How much Fast Healing do you need to justify LA +1?

[Jon_Dahl]

I decided to give my player's PC Fast Healing 2 in exchange for LA +1. Fair? And if not, what would be fair then?

The reason why I wanted to give him Fast Healing was that the group does not have a cleric/healer and this character happens to be the group's front-liner. Fast Healing solves 0.1% of the problems that not having a healer causes, but it's a start. I will solve the rest of the problems later.

[tyckspoon]

Depends on how valuable your players think HP are? Personally, I'd think LA +1 is an excessive cost for just low value Fast Healing. It functionally just means you'll go into each fight at full HP, and the rules of the game are lousy with ways to do that. Nearly all of them are much lower costs than a full level. I'd want that LA to include things to address other issues likely to come up by not having a divine caster available as well as what is being sacrificed by losing an actual class level - increased saves, immunity/resistance to common status effects, something like Iron Heart Surge or the Resurgence spell, etc.

[GrayDeath]

Are they below Level 5ish?

Then LA +1 is worth it for Fast Healing 2.

Between Level 5 and 8 he would have to get at elast Fast healing 4 and maybe a b it of DR on top given true Frontliners in a game as swingy as any D20 derivate WILL be wounded a lot.

Later on it will likely need even more.

And as you yourself said, it only "solves" very little.

No Cleric/Healer also sounds like (if this is your "low magic world with 100eds of +1 weapons" game) no Potions/Scrolls to use instead?

Or, you know, you could just NOT play a Game like 3.5 without giving the Characters access to what all of the Classes, CR lists and whatnot assume they have. Just a thought. ^^

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fast Healing 2 translates into two things:

(1) Full health at the start of an encounter.
(2) Two extra hit points per round, if you took damage.

The first is a wand of lesser vigour, which costs 750 gp and a small investment in UMD.
The second is a dorje of vigour at ML 2, which costs 1500 gp and a small investment in UPD. You can also use an amulet of tears, which grants 12 temporary hp per charge as a swift action, three times a day, with no use limit and no UPD check. It costs 2300 gp.


Are you playing at the level where 2250 to 3050 gp in WBL is worth +1 LA? Unless you're level 1, you probably aren't, and even at level 1, it's arguably a bad deal. You're much better off replacing that LA with a level in cleric, crusader, healer, favoured soul, dragon shaman, druid, bard, incarnate, etcetera, etcetera. So: not fair.


For my part, I think "just fast healing" is a boring template, and I would rather have the cheap magic items.

If it has to be fast healing, make it scale with level or HD. Say, half hit dice plus two.
If it can be homebrew, consider making it a certain amount of (non-stacking) temporary hp per round. Say, hit dice plus four. It's more potent in combat, but it doesn't heal you out of combat.

Stack a small save/AC bonus on there, to compensate for the lost level, at least. Say, +2 to AC and each save, and Improved Toughness as bonus feat.

[liquidformat]

So I don't think Fast Healing 2 comes close to a +1 LA, for that matter any level of Fast Healing won't come close to a +1 LA it just isn't a powerful enough ability in and of itself to be worth a level ever.
Here are a list of a few ways to get something like FH 2 off the top of my head so we can start to get an idea of its worth:

Feral Template - one among a goody bag of abilities. Admittedly this should probably be a +2 LA template as written it is a +1 so it is a decent starting point for gauging the worth of 1 LA
Troll Blooded Feat gives regeneration 1 for the price of 2 feats, regeneration 1 is better than FH 2 even though there really aren't many mechanical ways to loose a limb.
Warshaper 4 it is a class feature
Vigor line of spells, for the cost of a wand and possible UMD investment you obtain Fast Healing (so 750-11,250)
Fast Healing Epic feat requiring Con 25, honestly this could be pulled down into level 6-12 by requiring a Base Fort and lowering the Con requirement with little impact to the game...
Healing Belt from MIC does pretty decent job replacing fast healing until maybe level 8~


All considered I think your best bet is to give the option of Trollblooded feat or pulling down Fast Healing Feat from epic levels, in our games we have moved the requirements for Fast Healing feat to Con 20, Base Fort Save +6 without any issues.

[Berenger]

According to the d20 Pathfinder system reference document "Creating New Races":

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/



Fast Healing (6 RP)

Prerequisites: None.

Benefit: Members of this race regain 1 hit point each round. Except for where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a member of this race dies, at which point the effects of fast healing immediately end.

Special: This trait can be taken multiple times. Each time fast healing is taken, its cost increases by 1 RP.

A LA +0 race has 10 RP to spend on features, LA +1 has 20 RP, LA +2 has 30 RP...

So, Fast Healing II would be priced at 13 RP, rounded down to 10 for a LA +1 template.

That said, I personally wouldn't take it under most circumstances, as an additional class level translates to more survivability and more versatility and there are cheaper methods of healing as demonstrated by the earlier replies.

[emulord]

LA seems like too much, but I think it would be worth a feat under some circumstances.

[Jack_Simth]

LA seems like too much, but I think it would be worth a feat under some circumstances.

Interestingly, there's a feat for proper Regeneration (Troll-Blooded, Dragon 319, requires Toughness, and is a 1st level only regional feat).

Is regeneration 1 (Fire/Acid) with a sunlight fatigue rider and a mostly-useless requirement more or less valuable than Fast Healing 2?

[nedz]

It is close to the feat Healing Devotion which gives a scaling (1-5) Fast Healing 1/day or 1/TU.

At will should put the price up, probably to LA +1, but you could make it scale the same way as Healing Devotion.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It is close to the feat Healing Devotion which gives a scaling (1-5) Fast Healing 1/day or 1/TU.

At will should put the price up, probably to LA +1, but you could make it scale the same way as Healing Devotion.
You would never take that template, because you could easily take a level in cleric, trade the Healing domain for Healing Devotion, and have 4 + CHA uses/day plus a selection of spells, a hit die, +2 to two saves, and increased skills.

[nedz]

You would never take that template, because you could easily take a level in cleric, trade the Healing domain for Healing Devotion, and have 4 + CHA uses/day plus a selection of spells, a hit die, +2 to two saves, and increased skills.

No I wouldn't, and neither would you, but apparently a level in Cleric is out of the question ?

[JNAProductions]

No I wouldn't, and neither would you, but apparently a level in Cleric is out of the question ?

I'm not reading it that way. I don't think the DM said "NO CLERICS!" I think the players just didn't choose anyone with good healing.

[Ruethgar]

Interestingly, there's a feat for proper Regeneration (Troll-Blooded, Dragon 319, requires Toughness, and is a 1st level only regional feat).

Is regeneration 1 (Fire/Acid) with a sunlight fatigue rider and a mostly-useless requirement more or less valuable than Fast Healing 2?

More valuable IMO, don't run into limbs getting lopped off often, but it is nice. If you can sweet talk the GM into letting you have two regional feats then you can ignore the penalties as well(Tireless), but it does costs you two flaws and your first level feat to get that.

I would not put Fast Healing 2 at LA+1. Martial Spirit Stance requires a whopping 2 feats for the uninitiated and provides endless out of combat healing just by making touch attacks against your party members and in combat can be more potent than Fast Healing 2, but that depends on the build. Also in ToB, you have the Stone Power feat for up to 10 temp HP per turn, again only 2 feats.

[Quertus]

IIRC, fast healing cuts off when you reach 0 HP. Regeneration - alla TrollBlooded - does not. I would push for nice, simple, RAW Trollblooded, personally.

[ExLibrisMortis]

No I wouldn't, and neither would you, but apparently a level in Cleric is out of the question ?
I do wonder about that, actually. I suppose it could be that the player doesn't want a level in cleric for flavour reasons, but I can't imagine a frontline build that could not, given a few moments to book-dive, find some class they could take to provide healing.

[Demidos]

Out of curiousity, what if you gave him the 3.5 or pathfinder paladin's lay on hands ability instead of fast healing? It fixes more of the issue of the party not having a healer, gives him more flexibility on how to use that healing, and gives him some interesting combat choices (do I heal myself, my ally, or attack?) You could even key it to a more relevant stat for him (e.g. Con) if he doesn't have that much charisma. I did the math for the 3.5 Lay on Hands compared to the fast healing, and the fast healing clearly heals more (though less flexibly), but I think the pathfinder paladin ability is worth the +1 LA.

Back of the envelope math:
Givens/Assuming:
Lay on hands heals (Paladin level x cha mod (min 1)) per day.
PCs have ~7-14 HP added per level (lets say 10 per level for paladins).
He has 3 combats per day, and takes about 1.5x his HP between the three combats (3 is more than I think most parties do, at least for hard combats).
He gets it keyed to Con, and has a 20 CON (which is high for 1st level, low for later levels)

We calculate that at first level he can heal....5 hp with the 3.5 lay on hands, fast healing 2 will heal him 15 hp
We calculate that at fifth level he can heal....25 hp with the LOH, or FH 2 will heal him
We calculate that at tenth level he can heal....50 hp with the lay on hands, or fast healing 2 will heal him
We calculate that at twentieth level he can heal....100 hp with the lay on hands, or fast healing 2 will heal him 350 hp

[nedz]

I do wonder about that, actually. I suppose it could be that the player doesn't want a level in cleric for flavour reasons, but I can't imagine a frontline build that could not, given a few moments to book-dive, find some class they could take to provide healing.

If only there was some way, in this game, of making a Cleric into a front liner ?

[AvatarVecna]

The value of a level increases over time, even for non-caster classes. No flat amount of anything can be realistically considered "worth it" for any flat amount of LA. That's why most templates are trash. Saint template, with the RP requirements baked into it, is probably about where templates "should" be, with AC Bonus/SLAs/DR/Fast Healing/Protective Aura all slightly improving with HD. It gets a bit worse once you're epic since DR and Fast Healing stop improving, but even just the AC bonus keeps it considerable until you're pretty deep into epic. Feral template, which is probably too good for what it provides at least until epic, gives NA +6, Darkvision 60ft+, Fast Healing 2+, Pounce, and net +2 to attributes...and it's LA +1. Stripping away everything except the leveling Fast Healing still leaves this template better than what you're suggesting.

If a template only gives Fast Healing, it needs to be significant and it needs to improve over time. I'd say...Fast Healing 2 per HD? That's 4 times as fast as Saint, but getting absolutely nothing else Saint gives...

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can get it for two feats at level 9; combat focus + combat vigor, provided you meet the wis requirement. Grab two more of the combat form feats (good feats, IMO) and it goes up to fast healing 4

It's not always on but it lasts 12 rounds starting with your first successful attack in an encounter when you get it. 14 if you grab the two to bump it up which you can technically do before you get it in the first place. There's no per day limit either.

Otherwise, yeah, just see about acquiring the feral template. You will become the definition of the big stupid fighter but you'll be tough as nails.

[icefractal]

Fast Healing, not unless it scaled considerably. Regeneration w/ a semi-obscure type like Silver though? I'd say that's worth +1 - it means you pretty much don't die unless the foes know how to kill you and are trying to do so. Maybe immunity or a large bonus vs death effects too.

[Troacctid]

Fast healing is similar to damage reduction in that small amounts of it aren't enough to really have a meaningful impact on combat. Healing between combats is nice, but if it doesn't matter in the combats itself, it won't be worth +1 LA. If you want my attention, you need a nice chunky number like fast healing 10 or so.

That said, I don't know if I actually like the gameplay on the bigger fast healing numbers, so my recommendation would actually be to stick with fast healing 2, but add more perks. Some simple ability score bonuses would be a healthier way to push it into viability, IMO. Give me a net +6 to my ability scores and suddenly it's looking a lot more attractive. A fly speed wouldn't hurt either.

[Gnaeus]

You can get it for two feats at level 9; combat focus + combat vigor, provided you meet the wis requirement. Grab two more of the combat form feats (good feats, IMO) and it goes up to fast healing 4

It's not always on but it lasts 12 rounds starting with your first successful attack in an encounter when you get it. 14 if you grab the two to bump it up which you can technically do before you get it in the first place. There's no per day limit either.

You can also get permanent fast healing with 2 feats (toughness and a second feat) from Dreamscarred press if that’s an available thing. You can do it at first level, which is good because that’s when fast healing 2 is good, but you need to be a shapeshifter (feral vitality) or aberration, fey, ooze or plant (overflowing life).

[Elves]

For this little, why not just give him a free magic item? Or make him a homebrew feat, since you're comfortable making a homebrew template. That would be a more appropriate place to insert it, since fast healing alone is hard to compare with the benefits of a class level.

If it has to be a template, and the template has no other benefits, I would say fast healing = HD (max 20). If you feel that's too much you could do 5 plus 1 per four HD, which gives a nice chunk off the bat. Let him buy off the LA, at any rate.

[denthor]

Your setting expectations way to high. Roleplaying is better get an NPC cleric you run it.
They just need to get it out of the easy life of being indoors. Give the cleric a superior who is Lawful Neutral cleric is Chaotic Neutral deity is straight up neutral. They can not stand each other but she is a higher ranking cleric in the place, but still answers to someone else. She is the administrator of the that location and is desperate to get this cleric out of her hair.

Oh his default setting is church over party. For more fun make him part theif.

[Feantar]

According to the d20 Pathfinder system reference document "Creating New Races":

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/




A LA +0 race has 10 RP to spend on features, LA +1 has 20 RP, LA +2 has 30 RP...

So, Fast Healing II would be priced at 13 RP, rounded down to 10 for a LA +1 template.

That said, I personally wouldn't take it under most circumstances, as an additional class level translates to more survivability and more versatility and there are cheaper methods of healing as demonstrated by the earlier replies.

An LA +0 race has up to 19 RP if you look at the Average Party Level table(Which is essentially LA). A party can be comprised of 19 RP races and count as LA +0. So in PF, fast healing 2 would not actually be LA +1.

[Troacctid]

You could do fast healing at LA +0 if you gated it by level, a la raptoran. At 1st level, you recover 1 HP every 5 minutes. At 5th level, it improves to fast healing 1, but only while below half your max HP. At 10th level, your fast healing is always on, and improves to fast healing 2. At 15th level, it improves to fast healing 5. At 20th level, fast healing 10.

Tack on -2 Dex to balance it out, or remove other racial traits a la dragonborn, and voila, LA +0 template.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is a dragon magazine race that has fast healing at +1 LA: Dark Sun's mul. It gets +2 Str, +4 Con, a scaling increased healing rate that eventually becomes fast healing 1 at 10, and 3 and 15, as well as few other goodies. It is a solid race, although overshadowed by other +1 options. Gives you an idea for barometer for your fast healing.

[Quertus]

If this is the "no magic item Wal-Mart" game, I think that "fast healing" to counter the lack of needed healing is just the a symptom of a larger problem, and the first of many such needful things, and that "party Cleric" is the only possible answer.

Nobody wants to play as a box of bandaids? Just gestalt the entire party into Clerics. Set up that they earn the favor of the gods or something.

[Celestia]

If you're giving the meat shield fast healing because you feel like the party needs it, then tacking on LA is just a cruel punishment game. "You can either be underleveled or make the entire party weaker! Make your choice!" No matter the result, it'll leave a poor taste in the mouth.

[Vhaidara]

So, Fast Healing has 2 relevant breakpoints.

The first is Fast Healing 1. This is the point where you should enter every fight at full HP, or close enough. Theoretically this should be a big deal, but the system already has a lot of ways of getting that for small investments. If you don't have access to those methods, it becomes valuable again. But it also suffers because the fighter isn't usually the one who pushes for a rest in long days, at least not independently. That's usually the casters who have run out of spells (at least partly to keep the fighter up)

The second is [insert absurdly huge number here]. And I do mean absurdly. I'm talking like, half your max HP big. This is for combat viable fast healing. This is because, in combat, fast healing is just DR that only applies once a turn, doesn't apply until your turn, and doesn't work if you would get dropped below 0.
Compare the two
DR 1: You get hit once, you have gained effectively 1 HP. You get hit twice, you have gained effectively 2 HP.
FH 1: You get hit once, you have gained effectively 1 HP. You get hit twice, you have still only gained effectively 1 HP
In terms of making fast healing a viable primary defense, it needs to far outweigh an equivalent value of DR. Yes, FH has the advantage of applying against non-physical damage, but it is still too slow to even be considered a tertiary defense in combat, especially since most threatening monsters in 3.5 will be making flurries of attacks with natural weapons.

tl;dr: FH2 and FH1 are almost functionally the same. Both will serve only to top you off between fights. FH is not a combat viable defense unless you are healing off at least half an attack per round, preferably more.

[Jon_Dahl]

Thank you, everyone, for helping me. After carefully reading through all the posts, I have decided that the FH will be half of his level.

[ericgrau]

That seems too low, for any level of optimization. Two +2 stats is on the very low end of LA +1, and more is probably required. A +2 con is worth 1 HP per level plus some other benefits. The most significant part of combat is the first 3 rounds. Meaning about 1.5 HP per level in healing in that time. A little more HP than +2 con, but not the other benefits of +2 con. So it's worth maybe one +2 to a stat. The ability to heal to full between fights is significant, but you get that at fast healing 1. And methods such as a wand of cure light wounds make it obsolete at mid and high level. At low level it is somewhat more useful, but still not usually a big deal. Your lower HP from the LA probably makes you more vulnerable, in fact. Though it's true that if monsters don't think to coup de grace you it could be handy to avoid low level death... even though you drop faster, hit softer and put the rest of your party at higher risk. Even a fast healing of 1 per character level would be a bit on the weak side. Worth about a +4 to con, give or take, with no other special abilities. Something I might do if I was being very cautious and the group was low optimization. I'd suggest 1.5 per level (round down), and if the group optimizes well, even higher than that.

Another alternative rather than increase the amount, would be to improve the type of the ability as he increases in level. Upgrade it to a limited form of regeneration when he reaches a certain level for example, perhaps at the level when cure light wound wands are cheap. At an even higher level let him heal conditions if they're on a limited list each round, and/or require 2 rounds to remove them. More than two rounds and again the ability because weak, similar to between combat healing. Etc. Then the amount of healing might be 0.5 per level to balance out the additional abilities.

I can see why the game might be stingy about giving out fast healing 1 or any fast healing because it's an unusual ability that's hard to get directly. But with all the other ways to heal I think it's not that strong in the hands of a player. In the hands of well organized hit and run monsters it might even be worth more. Or in many NPCs going about their day to day business. But not that strong for PCS.

[Elves]

I think the best solution is to make it a custom feat that he can take (better yet would be a magic item). This is the kind of thing feats are for. A certain amount of fast healing isn't very symmetrical with the benefits of a class level, so it's hard to compare.

[ericgrau]

^ I agree with that approach too. Probably a feat, but either might be better than LA. For fluff you'll probably want to say it can only be taken at level 1, and give some kind of backstory explanation. To keep every commoner or traveler with occupational wounds from taking the feat, make the explanation something extraordinary that most backgrounds couldn't fulfill. And/or make it not kick in until level 2 or 3, from rounding down. That would also help with the issue of fast healing 1 being a bit too strong for really low levels. Fast healing 1 per 2 levels seems fine for a feat. Maybe 1 per 3 levels if the group's optimization is low.