.

[Peelee]

The sequel where Durkon and Elan fight over Windows vs Mac, while all the goblins use Linux?

Yes, that sounds like a lovely comic.

Mac would lose. Country Mac, however, would win.

[Jasdoif]

The sequel where Durkon and Elan fight over Windows vs Mac, while all the goblins use Linux?

Yes, that sounds like a lovely comic.I think the goblins undergoing a schism between Linux and Hurd would make a better story, honestly...but I do appreciate the response to my sequel query.

[Riftwolf]

I think the goblins undergoing a schism between Linux and Hurd would make a better story, honestly...but I do appreciate the response to my sequel query.

Is this story really a sequel, or an SQL?

[Jasdoif]

Is this story really a sequel, or an SQL?If the story could result from a SQL query made against the Oracle world, would that count? Or would that just amount to an unknown value, in the aggregate?

[Manga Shoggoth]

If the story could result from a SQL query made against the Oracle world, would that count? Or would that just amount to an unknown value, in the aggregate?

Are you going to commit to one?

(Please note that any references to CoD are strictly dated...)

(YES!!! DBA Puns!!!!!!!!!)

[The Pilgrim]

I feel like I should select to inner join this debate.

[Jasdoif]

Are you going to commit to one?No, I think we'd take a dim view of that transaction....It might even involve a trigger o_o So I'm gonna exercise some constraint.

[CriticalFailure]

I think the goblins undergoing a schism between Linux and Hurd would make a better story, honestly...but I do appreciate the response to my sequel query.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as goblins, is in fact, hobgoblins/goblins, or as I've recently taken to calling it, hobgoblins plus goblins.

[Jasdoif]

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as goblins, is in fact, hobgoblins/goblins, or as I've recently taken to calling it, hobgoblins plus goblins.Pretty sure I said "goblins" because I meant "goblins", actually; much like I'd have said "goblinoids" if I meant "goblinoids". Whether it cascades or not, the execution of the partition between goblinoids of the same schema makes the primary key, the dividing philosophies, more apparent at a cursory glance; and harder to misattribute to different collations between cultures, no matter how related they are.