How to use Divination the 4th level spell?

[Armyguyclaude]

Hi all!

I'm going to be using my very first divination spell in the long standing game I'm currently in. The DM has allowed me, an Artificer, to create it and we ended the session shortly afterwords before I could use it. The problem I'm running into is trying to decide what to ask? We are currently trying to track down an entity that is terrorizing the country side. It has eluded us at every point. At the same point we are searching for another "Team" that has gone missing trying to track down this very same problem. I figured "Eureka!" I'm an Artificer if there's a solution I can create one! So here I am. Anytime I come up with a Where question I realize the answer could be very vague. If I asked a when question it doesn't give me any useful information other than time. Not what we will be facing or where we will be facing. If I ask a what question, which seems like a decent thing, it may not give us enough information about where to find it or the other party. The best type of question I can think of is a How question, but just because I cannot think of a loophole in such a question doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I figure since I'm new to this type of thing I could ask people who have a lot more wisdom on this subject. Thank you for any response you may give. Been stumping me for a bit. Our group does not meet up until this Sunday so I have some time to ponder.

EDIT:
I also cannot think of a good Will question. Maybe Who? Only problem our group might have with a Who question is we aren't sure what we're facing is a living entity. Meaning we think it might be a plant. Why also seems like it could lack much substance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Go with where. Your best bet is to ask where the other party is or will be in a week, if you suspect they're still active. Yeah, the answer could be vague but it shouldn't be misleading and if you miss the percentlie roll then you don't get an answer at all.

Either they can share what they've found and give you a better shot at the next info gathering spell you cast since you'll have a better idea what to ask or you can examine what's left of them to try and derive something from that. The where, how, and when of their deaths can provide new leads, if it comes to that.

Who will be a wasted spell if you ask about the entity itself. You don't have enough for a vague answer to be remotely helpful there, given that you're calling it an entity. Who will be its next victim could be quite useful, if you can decipher it from the clue the spell gives you, provided there will be one within the week. That last is the biggest issue with this option. How frequently is the entity creating terror?

Why, in addition to being vaguely answered to begin with, could be utterly incomprehensible if the entity in question is inhuman. Why does a beholder do anything, for instance? A barghest? Even if it is human, what motivates a man who is properly, truly mad?

What could be useful but it's a shot in the dark. The thing may have a goal for which it's reaching, to which its terroistic acts could be entirely incidental or integral. It also might not. It could be a beast whose natural behavior simply looks like a set of intelligently organized actions. Ever seen Tremors 2?

When on its own probably isn't super helpful. You likely already know the when of the past events and the when of the future by itself doesn't mean much without a where or a who to go with it.

And don't sweat the possiblity of loopholes. Seriously, the spell is -not- supposed to be misleading. Just vague.

[Fizban]

Unless you're restricting yourself to yes/no questions, Divination depends pretty much entirely on your DM, but this also means that you can't actually ask a "wrong" question if the DM is on board with you using Divination to solve your problem. Just because you ask "when" doesn't mean that is the only information you can receive.

The generally recognized OP use of yes/no questions is dividing a map repeatedly, as it only takes a handful of answers to reduce the area to a usable target location. If your DM doesn't like this or your foe is moving about, not so useful.

First you need to figure out which of your two problems you're trying to solve- the [marauding entity] is the primary problem and unless your DM has separated them for some reason, you will almost certainly find out about the missing team if you deal with the thing they were looking for. Then, if you don't trust Divination to give you very much, you'll need to figure out all of your existing/available capabilities, why they're failing, and use Divination to deal with just that. For example, you could just ask "Why can't we catch the [marauding entity]?" Then once you know why, assuming it's something you can fix, you fix it and then go find it.

I would generally go for "At what final destination will we find the [X], if we depart tomorrow." Divination specifies that not acting on the information may cause it to become useless- which means that the information is supposed to be useful if you do act upon it appropriately. So that question lets you find out where to go, shop, rest, prepare spells, set out, and reach your destination within a week (because the limit is within a week of casting), finding the target when you get there. Then when you're close to your destination, you can scout with other magic or skills and figure out if you should attack, fall back, stalk, etc.

The only complication here is deciphering a potentially "cryptic rhyme or omen," but that's what ability/knowledge checks and NPCs are for. Linking back to the existing capabilities point, the DM could respond by telling you to search for an uncommon item near some landmark, which you can easily do with 2nd level Locate Object, leading you to foe who is carrying the item. The more planning you do in front of the DM, the more info they have to make the Divination useful- and if they don't want it to be useful, it doesn't matter whether they know your plans or not, because they're the DM.

As an Artificer your existing capabilities do include all spells up to half your Artificer level (max 4th) via the Spell Storing Item infusion. I presume that you're using the artificer's ability to craft items as if it had 2 more caster levels than it actually does and can't actually do much divination-wise with Spell Storing Item yet.

[Anxe]

My players have used a fair bit of Divination. A How question is the best way for the DM to give you a complete answer, but it also means the answer might be more cryptic. Possibly more fun that way though?

[Armyguyclaude]

I would generally go for "At what final destination will we find the [X], if we depart tomorrow." Divination specifies that not acting on the information may cause it to become useless- which means that the information is supposed to be useful if you do act upon it appropriately. So that question lets you find out where to go, shop, rest, prepare spells, set out, and reach your destination within a week (because the limit is within a week of casting), finding the target when you get there. Then when you're close to your destination, you can scout with other magic or skills and figure out if you should attack, fall back, stalk, etc.

The only thing I worry with this is since we're surrounded by a forest in the middle of a winter storm the answer could be as simple as, "This forest". Leaving us to wander the entire forest in the middle of the winter. Like I said I am unfamiliar with how this spell usually works, but I guess I shouldn't assume the DM is as malevolent as I am lol. I do like your idea of giving the DM as much info about what I want to do so it gives them more time to create an adequate response. Maybe I'll message him and work something out before Sunday. Thanks.



As an Artificer your existing capabilities do include all spells up to half your Artificer level (max 4th) via the Spell Storing Item infusion. I presume that you're using the artificer's ability to craft items as if it had 2 more caster levels than it actually does and can't actually do much divination-wise with Spell Storing Item yet.

I'm not quite sure about Spell Storing anything quite yet as I haven't even touched that aspect of the Artificer, but we are allowing for the +2 caster levels as per the Artificer class guide.



For example, you could just ask "Why can't we catch the [marauding entity]?" Then once you know why, assuming it's something you can fix, you fix it and then go find it.
This is an awesome idea.

Thank you all so far for the help you're giving.

[Fizban]

The only thing I worry with this is since we're surrounded by a forest in the middle of a winter storm the answer could be as simple as, "This forest". Leaving us to wander the entire forest in the middle of the winter. Like I said I am unfamiliar with how this spell usually works, but I guess I shouldn't assume the DM is as malevolent as I am lol. I do like your idea of giving the DM as much info about what I want to do so it gives them more time to create an adequate response. Maybe I'll message him and work something out before Sunday. Thanks.
If you're fairly certain they're in the forest then just go with "where in this forest?" If you're not and go with the broader scope and get "this forest," then cast again with "where in this forest?" I'd say the second is a different enough question- though of course, if you get an un-useful "this forest" I'd probably take that as a sign the DM isn't on board. On the other hand, if the answer is "this forest," then that should indicate you don't actualy have to do anything special: the Divination has confirmed that as long as you're in that forest for the next week, you'll find the target (presumably you should keep searching the same way you have been).

I'm not quite sure about Spell Storing anything quite yet as I haven't even touched that aspect of the Artificer, but we are allowing for the +2 caster levels as per the Artificer class guide.
Oh, well it's a heck of a thing. Nothing fancy about it, just read the description (in the new spells section of the main Eberron book), and it's all there. For a small xp cost payable from your crafting reserve, you spend a 1st level infusion and get. . . any spell you want (spell level up to half your caster level, max 4th). It's the kinda thing that's super duper broken if you've got a DM or module that expects things like not having all spells up to 4th level in your pocket at all times. So probably ask your DM if it's something they want to use, but if it's cool then yeah.

This is an awesome idea.
Thanks!

[Quertus]

Personally, I would wait until the party is prepared, with Teleport, Plane Shift, Speak with Dead, Resurrection, scrying, etc, all handy, then ask where the other party is. However, assuming you know them, I'd try a few uses of Sending first.

However, I'm mostly replying because I had a crazy, alternate universe idea:
Q) "Why can't I catch <threat>?"
A) "Because you ain't got but the two arms."
Huh. Not what I meant, but now we know something we didn't before. OK.
Q) ”Where is <investigating party>?”
A) <some place that the party has been - maybe even where they expected to meet up with the other party>
Party goes back there, hires another investigating party, who also disappears.
Q) "Where is the new investigating party?"
A) "In your bellies."
And this is how the party learns that they're werewolves / possessed / otherwise cursed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well it's a heck of a thing. Nothing fancy about it, just read the description (in the new spells section of the main Eberron book), and it's all there. For a small xp cost payable from your crafting reserve, you spend a 1st level infusion and get. . . any spell you want (spell level up to half your caster level, max 4th). It's the kinda thing that's super duper broken if you've got a DM or module that expects things like not having all spells up to 4th level in your pocket at all times. So probably ask your DM if it's something they want to use, but if it's cool then yeah.

This is just a little overstated. It -is- an undeniably great infusion but it's not just "pay xp, cast any spell up to level 4." You have to make a decently difficult UMD check and it has a casting time of 1 minute unless you're willing to spend an action point. You also still have to pay the xp and gold cost of the spell being emulated if it has one.

If you've got time or you're in a bad spot, it's pretty solid. Watch that xp cost though, the craft reserve isn't infinite.

[Armyguyclaude]

If you've got time or you're in a bad spot, it's pretty solid. Watch that xp cost though, the craft reserve isn't infinite.

My problem isn't the XP atm. It's the gold :p



Q) "Where is the new investigating party?"
A) "In your bellies."
And this is how the party learns that they're werewolves / possessed / otherwise cursed.[/indent]

This is hilarious. I feel something like this has happened before to you lol.


If you're fairly certain they're in the forest then just go with "where in this forest?" If you're not and go with the broader scope and get "this forest," then cast again with "where in this forest?" I'd say the second is a different enough question- though of course, if you get an un-useful "this forest" I'd probably take that as a sign the DM isn't on board. On the other hand, if the answer is "this forest," then that should indicate you don't actualy have to do anything special: the Divination has confirmed that as long as you're in that forest for the next week, you'll find the target (presumably you should keep searching the same way you have been).


I guess I was thinking I had to get this solved in one question. I suppose I could solve it in multiple. But man I reallllllllyyyyy love my gold xD

[Fizban]

This is just a little overstated. It -is- an undeniably great infusion but it's not just "pay xp, cast any spell up to level 4." You have to make a decently difficult UMD check and it has a casting time of 1 minute unless you're willing to spend an action point. You also still have to pay the xp and gold cost of the spell being emulated if it has one.
If you've got time or you're in a bad spot, it's pretty solid. Watch that xp cost though, the craft reserve isn't infinite.
A little, I'll agree- the UMD check is a bit higher than the one you use for crafting, but not that much, and most people do tend to assume the Artificer will make any required UMD check, and the 1 minute prep time is the same for all the buffet infusions.

As for the xp cost, as long as you're not casting it in every slot, you probably won't even notice a difference. Unless your DM is doing some weird xp shenanigans, there's only a small chance you'll actually end up one fight behind on level ups, and then if you do, you'll get a bunch of bonus xp relative to the rest of the party (due to being a lower level) during the next fight. Probably not enough to slingshot, but worth a good number of extra casts before you end up one fight behind again. Going by memory at least, I haven't hashed the numbers recently. But I mention the craft reserve because some people worry about it enough that they *made* the craft reserve.

[Armyguyclaude]

As for the xp cost, as long as you're not casting it in every slot, you probably won't even notice a difference. Unless your DM is doing some weird xp shenanigans, there's only a small chance you'll actually end up one fight behind on level ups, and then if you do, you'll get a bunch of bonus xp relative to the rest of the party (due to being a lower level) during the next fight.

I'm already a level behind. My party wouldn't let me stay dead. Good news is I get bonus xp now and at level 6 I took Item Familiar!