Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

[Particle_Man]

My DM had a chargen system where you pick the class first, then assign 9d6 to roll one stat of your choice, then 8d6 for another, and so forth. Kinda reminds me of one of the variant chargen methods from 1st edition AD&D, actually (detailed in its Unearthed Arcana).

Anyhow, for Pathfinder 1e, I picked a dwarf paladin (stonelord archetype) and went for 9d6 str, 8d6 con, 7d6 wis, 6d6 dex, 5d6 chr, 4d6 int.

I ended up with str 12, con 16 (becomes 18), 18 wis (becomes 20), 12 dex, 12 chr (becomes 10) and 17 int.

So a kind of studious intellectual dwarf, but when you get the call from Torag, then you answer! I stand ready in banded mail and shield and wielding my dwarven war axe and the occasional chakram!

The closest I can think of is Sir Bedivere as portrayed by Terry Jones in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. But maybe my character is destined to found a school for Stonelords one day. If he survives, that is. For skills I went for acrobatics (hey dwarves can do wonderful things in heavy armor!), perception, ride, know (religion) and linguistics.

I wonder what the odds are of getting a 12 or less on 9d6, keep the top 3. :smallsmile:

I probably should multi-class as a cleric ASAP but I think the character would be stubborn enough to stick it out as a single-classed stonelord.

So anyone else end up with less-than-optimized stats and decided to go for it anyhow?

[Helluin]

Get some archetypes that trades out your Divine Grace and maybe even Smite Evil. With Cha 10 there’s literally no reason to bother.

Ideally I highly, HIGHLY recommend Tortured Crusader — background aside, it’s just PERFECT for your stats. Uses Wis for casting AND Lay on Hand. You get expanded skills that complement your high Int. Your Smite becomes Charisma-independent (flat +4 bonus). You can trade Lay on Hand uses into Smite (2 for 1, and because you have such good wisdom and that your Lay on Hand only works on yourself now, you will get plenty of Smites), and your Smite can have double the effect at high level!
If you use Tortured Crusader, make sure to take Unsanctioned Knowledge — you have such high Wis that you should have no problem reaping benefits from those additional spells known.

On top of your Smite from TC, you should consider Litany of Righteousness — it’s generally considered subpar after the nerf, but with your wisdom (meaning high DC & many spell slots), you might as well use it for a chance to boost your damage vastly if you have nothing better to do with your swift actions.

If you want your dwarf to be a more cheerful fellow, at least consider Empyreal Knight or some similar good archetypes that trade away Cha-dependent class features for useful ability. Normally I would not take EK but in your case it can also be a strong choice.

[Biggus]

I wonder what the odds are of getting a 12 or less on 9d6, keep the top 3. :smallsmile:


According to Anydice (https://anydice.com/), 3.12% for a 12 exactly and 5.47% for a 12 or less. Higher than I expected...

[Particle_Man]

So about the chance of me rolling a natural 1. Figures. 😼

[RatElemental]

This is why I don't really like rolled stats. You either end up with physical gods or locked into a "making the best of it" situation. Doubly so when you don't even get to assign your rolled stats at will.

[Particle_Man]

Oh and I had already prepicked the stonelord archetype and so don’t mind the low chr. At least I am strong enough to wear armor and being slowed by armor isn’t a thing for dwarves, who are slow anyhow. And Torag is the god of strategy. Maybe I am destined to be the Miles Vorkosigan of dwarven kind! 😺

[legomaster00156]

So about the chance of me rolling a natural 1. Figures. 😼

You are the first person I know to somehow roll a natural one on character creation.

[Rynjin]

You are the first person I know to somehow roll a natural one on character creation.

It's usually pretty hard to do since the GM uses some reasonable character creation method. "Choose class, then roll stats" is one of the worst charop methods I've ever heard of.

@OP: Take an archetype that gives you Channel early or dip Cleric, then take Guided Hand (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/guided-hand/). This will at least let you hit more than once in a blue moon once you painstakingly crawl your way to level 3. Sadly Torag isn't a deity with a ranged favored weapon.

[zlefin]

ignoring the rather weak int/wis it's still a respectable 16 point buy. admittedly many people aim higher powered for their campaigns, but a 16 point buy is fine and tough enough imho.

[ShurikVch]

How about the 3.5 stuff?
Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium allow to use your Wis for divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead

[Rynjin]

ignoring the rather weak int/wis it's still a respectable 16 point buy. admittedly many people aim higher powered for their campaigns, but a 16 point buy is fine and tough enough imho.

Point buy is meaningless in this scenario, since every single one of his primary stats (Str, Dex, Cha) except Con is tanked. I think people too often make the mistake of evaluating PB in a vacuum rather than in practice.

You can (and I have done for some games) just let players take an 18 in every single stat and it doesn't actually change very much for most characters. Like, if someone is playing a Barbarian, for example, the 18 Str and Con is cool (but doable or close to doable otherwise) and the 18 Dex is a cherry over the 14 they'd likely otherwise have...but the 18 Int/Wis/Cha? Largely meaningless in terms of raising the Barbarian's overall power. Nice to have those extra skill points and be able to make use of Cha based skills and have that slight boost to Will saves (which a Barbarian does not in the slightest actually NEED in most scenarios) but that's all they are: nice to have, not a real power boost.

The OP's spread is full of "nice to have" stats (Con, Wis, Int) but severely lacking in Paladin's "needed for power" stats (Str or Dex and Cha). He's sidestepped the Cha deficiency with an archetype that removes most of the Cha dependent abilities (and replaces it with abilities that are far weaker in most scenarios, but at least function with a 10 Cha) but that still leaves him as a combat class with significantly low combat stats, on paper "16 PB" or no.

[zlefin]

Point buy is meaningless in this scenario, since every single one of his primary stats (Str, Dex, Cha) except Con is tanked. I think people too often make the mistake of evaluating PB in a vacuum rather than in practice.

You can (and I have done for some games) just let players take an 18 in every single stat and it doesn't actually change very much for most characters. Like, if someone is playing a Barbarian, for example, the 18 Str and Con is cool (but doable or close to doable otherwise) and the 18 Dex is a cherry over the 14 they'd likely otherwise have...but the 18 Int/Wis/Cha? Largely meaningless in terms of raising the Barbarian's overall power. Nice to have those extra skill points and be able to make use of Cha based skills and have that slight boost to Will saves (which a Barbarian does not in the slightest actually NEED in most scenarios) but that's all they are: nice to have, not a real power boost.

The OP's spread is full of "nice to have" stats (Con, Wis, Int) but severely lacking in Paladin's "needed for power" stats (Str or Dex and Cha). He's sidestepped the Cha deficiency with an archetype that removes most of the Cha dependent abilities (and replaces it with abilities that are far weaker in most scenarios, but at least function with a 10 Cha) but that still leaves him as a combat class with significantly low combat stats, on paper "16 PB" or no.

well, I disagree. and I am evaluating in practice. I think that array is perfectly playable. 16pb in the combat stats is enough to get by. People are just over-used to playing with high-end stats. and the 16 pb is not meaningless; it's still a useful and worthwhile metric.

[Rynjin]

well, I disagree. and I am evaluating in practice. I think that array is perfectly playable. 16pb in the combat stats is enough to get by. People are just over-used to playing with high-end stats. and the 16 pb is not meaningless; it's still a useful and worthwhile metric.

Show me the 16 PB in combat stats for a Paladin.

Are you misreading the array?

He has 12 Str, 12 Dex, and 10 Cha.

[Psychoalpha]

well, I disagree. and I am evaluating in practice. I think that array is perfectly playable. 16pb in the combat stats is enough to get by. People are just over-used to playing with high-end stats. and the 16 pb is not meaningless; it's still a useful and worthwhile metric.

Looking at a Paladin with Str 12, Cha 10, and saying "People are just over-used to playing with high-end stats." is like looking at someone playing console games with their feet and saying "People are just over-used to playing with their hands."

Toe dexterity is still a useful and worthwhile metric, I guess.

[zlefin]

Show me the 16 PB in combat stats for a Paladin.

Are you misreading the array?

He has 12 Str, 12 Dex, and 10 Cha.

I'm counting con as a combat relevant stat, which it is.
Also, the Cha is 12 pre-racials, which is the pertinent value for point buy purposes.

[Rynjin]

I'm counting con as a combat relevant stat, which it is.

No, it's not. You can't accomplish anything with Con unless you're a (pre-errata) Scarred Witch Doctor or a Kineticist. It is a stat that causes you to die more slowly as you flail pointlessly at your enemies.

This is what I mean about context being key. You cannot truly believe that just having a bunch of HP and nothing else is a valid contributor to a combat.

[Psyren]

How about the 3.5 stuff?
Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium allow to use your Wis for divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, and turn undead

This. Buy all the pizza necessary to make this happen.

[Bartmanhomer]

It's possible and can be done with a Strength 12 Paladin. :smile:

[Rynjin]

This. Buy all the pizza necessary to make this happen.

I think OP is pretty locked into Stonelord for flavor; Stonelord doesn't get Smite, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, or really ANY of the base Paladin abilities (it even replaces most of the Auras IIRC).

So getting Wis to a bunch of abilities he doesn't have isn't a huge help. =)

[Particle_Man]

On the upside, I am less likely to be charmed to attack my friends (before getting the aura of resolve) and my perception is nice.

[zlefin]

No, it's not. You can't accomplish anything with Con unless you're a (pre-errata) Scarred Witch Doctor or a Kineticist. It is a stat that causes you to die more slowly as you flail pointlessly at your enemies.

This is what I mean about context being key. You cannot truly believe that just having a bunch of HP and nothing else is a valid contributor to a combat.

again, I disagree. there's nothing wrong with people disagreeing about these things. and having stats a bit on the low side isn't the same as doing absolutely nothing relevant other than being a block of hp. that's you being unreasonably hyperbolic.

[ShurikVch]

No, it's not. You can't accomplish anything with Con unless you're a (pre-errata) Scarred Witch Doctor or a Kineticist. It is a stat that causes you to die more slowly as you flail pointlessly at your enemies.

This is what I mean about context being key. You cannot truly believe that just having a bunch of HP and nothing else is a valid contributor to a combat.To be fair, Con is pretty important for meldshapers and non-Undead breath weapon users

[Particle_Man]

It is also handy for tanks, I imagine. Tanking either requires a lot of work on the player’s part or an understanding DM that plays monsters stupid enough to engage the tank rather than run past them to kill the squishier party members.

[Selion]

According to Anydice (https://anydice.com/), 3.12% for a 12 exactly and 5.47% for a 12 or less. Higher than I expected...

Uhm, you must have had some parameter off, because i haven't got the same results. I can actually do the calculation myself

EDIT: I skipped "keep the top three" line, the following calculation is wrong


p(9)=(1/6)^9=9.93 e-8
p(10)=9*(1/6)^9=8.93 e-7
p(11)=(9*8/2+9)*(1/6)^9=4.46 e-6
p(12)=(9*8*7/3*2+9*8/2 + 9*8/2 +9)*(1/6)^9=1.64 e-5

which are the same results of the software:

"output 1",31.500000000004224,5.123475382980105,9,54
#,%
9,0.00000992290301275
10,0.0000893061271148
11,0.000446530635574
12,0.0016372789971

so, you have an answer, dear OP, you have scored a 2 out of 100000 chance

[Rynjin]

again, I disagree. there's nothing wrong with people disagreeing about these things. and having stats a bit on the low side isn't the same as doing absolutely nothing relevant other than being a block of hp. that's you being unreasonably hyperbolic.

It's not hyperbole, it's an understanding of the system math. "Disagreeing" is fine for opinions, but I'm basing this on fact.

Take a quick look at Monster Creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation/) (keep in mind these values are often quite a bit lower than what monsters are actually packing, but they make a good benchmark).

A CR 1 enemy has 15 HP and 12 AC; that gives this Paladin a 45% chance to hit (he hits on a 10 with his +2 attack bonus) and his average damage with a longsword or warhammer is going to be around 5 (5.5 but you round down). Assuming warhammer (because he worships Torag) this gives him at level 1 an average DPR of around 2.84. This means on average it takes him 6 rounds to kill a CR 1 opponent. Combats are assumed to last 3-4 rounds in Pathfinder (even by the devs, yes), so it's taking him twice as long to kill his own opponent as anyone else.

Meanwhile, said enemy has a +2 attack bonus and deals an average damage of 7, vs this Paladin's 10+Con mod (4)+Favored Class (1) 15 HP. At 1st level his AC is likely to be 16, since I'm assuming he buys Scale Mail. So the enemy's DPR against him is going to be 30% to hit; 2.22 DPR or 7 rounds to kill.

So in this theoretical combat against an equal CR opponent, he manages to, through a grueling combat while everyone else is dealing with their own threats, stay one step ahead of his opponent, and ends the combat heavily wounded, requiring much healing from his allies.

But if you're not convinced, let's take a look at an actual enemy from the bestiary! And we'll even jack the CR down to 1/3: an Orc. The Orc has 13 AC, 6 HP (but really 18 HP), a +5 attack bonus, and an average damage of around 9. As a dwarf, OP gets a +1 to attack rolls against Orcs, jacking his bonus to +3!

This still gives him that 45% chance to hit, and thus the same DPR: 2.84, or 7 rounds to kill.

The Orc has a DPR of 4.68. Against OP's 15 HP this takes the Orc 4 rounds to kill (3.2, but as with all the others I round up for RTK; just worth noting that while the other DPR calcs were X.6 or higher, the chance of the orc killing him in 3 rounds instead is much higher).

In short, OP is a mother****ing Dwarf Paladin, of a deity who has a Paladin Code that says "Genocide orcs lol", but he can't win a 1v1 fight with a Common Orc.

Again, not opinion, having stats that are this low is a severe detriment to both the mechanical efficacy and even the actual FLAVOR of the character he is playing. They are not "little low". A 16 is "a little low". Even a 14 is "kinda low". A 12 is REALLY LOW.


It is also handy for tanks, I imagine. Tanking either requires a lot of work on the player’s part or an understanding DM that plays monsters stupid enough to engage the tank rather than run past them to kill the squishier party members.


Yeah, the issue is that there are no real "tanking" mechanics in Pathfinder. The closest that comes to that is Feats like Bodyguard/In Harm's Way and Archon Style...but A.) The former actually still requires an attack roll and B.) Just taking every hit for your allies with Archon Style/Justice simply isn't sustainable (especially without Lay on Hands), even ignoring that yeah, the GM can just have the enemies go around you.

[legomaster00156]

While your math is solid, calling an orc a CR 1/3 opponent is a difficult sell, whatever the bestiary claims.

[Rynjin]

While your math is solid, calling an orc a CR 1/3 opponent is a difficult sell, whatever the bestiary claims.

This is a common argument (and one I agree with in principle), but fact is the game still throws orcs at low level parties in published content all the time. I admit they're powerful for their CR, but it's impossible to account for every misstep in the CR system when making analyses like this.

I could have run the numbers for something like a Troglodyte or small Ice Elemental instead, but Orcs are an easy and common example to point out, and more likely to show up in numbers at 1st level than those.

[zlefin]

An even match vs an opponent of equal CR is exactly how it's supposed to be. So I'm not seeing a problem there. you demonstrated my own case for me actually.

and we all know orcs are OP and their listed CR is inaccurate; that some monsters are incorrectly CR'ed doesn't change the suitability of the averages.

It also remains the case that you were being hyperbolic, there's a big difference between "can't accomplish anything" and "are somewhat weaker".

[Rynjin]

An even match vs an opponent of equal CR is exactly how it's supposed to be. So I'm not seeing a problem there. you demonstrated my own case for me actually.

That's incorrect. A PC is supposed to OVER match an opponent of equal CR. Hence combats are supposed to last 3-4 rounds.

Taking twice as long to kill an opponent as the game expects you to is a clear deficiency which will only grow as the game goes on. He is constantly going to be 2-3 points behind the curve; more, actually, since the game actually accounts for attack/damage boosters when balancing encounters (CR 6 and higher enemies are balanced with at a minimum full BaB and a booster like Weapon Training taken into account; you can actually see this on the table I posted where Average Damage SPIKES at CR 6 comparatively and keeps a pretty large growth overall, since enemies are expected to die faster and so need to deal more damage in a shorter time). As the game goes on enemies will get stronger with the expectation that this Paladin will be able to Smite in tough combats...but he cannot, he's only getting a +1 attack/damage from his Stonelord equivalent (I forget the name).

Look at it in the overall context again. He's having a rough fight against a SINGLE creature of equal CR, a singular encounter brings him to near death, and could be swung over into ACTUAL death if things go a little wrong.

The general assumption is something like 4-5 combats per day, with as I recall 2 encounters of below CR, 2 encounters of equal CR, and 1 encounter of "hard" or harder (so CR +1-2 roughly). So in the average day he is doing okay at best in 2 encounters, struggling in 2, and in severe danger of death or being at best mostly dead weight in 1.

Low level parties simply do not have the resources to maintain a character that is eating so much damage unless they all specifically build around it, and he's not self-sustaining at all. A character like this is a drag on resources that the party may not even HAVE, because there was no way for anyone in the party to plan around this, since they all picked classes BEFORE rolling stats.

That's the part that makes me vicariously frustrated because this stat spread works for almost literally any other kind of character in the game. It'd make a great Cleric, or Wizard, or even a Monk (Zen Archer, yo, or some kind of Combat Maneuver specialist since you can actually get Wis to combat maneuvers), but is spectacularly unsuited for being a Paladin specifically, and is likely going to leave a big hole in a party comp that was probably expecting the Paladin is going to be the big beefy frontline damage dealer and may not have hedged their bets well enough on that.

[Selion]

That's incorrect. A PC is supposed to OVER match an opponent of equal CR. Hence combats are supposed to last 3-4 rounds.

Taking twice as long to kill an opponent as the game expects you to is a clear deficiency which will only grow as the game goes on. He is constantly going to be 2-3 points behind the curve; more, actually, since the game actually accounts for attack/damage boosters when balancing encounters (CR 6 and higher enemies are balanced with at a minimum full BaB and a booster like Weapon Training taken into account; you can actually see this on the table I posted where Average Damage SPIKES at CR 6 comparatively and keeps a pretty large growth overall, since enemies are expected to die faster and so need to deal more damage in a shorter time). As the game goes on enemies will get stronger with the expectation that this Paladin will be able to Smite in tough combats...but he cannot, he's only getting a +1 attack/damage from his Stonelord equivalent (I forget the name).

Look at it in the overall context again. He's having a rough fight against a SINGLE creature of equal CR, a singular encounter brings him to near death, and could be swung over into ACTUAL death if things go a little wrong.

The general assumption is something like 4-5 combats per day, with as I recall 2 encounters of below CR, 2 encounters of equal CR, and 1 encounter of "hard" or harder (so CR +1-2 roughly). So in the average day he is doing okay at best in 2 encounters, struggling in 2, and in severe danger of death or being at best mostly dead weight in 1.

Low level parties simply do not have the resources to maintain a character that is eating so much damage unless they all specifically build around it, and he's not self-sustaining at all. A character like this is a drag on resources that the party may not even HAVE, because there was no way for anyone in the party to plan around this, since they all picked classes BEFORE rolling stats.

That's the part that makes me vicariously frustrated because this stat spread works for almost literally any other kind of character in the game. It'd make a great Cleric, or Wizard, or even a Monk (Zen Archer, yo, or some kind of Combat Maneuver specialist since you can actually get Wis to combat maneuvers), but is spectacularly unsuited for being a Paladin specifically, and is likely going to leave a big hole in a party comp that was probably expecting the Paladin is going to be the big beefy frontline damage dealer and may not have hedged their bets well enough on that.

That's not true, a level 1 PC is literally a CR 1 encounter, a single CR1 enemy is considered an average battle for a group of 4 players.
In fact if you look at the tables, 4 CR 1 monsters have a total CR 5, which is over the maximum suggested challenge rating for designing a LEP 1 encounter (CR +3 is already considered an epic fight).
So, nope, 4 level 1 PCs are not supposed to win easily a CR 5 encounter, they are not supposed to face it at all, the same way the result of a single level 1 PC against a CR 1 monster is uncertain.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/#Designing_Encounters

[Rynjin]

That's not true, a level 1 PC is literally a CR 1 encounter, a single CR1 enemy is considered an average battle for a group of 4 players.
In fact if you look at the tables, 4 CR 1 monsters have a total CR 5, which is over the maximum suggested challenge rating for designing a LEP 1 encounter (CR +3 is already considered an epic fight).
So, nope, 4 level 1 PCs are not supposed to win easily a CR 5 encounter, they are not supposed to face it at all, the same way the result of a single level 1 PC against a CR 1 monster is uncertain.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/#Designing_Encounters

Technically correct (except "a level 1 PC is a CR 1 encounter"; they're CR 1/2 until they hit level 2 with proper level 2 WBL), but in practice not even the way that Paizo sets up their encounters. In general the average encounter difficulty for APs starts at CR 2 and climbs from there, because Paizo realizes that CR 1 encounters are pretty much impossible to build to be worth the time to run them.

Most CR 1 enemies that come in packs of 4 are not dangerous enough to be considered a CR 5 encounter in the slightest. 4 Gnolls =/= 1 Troll, or Basilisk, or Wraith, or even a Large Elemental.

[Spore]

Entirely in-character, I feel the dwarf would start off as a paladin and then realize this isn't quite working out the way it should. They'd retrain to either an inquisitor or a cleric. No really. You don't have to stay in class anymore. And a character concept to me is not a class, but an idea. And high Wis/Int on a faith based character is just a clerical scholar to me.

If you however decide that you have to stick with Paladin, the other posters have much more insight than me.

[Particle_Man]

If it helps the math I got max gold and got a dwarven war axe and banded mail and heavy wooden shield.

I don’t have the option of retraining. I could multi-class but my first level has to be paladin (stonelord).

[legomaster00156]

There is no strategic advantage to staying in Paladin over multiclassing into something like a Cleric, unfortunately. If you had a higher CHA, you could at least stay for Divine Grace, but it's useless to you with 10 CHA.

[Particle_Man]

Stonelord trades out the chr stuff anyhow.

[CharonsHelper]

Stonelord trades out the chr stuff anyhow.

It's a fun archetype - but it's generally rather sub-par. The only real reason to take it is to be able to dump your CHA.

Okay - I'm going to +1 that you drop your paladin class ASAP - BUT - your stat array is actually pretty amazing for one specific build - which happens to be a lot of fun. Being a level behind hurts, but better than continuing to throw levels at paladin to try to make it work.

Go into monk... with 3 different archetypes stacked. Qinggong, Sensei, and Drunken Master. (yes - you can stack them)

At 2nd level you will be able to use WIS for your attack rolls, take Quick Drinking (requires a CON of 18 - which you have) to be able to drink booze as a swift action (drinking gives you free ki), get awesome ki abilities with Qinggong.

At level 6 (of monk) you can have your ki abilities affect your buddies. So... free barkskin for everyone! And then at 10 you can give the abilities to everyone within 30 ft. "Hey everybody - I'm going to give you all True Strike again this turn!" That - plus getting bardic performance (based upon WIS) makes it an amazing support build.

As an added bonus - with that amount of WIS - your Stunning Fist DC can actually be pretty solid (unlike most monks).

[Selion]

Technically correct (except "a level 1 PC is a CR 1 encounter"; they're CR 1/2 until they hit level 2 with proper level 2 WBL), but in practice not even the way that Paizo sets up their encounters. In general the average encounter difficulty for APs starts at CR 2 and climbs from there, because Paizo realizes that CR 1 encounters are pretty much impossible to build to be worth the time to run them.

Most CR 1 enemies that come in packs of 4 are not dangerous enough to be considered a CR 5 encounter in the slightest. 4 Gnolls =/= 1 Troll, or Basilisk, or Wraith, or even a Large Elemental.

This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.
BTW, CR are designed for 15 point buy unoptimized characters, the game is actually more balanced with characters like this 12 str paladin than with pouncing barbarians,but this is the DM's job, the real issue is inter-party balance, if OP's comrades have way stronger characters, which it's likely beacause of this stats generation method, he could be underwhelmed.

[CharonsHelper]

This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.

CR 1/2 is for an NPC stat array. PCs by default have elite stat arrays (if not rolling or point-buy) which would boost the CR.

[Rynjin]

This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.

I've always figured that the general idea is for PCs to be weaker than CR 1 at start, is why they added the "-1 CR for being below WBL" clause. It doesn't really play against my argument at all given that the wealth difference is quickly made up when fighting enemies, generally in the form of dropping several Masterwork weapons before you even get to level 2; this is consistently done across all the APs I've played, with enemies being vastly better geared than the average PC to start.



BTW, CR are designed for 15 point buy unoptimized characters, the game is actually more balanced with characters like this 12 str paladin than with pouncing barbarians,but this is the DM's job, the real issue is inter-party balance, if OP's comrades have way stronger characters, which it's likely beacause of this stats generation method, he could be underwhelmed.

CR as far as I know is balanced around 20 PB, not 15. Pathfinder Society and Adventure Paths all assume 20 PB, and all of the Iconics are built using 20 PB.

The OP has the equivalent of a 4 PB in usable combat stats.

[Selion]

CR as far as I know is balanced around 20 PB, not 15. Pathfinder Society and Adventure Paths all assume 20 PB, and all of the Iconics are built using 20 PB.

The OP has the equivalent of a 4 PB in usable combat stats.

I noticed this character has even a low cha, which can be an issue. Op should ask their DM if it's allowed the 3.5 Guided (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Guided) enchantment, otherwise the only one way to be useful i see is the Bodyguard - in harm's way tree of feats

[Rynjin]

I noticed this character has even a low cha, which can be an issue. Op should ask their DM if it's allowed the 3.5 Guided (https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Guided) enchantment, otherwise the only one way to be useful i see is the Bodyguard - in harm's way tree of feats

He should definitely ask about Guided. Unfortunately Bodyguard is not a good option; read the fine print: it requires you to make Attacks of Opportunity.

Archon Style works a bit better, as I mentioned.

[Conradine]

Has the Paladin already fallen?

[RatElemental]

Has the Paladin already fallen?

Quite the trick to fall at some point between character creation and the first session.

[Particle_Man]

I doubt my dm will allow the guided property but I will ask. The monk looks interesting though. And since I lose the stuff that works only with no armour I could just keep wearing armour (and if I am caught in a night attack, then the unarmored AC kicks in so it is not too bad). Seems like I need to find a lot of tankards of beer though! Do dungeons have taverns? :smallsmile:

[CharonsHelper]

The monk looks interesting though. And since I lose the stuff that works only with no armour I could just keep wearing armour (and if I am caught in a night attack, then the unarmored AC kicks in so it is not too bad). Seems like I need to find a lot of tankards of beer though! Do dungeons have taverns? :smallsmile:

My drunk monk just carried a skins of hooch! For hard liquor, it only takes 1.5 ounces to be a drink, so one skin will last a fight.

If you can get someone to cast Mage Armor on you (buy them a wand or a pearl of power), your AC when unarmored will be equal to full plate even at the 1st level of monk. Definitely go unarmored eventually, as you'll get an extra + to monk AC as you level, and likely be able to get + WIS & DEX from items eventually. In addition, your stat-ups should go into WIS, as its your primary stat.

[Biggus]

Uhm, you must have had some parameter off, because i haven't got the same results. I can actually do the calculation myself

p(9)=(1/6)^9=9.93 e-8
p(10)=9*(1/6)^9=8.93 e-7
p(11)=(9*8/2+9)*(1/6)^9=4.46 e-6
p(12)=(9*8*7/3*2+9*8/2 + 9*8/2 +9)*(1/6)^9=1.64 e-5

which are the same results of the software:

"output 1",31.500000000004224,5.123475382980105,9,54
#,%
9,0.00000992290301275
10,0.0000893061271148
11,0.000446530635574
12,0.0016372789971

so, you have an answer, dear OP, you have scored a 2 out of 100000 chance

Hang on, the first line is the probability of rolling all 1's which would produce a score of 3, not 9. Likewise the second line is the probability of rolling a 2 and the rest 1's, for a total of 4.

[Mordante]

Point buy is meaningless in this scenario, since every single one of his primary stats (Str, Dex, Cha) except Con is tanked. I think people too often make the mistake of evaluating PB in a vacuum rather than in practice.

You can (and I have done for some games) just let players take an 18 in every single stat and it doesn't actually change very much for most characters. Like, if someone is playing a Barbarian, for example, the 18 Str and Con is cool (but doable or close to doable otherwise) and the 18 Dex is a cherry over the 14 they'd likely otherwise have...but the 18 Int/Wis/Cha? Largely meaningless in terms of raising the Barbarian's overall power. Nice to have those extra skill points and be able to make use of Cha based skills and have that slight boost to Will saves (which a Barbarian does not in the slightest actually NEED in most scenarios) but that's all they are: nice to have, not a real power boost.

The OP's spread is full of "nice to have" stats (Con, Wis, Int) but severely lacking in Paladin's "needed for power" stats (Str or Dex and Cha). He's sidestepped the Cha deficiency with an archetype that removes most of the Cha dependent abilities (and replaces it with abilities that are far weaker in most scenarios, but at least function with a 10 Cha) but that still leaves him as a combat class with significantly low combat stats, on paper "16 PB" or no.

Giving players 18 across the board is way OP IMHO. We normally roll 2*5D6, 3*4D6 and 1*3D6 rerolling 1s. No charachter should have super stats across the board and a stat of 18 at low level should be rare. My current fighter has a charisma of 8. There is nothing wrong with one low stat.

[Selion]

Hang on, the first line is the probability of rolling all 1's which would produce a score of 3, not 9. Likewise the second line is the probability of rolling a 2 and the rest 1's, for a total of 4.

Ahhhh, i read again OP, i skipped the "keep the top three" line, now that i think again about it summing up 9d6 would have been impossible

[Particle_Man]

Well I am trying out the Stonelord. Turns out there already is a Sendai in the party so I won’t do that. Offensively I was a bust, missing once and hitting a monster for four hp damage just before someone else slammed it into oblivion, over killing it by more than four hp (admittedly I rolled low on damage). On the upside, we have no rogue so I just went forward opening doors and yes a poison needle got me from a door trap but I just shrugged it off for no damage. So my role may be poor man’s trap detector. 😀

[Rynjin]

Giving players 18 across the board is way OP IMHO. We normally roll 2*5D6, 3*4D6 and 1*3D6 rerolling 1s. No charachter should have super stats across the board and a stat of 18 at low level should be rare. My current fighter has a charisma of 8. There is nothing wrong with one low stat.

You would think it would be OP, but it's really not. It is about a CR +1 adjustment at first level, admittedly, but really evens out around level 3.

The key is realizing that stats don't matter; only what a character can DO with them matters. A Fighter can't really do anything with an 18 Charisma or Intelligence for instance; nothing game changing in any case.

So a stat that doesn't matter is no stat at all.

If you consider an average character is going to have a spread of roughly 16 14 14 10 10 10 with 20 PB (put those 16s and 14s into their key stats), giving a player an 18 in everything is only a +1 point difference for their highest stat and +2 for the other relevant secondary stats (Dex and Con for a Fighter). This is neat, and powerful at low levels, but not hugely impactful the further the game progresses since you can already hit the point of diminishing returns fairly quickly (if you hit an enemy on a 2 anyway, a +1 to attack rolls doesn't matter, and a +1 to damage matters very little).

Getting the 18 in those other stats increases things the character typically LIKES to have, but doesn't really need and is not overly impacted by it, or shores up weaknesses that would otherwise be crippling into merely chinks in the armor.

An 18 in Wisdom is great for the Fighter, giving him a +2-4 extra to Will saves and Perception checks he might otherwise have, but the lack of Good progression will ensure that is merely "okay" by level 5 or so instead of great.

This applies for pretty much anything else, too. Wizards typically aren't going to care about Str, Con, and Cha, so they get no real benefit out of it they weren't already going to shore up with spells or other options later (like Ant Haul or Bruising Intellect).

I wouldn't run every game like this, since it does produce "heroic" characters, but it's not "OP" in any real sense since the players are guaranteed to be evenly matched with EACH OTHER in terms of stats and so all challenges can be tweaked accordingly to account for their higher than average challenge level (which diminishes over time).

[Particle_Man]

You can turn that around. If all 18's don't matter because stats don't matter, then a paladin having str 12 dex 12 chr 10 doesn't matter because stats don't matter.

[Rynjin]

You can turn that around. If all 18's don't matter because stats don't matter, then a paladin having str 12 dex 12 chr 10 doesn't matter because stats don't matter.

You can't, actually. Remember what I said about hitting the point of diminishing returns?

You don't hit it until very high level with a setup like that.

Stats matter the most at lower levels, and less at higher levels when buffs and other boosts can make up the difference. Having higher stats can reduce resource expenditure in the late game (Heroism may or may not be necessary, as an example) but having lower stats will increase expenditure (leading to shorter adventuring days), and you will always struggle in the early game, as you yourself have already experienced.

[Darg]

Any one else remember when stats would on average be 10? Still do some short adventures with 3d6s with pre-declared averaged minimums. Hilarity ensues when a character hits the extremes though.

Anyways, 2 orcs should be brought down by a group of 4-5 level 1 PCs even with a CR of only 1/3 as adding another orc would add +2 to the CR which would put it at CR 1. 1 level 1 paladin should not be going toe to toe with the orc in the first place unless that paladin is wanting to have a close call. An APL 1 3 person group should be fighting a CR of 1/2. The rules are clear https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/#Designing_Encounters

A single level 1 should not be coming out of a CR 1 without being nearly dead, on average.


but having lower stats will increase expenditure (leading to shorter adventuring days), and you will always struggle in the early game,

This isn't a problem. It is a designed limitation. An average stat is 10. 12 in a stat is exceptional and 14 required intense dedication. 18 means you are unbelievable and 20 means you are a monster. If it is a problem to have lower stats, just give everyone 30 in every stat to remove any inconvenience.

[CharonsHelper]

Any one else remember when stats would on average be 10? Still do some short adventures with 3d6s with pre-declared averaged minimums. Hilarity ensues when a character hits the extremes though.

In third edition? 10 was never the average for PCs. 10-11 was average for NPCs (though their primary stat will be 12-14), while PCs are intended to have much higher attributes.

In earlier editions, attributes meant entirely different things, and generally attributes mattered much less. It's apples to oranges.

[Selion]

Well I am trying out the Stonelord. Turns out there already is a Sendai in the party so I won’t do that. Offensively I was a bust, missing once and hitting a monster for four hp damage just before someone else slammed it into oblivion, over killing it by more than four hp (admittedly I rolled low on damage). On the upside, we have no rogue so I just went forward opening doors and yes a poison needle got me from a door trap but I just shrugged it off for no damage. So my role may be poor man’s trap detector. 😀

Well, you can go archon style even without digging into monk, so at least you can help your teammates. If you put a few points in dexterity, even with magic items, combat reflexes/bodyguard / in harm's way is still a viable option. Furthermore walking unschated through the battelfied thank to sheer tankiness helps you giving your comrades flanking bonus, which could be increased further with outflank. Try this tanky dude and let us know if it somewhat works.

[Darg]

In third edition? 10 was never the average for PCs. 10-11 was average for NPCs (though their primary stat will be 12-14), while PCs are intended to have much higher attributes.

In earlier editions, attributes meant entirely different things, and generally attributes mattered much less. It's apples to oranges.

Yeah, I was referring to the earlier editions for fun. Even still, the CR system is clearly balanced around a 4-5 person party with a 10 point buy with 12 being high average. Need a high casting stat? You are looking at high level campaign play. The difference between 12 and 18 strength is 15% more hits and 3 more damage. At level 1, it ain't nothin' to sneeze at, but the game isn't designed with solo play in mind. Take what another poster mentioned with how the OP's dwarf is going to take on average 6-7 rounds to kill an orc. Add in one more person with the same crappy strength stat and all of a sudden you cut down the time to 3-3.5 rounds, within the bounds of the balanced encounter and a fitting average match up. Take resistances vs spells/effects. Targeting a weak save more than makes up for having a relatively low casting stat. I won't say having less slots isn't a bad thing, but 18 vs 12 is only 3 spell slots. If 3 spell slots is a problem then people are trying to use magic like a machine gun instead of a tactical advantage. Though that would be the DM's fault for balancing their encounters so that the party needs to be full power all the time and not increasing the length of the average work day.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I was referring to the earlier editions for fun. Even still, the CR system is clearly balanced around a 4-5 person party with a 10 point buy with 12 being high average.

As I mentioned up thread, this is clearly incorrect. Everything is balanced around 20 PB. The iconics are built on 20 PB and the Pathfinder Society limit is 20 PB.

NPCs are built on 10 (basic) and 15 (Heroic), not PCs.


Need a high casting stat? You are looking at high level campaign play. The difference between 12 and 18 strength is 15% more hits and 3 more damage. At level 1, it ain't nothin' to sneeze at, but the game isn't designed with solo play in mind. Take what another poster mentioned with how the OP's dwarf is going to take on average 6-7 rounds to kill an orc. Add in one more person with the same crappy strength stat and all of a sudden you cut down the time to 3-3.5 rounds, within the bounds of the balanced encounter and a fitting average match up.

What are the rest of the Orcs doing in the meantime? Up to 3 Orcs is can be a reasonable challenge for a party of 4 PCs going by the CR tables.


Take resistances vs spells/effects. Targeting a weak save more than makes up for having a relatively low casting stat. I won't say having less slots isn't a bad thing, but 18 vs 12 is only 3 spell slots. If 3 spell slots is a problem then people are trying to use magic like a machine gun instead of a tactical advantage. Though that would be the DM's fault for balancing their encounters so that the party needs to be full power all the time and not increasing the length of the average work day.

This is also incorrect. Poor saves scale faster in Pathfinder than 3.5, to my recollection. If you have a 12 casting stat, targeting the CR 1 creature's poor save (which is kind of difficult given you have so few spell available at 1st, but let's assume) You're throwing a DC 12 saving throw at it. It still saves on a 10 with its Poor save.

As you level, let's assume you eke out the minimum require casting stat for your spell, so at level 10 you have a 15 casting stat. The CR 10 enemy's poor save is +9 vs your DC 17 with a 5th level spell. They now save on an 8. Your best spell has a 35% chance of success under optimal circumstances. In other words, you suck.

Your chances of failure rise as your levels rise. It in no way "makes up" for the low casting stat if you target its poor save. Even worse, again, your spell selection is limited, and the effects themselves are limited. Most save or die/suck spells give Fort or Will saves, while most damage spells give Ref saves. If your enemy's poor save is Ref, then you may very well not have a save or die/suck spell available for that save, and so not only do you not have a 35% chance of ending the encounter (which is already terrible odds) you only have a 35% chance to do something significantly less effective than ending the encounter.

[Darg]

What are the rest of the Orcs doing in the meantime? Up to 3 Orcs is can be a reasonable challenge for a party of 4 PCs going by the CR tables.

3 Orcs have a CR of 2 (3 creatures = CR + 3, 1/3 > 1/2 > 1 > 2) which would put it under challenging, not average. The average encounter is balanced around 3-4 rounds. Challenging encounters are not balanced in such a way.




This is also incorrect. Poor saves scale faster in Pathfinder than 3.5, to my recollection. If you have a 12 casting stat, targeting the CR 1 creature's poor save (which is kind of difficult given you have so few spell available at 1st, but let's assume) You're throwing a DC 12 saving throw at it. It still saves on a 10 with its Poor save.

The orc has a -1 in will saves and are great fodder for sleep.


As you level, let's assume you eke out the minimum require casting stat for your spell, so at level 10 you have a 15 casting stat. The CR 10 enemy's poor save is +9 vs your DC 17 with a 5th level spell. They now save on an 8. Your best spell has a 35% chance of success under optimal circumstances. In other words, you suck.

Your chances of failure rise as your levels rise. It in no way "makes up" for the low casting stat if you target its poor save. Even worse, again, your spell selection is limited, and the effects themselves are limited. Most save or die/suck spells give Fort or Will saves, while most damage spells give Ref saves. If your enemy's poor save is Ref, then you may very well not have a save or die/suck spell available for that save, and so not only do you not have a 35% chance of ending the encounter (which is already terrible odds) you only have a 35% chance to do something significantly less effective than ending the encounter.

You are looking at it all wrong. Even if the player started with 18 in the stat the chance is still only 50%. A single CR 10 enemy is what a group of 4-5 PCs with an APL of 10 are meant to fight. There are other spells able to be used in such a situation so that you don't risk wasting your spell in the first place. 5 CR 5 enemies have a combined CR of 10 and each one has a low save of 4. By level 10 the caster should have at minimum a +4 enhance bonus for a more than likely +4 modifier. A 5th level spell would have a DC of 19. Against those the group of creatures the caster would have a 70% chance to affect them and a 45% chance against the mobbed single creature. A caster with 6 more in the stat still only brings the % to 85 and 60. Ya, it's better, but not much more reliable. As a caster, I would prefer to use spells that are much more reliable in their effects for such encounters in the first place such as a buff or no save. Still, with an appropriate weapon, buffs, and a couple feats even a mage would have ~50% chance to hit with a weapon against a CR 10 creature. Since this is PF there is a plethora of abilities to use in addition to everything else.

[Rynjin]

3 Orcs have a CR of 2 (3 creatures = CR + 3, 1/3 > 1/2 > 1 > 2) which would put it under challenging, not average. The average encounter is balanced around 3-4 rounds. Challenging encounters are not balanced in such a way.

I never said anything about 3-4 rounds for this particular combat (though I'd imagine it still WOULD be over in 5 or under, one way or another with a party of all 12s).

It is still a reasonable challenge, and one the party is supposed to face a couple of times per day. You're typically looking at a single Hard or greater encounter, two Challenging ones, and 3-ish Average to Easy in a day.

To be honest though, I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to argue about the CR system at all. Nobody really uses it, because it's an overall worthless metric for determining how difficult an encounter is going to be.


The orc has a -1 in will saves and are great fodder for sleep.

Correct, which is excellent if you have prepared/known Color Spray or Sleep as your one spell, but not so great if you took Grease or Snowball instead.




You are looking at it all wrong. Even if the player started with 18 in the stat the chance is still only 50%.

55%, which is leagues better than 35%. I would bet my life in a pinch on a better than 50/50 chance; I would not bet it on a slightly better than 1/3 chance of survival.


A single CR 10 enemy is what a group of 4-5 PCs with an APL of 10 are meant to fight. There are other spells able to be used in such a situation so that you don't risk wasting your spell in the first place. 5 CR 5 enemies have a combined CR of 10 and each one has a low save of 4.

You can throw up to a trio of CR 10 enemies at an APL 10 party and expect them to come out on top. Challenging and Hard encounters are still designed to be overcome. That is my point. You will face encounters above your APL with frightening regularity in any campaign the GM is not purposefully softballing you. This includes published content.

Also what "other spells"? We're assuming you're using your best spell remember? You're targeting their weak save with your strongest spell and still sucking ass.


By level 10 the caster should have at minimum a +4 enhance bonus for a more than likely +4 modifier. A 5th level spell would have a DC of 19. Against those the group of creatures the caster would have a 70% chance to affect them and a 45% chance against the mobbed single creature. A caster with 6 more in the stat still only brings the % to 85 and 60. Ya, it's better, but not much more reliable. As a caster, I would prefer to use spells that are much more reliable in their effects for such encounters in the first place such as a buff or no save. Still, with an appropriate weapon, buffs, and a couple feats even a mage would have ~50% chance to hit with a weapon against a CR 10 creature. Since this is PF there is a plethora of abilities to use in addition to everything else.

Even assuming you're correct (I typically only assume a +2 Enhance at level 10 because it can be difficult to scrape the money together for a 16k gp expenditure when you still have other expenses in the Big 6 alone and still want stuff like Metamagic Rods) I'm not sure you quite understand the gulf of magnitude between a 45% chance and a 60% chance in how reliable something is. A 15% difference is enormous over the length of a campaign.

And sure, you can always fall back on being a buff-bot, but not very many people like to play dedicated support and keep a passive role. Do you understand how boring it is to say "I cast Haste" at the start of every combat?

Also where are you getting this "50% chance to hit with a weapon" crock? You're hitting an expected AC of 24, with an attack bonus of +6 if you're lucky. That's a 10% chance, not a 50%. Your CASTING STAT is a 12, why would your Str or Dex be any higher?

And even when you do hit, what then? You're smacking them for what, a d8+2? 6 damage vs 130 HP plus likely DR reducing that damage to 1 or even 0?

[Particle_Man]

It's usually pretty hard to do since the GM uses some reasonable character creation method. "Choose class, then roll stats" is one of the worst charop methods I've ever heard of.

@OP: Take an archetype that gives you Channel early or dip Cleric, then take Guided Hand (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/guided-hand/). This will at least let you hit more than once in a blue moon once you painstakingly crawl your way to level 3. Sadly Torag isn't a deity with a ranged favored weapon.

I think I will dip a level of cleric with the crusader archetype and the archon domain. That will give me a mini buff role if I desire and a bonus on my attack rolls by level 5. I can improve my str to 13 at level 4 and take power attack at level 7. I will still likely stick with paladin (stonelord) after that but will see how it goes.